Zone of the Enders 2 PS4 4k-edition

I can’t wait to play Y5 again, great game. Guacamelee is a metroidvania and not a linear action game isn’t it? Haven’t enjoyed a Metroidvania in what seems like forever. All of the ones I’ve tried are just so predictable and/or dull.

Guacamelee is basically a parody of Metroid, but believe you me, it has a fantastic combat system surrounding grapples. Probably my favourite Zangief-simulator after God of War, if you catch my drift.

You can mostly use lots of grapples for different situations in that game, groundpounds, wallslams, ton of fun stuff.

I know ZOE2 grabs but can you specify the exact elements you're looking for?

The grab and throw is pretty standard, but what sets ZOE2 apart, to me, is letting you hold on to an enemy where most games with grabs just do an attack or immediately throw the enemy away.

Yeah that’s what I mean, letting you hold on to enemies for a shield, carry them around as a weapon, etc. Yakuza lets you move with enemies for heat actions but I don’t think there’s really a use for it aside from that.

Shadow of Mordor lets you hold an enemy. You can move around, throw (into others and knocks them down/off cliffs) stab them, drain energy and use as a shield.

Pandora's Tower has a unique system though I don't think you can use enemies as shields or at least not in the same way. You have this chain and can bind enemies in various ways.

Like with these wolf enemies (and probably others of similar size) you can swing them around you and deflect others.

ZOE2 is the only game I know of where you can grab an enemy and actually actually attack WITH them, which is a bit different from throwing them into another enemy. Makes sense I guess since you're piloting a giant robot.

I also don't recall being able to infuse enemies with energy. That seems to be unique to ZOE2.

Warrior Within has that feature to an extent and...so does DMC4 haha! Can't believe I'm saying that.

Forgot about Pandora’s Tower, always wanted to play that one. Who knows if I’ll get around to it. I have the PoP collection, do you recommend just jumping into WW if I were to play it? I played the games when they came out but don’t remember liking the 3rd game much.

The third game isn't that great imo, very weird and wonky design choices mostly thanks to them scrapping the whole game mid-way through iirc. You can just jump into Warrior Within, all you have to know is he fucked with the timeline in the first game. It is probably one of my most beloved games. Simple, but effective. Fun platforming too!

This is on sale now on the PS store. Might grab it and grab the physical Japanese version later.

Do it! I need to get back to this. Will probably do videos on it soon.

Damn, it's 10 bucks. And my wife is teaching now, so I can't use my computer. Yeah I'm going to buy it. Fuck it.

Sweet! 10 bucks is a steal.

Played it for a few hours, really liking it so far. Combat is much improved in the details and the missions far less combersome. Finding Taper being the only low-point of the game so far. Bosses are neat, though gimmicky, curious to see how that holds up on higher settings. Love how the grabs work!

Storywise, I watched the intro cutscene in all its 5+ minute glory which got me extremely excited. Also has a great soundtrack. But the cutscenes outside of combat showcases are just putting me to sleep, mostly skipping them already. The combat really keeps me coming back though, really fantastic in its simpliciticy. Fantastic.

Kind of dislike that you lose found items when a cutscene or transition happens, had hoped you could bring pillars etc. from one scene to another. On the otherhand, I get it. Played until the part where you have to 'hack' a boss to erase her AI. Going from some quick notes I was searching I'm probably already halfway, correct? Game is dropdead gorgeous by the way.

Few questions:

- I assume Gauntlet is absolutely broken powerful? I've been derping with some of the others but Gauntlet just ... wrecks house. Are no-sub weapons a challenge run?
- how do I swap between a regular throw and the spin throw, is it an input difference?
- how many difficulties are there? Started on Normal.
- you can hold the dash button while wielding a weapon or holding a foe, what does this do, increase damage?
- are there any notable differences in versions? Might be interested in the PS2 version.

>Taper

There’s a couple blah sections in the game, but this one is pretty easy and almost a non-issue if you just toss him into a corner in an arena imo. He’ll actually be a good distraction and you can safely get around hitting him by using geyser on enemies.

>cutscenes

Yeah, they’re pretty lame. I honestly don’t even remember what the game is about haha.

>combat simplicity

For sure, it does a lot with a little, tons of details and strats to come up with.

>lose found items

Agreed, kind of sucks. But I think the game is good about giving you these objects in a large majority of encounters(not to mention enemies themselves are makeshift objects, super awesome stuff).

>halfway mark

I’d say that’s accurate. There’s a couple of those blah sections coming up(both of which are very easy and another non-issue once you’re familiar with the game) and then a string of really big badass encounters, and the game just floods you with new weapons.

>gauntlet

It’s certainly really powerful but every sub weapon is godlike when you get familiar with them. Gauntlet is especially broken before higher difficulties though. No subweapons should be possible but I’ve never attempted it, thought about starting with a run to eliminate certain ones(geyser and decoy, mostly).

>regular and spin throw

If I’m correct in understanding your question, a regular throw is just O, a spin throw you have to mash O. You’ve probably picked up on this but the spin itself heavily damages nearby mobs with collisions, very useful.

>difficulties

-Normal
-Hard
-Very Hard
-Super Hard
-Extreme

I’d say biggest jump is Very Hard->Super Hard. You get a major kick in the ass when you get to Mars valley and meet the mummyheads.

>dash button while holding weapon/foe

Yep, it uses meter to power up the object you’re holding. The damage boost is very noticeable, very much recommended for the aforementioned Mars Valley on Extreme.

>noticeable difference in versions

This one keeps a locked frame rate and has some weird extras like the hangar thing(at least I think it’s new). All difficulties past hard were only in the Japanese version as well, I believe. I definitely think the PS4 version is the way to go(PS3 version especially suffers from slowdown).

Really excited that you’re playing it! Glad you’re getting some enjoyment out of it.

>versions
The only PS2 version I have is the Japanese special edition. It included all the extra stuff. Extreme is called EU Extreme in mine I think so I assume earlier version didn't have it.

>extreme difficulty
I remember those robots that punch were the first roadblock. Couldn't just fly up and slash them because they'd just box you to death and the others would throw shockwaves from the rear. I had to constantly back and side dash while throwing partial charge shots. Is there another way?

If it’s the first area with them, there’s objects to grab to use, you can throw them or use the melee attacks which have huge range and tracking. You can bait out their basic attacks and then punish with grabs or blade attacks. I’ll typically bait out attacks and then knock them into the wall, from there using the collision stun to grab it and start a domino effect into the next one.

Of course, once you have subweapons you can do almost anything you want. The first encounter with them is definitely one of those “so hard because you don’t have anything” sections.

This game better on PS4, or PCSX2?

Can’t speak for PCSX2, but it runs and plays almost flawlessly on PS4.

Here's a cool video of survival mode.

Love that use of Wisp.

Finished the game just now and derped around a bit with Hard and Versus. I started with one of the other 'costumes' but found out I OHKO'd the first boss, so I assume all the outfits you have are just super-costumes right?

Surprised by how much I've improved, absolutely wrecked the first area. Knowledge of the combat system and its grabs etc. goes a long way!

Generally really liked it, though some sections were a big drag and felt absolutely nonsensical like avoiding the mines. Destroying the ships from the sky was novel and weird, but cool. The final boss felt really bait > punish to me, but was pretty sweet. Still have no idea what's going on storywise but game looked cool. Would love the ability to just delete the game's video-files so it would skip cutscenes automatically, Japanese voices would also be neat, alas.

> Taper
Meant the part where you have to find him. Really annoying haha!

> sub weapons
Yeah I toyed around with some of the other ones and it really is nuts how good they all are. Wisp is fun as Birdman noted, but I also love Mummy, Halbert and especially the Vector Canon when you can set it up. Geyser is neat too!

> Anubis
I assume both first fights are impossible to win by the way, or is it possible?

> dash
What's faster by the way, holding Dash or mashing dash? Mashing feels fast for whatever reason.

> regional differences
Did some more digging. The added difficulties, music video, added versus-mode characters etc was exclusive to the PAL and Japanese regions - probably because we got them later?

> grabs
Sometimes one of the enemies would grab and basically Izunadrop me, is there a way to escape grabs? I think the game told me once but I forgot.

Really cool just how jam-packed the game is with content by the way. Lots of extra missions, boss rush etc. Really cool!

>'costumes'
They're different versions of the mech but yeah, end of the day they're essentially costumes. I forgot all their properties. One might have infinite subweapons.

>mines
Imagine that without knowledge of Japanese. I eventually had to search online for the Japanese words for directions. I couldn't do it now, but back then I got good enough to blast right through that part.

>Anubis
I'm shocked by how little I remember. Do you have to avoid him or can he hit you as he pleases? I know you can't win either way.

>region
My Japanese version is labeled as 'special edition' with all that stuff so I assume it came out later.

>izuna
Don't recall that. Which enemy?

>costumes

Yeah they’re “super” variants, except for damaged Jehuty, which really handicaps you. The other two change R1 to an instant kill while holding the enemies and turn the damage up to some crazy amount, don’t require meter to block, and have an auto shield to protect from smaller projectiles. Naked Jehuty has infinite meter.

>mine field

Eventually you memorize that part and will just go through as normal, but until then, it’s definitely unnecessary. Not sure if they were trying to recreate the mine field from MGS1 or what.

>final boss

That is my biggest issue with the game, is how many of the bosses boil down to that. There’s some exceptions with loops but by and large a lot of fights want to to punish a specific attack.

>delete game’s video files

I’ve been saying this for years about MGS2, would save minutes off of a playthrough haha.

>subweapons

Should note that Mummy can block any attack in the game, but as you move up in difficulty the meter MELTS when blocking certain attacks. I’m sure you saw but holding it down will use meter to heal you. If you didn’t mess around with Decoy I highly recommend it, you can do different variants(less meter for a less durable one or more meter for one with more health) and then do some stealth spirit bombs.

>Anubis fights impossible

Impossible afaik, could be wrong though.

>which is faster, dashing or mashing

It depends. After you’re dashing for a few seconds the dash gains a ton of speed, which is the fastest. But until then, mashing is a little faster.

>added extras to PAL and Japanese because you got them later

Yeah that’s probably it, the MGS games did the same thing during the PS2 days.

>escape grabs

Unless I’ve missed something, I don’t believe so.

>extra content

I still need to find and play all the missions, speaking of which. Got too caught up in just a bunch of playthroughs.

>Anubis

He can hit you as he pleases, I usually just stand there for a second and let him wail on me.

>which enemy izuna drops

The basic enemy(raptor) does it the most iirc. Clods(the big enemies who suction to you) also do something similar.

Booted this up for a bit last night, had a blast. Such a fun combat system, I can’t get enough of it. I think I’m going to attempt a challenge run soon.

Beat the game just now on Hard, really getting more comfortable, though I notice I keep forgetting I can block which is sitting badly with me. I keep forgetting it exists.

Dabbled more with certain subweapons, really liking Halbert more and more. Just a fantastic room clearer. Whisp is great too. It's also delightful how short the game is, doesn't outstay its welcome and makes the weird sections last less long since they are over in a hot minute anyway.

The bosses are the weakpoint of the game for me, while they allow for some experimentation it is generally just a matter of finding the intended loop or subweapon and rolling with that. Ironically my favourite boss is the giant planet-like ship, pretty fun fight. The section where you blow up the ships with the Vector Canon is epic. I checked out the PS2 version and I'm pretty amazed they managed to get this game to work in the first place.

One question though, how the hell does the ranking system work? I'm absolutely dumbstruck currently haha.

Blocking is really good for some enemies(raptors) and not so good for others(mummyheads and clods). Raptors you can block their basic string and punish with gauntlet, or dash back and in for a blade attack. Note that enemy speed and aggression ramp up with each difficulty, and when you get to extreme raw grabs rarely work, you’ll need to set them up or use them as a punish.

>Halberd

Best tool to deal with cellars. Best to use it as it’s spawning enemies, its defense is lowered during it and you’ll clear the enemies in the process.

>wisp

Can’t recommend this enough for clods. It’s good against mummyheads until you get to Extreme, where the startup can’t compete with how quick their laser attack reaches you.

>short length

Yep, can boot the game up and clear it in a couple hours, fights come at you quick giving you a lot of opportunity to experiment and practice in a short amount of time.

>bosses

Fully agree about them being the weak point. Very one dimensional for the most part. I really like the fights with Viper and Zakan(sp?) but other than that, I just think “okay, let’s get this over with so I can get back to the basic mobs”. The Bahram battle ship section chugged like you wouldn’t believe in the PS2 version, was happy to see it perform so well here. Lot of enemies, good variety, nice spectacle, just a great section.

>ranking system

No clue, honestly. I’ll look into it.

Edit: forgot to mention earlier about the dash. The standard dash isn’t great in terms of speed until it picks up after a few seconds, but if you’re holding an object or enemy and dash into an enemy it’ll knock them back. Not a bad idea to hold an object and plow into an enemy or two before you use it and wear down the durability.

Good note on the grab and ram, didn't think about that one!

> sub weapons
Haven't dived much into Comet of Phalanx yet, any notes on them? Does the Vector Canon have a use at all in other sections?

Scarriest segment for me so far is that area where all the tubes are moving and you are instantly killed if you get squashed, happened more times than I'd care to admit...

> Viper
Fun fight, agreed! I also like the first boss. Not sure what's going on with the boss you need to hack, one time she just commited suicide (entire bar gone in a second). Not sure what happened. Afterwards though, when I played along normally, I got a trophy and Ken was in her bra. I am so confused. Kojima. What are you up to?

> PS2 version chug
Was watching some of BullseyeStrider's footage, excellent stuff, but noticed the massive chug. Also during that 'big battle' near the end.

> zero shift
Such a fun ability.

Also about dash and ram: if you’re dashing while holding a plate you’ll start blocking, good safe way to close the gap on certain enemies.

>phalanx

Great for interrupting attacks and doing a good amount of hitstun. Just one pellet is enough to knock enemies around. It may seem counterintuitive, but it’s an amazing weapon for clods and other big enemies, since it can interrupt them so easily. It also pushes enemies back so you can corner them(phalanx->gauntlet is fantastic for collisions). When the spiders jump their shield vanishes, lowering their defense like crazy, great time to use phalanx and kill them effortlessly. Also in the fight with the AI, when it goes to damage...Viola? A quick phalanx burst will interrupt it and do next to no damage. If you hold the button to harder it’ll concentrate the fire into a smaller cone, good for the aforementioned pushback into collision.

>comet

Good mid to long range guard breaker, nice to use and then immediately dash in for a grab. If you press the button down harder it’ll use more meter but it’ll start bouncing off enemies for multiple hits. Safe, expensive  way to deal with mummyheads and cellars.

>area with all the tubes

That’s my favorite section of the game. Every enemy type, environmental hazards, small arena for collisions, and really challenging. Amazing on NG+ with all the weapons.

>Suicide and ken in her bra

Nani? I don’t understand either haha.

>zero shift

Very fun on NG+. The damage boost you get from the other costumes let’s you instantly telefrag enemies with this.

Edit: forgot to answer about the vector cannon: it’s possible to initiate this in other battles but it’s incredibly hard to actually pull off. You get full armor once the animation is about halfway through but you’re likely to die before you get to attack. I ended up using it at the section right before the area with the tubes because enemies weren’t aggroing to me properly, just wiped them off the map instantly. It’s not practical, but it’s something fun to try to use in certain spots.

> Phalax
Great to know! Should mention that Very Hard is already quite a step up, got destroyed by Collosos early on and Viper nuked me from orbit. Pretty sweet challenge, my hand hurts though haha.

> comet
I keep forgetting there's two versions for most attacks.

> tubes
Its a ton of fun that's for sure, wish the camera was a tad more consistent is all. My favourite section is where you're in that square shaped island and go through the tunnels. Just pure combat bliss.

> ken's bra
Did some googling so others didn't have to. Apparently if you let her burn a bit in the lava after the boss, she takes off her clothes. It's an easter egg. Found that out by complete accident, but hey. Typical horny Kojima.

> zero shift
In the last fight before the boss you're so strong even Zero Shift itself seems to OHKO foes. Fun stuff.

> vector canon
Going to derp around with it on an NG+ down the line, see where I can make it pop.

NOTE: the game has a killer OST.

You probably already noticed but you can do directional strikes up and down on the final hit on the melee string which can send enemies up or down. Like if you're near the ground, slam them down for a nice collision. I've gotten two bosses stuck in this before too.

>hand hurts

This is a game that I have to take breaks from, the speed can give me a headache. Sign of a good time.

>two versions of most attacks

Speaking of which, you can hold onto enemies from a distance with wisp if you keep holding down R2. You can manually knock them into walls and enemies. The little, well, wisp, that connects you to the enemies also damages mobs.

>square shaped island

With all the buildings that you can knock over, and has cellars? Great section.

>camera

The camera and lock-on can be a cluster in the thick of things. It can be hard to target the correct enemy when multiple are coming at you and it auto locks to the wrong target.

>Kojima the perv

Wouldn’t have it any other way. Glad something that goofy found it’s way to this game.

>last fight before the boss

IIRC that’s Jehuty V2, which is one of the more powerful costumes. It’s nice to let us go on a power trip right as the game ends. Kind of dumb that we get F mines at the very end of the game when we’re already OP and most of the high tier enemies are absent, but they’re a fantastic bonus weapon for NG+. Make shift throwable explosive, can use it to catch incoming enemies going for a grab, can place and shoot them from a distance, etc.

>killer OST

I used to have it on my PS3 back in the day and I’d listen to it while doing homework in college. Great stuff. I believe the composer was Norihiko Hibino who did most of the music MGS but doesn’t get any credit for it(because they like to push Harry Greyson-Williams name). Guy is awesome.

>directional strikes

Probably super important in a no subweapons run.Great collision option and grab setup if there’s no wall nearby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlODO0sp1UQ

Pretty interesting way to fight Vic Viper, haven't thought about that type of loop.

> up and down slash
Noted! I used it a few times but never found any good use of it. When I can I do block-cancel after the third hit to keep my combo going, or replace the final hit with the special attack.

> wisp chain slamming enemies into the wall
I have to try that.

> island
There aren't any Cellars in that map I think. I'm talking about this one: https://youtu.be/LO0jJq_HIhw?t=436

> f mines as the last weapon
Generally speaking the way the game gives you weapons is odd. General game-design 101 is having the weapon be useful in the next encounter. But this game gives you a weapon, and then thrusts you into a bossfight where that weapon is useless. You don't use the Vector Canon until an hour later after getting it, feels weirdly out of place.

>Vic loop

Never knew about that! I usually try to hit him into a corner in the ground with the downward slash and do burst blade attacks.

>replace final hit with a special attack

Nothing like a 360, high damage guard breaker to end a combo.

>island

That’s the one I was thinking of, maybe the cellars are only there are on certain difficulties. That, and the following area are my favorites in the game. Lot of objects to grab. I usually will grab a pole here to deal with the mummyheads since it’s the quickest throw in the game iirc(much safer than going for a wisp).

>the way the game gives you weapons is odd

Not only are they given to you at weird times, they’re handed out at a crazy pace. At one point you’ll have got mummy, wisp, halberd and homing missiles in the span of a fight or two, yet the first several encounters of the game you have nothing.

Speaking of mummy, it’s actually missable. Made that mistake on my last Extreme run. I have noticed excessive turtling in this leads to enemies grabbing you a lot.

https://youtu.be/wWnd8FvSQyQ?t=1333

Pretty cool place to use the Vector Cannon! Also, as you mentioned I noticed that the dash gets really fast once you keep it going. Lightning pace. I wonder if you can combine the Decoy with Vector Cannon now that I think about it.

> island
Fantastic area yeah, also like the Canyon just after you got the Gauntlet. Heard there's a secret boss hidden there if you go in at NG+ with the Vector Cannon there.

> weapon selection
I really like how there isn't a single pointless one though, and how most have double functions, like how Geyser heals allies. Pretty sweet.

Finding it hard to play Doom Eternal with this game awaiting me. You playing it again as well now?

>vector cannon

That’s awesome, I’d always wondered if you could gimp spawn points with it if you had certain timing/spacing down.

>lightning pace

Sometimes I’ll grab an object, rev up some speed then charge into a battle and go straight for the harder enemies(usually bigger enemies are in the back). Pretty neat.

>combine vector and decoy

When you initiate decoy you can’t switch subweapons or it’ll vanish. Once it’s out you want to go for grabs or spirit bombs.

>island and canyon

Two hardest sections on Extreme too. I’d say canyon is hardest simply because all you have at that point is gauntlet and geyser. The cellars blocking the two endpoints are just brutal, lot of enemies and not a lot of breathing room. Highly recommend charging up some objects there. Also can’t stress how useful it is to let mummyheads kill others enemies for you. Just grab an enemy, block, and the mummyheads laser will obliterate any enemy you’re holding. Another thing is you can gauntlet raptors just enough to hurt them about halfway, and mummyheads will stop what they’re doing to heal them, making both of them vulnerable. Fantastic use of AI manipulation.

>NG+ canyon

Yep! Did it a while back but can’t really remember it for some reason. Need to go through and find all the ex missions.

>there isn’t a single useless subweapon

This, combined with the grabs and simplicity of the combat, is what drew me to the game. Every subweapon is amazing, especially the ones that don’t deal damage(geyser and decoy). The double use is a great subtle detail as you noted.

NOTE: If you geyser an enemy and grab them to use as a weapon, it’ll geyser any other enemy you hit. The same applies to the wind up on the spin grab too.

>finding it hard to play Doom

Same honestly. I’m getting back into it now. Between this, my next TEW run, and potentially tackling NG, Doom is sort of on the back burner.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but we may have a winner. This might be the one Kojima game I actually enjoyed my time with. Never could get into MGS1, MGS2, MGS:TS, MGS4, MGS5 and ZOE1. Castlevania: LoS was wack too. But this, my god I really enjoy this game. Almost finished VH and derped around in the EX Missions. This game is PACKED with content, love it. Managed to kill a boss with Naked Jehuty in 0.85 seconds haha.

Not sure on Damaged Jehuty though. Tried to fight the first boss with him, but he can't even block, making it hard to even hit the first boss.

> vector
It's basically the Final Flash, love it. Been using it a tad to tinker with mines and such.

> F mines
Used them a bit in the EX Missions, they cost a lot but the damage is absolutely monsterous. Put one down between myself and a raptor, saw him dash into and just vanish into thin air. Poof.

> Extreme
SBK said so as well, Canyon wasn't a big problem currently thanks to Gauntlet, curious to see how it is on Super Hard and Extreme.

> grabs and subs
I was curious why I liked this game so much, while disliking ZOE1, and the subweapons and grab really are the biggest change. Both were just extremely lackluster in the first title and limited your options; it was just dash, hit, dash, hit, block perhaps. Changing sub-weapon usage from ammo to a meter was a hit.

> geyser grab
Noticed this too, another perfect example of subs having more than a single use.

>May have a winner

Hell yeah. I’m pumped seeing someone else get into this game. Now you see why it’s crazy to me that no one really talks about it haha.

>couldn’t get into any other Kojima game

Maybe one day...

>killed a boss with Naked Jehuty in 0.85 seconds

Wow, which boss? When I did my NJ playthrough I got the final boss in about 90 minutes going at a casual pace, you just tear through everything.

>vector to tinker with mines

Oh? Like setting up mines to defend yourself while you set it up?

>F mine damage

It might be the best DPS subweapon, pound for pound. It also has a shit load of uses. I think you can “charge” them up when you grab them, too.

>SH and Extreme

That second battle with a cellar right before finding Taper is also a big early roadblock for these modes. I don’t think you even have Gauntlet at this point either.

>improvements from 1

I’ve never seen a debut be so boring and unimpressive only for its sequel to just absolutely knock it out of the park. We had seen some really big improvements with other games(GoW2, KH2, MGS2), but this was really another level IMO, mostly because of the underwhelming foundation that was there.

>meter

I really love that the block is tied to the meter, and there’s different amounts used for the weaker and stronger variant of each subweapon. It’s rather funny to try to charge up a spirit bomb with no meter only to muster up the equivalent of a water droplet.

> why is no one talking about this
I think mostly because of the botched translation. Tons of people buy Kojima games for the plot and this plot was so dull even I couldn't sit through it, and I always watch all cutscenes the first time through. Perhaps I should give MGS2 another shot and just skip all the cutscenes and go straight to the gameplay haha.

> 0.85
The second one, where you have to hit her with the pipes. Homing shots apparently clipped her immediately and she died haha!

> mines
I set one up just now behind me to hit enemies trying to flank me. Worked like a charm!

> Extreme Cellar before Taper
Know exactly which one you mean, very hard fight that even killed me a few times before on VH. You don't have Geyser as you note. I think what helps most in these fights is to ignore the Cellar, as I think there's a spawn maximum. Take your time with homing shots, whittle the enemies down and then go for the kill on the cellar.

> grabs
One thing that keeps bugging me is enemies ignoring my grab at times, what causes this?

> dull game with fantastic sequel
DMC2 to DMC3 comes to mind for me. Maybe Metal Gear Solid? The first game was fantastic but gameplay-wise I don't recall it being that deep compared to 2 from what I've played.

> meter
One thing I would wish, is that a skill or the meter would change color if you didn't have enough to use it. Think that would go a long way. Not sure how it regenerates either, attacking?

>plot dull for a Kojima game

I believe the plot and core gameplay actually came more from Shuyo Murata, who co-directed and wrote the MGS games. Maybe his writing just lacks the intrigue(not saying Kojima’s writing is good, but they are certainly fun stores with a lot of amazing moments for gameplay).

>skip cutscenes in MGS2 and go for the gameplay

You may get lost but it wouldn’t be a bad idea. Probably the closest thing to this from the team: fast, simple, shitloads of details and viable tools.

>mines for flanking

Very interesting to note, would probably be really useful in the section under the city with the pillars that can crush you.

>ignore cellar

Yep. One great thing you can do is grab the last enemy that’s remaining and use it as a weapon against the cellar. Cellars only spawn enemies when one enemy is left, and since their defense is lowered while spawning it’s a good time for an option like that: get good damage in, kill the enemy you’re holding, and slap around anything spawning.

>enemies ignoring my grabs

Not sure what you mean, like the grab doesn’t connect?

>MGS comes to mind

For sure, the games I listed I meant were the improvements, I guess I didn’t make that clear. MGS2 is definitely leagues above MGS1. I know most fans would get their pitchforks out for me saying that but I can’t help it. The mechanical depth and variety was taken to a level no one had seen in 2001, and it still is unlike anything else. MGS1 in comparison is quite basic and lacking in meaningful content. Plus, I think Ksub would agree that the level of polish in that game is quite staggering.  

>change color

Would certainly be a welcome addition. As for how it regenerates, any kill will regenerate a little meter.

I kinda like the cutscenes in Z.O.E.2! The plot is nothing special and it meanders a bit in the middle, but I think some of the story beats towards the end of the game are really strong, especially with that soundtrack.

Not a fan of skipping cutscenes on a first playthrough, personally, since I prefer to view and evaluate video games holistically. It may sound harsh, but the specific portion of action purists who regularly boast about not caring for video game stories tend to irritate me much in the same way as fancy NewAge players who are only interested in the "experience" and who turn up their noses at each and any lowly gameplay considerations. That's just my two cents, though.

Specifically when it comes to MGS2 though, I can't help but think that mindlessly skipping every cutscene and treating it as a standard action game would be missing out on a lot of what makes the game / the series so special. I agree with Infinity that Kojima's writing isn't particularly good most of the time, but I would also argue that writing isn't the only narrative element worthy of consideration. MGS1/2/3/4 stories, taken as a whole, are absolutely brilliant in my book, despite the numerous awkward bits of writing and dialogue. Because there are also a lot of delicate scripting, fascinating themes and heartfelt moments of character interactions in them, the likes of which you won't find in many other works of genre fiction. I think it'd be a shame to miss out on it, personally.

On the gameplay side of things, I agree that MGS2 is far superior to MGS1, mechanically speaking. Indeed very polished and by far the best iteration of the classic arcade top-down 2D MGS gameplay formula. I also think it has a more interesting story than MGS1, despite the latter's more iconic supporting characters and sense of locale.

What surprised me most was that I skipped the story nearly entirely, which is a first for me as noted. I tend to always give a game's tale a full look as I want to experience the full package at least once. Perhaps it isn't necessarily the story, but the delivery. There are moments, especially in the codec-esque sequences, where there's something tense going on. Dingo's face is awash with rage, but his voice over gives a delivery of the line as if he's in the line to do his groceries.

A character nearly murders his friends, and he goes "Oh okay I guess" in terms of the tone of his voice. It is really off putting. Perhaps the game is better in its original state, really feels like the game had translation issues. I did watch most of the 3d cutscenes as I felt those were far better done, same with the anime scenes.

> cellars only spawn when one enemy is left
Good to know, did not know this. Thought it was just constantly spawning.

> grabs
If I didn't know any better I'd say they were 'teching' my grabs.

> narrative
If there's one thing I always enjoyed in MGS, is its attention to detail and how it uses that to establish things. Snake in MGS4 and how he walks, handles himself, reloads his weapon, you can see he's a pro just by those little details. I feel that the overal message of his games is also pretty interesting and he tends to be quite on the mark (AI, corporations more powerful than a governament, Armstrong, quarantine (ha!)). But writing wise he really could easily cull 80% of his script as there's just so much repitition to me. It's like watching an episode of YuGiOh where Yugi just keeps explaining the same card over and over again.

I'm too dumb for most stories. I'm happy with 'here is bad guy kill him'.

I used to be really into RPG stories. Loved FF7 and Shadow Hearts. I feel like it might be from getting older and just wanting to get down to mechanics.

I might watch cutscenes first time through. It's case by case.

I can understand that part of getting older and just wanting to get to the good stuff. Most videogame plots aren't exactly high prose with very few exceptions which makes it a lot worse. Kind of dig games that allow you to build a plot through gameplay like Metroid Prime or Dark Souls, that works pretty well. But sitting through 5+ minute cutscenes is something I can't put myself to anymore I feel with, strangely, the exception of Yakuza. I don't know why, but that series just has me hooked.

The thing is that something like MGS is more than just the sum of its parts and has some massive pay-off waiting for those willing to sit through the awkward or needlessly wordy parts. And even those parts sometimes provide important bits of characterization and/or world-building.

I understand and partially agree with the argument that gameplay should come first since video games are a primarily interactive medium. I'm also much more willing to overlook a bad story tied to great gameplay than the other way around. But at the same time, there is a lot of work that goes into the story-telling side of things and I don't feel comfortable chucking it out of the window sight unseen as a matter of principle. Plus, some of the greatest game designers I know of (like Kojima, Ueda or Miyazaki) very much construct their work as a combination of both active mechanical and passive story-telling elements. One informs the other, so to speak. Most of the all-time greatest video games I can think of tend to pay close attention to both, with some exceptions of course (F-Zero lol).

Anyway, to each their own. I just couldn't in good conscience recommend anyone play MGS while skipping the cutscenes. :)

It's why I keep struggling with the series I feel. I keep wanting to try it, but keep getting interruptions of a tale. The tale is pretty interesting as noted, and totally agree of the 'sum of its parts', but MGS just has that weird thing surrounding it that completely stops me from getting into the games. As noted, with games like Yakuza or even something like Spec Ops, no problem. Same with Mass Effect, Uncharted, I can sit through those at least on the first time through, even God of War. But something about MGS just irks me and makes it hard for me to get into it, and I feel it might be the overexplaining.

Royta/Raeng wrote:But something about MGS just irks me and makes it hard for me to get into it, and I feel it might be the overexplaining.

That's fair. It's easier for me to sit through that since I'm already familiar with the upcoming pay-off and have grown so attached to the characters and lore over the years, but I can't really fault anybody for getting frustrated by that and not knowing what the point is.

MGS is like an excellent stage screenplay which suffers from bad translation and is being played by good actors but led by an inexperienced theatre director. Quintessential diamond in the rough.

These days I approach my series replay in the same way I do my LotR Extended re-watch. I know what I'm getting into, so I make sure I'm in the correct headspace and have the time and patience for it. Can't rush it. Savor it. Warts and all.

If you ever want to give the series another shot, I'd say MGS3 might be the best way to go. Just make sure you have the time to dive into it properly, watch the in-game tutorials, use headphones, put your phone away, no distraction, the whole thing. Kinda like the advice you gave me for TEW, actually!

That's sound advice. It's funny you mention LOTR Extended, since I had the exact same approach to that as you mentioned. Might be worth locating a month this year where there's nothing of interest and just playing one title dedicated to that month. You mention MGS3, any reason for that? Easiest to get into?

Royta/Raeng wrote:It's funny you mention LOTR Extended, since I had the exact same approach to that as you mentioned.

I know, right? A sumptuous thing like this, you just can't rush. You have to let it breathe on a nice Saturday evening, you don't try to jam it in-between the 16:00 extended family conference call and the 18:30 DIY yoga lesson, or whatever it is people are doing with their free time these days.

The relentless pacing and hyper-active editing techniques in modern movies aimed at viewers with incredibly reduced attention spans probably make the problem worse.

Royta/Raeng wrote:You mention MGS3, any reason for that? Easiest to get into?

Well, yes and no.

It has arguably the most opaque gameplay mechanics in the series. Loads of advanced techniques that require very precise button inputs, sometimes with multiple simultaneous button presses. The basic controls work perfectly well once you're used to it, but they are still based on the old-school top-down 2D structure of the early games, which is unlike anything on the market these days and might require a significant adjustment period. It's also very menu-heavy, even more than RE4 and its constant inventory weapon swap. Although you get used to it after a while.

None of which should be enough to discourage you, of course! But it's not exactly the most accessible game ever made. Bit of a steep learning curve on that one. Thankfully, there are some neat text-and-video tutorials in the main menu that basically explain everything you need to know.

But the story side of things is arguably the opposite. It's a prequel with a mostly completely new set of characters (compared to the MGS1/2 ones) and can definitely be enjoyed without in-depth knowledge of the previous games as a result despite being part of a larger narrative. It has roughly twice the amount of gameplay-per-cutscene as MGS2 does, you can tell they took the criticism to heart and tried to streamline things with this one, for the better I might add. The plot is less complex, less obtuse, more character-driven. Some of the cutscenes are still 20+ mins long of course, but there is a lot more stuff happening in them, most of them are genuinely interesting and rewarding to watch.

Now, all other things being equal, I think the ideal point of entry is to start with MGS1 and then to slowly work your way through the mainline games one by one for the best possible narrative build-up and coherence, but for somebody who was frustrated by all other games in the series already, MGS3 might still be worth trying for all of the above reasons.

It really is a lightning-in-a-bottle type of game for me. If I had to hand-pick half an dozen video games to put in a time capsule and serve as a timeless testimony of the medium, MGS3 would be near the very top of that list. I love MGS1/2/4 as well, but 3 is truly special.

Hey, MGS talk, I’m always down for that! Ksub, once again I agree with basically everything you’re saying. I also wouldn’t recommend people skip the cutscenes on a first playthrough, but if they’re what’s actively stopping someone from enjoying the gameplay, then I could see maybe doing it. And then if someone really gets into the mechanics, they can give the story a shot. It would definitely tamper with the impact of a first playthrough, but everyone handles things differently. I was only 9 years old when I first played MGS2 and didn’t understand anything that was going on, fast forward to the HD collection coming out, and I finally re-watched the cutscenes, and it all clicked. I ended up liking the gameplay, that I had played to death for the last decade, even more. 

Also agree about MGS3(funny you mention lightning in a bottle, I was talking to my friend about a hypothetical MGS3 remake while discussing the RE4 remake and I literally said “that would be a terrible idea, game is the definition of lighting in a bottle. Haha!). It has a(sort of) self-contained story, it has the highest gameplay to story ratio(aside from 5), tons of variety, mechanics, tools, details, difficulties, the whole thing. Great ending too. It’s still wordy and has its awkward moments, but there’s less of it than the other games(especially 4). The controls definitely will take some getting used to, if you play the Subsistence version is has a controllable 3D camera but lacks the “normal” controls we see in other TPS, so it will feel off at first. But the game truly has mechanical depth and viability no other game in the series has when you get technical with it(aside from weapons, that goes to 4)and that’s saying a lot. Some of the bosses are also about the best I’ve ever seen.

>teching grabs

I don’t know about teching but when you get into the final two difficulties enemies will frequently interrupt your raw grabs with counter hits. Will need to start setting them up.

I like that they made enemies able to block Gauntlet, it keeps Comet from becoming redundant. Also forgot how good collisions are for the fight with Nephtis(the one with the Clods).

Loved MGS3. The atmosphere of the jungle was amazing.

Do you guys like the TPS camera added in Subsistance?