A Mentally Challenged Man's Souls Retrospective: Prepare For Cynicism Edition

reinstated, rebooted, re-challenged

You're doing a whole retrospective on Souls? I'm down. So I currently have access to DS1 (prepare to die, performance modded), DeS on PS3... And that's it. My DS2 iso is missing, and it wasn't scholar of the 1st sin anyway, so it sounds like I dodged a bullet from what you're saying.

Dark Souls takes what, 30 hours to beat? Play 1 hour a day, and 30 days from now it's the 1 year anniversary of ER, which I expect to have another 30% sale, and was when I said I'd get it anyway. Demon's is 24h. I restarted DS1 for a fresh perspective, since it's been years since I played it. I'll try to do an hour for both every day and comment on what's important.

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>SOTFS ruined DS2

I've definitely come round on my idea of "fixing" old games, especially with game preservation. The obvious example is NG2 to NGΣ2 (which I'd be enjoying alongside Birdman right now, but the bloody thing isn't working for me on Xenia, master or canary), but DMC4SE also brought about some changes to the base game. At the end of the day, the game is play-tested, and the devs decide that it's good enough, so it's good enough for me. No need to George Lucas the hell out of it, unless it's objectively broken, like Bayo's torture attack on the big dog, or the double ora-ora qte with Jeanne.

I went with the Pyromancer, but there was no need, as I can just farm fire bombs at the Undead Burg, and the fireball range, accuracy and windup suck. Still, the grinding for souls and humanity is probably what made me stop to begin with. A spear makes things easy, but a 2-handed Black Knight sword makes everything 1-shot-ville, including the Taurus Demon with the plunging trick. I obviously skipped the drake sword on my first playthrough, but I read it takes anywhere from 15-500 arrows to take off its tail, you can't upgrade it, and its R2 destroys its durability, so I stuck to the Black Knight sword. Before I got it, I was poking this big guy with a club below the Taurus fight, exploiting his aggro at a doorway. Took ages because I had a spear doing 16 damage, then I got bored and greedy, and got tagged. Lost all my humanity, and got easily ganked by fodder, losing it all.

DSFix is supposed to have a save backup feature, but it clearly works as well as Xenia. Boss HP and equipment UI are also borked. There's no borderless fullscreen, so switching tabs is super awkward. Call it an endorsement of the Remaster. I almost got out the cheat engine to restore my old stats, then I remembered it was a virus, so I just backstabbed and grinded my way back. Took 5 or 6 hits to kill the guy with the black knight sword, and all I got was a lousy ring. Now at a forest with a bonfire hidden by an illusory wall, one of my least favourite gimmicks. I suspect online features would've left a bloodstain there, but all multiplayer games and features have a shelf life, so games should be built around that.

>He talks about them embracing their hype as "hardcore" games in SOTFS

Indeed. I think "prepare to die" is misleading. When you die in Bayo, you respawn at full health. You don't take more damage, lose XP and turn into a zombie if you're not one already. The longer you stay alive, the more you dominate what's in front of you. DeS punishes you even more for dying with world tendency. Maybe the "expensiveness" of life is what makes DS and exploration scary.

DMC1 can also be quite punishing. No level select = no grinding, and you have to beat normal, then hard, to unlock and grind normal again. So if you miss farming Phantom with Air Raid on Mission 4, you're SOL. Then you're weighing up new moves vs devil stars and yellow orbs, you hit Nightmare or some other boss, and you get into a death spiral where you can't even finish the game on that save. So yeah, prepare to die, but don't actually do it. Learn where the traps are, and who you can and can't bully, but don't actually punch the biggest guy in prison and call what happens next a learning experience.

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> DS2
It's a game that needs to be played to be enjoyed (sorry) hahah. If you're barely through the tutorial zone you tend to just see the dull side. The beauty is in how open it is (you can basically choose any which zone to go to at will), with a lot of flexibility in weapons and builds and some great encounters and bosses along the way. Is it 'hardcore extreme'? Perhaps. Especially the starter zone got some chance boosts with powerful foes. NG+ is even more extreme, with red phantom NPCs popping up everywhere, flanking you etc. Sorry to hear it wasn't for you.

> DS3
Had a feeling you'd prefer this one, it's basically Elden Ring without any of the added fluff and running around. For me it is (obviously) the worst one haha. It has nothing that I look for in Souls. It's bosses are drab repeats. It's extreeeemeeely lineair, most builds/weapons are locked behind late-game progression etc. What I always enjoyed about DeS and DS1 is that, if you wanted to replay, you could generally get your build ready in about 30 mins to a degree since the game was so open-ended and flexible (esp with masterkey in DS1). Here it can be 20 hours.

> online
DS2 tried to push covenants more, and their interactions, but they were just a mess still. I still think the idea has merrit but it was always just too obscure and barely worked. If they;r'e going to do it again I hope they take a look at Nioh on how to handle online.

Note that in DS1, humanity and human form increased your drop-% by a metric ton, allowing for far better/faster drops.

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Oh shit, I'm in trouble now hahaha

> DS3
I honestly don't remember a lot about that game tbh. I know the zones. I know the bosses. But a lot of the mechanical stuff since that game really came and went for me. Bought it launch day, super excited, found it was extremely lineair and every boss was the same tired "learn pattern, dodge, punish, repeat" affair, beat it, did NG+, tried restarting afterwards and just zoned out so hard it became the first Souls game I sold.

I will noted I liked the Flasks system and the *idea* of the weapon-skills. In general they were just "bonus damage moves" without much utility to them, which was exactly what the combat was missing so I'd hoped I'd find it here. I feel Elden Ring did this a lot better, with some of them being more interesting than "now you do a big charge up move for more numbers damage yay isn't this cool".

> Pontif
IIRC he was supposed to be the final boss originally, which shows in his moveset. He's absolutely designed to be this killer of bad habits. Though he is also a boss of much discussion as he's the first one to have an unreactable attack. If you're close you cannot dodge it as it's a 5(?) frame stab attack with his offhand dagger. While DS2 already had some unfair shit (like the golem behind the bars, which you of course know about since you played that game pretty far, right???? : - P ) this was the firs time it was really done in a big setting.

> does the combat design improve
Honestly, it does. Scholars gets a lot of revisionist love for its DLC areas, but you need to be a bit set to get there. It has some weird zones like the shipyward which are neat and some zones that are absolutely an experience to see (both in the sense of "oh man they really put this in huh" and "damn, that's quite balsey") like the Gutter and Black Gulch. I think what I really appreciate about it is that it feels more daring in some cases. They really just made Blighttown again, but a 100 times worse and with death traps and complete darkness, ton of hidden items, poison and a fucking timer - I can't help but respect that.

I still feel in terms of level design, both in its looping nature, encounter design and puzzle design - Brume Tower is the highlight of the series. You've got a spiraling tower where you have statues that constantly heal enemies that can only be destroyed with hidden items. You're constantly on the run from healing enemies, trying to find these hidden treasures, while sometimes going all out trying to kill them. There's also a lot of traps that you can use to gimp fights in your favour which is neat. The tower loops in a fantastic maner, looks great too. It is also by far the hardest DLC and has the two hardest bosses in the series. Fume Knight has the highest kill% according to FromSoft and he's really a old-sk00l hard boss that just has a ton to him.

> hardcore extreme
I honestly don't recall it being that bad. There are some instances on NG+ that are a bit bonkers, like bosses just spawning out of nowhere in a level to fuck you up (again, I respect it). But outside of the white-troll being a bit more common at the start, nothing really comes to my mind.

> NG+ focus
Yeah I never liked NG+, that's absolutely true. The scaling is generally not nearly good enough to keep the difficulty enticing for me. I do have an NG+40ish character in Demon's Souls, but that was more because the game was new and I just loved playing it since it was so unique (and limited save files).

I far more prefer doing a replay with new weapons, builds, setups etc. And DeS, DS1 and DS2S are the only games that really allow for that. Elden Ring does too in a sense, but you really have to run around for ages and I hate that. I also found Elden Ring really hard to 'balance' if you get me. Had this issue in Nioh as well, where you're either overshooting your build or undershooting - both resulting in a boring experience. You're either absolutely stomping a boss, or they're super tanky, it's rarely a tense balanced fight.

> drab repeat bosses in DS3
Mostly in terms of designs. There isn't really any boss that stands out in my mind that wasn't just either:
a) learn pattern, dodge pattern, punish
b) hit shiny thing of big monster

Some did this vastly better than others mind you. The hidden super boss was fantastic, though I admit I was also getting a bit tired of "AND NOW MY FINAL FORM" of most bosses having multiple phases and whatnot.

> DLC
Note, I've never touched the DS3 DLC, so I'm curious to hear takes on that.

> ratlord
A bit busted sadly. You basically summoned a player in a deathtrap, it was trolling, but it got tired fast. You'd basically be waiting for a player with like 6 NPC helpers at your side and poison rats and traps and they'd be dead.

> Covenants
Souls tends to bite itself in the bum with its vague method of communication. I get that it was originally the appeal, but with 99% of the player base just straight up using guides, I feel it'd be a bit nicer to just have things be spelled out anyway. Have Covenants clearly communicate what they're for, how they work, and by god don't limit them to a ring usage and don't cancel out PVP with other factions. DS2's idea worked on paper, but when your player base is about 1 million, split between 2 consoles, and you then split them again through covenants and regions...you're not going to get many matches going.

> bosses in armor
You mean in a literal sense or in the sense that they have hyper-armor to tank hits? I've never heard the former, so I assume its the latter. In which case: play better, is my take on those ciritisms. Many bosses have hidden weaknesses, or specific stagger values that need to be met. Also felt it was a nice way to reward users of strong weapons.

This is generally my 'flaw', I vastly prefer a game that is 50% absolute horseshit and 50% inspired genius than 100% decent. And DS2 provides that.

Ya boy made another DS2 video. The Al Gore Rhythm picked up his last DS2 video, and now he has to dance to it. It's DS2 all the time, baby. See, I'd hate to have a YT channel, make a video on a game I don't like, or some random Bratz licensed game, and be forced to make that forever or have the channel die.

He now says SOTFS is an easy game, just very punishing. You can't run past enemies, and have to kill everyone while rushing to the boss, making it boring. This was after complaints on his last video said he was underlevelled from running past mobs, which he claimed was actually a choice.

Seems the correct version of DS2 to buy is "neither".



Anyway, thoughts on Sekiro? It looked like an action fan's dream to me, but what I'm reading from the forum is: bad stealth, underused mechanics (mash R1/L1 to win) and modern sensibilities (I'm assuming of the "cinematic experience" kind).

At release, I heard Souls veterans complain that they couldn't cheese enemies or turtle behind a shield, and had to parry (usually reworded as "it lacks variety in dealing with enemies"). So what I'm hearing is: not actiony enough for the action crowd, not soulsy enough for the souls crowd.

It looked good to me, but I could see the Simon Says nature of combat being an issue. Like the final boss, I wouldn't know to jump and catch his lightning without watching it in a video (although I suppose the big dragon teaches you earlier.) I prefer bosses with many viable counters, like Credo and Vergil, but it seems Sekiro is rigid about which attacks to Jump/Parry/Mikiri.

Like all Activision games, it's very resistant to sales. Never gone below 50% on Steam, with no keyshops, and now it looks like 75% is a fairer price. Plus paying for Activision, EGS or the Windows Store, yuck.

Thoughts on this weapon wheel mod making it better?



Finally, has anyone played "1.0" or "Inner" Malenia? Seems they massively nerfed her before the game was released. She's more aggressive, blocks attacks, does Waterfowl Dance at any HP and Classic Waterfowl Dance (datamined last year) where she'd normally do her normal one.



Seems the response is to focus on staggering her, so cheese strats aren't eliminated, only altered. Phase 1 looks maybe 20-50% stronger, not quite Crazy/GMD Dante from 4. Phase 2 barely changed anything, just CWD and Scarlet Aeonia Spam.



Looks quite fun, now that Malenia has been figured out.

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>killing npc increased prices by 20%
Good to see a business mindset flourishing in the hellscape that is Dark Souls.

Can confirm, Yahtzee started the "dudes in armor" meme. Also complained about copy-pasted Sif and Quelaag bosses.

Gamersgate.com still sells vanilla DS2 keys (allegedly - won't know if they're mixed up with Scholar unless someone buys). It's full price, and has a ROW region-lock, but it's not an absurd price compared to other delisted games like Transformers Devastation ($300 - might as well buy it 2nd hand with a console at that point).

DS3 is in that category of games that used to get deep discounts, but doesn't anymore as the devs moved on. There seem to be some outliers, so going off the Steam history alone, it seems the lowest it went was 75% off, until Elden Ring came out. Given its free DLC, I assume they want high retention, and a competing (and you say better) game doesn't help that.

Barring a bundle, it could be a while before DS3 hits a sensible price for how long it's been out. Meanwhile, I'm willing to bet that ER goes on sale on Feb 25th for 30% or more (or sooner, 25th is a Saturday, and Steam's mystery fest starts on the 20th.) i don't think DS3 will hit 75% off till the Spring Sale, and even then I'm sceptical, and the days of 85+% off seem over.

Off-topic, Blighttown has been conquered. What an absolutely awful place, but at least Quelaag is a nice refresher. Almost like an apology given how easy she is.

> He now says SOTFS is an easy game, just very punishing. You can't run past enemies, and have to kill everyone while rushing to the boss, making it boring. This was after complaints on his last video said he was underlevelled from running past mobs, which he claimed was actually a choice.

I mean this is just blatantly false. You can definitely run past enemies, the only issue is that you have no i.frames when opening a fog-gate. You can easily run past them though and go into a boss since you're so much faster.

> YTer cursed to play the same niche game over and over since it is now his personality
Sounds like Wings of Redemption and UnderTheRottenMayo all over again.

> Anyway, thoughts on Sekiro? It looked like an action fan's dream to me, but what I'm reading from the forum is: bad stealth, underused mechanics (mash R1/L1 to win) and modern sensibilities
Great ideas held back by Souls sensabilities. You literally feel that the game is yanking at its Souls-related chains, wanting to be free. It is a game that vastly benefits from patches being installed, as in the original release just mashing parry (yes, mashing) would see you all the way through to the end with some basic pattern memorization.
The patches buffed all subweapons and special attacks, but in souls fashion you can still only use 1 attack and 3 sub weapons, the game would've been so much better if it used a xbox360-era design of "just give you all the tools" (which fans modded in).

Bosses are also a bit TOO focused on pattern memorization. This leads to bosses initially being a massive slog to learn, while after having been learned are a complete joke. This is why it is often called 'Simon Says Sekiro" for example. See red light, press red button.

Regular combat is also far too uninteresting, with enemies dying too fast and generaly being dumb, while the combat is also not made for multi-man. Stealth in general as noted isn't great either. You know you fucked up when MGR:R did stealth better.

So yeah, it's an interesting game, but they really didn't give it their all with it imo and played it too safe, which holds it back.

> dodge+punish bosses
It's more a container for me, as in bosses that have nothing more to them. I think the Tower Knight is a good example, there's just a LITTLE bit more to him than learning his moveset and hitting him, as you have shockwaves and also arches to content with. Or how the Adjudicator, despite being dogshit, at least has multiple ways to engage him (from above, attack the crow dirrectly, or below, hit the cleaver to down him). Or even the freak'n Gutter boss, which as a hidden weakness in his little cage.

Meanwhile most DS3 bosses to me felt like they were all the same in that regard, there wasn't really a unique thing that made them stand out mechanically. Even the shittiest DS2 boss had something strange to it, not to mention DS1 and Demon's where every boss was basically wholly unique. There wasn't a single boss in Dark Souls that was 'normal' that I can think of that didn't have at least some little unique quirk or attack or ally to them.

I think the only one that comes to mind, ironically, is Artorias from the DLC, which is the most popular and thus set the trend going forward.

> armoured enemies
I feel that's just wrong tbh. Dark Souls 2 has a lot of bosses, also optional ones, that are many types of animals, giants and whatnot. Feel that's a dumb argument and don't agree with it at all. I quickly did a check and out of the 32 bosses, about 15 are armoured dudes. So about half, and out of those 15, 5 are in the DLC packs.

> gulch
Oh don't get me wrong it's an absolutely horrid place and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but at least it's unique. Gutter is really enjoyable if you play it as intended (use the torch to light your way).

Brum Tower really needs to be played though. It really pushes what Souls does in terms of level design.

I mean you can make the same castle stage 10 times in a row but eventually it all just blends to me. Everyone was praising Stormwind... Stormveil Castle. To me it was something I had already played since 2009 and frankly am tired of.

Granted being 'different than a tried and tested boring design' isn't praise by itself, but really, Brume Tower is solid. It is hated by redditors though, since it's so hard (definitely the hardest zone in the series I feel).

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> thinks stormveil is gods gift to humanity
You sure you'd not rather be on Reddit hahaha? You'll find more agreable sorts there. Without peaking in other topics (no cheating bruv), what do you think my favourite dungeon/area was in Elden Ring? I legit have one so it's no trick.

And yeah regarding stormveil, I mean as I mentioned it's just been there done that. If you're going to make a new game, make a new game. Either do new things or really elevate old ideas (i.e. how 5-2 became Blighttown, interesting twist). This is generally my thinking for sequels. These Souls games tend to feel more like big expansion packs (esp when you count the massive amount of reused items in DS3). Stormveil gave me nothing new. Was just a shitty Boletaria. It's generally why I prefer games like Dark Souls (re imaginging) NG2 (old game but totally different in direction) etc.

> running past enemies
You do know you can sprint in these games, right? You write the words but I literally cannot imagine this being the case. Only boss where I had this issue was that charriot boss from time to time.

> badass hidden DS3 boss
It's that dragon god guy, rides a dragon, then you fight him one on one. Stormking , storm rider or someshit? Super epic and cool to finally fight one of the 'gods' at full power since most were hollow shells when we killed them in previous games. It's a straight up fight but it's a damned good one.

> barrel glitch
Legit first time I've heard of it.

> DS3 gimmick fights
> waah waah Roy doesn't like them
> Tower knight is ass
Tower Knight is an example bruv. Here, let me write them all down so your reddit0r brain can comprehend the glory of God's design:
Tower Knight: read previous
Penatrating boy: straight up fight, but with the twist that you can find an NPC who has a grudge against him that will help you in the fight.
Old grey dude: straight up fight, but has the (serieswide) unique ability to drain your levels
spider: is more about 'getting to him' than actually fighting him (up close he's a chump)
flamelurker: gains agressionboost at half health
3-1 boss (not going to google those shitty names): traps and clones
Dragon God: meh, cinematic garbage
Maneaters: two enemies with the ability to self buff, which you can disable by destroying their tails (fun little side gimmick).
Old Monk: literal online boss fight, super unique, never been recaptured or done better.
4-1: read previous
4-2: straight up fight, but he's blind, so you can either stand still to avoid him or use the thiefs ring which is a neat change
4-3: giant blade goes boom
5-1: shitty boss with massive fire weakness
5-2 shitty boss with massive fire weakness
5-3 arguably the most well crafted 'storyboss' in the series

You can do this with DS1 bosses too to a regard
stray demon: generally shitty, but at least is able to be killed early and has that jump attack gimmick
Taurus demon: very unique arena (thin line), can be ringed out, archers, towers - just a unique little fight
Moonlight butterfly: aaaaaassssssss
Gargoyles: surprised to get two bosses instead of 1
That demon with his dogs: it's a demon, but he's got dogs
Qualaag: has unique weakness when hitting her own body instead of the spider, and leaves lava pools around.
Giant Vagina Dragon: straight up fight, but is tied to exploration (if you don't explore, he'll be buffed and there's magic coming your way).
Sif: straight up fight
Iron Golem: straight up, with ring-out potential and tied to exploration (bombs)
Priscilla: invisible boss, otherwise straight up.
Ornstein: straight up boss, with the twist that who you kill first influences phase 2 and your rewards.
Gwyndolin: straight up
Pinwheel: aaaasssssssss
Nito: aaaassssssss, though at least somethings tied into aggro and such but still asssss
Seath: gimmick of the gimmicks, meh
Four Kings: literal DPS race, pretty standout (sick OST too)
Ceaseless: kinda ass, but you can ring him out which is neat.
All the bosses in fire area: assssssss
Gwyn: straight up fight

Now let's go to the dlc:
Guardian: straight up fight
Artorias: straight up fight with the option to stop his buff
Kalameet: straight up fight
Manus: straight up fight

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm

If we grab DS3 it's just:
straight up fight
straight up fight
unqiue wacky fight where the floor breaks
straight up fight where she teleports around a bit
straight up fight but when he dies another one appears
straight up fight but when he dies another one appears
shitty dragon god ripoff (impressive)
straight up fight
straight up fight
big sword goes boom, again
straight up fight
straight up fight
straight up fight with some daemon birds
straight up fight
straight up fight
straight up fight, but you have to kill the little prince first (this one is solid)
shitty dragon god ripoff (impressive)
straight up fight, but actually good
straight up fucking fight god end me

DS2 also had this mind you, which is why it sucks doubly so. And people keep wanking it because they dislike creative designs and just want to roll around naked with a buster-sword. Which I think is why everyone enjoys Fume Knight to a degree. He's generally just a straight up brawl, but if you don't explore he's impossible (healing factor). So both normies and asswipes like me can enjoy him.

But in general I agree DS3 bosses are better designed, but they're also waaaaaay less interesting to me and less memorable. I feel Artorias is a stand-out in Dark Souls 1 because he's a straight up fight, in a sea of unique ones. If Artorias had been in DS3 it'd just be 'another brawl'.

You gonna play Bloodborne? That game is fantastic so I'm curious to hear your take on it.

This will be an interesting read.

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Ah, yeah I think I might've gone too far haha, I meant my stuff in the friendly bro-banter we were doing but probablllllly took it too far going by your reply. So I apologize! Didn't mean any offence and i'm sorry if you didn't feel welcome.

Now with the mushy stuff out of the way:



> legit changed his avatar
I will never admit how I saw this while eating noodles with my in-laws and choked on them laughing. Well played.

> I am more suited for reddit
I never claimed otherwise. I'm a social media and karma whore. Hell it's how I get most of my clients these days (sadly). Even got a Linkedin and an Instagram. No Onlyfans tho (sorry, maybe one day).

> didn't click on a GoW visual novel subreddit
I'm pretty confident they'd have way more (active) users than here. Don't forget that at least 300 users are bots that I purge per year.

> 4 subs
Low blow man, it's a niche as it is, I'm just one guy doing my best here without selling my soul to the "Hey guys it's me gameroy here, so I played this action game for 20 minutes here's my initial thoughts in a 4 hour review please continue to pay me' style of living.

> my favourite area
It was the Lyendell Sewers. I loved that place. Smelled like shit but it was so cool once you got to go INTO those pipes. Thought that was brilliant. First you sort of go on them, working your way down, using them as a platform in what's basically a maze. And THEN you go in the pipes where there's another maze within that maze. Felt that was a super unique leveldesign layout that I've legit never seen before and it was really fun to explore.

> favourite boss
Ironically that was Rahdan. Very memorable going at such a giant guy with an army, he was super cool doing under leveled like that. Mechanically it wasn't too interesting I agree, but it was memorable. When doing him on replays I liked him a lot less since he'd just melt. In terms of actual combat I enjoyed Hoarah Loux a lot. Lot's of enviromental moves, cool as fuck SPD-emergency, really fun when going online too since his moves work better against many targets. It's a shame he dies so fast. Also quite liked that openworld Nail(?) boss, that commander. That was really unique, just walking around and BAM boss wait wat.

> made you laugh
;D

> DeS
They tend to note "your favourite Souls game is your first one, your least favourite the last one", so I'm curious if that axiom holds up for you too. I fear Demon's Souls will feel very 'been there, done that', as basically all of its enemies, traps, bosses and items have been re-used in some form or fashion in later entries, some many times. When we first met Patches we though "oh damn there's treasure there? Awesome!". Now we see him and it's "aight here we go again". The Tendency System might be interesting, but it's been so documented at this point and it doesn't really shine until NG+. The game also has no respec, but it's easier to multiclass since a lot of things are lower in req. In general I'll probably feel like playing some sort of deranged test-build.

> PS5 version
You're not missing much. It in general just removed all the wacky charm from the visuals, that's it. Otherwise it's the same game. I'm a bit sad about that since DeS was really unfinished and one entire world was cut, so I'd hoped they would re-add that (even as DLC possibly), but it never happened.
The upside of the new version is having a more active online (with all the 3 PS5 users left alive) and the new content. For example they added...eh.

Eh.

Oh eh.

No eh.

Yeah there's none. There's one extremely hidden secret that takes ages to unlock. Otherwise the game is identical. Didn't even bother to fix some lore inconsistencies or rebalance some weapons that were ass.

> I thought this was stinger


The only gaming related "we don't talk about that" thing around these parts is Metroid: Other M.

> Bloodborne
IMO it's the best one, though also in some ways the worst for some. You have a lot less variety in gameplay, it's way more razorfocused. This leads to the game being way better designed (since the devs. obviously knew what you could do and could account for that). Bosses are all highlights, imo if you're making a top 20 best Fromsoft boss list more than half are in this game. Epic, challenging, fucked up and memorable (and gimmicks! gotta have those if only it had PSmove support..)

I think (going by your posts) you'll find the lack of variety and builds very disappointing. You've generally got a choice between dodge focused melee build and dodge focused melee build with a slower weapon. There's a bit more nuance obv. but it's not much. The DLC is fantastic too btw, absolute banger with arguably a boss that feels like it somehow drifted off of the Ninja Gaiden 2 dev table onto the Fromsoft one. Crazy shit. DLC also adds a BIT more magic-usage.

My only two tips to you is to try and avoid over-relying on gun-parries. They're extremely powerful and if you get the timing down you can legit play the entire game just that way, taking a lot of fun away. Also the damage of your parry-attack is strangely tied to DEX. If you level DEX, your damage can legit go to the point where a single Parry deals 80%+ damage to a boss which is a bit overdone.

> penatrator
Never said he was good! But it was pretty unique at the time since you couldn't NPC-summon yet. It being tied to a sidequest was pretty cool.

> shitty fire weakness boss
I literally call him shitty come on

> bell gargoyles in DS3
I probably wouldn't shit on them as my bum would've been empty after the dump I took on their DS2 version (yeah, they're in there). I do KINDA like that one since it plays with your expectations. You see one, and you think "aight here comes number 2". And it does. And then there's number 3. And 4. And 5. And 6 and oh god I gotta kill them asap before I'm outnumbered. It's a cute "we know you know, so fuck you" moment but it's still a bit like "jesus you guys really threw that in there huh".

> fools idol/crystal bitch
One is tied to exploration, lays traps in a pretty tight enviroment - the other is just a witch in a wide open area and also a re-used concept. If you'd flip them it's a re-used concept but elevated.

> pontiff
I admit I forgot about his multiform due to my beastly DPS (and I simply forgot).

> soulless cinder
I legit wanted it to end at that point. I felt it was cool visually that he would copy your moves and later be a Gwyn-clone since he's fighting like all the previous hosts, but again it really didn't have that 'one thing'. Hell even original Gwyn was unique in that you could parry him, which you couldn't do to pretty much any boss in that game. Enfin, I think I've made MY stance on the bosses clear and why it's MY opinion.

> have i played scholar recently
HELLLL YEA---no. But yeah as noted, I remember it being a big topic at the time too and there's a reason they changed it back, but I legit only remember it being the case with Charriot for me. Or I didn't die a lot (since Charriot is so trial&error).

> souls bosses
As noted, DS3 bosses are better, but in a vaccume.
I've been playing a lot of Pokemon lately since I'm on holiday, so it's been on my mind and that's where the following comparison comes from: in Pkmn you have to beat Gyms, each has a leader and they're all of different types. Dark Souls 3 is to me if it has the best gym fights, but they're all fire-types. It's great but jesus give me some variety. When I play Demon's or Dark1, in general I can look forward(ish) to the boss fights even if they aren't that great. Since they offer something new, a different jibe, experience, playstyle or w/e. With Dark Souls 3 after each boss fight the next boss fight gives me more a 'here we go again' feeling. I hate to quote Matthewmathosis since that's such a "hey I can't talk for myself lemme have that youtuber do it for me" moment, but he did word it better. He was talking about the Dancer boss in DS3 and noted it was probably the best in the series in his opinion, but because it was in a game that was filled with bosses just like it, he kinda just forgot about it and didn't really care for it.

I noticed this more when I was listing the bosses because I could note down all the bosses in DeS and Dark1 from the top of my head, while with DS3 I legit had to grab a shitty IGN article to go further than "fantastic boss against guy on dragon" and "that tree guy where you fall down" (I really enjoyed that one).

> but that's just you
Brah I assume that was clear? I'm not gonna put an IMO after every sentence come on. I'm a literal gaming-blogger.

> why keep playing
DS3 is where it set in for me. I hated DS2 vanilla and didn't play Scholar until a few years ago, so at the time I was hopeful that DS3 would 'rekindle' (barf) my passion. Instead I found a lot of rethreads again. Like I understand reusing Patches in Dark Souls 1 since it was kinda a soft reboot since DeS was PS3 locked (and even region locked for a long time), same with a lot of traps and boss designs. You mentioned Stormveil and that's a good one. One of the highlights of that dungeon, imo (oh shit there we go, the safety is on), that you can choose to just completely skip it. From the start you can just say "FUCK IT, open the gate" and be confronted with a bullethell game with the end of the dungeon as your reward. That's great! If they hadn't done that like 2-3 times before. This isn't too bad but I generally really feel the 'idea box' is running super low at Fromsoftware when it comes to traps and design with more and more re-use per entry, even in Sekiro which I'd hoped would be a fresh thing (and also why I love BB since it throws the rulebook to the wind again).

Regarding Elden Ring, yeah I legit fell for the marketing. I was super done with Souls, especially after Bloodborne mixed it up so well and it was clear I couldn't go back. The original leaks and some teasers did show me something interesting and unique, so I decided to buy it, but...I didn't watch anything. No trailers, no gameplay (not that I remember). So I booted it up expecting this funky new game by Fromsoft with an open world (pretty excited about that, since I love their leveldesigners and artdesigners in general), only to get Dark Souls 4: Open World. Once that sank in depression hit and I'm currently fighting a heroin addiction to cope with the loss of a loved franchise.

Was especially let down by the 'chalice-esque' dungeons. Just randomly slapping two high end enemies together as a dual-boss was the type of shitty design I'd hoped we left in DS2.

Should note I genuinely (sadly) love the gameplay(potential) of the series. I love how insanely bloated it is with options (sometimes too much though) and its worldbuilding, leveldesign, artdesign. It just set such a high standard of "we don't follow the rules" at first with wacky mechanics, unique traps and bosses and slowly started to erode that away. I do wish the games made it easier to flipflop between builds (esp. in the older games) since the games are so fun to experiment with, but less so when there's a 40 hour gameplay prerequisite to doing a run of a specific build. My favourite think about Dark1 is just doing a new run, going in a wacky route and using a build I haven't done before, it's a game that's always fresh for me.

Have you played Kingdom Hearts at any point? Because that game really handles builds and how to swap between them so well, I really hope Souls goes that route at some point (it never will tho).

> Stormveil
You mention the verticality but I don't see it other than that it is indeed a dungeon with multiple floors, they don't really interact with each other. The only place you sorta do that is on that sidewall with all the hidden items in the wallcracks outside (cool point, gotta give it credit).

Why I felt it was a shitty Bolletaria, the essay: they're both castles and I wanted to rile you. The. End.

Jokes aside: in general they share the same goal: first big real dungeon. Bitches can say "but you can go out of order if you know about that little crack behind" but honestly for 99%, it is the first.
Both are a sprawling castle where you have to go UP, you go along the side where there's more danger, you go indoors where areas are more crooked and narrow. Some rooms are quite literally reused in their design (just made bigger in ER since it wasn't made by 5 people and a stoner), which is fine but it is noticable. Both use a lot of the same traps (i.e. the guy standing above you throwing fire pots while flanking you) and same tricks (fighting soldiers on rails) and the typical "way too hard enemy out in the exploration" though that one is a bit too common in general for first levels. It felt like it was checking all the boxes, and I felt that.

Bolletaria was way more condenced though, you loop around seemlessly, opening shortcuts to the entrance, where the only 'bonfire' is. Stormveil feels like this cool lineair area with checkpoints. This is an issue I have with souls in general of late, far too many bonfires. I mean Painted World in Dark1 had a SINGLE bonfire, yet was designed perfectly around it (such a great level). Meanwhile Stormveil has 12 (13 if you count that side tower). What's your take on that btw? Because it kinda reminds me of that 'big open world vs well designed condenced area'. The Painted world in Dark1 was honestly quite small, but felt way better designed than the giant and huge areas in Elden Ring to me.

> they are new games
I've seen them constantly struggle to even improve on the most basic thing. After DS1 The mechanics are identical, but they never really elevate them. We still have the exact same spells, but only more that do the same but for different elements. Covenants are still a joke. Online is still shitty and matchmaking a chore. The only thing they strangely remix sometimes are the stats and the names, but after Adaptability they basically stopped doing that too. Like DS1 added poise, that was a huge gamechanger, but there's never been a mechanic like that added again. Weapon-arts are probably the first real new thing, but even in those I feel no real...progression? Elden Ring did do them a tad better than DS3, but at this tempo I expect the mechanic to finally be worth it in Elden Ring 9.

If you're going to do a sequel that's basically "the same game, again", at least be like God of War 2 and just do it on overdrive. Fix all the shortcomings, make it better. Hell we're legit going backwards with some things, like the interconnected leveldesign basically going down the shitter after DS1, covenants were basically just ditched since they couldn't figure them out, backstabs were finally fixed but now they're back to being busted again. Such a shame.

> stormking dude
I mean, I said why: dark souls 3 bosses are great, in a vaccume. And for me that guy is the best and most memorable in that vaccume. Mechanically he's not too special (lots of tracking moves, area plays with your mind making depth hard to see) and honestly I hate how you have to ... always...redo...phase 1. If I was allowed to keep one of the 'learn my dodge pattern plz' bosses, I'd keep this one as he's easily the coolest and hardest. I think what strangely helps him for me is that he's optional too. With many bosses (also in ER) I was kinda "oh I wonder what cool looking area is next, oh a boss, welp time to learn a pattern for 20 minutes before I can continue on" while this guy I could just do at my own pace if that makes any sort of sense. Also liked that he wasn't too overtuned. Malenia really felt like the kitchen sink in terms of damage output (in general an issue with ER), but he was pretty hard hitting but not TOO much, giving you some breathing room.

> any boss needs a gimmick
In general I am of the opinion that action games have garbage bosses in general. There's a few standouts like Noah Prime from Astral Chain and Vanquish's final boss, but honestly 99% are just trash that showcase far less mechanical complexity than a random fight in that game, while splashing the screen with effects and epic music trying to make me give a damn. I legit cannot think of a single good boss fight in my favourite series (ninja gaiden).

> what does Dark Souls 1 do different
In general? I'm more curious if you'll see this yourself but to me its the open design. You can, outside of the three late-game areas that are locked off, go anywhere in any order. Difficulty and challenge are far less 'the point', it's way more about exploration, trying shit out and just finding what works. I can still replay that game and have the run feel fresh since you can route it differently. Demon's has the same benefit. I'm under no illusion that I'm also part of the afformentioned axiom i.e. "the first is the best, the last is the worst". Demon's Souls was unique to me, a breath of fresh air and cool that it basically said to every gaming rule "that's nice, how about no". You die? Fuck easy mode, each time you die the game becomes harder. Hell the game even has an NPC that will kill all NPCs, it's so anti-gamer it was super unique at the time. And I think that's more it, at the time. It was cool then, but now it's a bit like that one forum user with a Golden Sun avatar, we get it. We get it. Just please shut up and get some new material.

THAT SAID: In general why I sort of 'give Dark Souls the benefit of the doubt' is because it was a redo. DeS was generally a succes, but also hardly experienced by the wider public, so it made sense that they'd reuse ideas while still adding new ones. It also had a lot of new things which I feel shouldn't be overlooked: Covenants were new, a lot of the bosses used gimmicks we hadn't seen before, the interconnected world was new and really changed the way you interacted with it (Demon's Souls was more megaman style with a level-select), pyromancy was new, it changed a lot of mechanics and added new ones (like Poise, making big armour useful), it had a ton of hidden away content and optional bosses which was new for the series, it had multiple endings to discover (2, but hey, maybe there was more so we kept looking until the PC version hit), the tailweapon gimmick was a neat addition to bosses and as a result of the above really allowed for actual builds. DeS was really just 'mage or not-mage'. You only had two roll speeds (slow and fast). Armor was pointless. Dark1 really allowed for more. You could become a literal tank, an archer, a pyromage, you could become practically invisible, a hard hitting glass cannon -- it wasn't as much as you'd want but it was a huge upgrade.

It and Demons' Souls are also still when the bosses were less 'tuned' to players knowing how these games work. Like with Morgott in ER you can basically see him stand on a turntable with the movement tracking he's doing and he has those "eeh...ehhh..here it comes...no not yet...one second...BAM" animations to catch players that have played the series off guard but feel cheap as a result.

.

Sorry for the intrusion, but I'll give my take (and tips) about Bloodborne

> IMO it's the best one

A wise man here.

> You've generally got a choice between dodge focused melee build and dodge focused melee build with a slower weapon.

I don't think that's essentially true though. For sure, it has way less build options than the previous entries, but I think this is the "less is more" case done right. There are less weapons, but they're way more significant and distinct than in Dark Souls, and most of the builds are really fun and efficient in their own methodology.
For instance, you can turn into a beast or alien using the DLC covenant runes and specific weapons (the Bloodborne Talons are really, REALLY dumb fun, probably my favorite build in Souls games).

There are Burial Blade and Blades of Mercy that deal bonus damage in quick attacks (dodge + attack, sprint + attack, step + attack, etc.), Stake Driver, which has a lame moveset but the most powerful attack in the game (charged R2), the WHEEL with stackable multi-hits attacks that consume your health over time, etc.

There are 26 unique weapons in Bloodborne and all of them are VERY creative, useful and powerful. The gem system solves a problem that every other entry has: no weapon is useless, and with the right gems, you can transform your weakest weapon into a monster. There are some disappointments e.g. bloodtinge build having only 3 viable weapons (sadly, you can't do an efficient "Gun Only" run because the fireguns are only there for parries and PVP), no skill/arcane weapons (and a lot of strength/arcane ones), etc. But still, it's the most "balanced" build system that From Software has ever created. I want to be alive to see the trick weapon system redone into a (pure) action game.

I think the biggest problem and worst feature in Bloodborne is the chalice dungeons. The builds are fantastic, even if there are few of them. My problem is the whole path to get the weapons and the right gem set. It's painful, boring, stressful, dull. Luckily, some of the coolest weapons and builds in the game are easily manageable without chalice dungeons.


Overall I think BB has the best gameplay of all FS games. Fuck Sekiro (even tho I like it)


> My only two tips to you is to try and avoid over-relying on gun-parries.

I'd like to add some few notes here.

First, the movement. Bloodborne is the only soul that really changed the combat methodology. Attack first, think later. Move, dash, dodge, step, combo (R1 + L1 with the Saw Cleaver is a good start). The whole "hit and roll" discourse is well mechanized here and you can find yourself a better gameplay loop with the right mindset, imo.
Second, the healing system... You'll probably hate it but here is my advice: abuse the rally system. You can heal by attacking foes even if they're already dead, so, keep that on mind, it's really important.

>Roy on OF
I'm listening.

>exploration
Souls has some of the best. Scares the shit out of me too.

>Demon's Souls
Played the whole thing with the bow. Was amazing. That giant knight couldn't do shit.

>ER
Have their been any updates that make bows better?

> jonnyboy
It's all good man <3

> Lenz
Haven't seen you here before, welcome the the forum man!

> BB builds
Yeah as noted it isn't exactly that barebones, but coming from Dark Souls where John mostly enjoyed the varying builds and the changes they brought, the changes here are a lot more nuanced/less in size/impact. On the flipside I do feel the weapons in BB have a level of playstyle difference akin to something like Ninja Gaiden. They all feel very different and unique with their own playstyles (and some minor mechanics, like that bloodrage thing). Really, really wish upon beating the game once you could start a new game but all weapons were available for the initial choice. I'd love to replay the game with the Beast Claws but I only have them on NG+++ and some of the DLC weapons are way too late game.

> rally system
I liked the idea but in general the trade-off didn't seem worth it to me, what about you? Especially with how hard later bosses hit.

> chalice
I really enjoyed it as an idea, but having so many of them and having most of them be so insanely easy you tend to get bored of them before you reach the really cool ones.

> Haven't seen you here before, welcome the the forum man!

Hey there! I've been reading some posts as a guest well before I signed up but now I'd like to have a voice here haha

> Ninja Gaiden

Pretty much. A lot of nuances, "pause" weapon-switching, "play as you want" and two badass scythes

> (and some minor mechanics, like that bloodrage thing)

Ironically, I'm playing NG3:RE for the first time, day 2 rn, Ayane is pretty cool

> but all weapons were available for the initial choice.

Unfortunately BB lacks a lot of QoL features, like the optional NG+, respec, a proper bonfire system, etc. This is probably because DS2 was made by a completely different team (as such as DS3, both have these features)

> I liked the idea but in general the trade-off didn't seem worth it to me, what about you? Especially with how hard later bosses hit.

It's one of my favorite healing system OAT. It encourages offense to save blood vials and play more cautious around your movement (not only because of quick attacks, but, ironically, BB has less iframes than dark souls 1/3), so, the window to make mistakes is wider and you take bonus damage if you get hit while dodging. So, the rally is there, to save AT LEAST one vial (1 blood vial = 40% of total HP) and that's very nice.

Worth to note that rally is also influenced by the weapon. There is a database showing the numbers, and it increases the more you upgrade your weapon, e.g. BoM has a terrible rally potential (30 with no upgrade and 40 in +10), but the Hunter's Axe is a beast (75 with no upgrade and 125 in +10), so, that's another great detail to take note when you're setting up your (two) weapons of choice. One day I put a rally up% gem in my Scythe and I never used a single blood vial in my run again.

> I really enjoyed it as an idea

Me too, it's the equivalent of demon's souls World Tendency, if you get me. But it gets repetitive pretty quickly and being forced to play them to optimize my build is annoying. I have 0 plans to replay Elden Ring again because the entire open world is structured around "chalice-alike" layouts and, despite I really like the game, i have to turn my brain off to enjoy this kind of grind.

> vials
Really felt like a backwards step to remove the estus system or a similar regenerating healthpool in favour of the consumables. Didn't know Rally was affected by weapon-type and level, but it does make sense that some regen more or less based on attackspeed for example.

> chalice
Yeah in ER it was great at first, until the illusion breaks and you start to see how they're constructed.

> world tendency
Felt that one was a lot more easy to 'control' and also didn't really get too much in the way. I still hate how they removed Pure Black Tendency styled remixed from soulsgames (outside of DS2). DS1 locked it behind Gravelording which never worked.

> NG3RE
I'm also replaying yet ANOTHER version of the game (xbox MC release) so on my way to unlock all the difficulties...again. This has to be like the 5th time it feels like.

> Really felt like a backwards step to remove the estus system

Understandable. It's personally my favorite healing system alongside DS1 Estus

DeS weed is samey but worse than BB's, DS2 lifegems are just dumb, DS3 is ok but I still don't like to distribute the mana flasks and the same goes for elden ring.

I like the blood vial system, not only for narrative reasons but I think it's a good way to keep pushing further the player behavior around the situation and create this kind of "resource management"

The only complaints about this system I see out there is when someone is stuck on a boss, die a lot, and then "oh shit I'm out of vials, have to farm here and there" but I've never seen anyone complain about the vials outside of a bossfight.

But that's my main problem with the vials: the fallback is bad and the corpse-run design doesn't fit with this kind of healing system. You'll never kill all the enemies in the way again every time you die in a bossfight because the game don't want you to do it but at the same time you'll need to farm because of the healing system

Anyway, it isn't perfect, but very creative. Like the rest of the game, let's be honest, Bloodborne was the last time FS tried to be at least 80% innovative.

> until the illusion breaks

yeee that's how i feel. elden ring is an arcade game stuck in a dungeon crawler with task management fetish, the exploration is very good, but it never achieves the organicity of DS1 (it ALMOST did that with the underground areas like Siofra River and Ranni sidequest)

> and also didn't really get too much in the way.

Nor the chalice dungeons. In fact, I have the same problem with both: you can play normally, totally ignoring them, but when you get interested in some specific builds, they'll eventually get in your way. There is some weapons in demon's souls that you can only get if you have X tendency in X area. It's creative, but kinda annoying

> 5th time

Dear oh dear. I'm in a hate/love relationship with the game because the combat it's absolutely fantastic but I can't imagine myself replaying this because of the rest (uninspired levels, bad encounters and enemies, etc)

.

I can understand many of your points, I don't feel them personally per-se since I really enjoyed the title, but I fully expected it as your reaction. Going into the game I think it's wise to expect more of a 'typical' action game with some soul-inspired things in it, than it being in the line of ER/DR.

One thing that, strangely, boosted my enjoyment immensely was I recall beating a boss and just dumping all my 'souls' into buying Vials/bullets and that was enough. Just gotta make one big splurge.

> the site gets traction now that you're here
Story of your life

> magic
Note, there is magic, it is just very rare and they aren't all that great imo. Some are really good though.

.

My man, glad to see you escaped Reddit jail.

Was gonna carry on our last conversation, but those last few threads were such a rollercoaster, I didn't want to derail them.

We'll see what comes first, a Bloodborne port or a decent emulator.

> there's no magic in this game

There is. Hunter's Tools.

> no shields

I don't think this is a problem

> which is positioning (dodging attacks with movement and positioning)

hey, what? BB has the most deliberate combat system (of the souls games) in terms of movement. It's more than "learning patterns and movesets", imo. There is sprint, steps, rolls, they have less iframes, there is weapons with different % of quick attacks damage, the risk/reward here is way more balanced than DS3 and ER, imo. You'll get used to it when you get used to the "weapon mindset"

> are just 'Dex But Can Use a Variety of Weapons' and 'Dex But Uses Heavy Weapons' respectively, their unique playstyles are gone in this.

You are right, but I don't think I see this as a problem? Like, yep, no hyperarmor, no shields, just the barebones combat. But you have the best arsenal in the entire series, unique weapons with unique gimmicks that can benefit from your playstyle and your build of choice. The entire gameplay is around the variety of weapons, so I think you will, most likely, change your mind about it when you get in depth into that system.

> you do little damage to bosses and some mobs because they're pushing you to parry them

that's very wrong tho, it's easy to beat the game without doing a single parry. Focus on upgrade your weapons, it's more important than leveling up.

> "forced to learn the boss for a long time before you can continue"? that's this game.

Actually, I think DS3 and ER are way more demanding of "learning patterns" than Bloodborne. The final boss of this game is a "straight up fight" but it's way less reactive than gwyn, soul of cinder and radartificialgon

Besides, somehow the input buffering for souls games got wider after Bloodborne. I don't care about this in Sekiro since it's a different game, ER makes the shields and skills actually useful instead of L1-spam, so the only soul game that I can think about it being a "hit and dodge" kind of game is DS3, very streamlined compare to previous titles and the enemy design being more reactive doesn't help, I mean, it's definitely not for me, way too muscle memory over skillful gameplay

One thing I love about Bloodborne is that "hit and dodge" is actually meaningful, you have a ton of tools to use around it and this time you don't have to dodge because of "Simon Says", actually, the PLAYER is Simon this time haha. Learn to be agressive, learn to punish by yourself, in Dark Souls/Elden Ring (and even Sekiro) you need to wait your enemy's turn to punish, but in Bloodborne it's like a duel: whoever hit first will take advantage. It wouldn't make any sense if Bloodborne had shields or Dark Souls poise system. And in theory, this could be like you said: just one playstyle, be agressive, but the weapons are so distinct and unique from each other that every fucking run I have to play with a different mindset because of it.  


Roy

> Note, there is magic, it is just very rare and they aren't all that great imo. Some are really good though.

The magic is more overpowered here than in every other souls title, in terms of scaling. The hunter's tools (and items, like molotovs) don't have any significant softcap and they'll scale way better than weapons til lv99 (max level). So, the majority of PvE builds are LV99 Arcane, which is funny, because how they nerfed magic in DS3, one year later.

John

If you want I can recommend you weapons, tips, gems, etc. You're doing a Skill build, right? If you have PS Plus, there is a chalice glyph with a Scythe weapon, one of my favorites. Without the glyph you can only get this Scythe late-game, unfortunately.
There is Saw Spear which is basically Saw Cleaver with steroids. Saif is cool and scales better but, despite the name, it doesn't have extra damage against beasts unlike Saw Spear which is a fully serrated weapon and Saw Cleaver tricked state.

You can also kill Eileen (the crow woman) or do her quest to get her weapon, which is one of the only weapons with S in skill scaling by default (besides the bow). About the bow: it's a good skill weapon but only untransformed. The bow itself (tricked mode) scales with bloodtinge because the game considers that arrow = bullet, and bullets deal damage based on bloodtinge.

Anyway, every weapon is viable, so, keep that in mind. Here the Scythe if you have PS Plus and don't care about spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQLgAOrJ_Fo

> magic
This is more for NG+ though right? I can understand it is great at 99 arcane with all the tools, but most of the good ones are either end-game or locked to the DLC content afaik. Without a respec this means slogging on with a shitty build until it gets good about 10 minutes before the game ends. It's not like in other souls titles where you can play the entire new game as it from the get go, that's more what I mean.

> glyphs
Is there also one for an early Claws? I still want to do a full fresh run with that weapon but the only ones I've found were literally end-game which really sucked.

EDIT: by god there is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SC93qN0Lro
Time for a replay soon.

> shitty build

Yeah that's a recurrent problem with non-physical damage builds. You have to deal with quick fixes like flamesprayer and tonitrus (Arcane example) because without PS Plus, you won't be able to get an early great arcane/bloodtinge weapon. There is Rifle Spear but the bullet damage is too low for pure bloodtinge, which is a shame. Meanwhile, you have a LOT of options for an early skill, strength or quality build:

Saw Cleaver, Hunter's Axe, Threaded Cane (starting weapons), BoM (if you kill eileen), Rifle Spear (old yharnam), Saw Spear (central yharnam), Simon's Bowblade (if you kill simon in DLC), Amygdala's Arm (early DLC), Saif (early DLC), Beast Cutter (early DLC), Kirkhammer (post-cleric beast), LHB (post-BSB), Whirling Saw (early DLC)

Literally HALF of tricked weapons in this game are physical that you can get early in the game. I think it could have more bloodtinge/arcane weapons

> Time for a replay soon.

I think there is a early glyph for every weapon in the game, except for DLC weapons

The replay value is very, very good if you plan to toy around with different weapons. Demon's and Dark Souls I replay only because I love these games but i really don't care that much about different build, it's a cool process of grind and reward but the gameplay isn't very good comparing to bloodborne so w/e

.

As a driveby comment, I think this one is a pretty neat sentence that I haven't given much thought to before: "they have more demanding movesets, but are you demanded to learn them?".

One of the things people note in previous souls games is that you don't really have to learn patterns as you can circumvent them i.e. builds. You can (and will) make a build at somepoint that trivializes a boss. In Bloodborne you're generally more required to learn something of the boss to get past him (traditional action-game style). Some setups can negate this, but they're very niche. Nothing like Comet Azure here.

> paranoid first run
Very recognizable feeling, have the same with every entry especially since some really cool stuff can get locked out for no reason.

> daddy gascoine
Don't forget you can use the sidequest to semi-skip his second phase.

I always liked that boss but also felt he was an example of the limitations of the RPG mechanics. You can use molotovs for example, but they are rare at that point and don't recharge, so if you use them and die, they're gone. I still feel Souls needs to be rid of consumables or resort to a more oldsk00l checkpoint system i.e. you die, you regain the items you used in that encounter or w/e.

> what builds exactly?

Not necessarily a specific build, but there is something called Blood Gems. They're like ash of war (ER) or special titanites (demon's/dark souls), i.e. they grant different buffs and properties to your weapon

the best gems in the game are located in specific chalice glyphs and some of them are kinda rare, so, a lot of grind (i mean, a lot of grind. a LOT of grind. hours and hours). I don't dislike this because it's a different system of the game being exploited through an online feature but it's a shame there is no "best gems in the game"... in the actual game. Just in chalices. Of course, there is some good gems in later areas/DLC but nothing can top chalice blood gems.

> that's not gonna apply for you at this point because you're good at it now.

Fair point, but yeah, I was just trying to saying that "playstyle" is intrinsically dependent of your weapons, not your build. You won't get too far spamming dodge with something like stake driver

> you're so much more dependent on dodge-rolls.

Now I get what you're saying. Still, a problem for you, not for me!

> number of times that you're forced to dodge-roll an attack in DS3 & ER combined.

Of course, no shields, no armor, it's no dark souls nor elden ring, it lacks deffensive options for the sake of offensive options. My problem with DS3 is that this game is Bloodborne gameplay in Dark Souls world: why would I care about positioning, shields and hyperarmor if dodge-rolling is extremely more effective? The combat is faster (than 1 and 2), the enemies and bosses are slower (than bloodborne), dodge-rolling as a deffensive option is broken and light-attacks as a offensive option is broken. This, obviously, isn't the only way to play the game but is the way the game is designed around.

> steps/rolls are both the same thing which is dodge-rolling

Yes and no. They have the same amount of iframes and speed but I was talking about quick attacks. It depends on weapon, but generally there is difference in damage, range, type of damage, impact, multiplier, etc. But fronstep and rolling is pretty much the same thing, yes.

> which means that even sprinting forwards while locked-on is a terrible idea.

this is true for every other soul game. but I get it, "in bloodborne this is a problem because the game is faster", I won't disagree but really, this isn't a big deal for me. I think a different lock-on system would solve this problem.

> what's your point

Less iframes: more risk. It also has more recovery frames, so, more chances of you take instability damage. DS3 is generous, you can spam roll whenever you want. Rolling is your only deffensive option in bloodborne, yeah, but it's not like the game isn't designed around that. It's also one of your most powerful offensive options, the game punish you for not being aggressive enough but also punish you for being greedy. DS3 fast and mid roll has the same amount of iframes as 105 agility DS2 dodgeroll.

> they have more demanding movesets, but are you demanded to learn them?

Good point, but I don't think you are demanded to learn some of Bloodborne bosses neither. It's more about the game mechanics than the boss moveset per se.

> that i really need to learn Gascoigne's moveset to a far greater extent to get by than i do Pontiff's.

I understand what you're trying to say but Gascoigne having a simpler moveset than Sulyvahn contributes to the counterargument. You don't have to learn his movements, you have to learn his behavior. You can skip his 2nd phase, you can stunlock him, you can parry-loop him, he being simple is good because

1. he is the second first boss of the game (okay there are two first bosses, he and cleric beast, he is the first hunter and cleric beast is the first... beast)
2. BB is more skill-based than other souls titles, but it still has a rigid ARPG combat. Malenia sucks because is a Sekiro boss dumped in Elden Ring, Sister Friede sucks because is a Bloodborne boss dumped in Dark Souls 3. Gascoigne has a lot of dodge-punishing attacks but he doesn't read your animation, he doesn't track all of your movements, no delayed attacks, etc, etc. It's a fair fight, not a muscle memory masturbation. And honestly I still don't know how the fuck you deal little damage to him, because at this point, your weapon should be +3 already.

> fair enough but i highly doubt it's going to compare to the magic in DS3/ER

It's not the same but at high level is probably more powerful

> i don't know about this nerf

I meant nerf in comparison to DS1 and DS2.

> what's the difference?

I wasn't talking about bosses, and no, it's clearly not the same.

Let's talk about DS1, then: it's a chess. While you CAN be agressive and attack your enemy first, it's a slow and methodical game, everything is designed around wait and punish. Bloodborne is the exact opposite: you punish first, if you wait, you can parry, you can do an "open attack" (hitting your enemy while he is in an active frame has bonus damage)

But these are "remedy tools". DS3 is a bit of both and Elden Ring is Mario Maker of Warcraft. But I think you misunderstood my statement. "whoever hit first..." was a metaphor, analogy to explain Bloodborne combat design

> how is BB not hit and dodge?

It is, but with more nuances and more... intentional, i think.

> see, that's an obnoxious part of the game.

Indeed. Weapons/gems distributions should be better balanced, and the online thing is fucked up.

> this isn't true

Not entirely but I guess i said enough about that before

> what are the consequences for not doing Simon's quest?

Just missable dialogues and lore.

.

> there's like what, 1 Qua weapon

The quality build in this game is like 50/25 or 25/50. But you can do a very efficient 50/50 with other weapons, like Saw Cleaver, Saif, HMS, Saw Spear, Beast Claw and Stake Driver.

> tell me you suck by telling me you suck

No, it's actually consensual, Malenia is literally against "variety of playstyles" and Friede is just bad (phase 3, the other two are cool)

> classic, mate.

You tried to mock me but now you get what I am saying. R1s and dodge-rolling are broken (specially in DS3) but are simple mechanics and the game tries to do complex bossfights around them. It's broken for wrong reasons and also difficult for wrong reasons. Malenia is one of the toughest bosses I've ever seen but she isn't *fair* or demands a lot of skillful plays from the player.

> on my very first attempt

Don't know what you are trying to say here. I think this is just you, really, because in my experience, Bloodborne was the one of the most generous and didactic soul game, it explains everything you need and the learning curve is the best among all of them, imo.

> i mean you played DS3/ER like it's BB

Ad hominem. I played DS3/ER like it's DS3/ER. DS3 wants to you to play like it's BB, actually. I'm not judging myself, I'm judging the game.

>  is not effective when you're new to the game

Not really. I've seen and help some friends (new to the series) and most of them say things like "oh, fuck off, shields are shit, useless. I'll play one-handed and spamming dodge from now" or "hey, which one of these set is the most stylish?" and yeah... parries, armor, poise, R2 attacks... no, you are wrong. In the first playthrough, the VAST MAJORITY of players will rely on light attacks and dodge-rolling and SPECIALLY in DS3, it's by far the most effective playstyle. I'm not saying that "playing different" is wrong or worse, it's more a balance problem than lack of options.

> and doesn't have powerful shit

that's right, it doesn't have an insta-kill magic or anything in your first run, it's more action than RPG. No problem.

> and if anything BB is more reliant on R1's/light-attacks.

yeah but in this case, it's a good thing. because it adds depth to the combat. i don't want to repeat myself but: weapons. a lot of weapons, a lot of different R1s and its nuances, dodge-attack, running attack, trick attack, light attack combos, etc.

> R2's/charged R2's

In BB they work differently. It's your backstab, but it also has more bonus damage, and... again... it depends on the weapon.

> you'll tank anything that a boss can throw at you

Or you can dodge, because the dodge is easier and more powerful. It's simple: Weapon Arts may be useful sometimes, but the dodge-rolling and light attacks will always be better.

In elden ring they are amazing, though.

> "learn" oh so you do have to learn?

Yeah like every boss in any videogame.

> because you can sprint

That's a very stupid solution, and I know that because I had to do it in Friede bossfight. Her third phase, which is awful, could be easily managed if Ashen One had a gun like the Hunter but NO, the Ashen One don't have a gun because he is worthless. "Oh but friede is a Dark Souls 3 boss-" so explain me why they reused Bloodborne animations (the exact same animation) to do her entire third phase and hey, her movements are exactly like bloodborne. she lock-oned you and that's why she don't roll but STEP

Friede has a 500km combo string that could be parry-looped if she was in the right game. "But the shields, the armor..." also useless. The only solution is SPRINT - which is a terrible one. Thank god Bloodborne isn't like that.

> you can't even remotely do the amount of movement/positioning that you can do in DS3/ER.

That's about your deffensive movement/positioning. In DS3/ER, you can't even remotely do the amount of offensive movement/positioning that you can do it in BB.

Sweeping and swinging attacks based on your weapon and movement, less iframes and more recovery frame which means more dangerous dodge spam, rally system which is completely risk/reward: should I back off and heal myself using blood vials, or should I being agressive to save one or two vials? It's about positioning as well.


(and in Bloodborne, some weapons DO have hyper armor, fyi: after the glow in charged R2s, R1-L1 (transformed attacks) with big weapons like kirkhammer and holy blade, L2 with big weapons, basically, big weapons. you can test by yourself)

> what do you call his axe move when he grinds it against the floor at first?

I call it "Hunter's Axe Charged R2". The player can use it, it's like, one of the first moves you learn in the game.

> you fail to control yourself and panic-roll, you get hit-- sounds fair to me.

It's not unfair, just annoying. It's more about you learning the boss than learning the actual combat. Bloodborne is a good mix between both.

> you have no real chance of beating him on your first attempt

that's... just you, I'm sorry, you are not arguing and I won't either. But keep in mind that he is your skillcheck. If you beat him, you'll be more comfortable with the rest of the game.

> i'm talking about in the context of boss runs.

It's more likely that someone, (anyone), would be able to beat him in first attempt than beat Sulyvahn (your example) in first attempt. There is also Margit from Elden Ring, which is WAY more difficult to beat in the "first attempt"

> no it's only true for DeS, DS1, and Bloodborne

How ironic, the three best souls games.

> which has zero relevance when you're forced to dodge-roll, which you are for a ton of attacks in BB

No, it's actually very relevant, it's about balance. Rolling won't be relevant if you're already dead. And you WILL be dead if you spam roll mindlessly -- except if you are playing DS3.

> is one of the reasons that contributes to why this game isn't very fair to a new player.

Is also one of the reasons that, in my first playthrough, was the most "fair" and encouraging one.

> that's all you need to have said

I forgot about parries.

> it has the same default iframes

uhhhhh... no? DS2 is different because of the ADP system but DS1 midroll has 11 iframes and fatroll has 9 iframes (even if you consider that fast roll is default, DS2 would break your argument). DS3 fatroll has 12 iframes, mid and fastroll has 13. This is a gamechanger, don't know why you are treating like it's irrelevant.

DS3 "hit and roll" playstyle is far from being risky because

1. In your first playthrough, your best option is rely on rolls and light attacks because it's more practical and easy than other "playstyles".
2. More iframes means more spam and less recovery frames means less worries. The game is just THAT generous.
3. Yeah, you don't know a shit about enemies and bosses moveset but you won't be punished for that because you have your best friend: roll.
4. Light attacks spend less stamina and stagger enemies more consistently than it was in DS1/DS2. The damage is also good, so, while there is always a good "other option" to use, I'm very sure that Miyazaki designed this game with Bloodborne in mind. It ended up being a Frankenstein.

> yes, 105 agility is default iframes in DS2

what? you need to level up a lot to get there.

> and i don't think you remember your first playthrough.

i think you're being very extreme. First, "I don't think that you are demanded to learn the bosses moveset" is not a black/white statement. You NEED to learn the bosses, you need to learn their moves, but in comparison to DS3, for instance, it's a 50/50 between your reactive skill and active skill. Don't try to convince me that DS3 is the exact same because no, is not. DS3 is like 70/30, you can have fun with your mechanics but the bosses are more restrictive.

> do you think these are reasonable, reliable go-to's in that context?

yeah, i think. in a blind run you can just explore the game and pay attention, it's not that hard. Or you can look about it in the wiki.

> i don't think the sidequest item can count as a reason why the fight is fair.

just an option, man. the boss is still fair without it.

> and who's going to be parry-looping him on the first playthrough on your first attempt

that's not the point. this boss teaches you how to parry and how to deal with hunters (And beasts)

"who's going to be parry-looping him"? Me, because parry is extremely easy to get the timing and the most obvious thing to do against him is... parry. You can also beat without the parry because at this point, your damage, HP and stamina should be okay to deal with him. But parry is your best tool here.

> would you defend Bloody Crow of Cainhurst as a fair fight?

that's literally my favorite NPC fight in the franchise

> who cares?

yeah who cares about having fun

> it's a non-issue and it's good for the game.

a lot of bloodborne bosses have animation reading. i'm not saying is bad per se, but Elden Ring uses it in a bad way, that's my point. Just like DS3 with high tracking moves.

> who the fuck is going to have a +3 weapon at this point?

Okay, it's possible, but you'd have to farm. BUT there is 10 titanite shards before, enough to level up to +2. If you are rushing the game, that's your problem.

> still piss-poor damage.

Amigo, that's far from being true. Weapon upgrade is more important than level up, the damage is noticeable and you also increases the rally potential.

I'll do another run of Bloodborne til Gascoigne. The "fair x unfair" thing is very personal, I can argue against you but I won't change your mind. The damage thing, though, is very odd. I've never seen someone complaining about that before.

I'll also do another run of DS3. I admit that I didn't explored too much of DS3' combat, but I played this game several times.

I loved it in the first, second, third, fourth run. Now i'm just exhausted. It's bland, uninteresting. It's Dark Souls but not good as Dark Souls and Bloodborne but not good as Bloodborne. It's a decent game, but very, very streamlined, less polished, less creative, yet, functional, at its best. The combat itself (like the game and pretty much almost everything else) is my second least favorite in the franchise, but that it's because DS2 exist (and DS2 combat sucks. people talk about "builds variety" but I won't get there if the combat keep being bad, is my filter, my limit, I won't argue in favor or against DS2 because I can't, I dropped my 2nd run because the combat is too bad. i'm sorry, DS2fans)

DS3 gameplay is good, but not good as demon's souls/dark souls in terms of tactical action loops and not good as Bloodborne in terms of straight-up action loops. If I replay I may change my mind a little, but even ignoring the combat, most of the game is very uninteresting to me. The bosses and music are cool, though.

And I'd like to BEG YOU (okay not really) to not act defensively every time. I'm in the "Bloodborne Team" and "DS3 HateClub", not "oh yeah John from stinger, this redditor sucks". I don't know if you are being genuine about me or it's just your personality, but I can understand.

At least, you made me rethink a little about DS3 gameplay, which is a good thing.

.

>Black Adam (if my comrade will make some more goddamn posts)



Relax, I'm still here.

You make good points. It's not fair to characterise complex bosses as "straight up fights" just because they don't have a gimmick attached to them (I know that's only a fraction of Roy's points.) As for the well running dry, I think he meant (and feel free to correct) the general gameplay and tone of DS. Sure each new entry brings more mechanics (they have to, to justify a sequel), but he wants more extraction from the Bloodborne/Sekiro wells, e.g. Bloodborne with checkpoints, or Sekiro without the Souls stuff. Can't comment on what I haven't played, but I'd love to skip the grind on throwing knives, blood vials and molotovs when a boss decks me. In fact, expand that to souls and humanity while we're at it. How about Sekiro: shadows die once (I know you only lose half your souls when you die, when you can retrieve 100% from every other game)?

So let me get this straight. John's playing BB like DS3/ER. Dodge rolling carried John through most DS3/ER bosses 1st time, but he got cockblocked by BB bosses. He's arguing that dodge roll playstyles are inherently riskier, and expected of a 1st time player familiar with Soulsborne.

Lenz says dodge + poke is OP, and removes the needs for positioning, shields and hyperarmor. That DS3 fat/mid/fast rolls are 12/13/13 iframes, while it's 9/11/13 in DS1 and 5-16 in DS2 depending on agility. 11 frames + instability damage (an f u if you miss the dodge timing) in BB mean you're required to parry and engage with bosses. But it's 50/50 between reacting to moves and improvising, while it's 70/30 in DS3.

Lenz says (for example) use the iframes of attacks rather than rolling. John says that's too much for a casual/1st time player to be expected to do, and the item to skip half the boss was hard to find. Lenz says Gascoigne is less of a skill check than Sulyvahn or Margit, and that hidden secrets are actually easy to find if you're observant enough. Plus it can be done without it. (BTW does this make the Music Box the Drake Sword of BB?)

Lenz concedes that a +3 weapon is unlikely for a 1st time player, but a +2 is easy, and damage boosts from weapon upgrades are large. John invites everyone to (re)play DS3/ER without dodge-rolling (presumably shield/parry instead of magic). Lenz will reevaluate the fairness building up to Daddy G.

Are these the facts?

If so, I'm of two minds. Presumably only someone who hasn't played him can judge whether G is fair for new players. But one could argue that an expert sees things casuals wouldn't, and can give a better evaluation. There's no right answer, but on this site, the latter is true. This site self-selects for higher-than-average skill levels. Meanwhile, new player skill can range from yo mama to Faker. But here, DS veterans are struggling, which leads to my next point.

It sounds like John struggled with BB bosses because he doesn't have the generous iframes of DS3. A cursory glance also tells me that ifames + cheap stamina is a complaint of DS3. Lenz argues that the punishment of rollspam in BB opens up combat to "dodge-attack, running attack, trick attack, light attack combos, etc."

I agree that a casual player is conditioned to poke + roll in a Souls game. Parrying many bosses in BB is new to Souls. Also, Roy said not to rely too much on gun parries, since they take away the fun. I think if you had checkpoints instead of bonfires, someone could practice styling all day and doing the offensive defense Lenz talks about without worrying about losing your shit.

Lenz, could you also summarise how Malenia is like a Sekiro boss? You said Friede 3 is a BB boss because she backsteps instead of rolling, shares BB animations, and does a 61 hit combo, which has no gun parry to interrupt it, so you have to run away. Also, I assume by "muscle memory masturbation", you mean Roy's complaint of "dying to a boss 20 times to learn its patterns"?

"DS3 gameplay is good, but not good as demon's souls/dark souls in terms of tactical action loops and not good as Bloodborne in terms of straight-up action loops." "You can skip his 2nd phase, you can stunlock him, you can parry-loop him." John, your best argument is to list complex bosses and attacks, and why they're better than R1+O spam. What's DS3's version of dodge/running/trick attacks? Ashes of War are compared to Blood Gems, but are they the same thing? When is dodge roll spam punished? Either that, or say the wait-punish gameplay of DS3 is better than 2, 1 and DeS.

I'm 0.5 of a Souls game away from DS3 or ER. Assuming one goes on sale (25th is the 1 year anniversary of ER), I'll buy. Won't entertain PS Now for BB. Don't want 11 iframes - 60 from streaming lag. It'll also mess up my reaction time when I get a hard copy.

Considering my 1st post about BB on here was that it can't be the system seller port-beggers make of it, I'm overly cautious about bashing what I haven't played or finished. This was before Lenz signed up, so noone really batted for it. But the current me wouldn't bash a game for not playing like another game. I saw similarities between Bayo and NG2, but I'm fighting the urge to play one like the other. There are transferable skills, but there are also skill-checks to make sure you learn the mechanics of game X, not the genre as a whole.

And now I sleep.

John

> that's just my charming personality.

Good

> and i by replaying DS3 & ER with a non-dodgeroll playstyle.

you mean, literally 0 dodgerolls? (that's... kinda impossible, i think)

Or just a non-dodgeroll abuse run? I think I'm already doing it in DS3

> you get to see for yourself if your assumptions about these games are true and if i'm just bullshitting you

Just a matter of difference perspectives and experiences. And I think I play enough of DS3 and ER to my arguments being more than just assumptions. (although replaying ER is insanity, big grindy ass game)

> you might end up enjoying these games like i do

I started a new DS3 run yesterday. Plan to do STR/FTH, rely on Hyperarmor and buffs (no good offensive miracles? really? that's demon's souls with small dick)

Elden Ring is FINE. Sometimes I think this game is another from software masterpiece. Sometimes I think it's very good, but not that much. I don't think I need to replay this

And everytime I replay DS3 i like it less. The combat per se is not a huge problem, but there is a lot of other elements that I dislike about this game. Still, a "pretty decent" in my books. Maybe I'll like the combat more, but Bloodborne has a opposite effect on me: the more I play it, the more I like it (specially the combat)

> try to imagine that argument from my end and you'll understand why.

No, I understand. Talking about from software games IS frustrating, for better or for worse. At least, I didn't say "git gud" about the game being unfair to casuals (also because I disagree, Bloodborne is way more welcoming than the other entries)

This discussion isn't endless. "To each their own" is probably the conclusion here. But feel free to respond me. (I can change my mind a little about DS3, not about Bloodborne, though)




> Black Adam

so, you are the judge

> Dodge rolling carried John

I don't think so. He played BB expecting to be DS3/ER with shields, circle-strafing and hyperarmor. In Bloodborne you have to rely on dodge-roll, which is more risky than dodge-roll in DS3/ER. But I'm trying to explain that it's also more effective as an offensive tool.

> Lenz says Gascoigne is less of a skill check

Gascoigne is more like a "so, if you are still bad in this game, i'm gonna make you good", he is your first practical teacher. Sulyvahn and Margit are more like "the real danger protecting the castle"

> BTW does this make the Music Box the Drake Sword of BB?

idk, its only use is against gascoigne, after you beat him, the item is useless

> Lenz will reevaluate the fairness building up to Daddy G.

AND the quality of "This Is Dark Souls (3)".

> without worrying about losing your shit.

I don't know, thats one of the main points of a souls game! But I do agree corpse runs sucks and the fallback of blood vial system is unnatractive, there should be a better solution to "run out of blood vials" and "walking back to the boss room AGAIN." (elden ring fixed this though). That said, "losing your shit" is present in every souls game since Demon's Souls and I think it's a neat system (except for Sekiro) because a lot of factors.

But if with "your shit" you mean "quicksilver bullets and blood vials (and consumable items)", I think that a checkpoint with consumable restoration before every boss room would be cool. It would be limited to the area before the boss, and if you try to get out of the range of that area to "checkpoint-scumming", you'd lose the items you gained from it. Or, just a literal savepoint before the bossfight, like Ninja Gaiden 2 (but it's from software so...)

> Lenz, could you also summarise how Malenia is like a Sekiro boss?

First, a stupid argument: she is a swordswoman. She has kicks, slashes and flurries animations with the same white glow that Sekiro has. She has high telegraphed attacks that could be countered with Mikiri. The waterfowl dance is visually cool, but a stupid move that could be easily parried if Wolf was the protagonist, not this shitty TARNISHED. You could argue that it would be pretty easy in Sekiro, but in Elden Ring there is LITERALLY only ONE way to dodge this move (if you didn't run).

You can block her attacks, sure. But she will heal attacking you anyway, even if you are blocking. In Sekiro, you'd lose a lot of your posture parrying Waterfowl Dance but it would be better, fun, enjoyable.

> Also, I assume by "muscle memory masturbation", you mean Roy's complaint of "dying to a boss 20 times to learn its patterns"?

Something around that. It's more like a bossfight that demands more of the player capacity of memorizing and react than deliberately using the mechanics offered by the game.

"Memorizing enemies and bosses moveset" is essential here, but it becomes bad when I feel treated like a puppet. It's okay to die and try again to get better by memorizing the boss behavior/moves/patterns, but it's always good to remember that you are the player.

> What's DS3's version of dodge/running/trick attacks?

You have different attacks when running, dodging and backstepping in every souls entry. But in Bloodborne these kind of moves are more nuanced and diversified.

> When is dodge roll spam punished? Either that, or say the wait-punish gameplay of DS3 is better than 2, 1 and DeS.

"dodge roll spam" is clearly a hyperbole, but DS3 is the most forgiving if you do it. Don't know about DS2 because I only played once, but the "wait-punish" gameplay is present in DS3, just kinda... sloppy. It's not bad, just charmless. Honestly, the game is more enjoyable if you play aggressively, because the enemies are more "vulnerable" (and you flinch most of them by just rolling), they attack more and there is no poise system in the game, which means that armor are less effective than in previous entries. A lot of people found DS3 disappointing because of this: you can't play chess.

> Won't entertain PS Now for BB

That's sad. The performance, the input lag, the exclusivity... and it's still one of the most beloved games of all time. It's a miracle.

> This was before Lenz signed up

How lucky. It's my favorite game, so i'd probably argue with you about it. But I'd also gladly help you if you play it one day.

> But the current me wouldn't bash a game for not playing like another game.

That's the spirit. Elden Ring is also great, so, I recommend it if it goes on sale.

I just did a BB run til Gascoigne. I'll talk about this run here.

Military Veteran. Died to the Scourg Beast (werewolf), because a true casual wouldn't kill him barefists.

I pick up Saw Cleaver and Pistol. Basic and generic, no casual would pick Blunderbuss. Kill the wolf (555 echoes). Kill Huntsman (48 echoes), then, other two huntsman (also 48 echoes each one), other and other and other. I died because I'm a casual. I'll stop counting.

Learned about combos, trick attacks and rally system. Really cool, now the game is more interesting, and manageable.

Ignored the two wolves in the bridge because I am a casual. And literally no one who just started Bloodborne would think that Cleric Beast is not the first mandatory boss of the game. That's a cool detail, imo.

3184 echoes, 20 blood vials, 20 quicksilver bullets. 10 molotovs. 2 oil urns.

I can't level up now because I don't have enough insight (1). And any good observer would know that molotov are good against beasts and... Cleric Beast is a beast, i guess. The game isn't even subtle about that. I guess Central Yharnam is my favorite "first area" of souls games -- but Undead Burg, 1-1 and High Wall of Lothric are also good.

Died to Cleric Beast. Back to the Hunter's Dream, the doll woke up. That's how I level up, that's good. Loading screen.

Back to Cleric Beast: 6 molotovs, 1 oil urn, I won't be able to level up because I lost my echoes in the fight.

I learn that you can break the limbs of the beasts in this game for stagger, bonus damage and visceral attack. Neat system. It promotes positioning, well-timed dodges and quick attacks.

I spent all my molotovs, now is straight-up fight. Killed Cleric Beast with a visceral attack -- great bossfight.

Now I have 7184 echoes. Time to level up.

I'm lv16 now --

VIT12
END12
STR15
SKL14
BLT7
ARC6

In the sewers. I missclicked but now I found out that I can use my own life to gain 5 bullets. Good.

There is a pig at the end of the sewers. No way I'll go after him. I take an elevator -- shortcut -- one of the most intuitive shorcuts in gaming history. Like a good casual, I'll ignore Gascoigne's daughter and music box.

5126 blood echoes. Don't want to lose it. Back to the Hunter's Dream -- 1 point in endurance and 1 point in skill

I level up my weapon to +2 because I explored the area well enough and now I'm prepared to fight Gascoigne.

There is a fucking fireball. I dodge it - luckily. There is a ladder - now I can kill the pig. He is ugly, scary but easy to deal with.

Gascoigne now. +2 weapon

Normal R1: 62 damage
Transformed R1: 56 damage
Charged normal R2: 168 damage
Visceral Attack: 360 damage

There is "quick attacks" and combo modifiers. A second R1 with Saw Cleaver deals more damage than the first R1. A running (dash) R1 deals more damage (1,09x) and a rolling R1 deals less damage (0,95x). This kind of thing depends on the weapon, of course, but the rest is just stamina management.

Conclusion:

I don't think Gascoigne has more HP/resistance than the necessary, it's relatively easy to deal with him in terms of damage. Cleric Beast has more HP than him, for instance. But the fight is indeed a western shooting. In your first run, you won't get anywhere if you don't rely on parry and visceral attacks (you can easily backstab him), unless you have luck/music box.

I don't think this is a problem, though. He and cleric beast are the first bosses in the game and they are there to teach you about basic mechanics (Cleric Beast is a "how to fight against beasts in Bloodborne" searchbar google and Gascoigne is your "How to deal with these fuckers, skillful humanoids?")

Gascoigne moveset is just exaggerated as every weapon in this game. Well-telegraphed attacks, simple patterns but noisy and stylish animations. He is using a starting weapon of the game, with a few changes but, still, a basic moveset. That's good: because you can use him to train your parry. Parry triggers at the enemy's momentum: and his attacks are slow, highly telegraphed and he is a MADMAN, dumb, with few to no tracking attacks, just the barebones Hunter's Axe modified moveset. It's very easy to know when he will attack, his charged R2 is literally a FREE visceral attack, just like his rolls. Yeah. The rolls, that's cool: everytime he roll, he'll do a follow-up attack that you can parry. That's the tell, if he roll, shoot after the animation: another free visceral attack.

Don't know how so many people would die in the first phase, unless is "the first souls-like experience" (...like me, it was my first souls, lol). Actually, the major "issue" with this fight is the arena: a lot of graves that can be useful for you or for him, depends on the situation. His second phase is cool, he is more agressive, his attacks deals more damage, but he is dumber now. The damage you deal in the first phase is pretty much the same here, but now he is a beast: you deal more damage if you have a serrated weapon or bonus against beasts. And this phase is triggers when he is, like, almost dying... so it's easy.

Margit is still way more hard as the first boss mandatory boss of the game and demands much more than basic mechanics from the player. But, of course, Elden Ring offers more options that can trivialize the fight, unlike Bloodborne, which is more limited in this sense (early game, at least). Still, imo, Gascoigne is the perfect introductory boss, by far my favorite of all Souls games. I hope I clarified some things here.

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> Lenz, first of all post your DS3 run in this thread, abandon that one you just made;

Oh, ok. Don't even know if I'll continue this run. This game is only good with mods.

> in one of your recent posts you didn't understand what i meant by aggressive/offensive movement-based positioning.

I don't understand why do you think this is less effective in bloodborne than DS3/ER.

let's see your arguments:

1. you can't sprint while locked-on except forwards -> true. don't know HOW this is a gamechanger since now you get sidesteps (better than sprint) but I see, you're just used to DS3/ER. I get the difference now, in Bloodborne you can't avoid damage by positioning (in fact, you can, but it depends on the boss. cleric beast is easy to circle-straf but yeah without shields you'll have to dodge anyway), just dodging or parrying.

2. in this, it's just another way to force you to dodge-roll. -> yeah because now, dodge-roll isn't just a panic deffensive mechanic, is a offensive one. understand that.

3. no hyperarmor -> hyperarmor exist in this game tho

4. jump -> development problem, I guess. A lot of DS2 options exist in DS3 but not in DS1/Bloodborne... L3 jump is one of them. I agree -- jump would be better in L3.

> so instead of the circle-strafe strat we're gonna be taking that up to the next level by sprinting circle-strafing instead of doing the walking circle-strafe.

So, by "aggressive/offensive movement-based positioning" you mean circle-strafe. I see. Just "circle-strafing" or "positioning" is okay.

Actually, I do this kind of strategy sometimes -- in Bloodborne, while locked-off, against some beasts. It's not very effective because I have no control over the camera and steps are more reliable (and powerful) than sprint, in most of the cases. The game is designed around that.

Now I understand your problem, but really, it doesnt hurt the depth of the game. It's like saying "yeah DS3 would be much more complex with rally and trick weapon system" (this is not an unpopular opinion lmao)

So, in Bloodborne you don't have your favorite "playstyle" (circle-strafe abuse), but that's not what "aggressive/offensive movement-based" means. "Offensive walk/sprint-based" is semantically better, because dodge-roll, sidestep, backstep, frontstep are also movement, and you are not considering them. Bloodborne is more about offensive movement than DS3/ER, because you have more attacks based on your movement options. I can agree that "walk/sprint positioning playstyle" is lacking here, but Bloodborne is much more about improvisation than gameplan/strategies.

I'll confess something here -- and your next reply will be the last one, probably.

This looks more like a "challenge-run" than a proper strategy. You are afraid to release the B/Circle button and call it "playstyle". Yeah you can beat the game without abusing dodge-rolls etc but it won't be more effective. The hyperarmor thing, though, I admit I'm curious about, but the lack of an actual poise system is disappointing.

A lot of Elden Ring bosses demands the player to rely on jump and dodges (melee build only, the casters can fuck themselves off). But Godrick is a good example of "open-ended gameplay", I can respect what you did in his bossfight. Now, try to beat Malenia without dodging lol

Yeah I know, it's not "no dodge strat", is "no dodge abusing". But in the end of day, unless you have fat-roll and big armor, dodge is the right answer to everything in DS3. In Bloodborne, shields are *literally* a joke, armors are overall just for style and damage reduction (tbh, I paid more attention to my armor in BB than in DS3), mid and fatroll is not a thing and enemies are more aggressive. So, yeah, no circle-strafe abuse here and dodge is more present (and also more complex).


> if you wanna use a block playstyle, go Qu

block playstyle. Block. Playstyle. block playstyle...

Block Playstyle. Is that even a thing? I want to rely on blocking and parrying regardless of my build. Of course, with the right stats I can have the best shields in the world, but that's not what I want.

I don't think shields are worthless or something, but you are not helping me.

I think the problem with the shields in DS3 is how enemies are designed. You can ignore them, there is no collision, and if they attack you, dodge-roll is better than blocking. In DeS/DS1 this wouldn't happen because these games are slower, the knockback and counter attacks are more consistent, you can't run past enemies (specially in demon's souls, oh my god), and enemies attacking more means your stamina run out faster.

> i didn't start off the game like that.

i know, you probably did not started the game like... that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnpozLFoJ5s

the best DS3 playstyle -- twinblades, dodge-roll and L1 spam 24/7.

>This game is only good with mods.

The excuse I needed

I have a slight interest in playing ER again if I could just get my hands on that poison bow from the start.

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> but it's not to try to convince you

Convince me? you are just trashing me since your "LONGEST POST EVER MADE ON STINGER 2v1 HANDICAP MATCH"

> there is no reason to do charged R2's

That's wrong, but hopefully you're only talking about hyperarmor

> done and done lol

yeah congrats, youtuber

> because you still carried your experience and skill with you

But I didn't invented math. "we know", right?


> malenia and friede

I like friede, and she being a Bloodborne boss and Malenia a Sekiro one is hyperbole. They both share mechanics and animations with respective games and this can be harmful. Friede has this long-ass combos with her scythe like Bloodborne but the player doesn't. And in Bloodborne you could just parry-loop her and then, the combo thing wouldn't be a problem. "OH BUT DS3 BLOCK AND PAR-" no, you're wrong. DS3 and Parry in the same sentence -- nonsensical.

> add in 'use a shield' and we're already LITERALLY to 7. you were saying?

I watched a similar video before.

Outspace is the LITERAL only ONE way to do that.

Run away is pure luck and quick reaction
Dodge is shit; possible doesn't mean "effective"
Throwing Knives, yeah, how didn't i think of this before? Very obvious!
Stagger is okay but again: pure luck and quick reaction.

> so what?

that's not a good thing in my opinion... i guess... yeah... lol

> there ya fuckin go, see? what did i tell ya.

That's literally the point? Malenia wasn't designed to be in Elden Ring. Sister Friede third phase is Maria rehash but in a game with different mechanics. FS didn't even adapted the fight.

These two bosses spefically -- Malenia and Sister Friede (3rd phase) -- are cut content. They shouldn't be there.

Malenia plays Elden Ring thinking is Sekiro and you, the same guy who is playing Bloodborne like DS3/ER, are defending her. How ironic.

> no, it's frustrating because

I'll stop here because there is no more arguments. You are just trashtalking. No real opinions, just the good old "so, the internet hates DS3 and Elden Ring is disappointing, but Bloodborne is a masterpiece? Well, they're normies and I am the GOOD redditor here. Here is the unpopular opinion: DS3 is actually the best one, ER is amazing and Bloodborne is objectively bad comparing to them!"

>  it a lot doesn't mean you're informed on all the stuff you didn't use or properly explore.

I admit that I didn't explored pure strength builds and hyperarmor stuff. But the poise system is still terrible, armors are worse than in Bloodborne, parry is inexistent, dodge-rolls are still broken, enemies are poor designed, and so on.

> he thinks just because DS3/ER kicked his butt that BB is no different but my point has always been that DS3/ER doesn't have to be like that. it certainly can be, but it doesn't have to be.

You are literally gaslighting me LMAO. That's the REAL thing, Adam:

Bloodborne: my favorite. i think it's the best one, mechanically speaking, it's obviously less varied than DS3/ER but also more consistent and skill-based. John disagrees with that and he can't argue without swearing every line. He is very stressed.

Elden Ring: great game, there are some few things that I dislike about the gameplay but my main problem with the game is some bosses and enemies that are bad designed imo

John makes it look like I'm trashing the game but... I literally just talked about Malenia. Malenia is one of my least favorite bosses in gaming, but I don't have a problem with Elden Ring being "different" and i DIDN'T play the game thinking is Bloodborne. John is a liar (and he probably thinks he is fun).

DS3: it's not about difficult, "kicked his butt" is bad wording. I played DS3 like Bloodborne and it was easier than DS1 and DS2 - and more stupid, inconsistent and repetitive.

"but playing DS3 like Bloodborne is a good thing; it's variety of playstyles." Probably yes but this playstyle in specific is broken compared to Bloodborne and I'll not try to convince myself otherwise. "Then, play more and explore more about builds, some mechanics and weapons"... this is not an easy task. this game is not very good, the combat is still problematic for some other reasons, the GRIND is awful (like in every other souls entry), I could find some thing interesting or other in this game, I don't doubt, but this wouldn't make the combat more complex than Bloodborne, more satisfying than Elden Ring or giving my muscle memory back. DS3 is still the same mess as always. I don't have a problem with different options being available; i have a problem with inconsistency.

quality > quantity, in this case

> it's borderline chip damage-- compare to what you can do in DS3 & ER and tell me the damage output in BB is the same.

I refuted you with numbers so I guess this discussion about "gascoigne being unfair" is over. You are wrong. That's it.

With 32 (or less) R1s you can beat Gascoigne. This + visceral attacks, charged R2s, trick and quick attacks, it's literally impossible to deal low damage to him, so, the problem is you.

Everyone who complaints about Gascoigne being hard is about his damage and aggressiveness. Your case is singular.

> then why did i easily beat Pontiff on my first attempt while it took me multiple runs to beat Gascoigne?

A friend of mine beat almost every Bloodborne boss in his first, second or third attempt. It was his first souls-like.

> show me one (1) boss in DS3 & ER that has as much health as the bosses or npcs in BB

that's stupid, unfair and nonsensical. wolnir has 15000 HP but he is a gimmick boss. Abyss Watchers has two different HP bars and Soul of Cinder is the final boss.

the damage output against Gascoigne, for instance, is way higher in comparison to Sulyvahn, Dancer, Lorian & Lothric, etc.

That's not even an argument lmao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnYw9Vs9V0Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo-Sc7ciEgk

So, I'll stop here. You make some good points about these games (and you wouldn't admit yourself that I also have good arguments, because you're childish)

but

> that involves a nice leather couch and a paid professional.

yeah, I disagree with you: i need a therapist. very fair, i suppose

> who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about-- and he knows he doesn't--

yeah, i disagree with you: i don't know what I'm talking about, lol

> by some autistic butthurt mongoloid
> doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about (as if i didn't know that already) and is suffering from PMSD (Post Malenia Stress Disorder), PFSD (Post Friede Stress Disorder)

So, we're doing capacitist, racist and psychophobic jokes now? you are disgusting, amigo

> i think the people can decide for themselves who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.

Average fascist leader behavior

>i have to take a little break after all that bullshit.

Besides all of your disgusting trashtalking and pejorativeness (no, that's not your personality, that's the image of you burning in hell), i think we both (plus Black Adam) can agree that you are wrong in this discussion. Childish and egocentric behavior, gaslighting AND (i kinda didn't expect this) discriminatory jokes/offenses just to elevate your ego. What the fuck, man.

You can try to "correct" or "refute" me whatever you want (and this wouldn't be relevant, since our opinions are based on subjective sensations) but gaslight won't take you far and discussing arbitrarily based on "What you mostly disagree with him? (me)" and "yeah you don't know anything about soulslikes (because your opinion is different) so let's pretend you don't exist" is just awful. The offensive comments about autistic, neurodivergent and mongol people was the nail in the coffin.

Yeah I know I joked about "talking about MATH" because despite I was right about this one... (5 or 6 parries and Gascoigne is dead. 11 or 12 charged R2s and he is dead. something between 29 and 35 R1s and he will. be. dead. and the game is fast, so, if this is your first run, and you play well, you will kill him very quickly. the main problem is his moveset and damage)

...it was harmless jokes and yeah, you can still argue about Gascoigne being unfair to casuals even though now you know he is proportional fair in terms of HP/Resistance. because there is a lot of other factors to consider. I still disagree with you but apparently you don't know how to discuss so w/e lol

Johnny...play nice or it's the corner for you.

Never thought I had to read a literal bible worth of Souls-discussions on this forum but here we are, I think this topic has evolved way beyond the original discussion and I honestly have no clue what to respond to.

I will say this simple thing: play nice. I don't really care if it's a personality or way of talking or if you just like to troll, there's not much places for action-fans to come together to talk shop so keep it real. This isn't towards anyone unless you feel targetted by this comment, in which case, well...then it is. Just play nice.

Otherwise it is indeed the corner for you.



In other news, Elden Ring is getting DLC expansion(s?). No trailers, just a title, but hey it's something.

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