Chatting about games

Near the end the game gets pretty tricky, and honestly your best bet is to know when to use the basic 3-hit kick combo since the stick can be so wonky at times. The end-game is pretty brutal too. Even has a hidden final boss.

Do anyone know the history of term Player agency?

In Korea or Japan, They usually use the term "degree of freedom(自由度)", which makes the conversation complicated. Mostly similar, like Interactivity around world, The builds in RPG genr, Sandbox-type design(including ubi-style open world). But, sometimes it is not proper for specific genre. For example, They see low "degree of freedom" in action-only games like Sifu. Because the combat is your only choice and there is no separate path to choose.

I think that player agency is more accurate and narrow term to use, especially "Agency" part. You are not the game master but a agent so It is allowed by the GM/system. And in social science, Agency is very useful term to describe about individual behaviors based on structure. I doubt that somehow they are connected but I can`t prove. Do anyone have an idea?

Bit of a basic question, but what exactly is dial a combo? I know the dictionary section in this forum defines it, but still don't get the whole picture.

In most contexts I've seen, it's used as a way to talk up DMC (for lacking this) while usually telling others how games like Bayonetta or even Ninja Gaiden (yes) are automatically worse for having this system.

So what exactly does this refer to, and why is it that what DMC offers doesn't count as this, but for the other noted examples, it does? Then again, much of the confusion could be simply owed to people using the term incorrectly.

>So what exactly does this refer to

it's referring to games with longer attack strings, a movelist with tons of strings, and a 'rigid' combat system where you punch them in

>and why is it that what DMC offers doesn't count as this

because DMC's movelist isn't string-heavy, its strings have a small number count (ex. Rebellion's △△△), and the combat system is freeform; it's designed to where your attacks are extremely cancellable and you can fluidly mix-and-match different moves, strings, and movement.

so a basic combo in DMC would be like: first 2 hits of the Rebellion combo, launch with High Time, juggle enemy with handguns, jump and Aerial Rave JC, finish with △

compare that to Ninja Gaiden where you're 'locked in' to 'dialing in' a specific string like XXXXYXXX and that's your attack

i would never call Bayonetter a 'dial-a-combo' game; its movelist may resemble Ninja Gaiden with its many long strings but its combat system is freeform just like DMC.

>much of the confusion could be simply owed to people using the term incorrectly

like you noticed, it's used as a pejorative by DMC fanboys to shit on other games; i've never seen someone use it otherwise, except by Roy in the Dictionary thread as you mentioned. it's a fine/accurate term when you don't add the negative connotation but it's very poisoned.

Yeah it's just a term, but very poisioned by the DMC-teenagers. Like DMC still has them to a degree (cannot access the last hit in TTT without doing the first two inputs, a fact I used to love abusing to mentally abuse people on Gamefaqs), but it's far less the standard. Dante has more 'specials' than movestrings. While Ryu has very few single hit specials (GThrow, FSwallow) and a ton of strings.

This is easily traced back to their origins, DMC having quite a few influences from MvC and Power Stone and Street Fighter, while NG is mostly based on DoA.

>Do anyone know the history of term Player agency?
I only know this term from tabletop games, in the context of players being able to drive the story in different directions, as opposed to just going where the GM leads. Couldn't tell you much more.

I try to avoid "player freedom" or "player expression" when talking about games, because they are really difficult to quantify, and often people can't even tell you what they mean when they say these terms.

>dial a combo
The advantage of dial-a-combo is that canned strings allow you to have a much larger movelist, because you aren't limited by the number of buttons on the controller.

The basic problem with dial-a-combo in action games is that you have a large amount of moves all bottlenecked behind 1 starter. This leads to seeing that 1 attack far more often than the rest of the movelist. The more aggressive the enemies, the more difficult it becomes to use longer strings, which pushes things even harder in the direction of seeing that 1 starter all the time.

In NG, you have only a couple starters but a gargantuan list of enders. In DMC, every move is both a starter and an ender.

Bayonetta is noteworthy in this context because of combo Offsetting. Longer strings are much more reliable and practical because you can now continue them even if interrupted. By the use of empty-cancels, you can skip over the same old starter, or otherwise vary strings by replacing attacks with dodges. Viola takes this to the next level with Block Offset, enabling her to completely skip over one of the moves in a string in just a few frames of animation, so she can cherry-pick any particular attack from any of her strings and use only that attack while discarding the rest of the string if she so desires. I don't care what anybody says, Bayo 3 and especially Viola, is brilliant.

>Block Offset
Amusing. I might check into that business.

> tabletop games
Thanks. Its history could be far more longer than I thought. I wanna dig when I am not busy & report here latter.

>dial combo
Because it's like dialing a phone number. A fixed string of inputs.

So if I understood correctly, it's just, as the name implies, 'dialing' inputs (strings) in order to access moves that can't otherwise be accessed. That would mean Valor and Spirit in GoW (x6 square and x5 square + 1 triangle, respectively) fall into this 'term'. Though I've never really seen anyone calling GoW's string system like this, even by DMC 'fans'.

As for DMC, I take it that this means almost every move can be accessed instantly, whenever you want?

I would ask what is inherently wrong with that system (seeing as that's apparently a deal breaker for DMC fans *particularly 'style' fans*), but this is just one of the many things I will never understand (because their mindset is more often than not, nonsensical). Case in point...

>player expression
This is also something I hear from them a lot, but only their definition of 'expression' (i.e. style) matters (as if playing efficiently isn't another way of 'expression' *and there's a lot of ways to play efficiently to boot*).

>Birdman
You'd think DMC fans would be more fondly of CL, given the explanation about 'dial a combo' (given that you can use Ground Zero without the first 5 square inputs). Ah, but you can't play 'the floor is lava' with another enemy... nevermind, DMC is still tops.

>never seen it
You've not had the pleasure of dealing with /cgg/ers since myself and SBK broke their backs years ago (for the lulz *and GREAT JUSTICE*).

>almost every
Almost. *raffs*

>deal breaker
Those goofs capitulate even for Nero the Zero's grabs these days (always talking about hating not being in control for seconds at a time as with throws *Nero didn't do a good job playing to their mentality at all*). They'll suck off V down the line, too. They're idiots (too many are fujos, homos and glorified casuals too obsessed with a a bastardization of one mechanic *style*).

>only their definition
Just so.

>floor is lava
Was always disgusted when that became a focus. The community at large for them is such dogshit it made it tough to like DMC at all. I want nothing to do with them. They never cleansed their filth. I was always good for crushing fools within the GoW community. Can't do much with the BR goofs speaking babble, however. Those imbeciles blather on about their own weird primitive takes as if totally divorced from the 'old gods' (who still live on with another generation continuing that work). I reject those of that line. They would do well not to proceed with that poisoned mentality. They're no good with it.

>As for DMC, I take it that this means almost every move can be accessed instantly, whenever you want?
For example, here's all the moves for the sword Rebellion in DMC4:

Combo A: YYY
Combo B: Y-YY
Helmbreaker: Aerial Y
High Time: Back+Y
Stinger: Forward+Y
Million Stab: Hold Y during Stinger or Combo B
Round Trip: Charge and release Y
Prop Shredder: BB
Aerial Rave: Aerial BBB
Overdrive: Back+BB
Dance Macabre: Forward+BBBBBBBBBBB (I don't remember how many Bs it is, lol)
Quickdrive: Y+B

The appeal here is the ability to mix and match anything to build your own combo, and to do any move you want any time you want to adapt to situations. You're also able to switch weapons on-the-fly, so in addition to these, you also have full access to all moves of Dante's other 3 melee weapons and his 3 guns, at all times. It's all about freeform open-ended play.

>You'd think DMC fans would be more fondly of CL
Chaos Legion is slow and methodical, you can't rapidly link numerous different attacks into each other the way you can in the latter DMC games. You can do some DMC1-ish stuff in CL, but DMC1 might as well be an entirely different franchise from DMC3/4/5, it had a different director, different devteam, and pretty much has a different fanbase.

>I would ask what is inherently wrong with that system

because you can't style. it all makes sense once you crack the code: when someone is trashing 'dial-a-combo' games they're not really talking about string-based combat, they're talking about the combat system as a whole. the only value of a freeform combat system to them is that they can style, "player expression" means "style", and "dial-a-combo" means "game you can't style in"-- that's all it comes down to. that's the only form of value/depth they understand so action games that don't have that confuses/angers them.

>muh style
Those niggas be gay like that frfr. Beeg fax.

NOTE: And that's why I took such pleasure trolling them for years. SBK did very well to focus on them until they couldn't get him out of their heads.

https://x.com/roytamustdie/status/1783916593669349548?s=46
Raengs famous!

>Raengs famous

"there’s an audience for more unique, small-scale titles"

I`m crying. You are crying. We are all crying. I wanna see how wild Mikami would go.

>JP characters in name
Royboy, pls. *kek*

>Tweet
Damn, Lord Mikami has bestow upon Raeng his grace and glory.

Yeah did not see that one coming. More than the post I was quoting lol.

Hope the message sticks. I really want 3-4 hour 7/10 experimental games back that put Jump on Triangle, Rage on L2 and melee on L3 just because they think it fits their game.

Based Mikami as usual. He probably has one more game in him, hopefully he can have all the creative freedom without suits breathing down his neck.

>being able to mix and match the majority of things
>it's favored only because of style
I should have known. Well, thanks for clarifying, now I have a better picture.

>didn't have the pleasure
Pretty much, though I guess that implies they used the 'dial a combo' card against GoW, given the context. Should have expected that nothing was too low for them.

>Nero the Zero
And I've heard other games (Bayo, NG) are better on the grab aspect, yet none of them are better than GoW. Suppose they didn't take well to hearing about DMC not being the best (let alone a distant fourth or so) at [insert mechanic here].

>V
Already seen a topic in the DMC5 board where someone said V was better than Sieg from Chaos Legion.

>BR goofs
Honestly baffling how divorced they are from the tactical approach. Or even try to invent their own rules (PAIN+ in GoW1). Can't even comprehend what's so bad about an intelligent approach over facing everything head-on, and on the enemies' terms.

>Raeng's post on Mikami
I saw some news several days ago about Mikami opening up about his reasons for leaving, but didn't read all of it. Should have done so, maybe Raeng was mentioned in it.

>one more game in him
Hopefully.

Going to start mass Effect trilogy but before that could someone suggest/advice me on which version of mass Effect trilogy is better/definitive?

Legendary editon or original trilogy

Best way to play them is the original releases. The Legendary version changes many gameplay nuances (aside from graphical overhauls) to the point that a lot of mechanical depth is lost. Shepards shields regenerate for example in 4 seconds now insteal of 6.5, which is a big deal.

I'm also a big proponent of playing ME1 the regular way. I know it feels weird since it's a bit more 'rpg' than the other games, but they do hold up. The Legendary version totally changes the combat.

Enjoy and take your times, and if possible a break between games. It's a fantastic adventure and a big part of my teenage years tbh. Very well written characters and great plot. Just don't be fooled by the 'connectedness'. A lot of it and your choices are VERY superficial and most choices are contained to their own game. If a character can die in one game, he will have a very minor role in the next irregardless, since they couldn't be sure he'd be alive etc (with only one exception).

wow, youre the first person to say buy original trilogy over legendary edition. because i posted the same question post on r/masseffect . yet most people in that post that i made, said to play legendary edition over original trilogy. plus last time i played original mass effect 1 on my pc all i saw was white screen because the game was running above 60 fps (so it was around 120 or above that). it was a very buggy/glitchy experience

Bit of an odd question to ask. Of the following games, which can be played with minimal issues with a keyboard:

- The DMC games.
- ZoE2.
- The PS2 MGS games.
- God Hand.

I ask this because my controller is basically dead (not quite, but it's in a state that's pretty much worse than playing with a keyboard), so that's the only option I have. Yes, I know PS3 controllers (mine lasted me for about 2 years) are very cheap ($10 on here), but getting them where I live is super inconvenient.

If none of them are fit to be played with one, then I may play an RPG instead. Like FFXII or SMT3. Or maybe even Unicorn Overlord, as that one seems really interesting, and looks like something I'd enjoy.

ive played and finished every single dmc game (except for 2) on keyboard on every single difficulty really. its serviceable

zoe2 does not support mouse and keyboard at all

ps2 mgs games, they are awful with keyboard you are better off having another controller if you can

god hand, well you can finish easy mode with keyboard easily. but normal and hard are just different case scenario

Phoenix Wright wrote:Bit of an odd question to ask. Of the following games, which can be played with minimal issues with a keyboard:

- The DMC games.
- ZoE2.
- The PS2 MGS games.
- God Hand.

I ask this because my controller is basically dead (not quite, but it's in a state that's pretty much worse than playing with a keyboard), so that's the only option I have. Yes, I know PS3 controllers (mine lasted me for about 2 years) are very cheap ($10 on here), but getting them where I live is super inconvenient.

If none of them are fit to be played with one, then I may play an RPG instead. Like FFXII or SMT3. Or maybe even Unicorn Overlord, as that one seems really interesting, and looks like something I'd enjoy.

I know someone who primarily plays God Hand with MkB. He says it's way better. I'd never even try it lol but it is playable on MkB yeah.

>which can be played with minimal issues with a keyboard

personally, i can't play any action games on keyboard & mouse, but DMC for sure. a couple of huge benefits: 3-5 on a controller are carpal tunnel speedruns, and 4/5 really takes advantage of a keyboard because of how many keys you have available.

>DMC and God Hand work
>the rest don't
I see. Thanks for the info.

I never tried emulating any game with KB/M nor do I want to, but I can see God Hand working well that way with it's dodge system perhaps mapped to the arrows on the keyboard.

>don't want to try
Understandable, I probably wouldn't even consider it if not for the fact that I already played several PS1 games with a keyboard, so I was able to adapt to playing games like this. And that's how I played Chaos Legion, Viewtiful Joe, and Shinobi.

Take-Two killed OliOli & Rollerdrome studio, Roll7
And also Kerbal Space Program team.

What the hell is going on? Or Do I ask what the hell we are living on???

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/take-two-interactive-shuts-down-two-game-studios

>Already seen a topic in the DMC5 board where someone said V was better than Sieg from Chaos Legion.
And couldn't even articulate why. That's what happens when you don't know shit.

^ Hmmm, yes.

Another question. Are there any platformers in existence where there is also a heavy focus on combat? Mostly 3D, but I guess 2D also counts.

Also, in general, other than Mario, are there any notable 3D platformers? Feel like the amount of great games in that genre can be counted with one hand.

Phoenix Wright wrote:^ Hmmm, yes.

Another question. Are there any platformers in existence where there is also a heavy focus on combat? Mostly 3D, but I guess 2D also counts.

Also, in general, other than Mario, are there any notable 3D platformers? Feel like the amount of great games in that genre can be counted with one hand.

Metroid dread is what you're looking for then. It has like the best combat for a platforming game

>notable 3D platformers aside from Mario
The Jak games and Crash series(4 is especially good).

>platformers with combat
Most would tell you Ratchet and Clank but I don’t even consider them platformers. They’re basic third person shooters.

If we’re going with 2D then Mega Man/MMX and Classic Castlevania are some of the best examples.

Ape Escape is also great, and feels surprisingly good to control as well, even the first game on PS1. Maximo is a great action platformer, really enjoyed it as well.

Klonoa is a great 2.5d option. I also heard the Donkey Kong Country games are fantastic but I never played them.

Wright: >shave have known
Oversights happen.

>used dial-a-combo
And PoP (joining hands with NG on that one). This while both have Items to stock up on.

>others are better
Bayo is very relative to GoW (even SWFU1 isn't too far below *would be quite close were it not for air throw limitations somewhat improved by SWFU2*). Hell, Logan in X-Men:O:W is a grab happy fella, too. Nero is not a high bar and doesn't do a remotely good job being the DMC formula answer to grapples. If he had more control over each part of a grab sequence it would be a different story (cancel when he wants, start where he wants, chain through it how he likes, etc.). It isn't that way, so they get stuck in the same thing they complain about ('long' periods of 'out of the action', 'no gameplay', 'watching a movie', etc.). Only way the matter gets worse is salt in their wounds (toss in some fucking QTE prompts or go CS mini-game style *which they hold against Bayo*).

NOTE: Bayo really is their superior in basically all regards. DO (apparently BO in Bayo3) sets them up to get shit on by that bunch looking down their nose at their inability to get around the few strings they contend with.

>insert mechanic
One they don't even really care for or about (yet still pissy they get just the same). Maybe not if you point out the platforming is inferior in DMC. I think they might cede non-combat things.

>already saw them putting V over the CL guy
HA! HA! Knew it.

>how divorced
They didn't have my guidance. It is like civilization's ruins were found by cavemen as the Tower or Babel fell. They did their best under the circumstances, but have much to learn overall. Not just in old tech, but to advance their thinking (for how they approach things). Precious few were blessed with the necessary quality (English proficiency) to read the runes of the old texts. To commune with elder gods.

>invent their own rules
Heresy.

>head-on
Apply directly to the forehead. But seriously, it is machismo (setting them up for failure). The same SCRUB mentality I shit on Gokeks for. Honor codes and house rules. The sort of people that think 'tricking' is cheating. It is no wonder so many of them think (read: feel) highly of UI (despite being utter nonsense *just repeating a lesson of Popo*).

>MkB HnS
Kek.

NOTE: Had difficulties with a lot of gifs from your document loading, so I put off my process going over it. I'm trying to download it so I can clearly so it (with moving images if possible).

>platformers with combat

Guacamelee, Shinobi (all entries imo, including PS2), classic Ninja Gaiden, Kunoichi, Strider.

>platformers with combat
PoP (and I don't mean Plume).

>notable 3D platformers
Roughly in order of how good I think they are:
Jak trilogy>Pseudoregalia>Banjo Kazooie/Tooie>Sly Cooper 1>Vexx>Crash Bandicoot games>Sly Cooper sequels. I vaguely remember liking Rayman 2 and the Croc games, but not much else about them.

>platformers with heavy combat focus
For 3D platforming, Jak 2 and 3, Shinobi, Nightshade, and the two Maximo games, all on PS2.

For 2D, I could sit here and list games till I develop dementia and start repeating myself. A few lesser known recommendations would be Ninja Spirit, Actraiser 2, and Valdis Story: Abyssal City.

> platformers in existence where there is also a heavy focus on combat

I can suggest 2D

First, Prince Of Persia : The lost crown.  This title is already GOTY in my heart.
Secondly, (Raeng already referred but) I also suggest to play Guacamelee 1 & 2.
Lastly, It is mostly focus on platforming I could suggest Azure Striker Gunvolt 3. You can play it with out knowing previous series. It is more leaning to chain your attacks rather than combo-ing, but satisfying combat anyway.

Okay, I just lost a relatively long reply going into specifics with everyone to a power outage. Don't feel like starting from scratch, so I'll just say that I appreciate everyone's input.

GMG: Thought SWFU1 would be above Bayo on this regard.

Infinity: Mega Man is indeed great. Need to get back to 11. Thought on X6? How are the Zero/ZX games?

>power outage meme lives
Oy vey.

>expected Starkiller to best Cereza in throws
Hard to top when you gotta string to air throw and have no ground to air throw (or air to ground throw). Grip covers a lot of bases, but there is no air use of it. Like in Psy-Ops, lifting ourselves with the Force isn't so much in the cards, but that's another matter. She has magic throws too. CS throws galore. SWFU2 improves his lot a bit, but even multi-rage grip only does so much to cover for the gaps in his grapplan gaem. Still, he's up there.

NOTE: A pity Galen Marek (even with higher upgrades) can't do directional inputs for certain moves after unlocking them (and perhaps paying for another upgrade beyond). He has a lock-on and doesn't care about casuals, so it should have been in the cards to on-demand access such things (not just with dialing).

>Cereza
Don't know who this is. If it's not Bayo or Jeanne, I don't know who is it referring to.

>no ground to air
>no air to ground
>have to string to air throw
Oof.

>no air use to it
A bit confused. You mean you have to use strings, for an air to air throw (since the alternatives aren't present)?

>lifting ourselves with the Force isn't a thing
Safe to assume that this is a thing in canon?

>magic throws
Neat. Different scaling compared to normal throws?

>using directional inputs for on-demand moves
In retrospect, it's very surprising that GoW came out as it is, despite the devs wanting to cater to casuals on some aspects.

>3D platformers with heavy focus on combat
The fact that we still don't have a good action-platformer hybrid is a complete heresy considering that action games (in the modern sense) have almost 25 years.
As others pointed out, the situation in 2D is far better.

>power outage
Zesty's most faithful companions.
I rarely get them these days but I still write long responses in Word just in case.

>Cereza
Bayo's real name.

>The fact that we still don't have a good action-platformer hybrid
Knack 2, though double jump>hover makes it too easy.

>Zesty's most faithful companions
His don't take nearly as long as mine (commonly 3h). Though that's still nothing compared to an outage that happened in 2018-2019 (lasted 72h).

>write long responses in Word
Same, but I haven't had an outage in days, so I let my guard down.

>Bayo's real name
I see.

>Knack 2
Also on the list. Has been for a good while.

https://x.com/underthemayo/status/1787660753404645882?s=46
Oh no…… just give GoW proper a break man…… he won’t even bring up the ps2 version and how superior that is in terms of the combo meter(grab kills based on hit meter were really cool).

>X6
X6 plays like a romhack that somehow got an official release. It's a janky mess with some very questionable decisions, but at the same time it's clearly made with high-level play in mind, and for specifically high-level play I'd argue it's the best or second best X game (it's competing with X8 for that title). 

>How are the Zero/ZX games?
The Zero games are phenomenal, top of the line in 2D action, easily the best games to bear the Mega Man name. Fantastic games to play for rank. The ZX games are great too, but a step down in quality compared to the Zero games.