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201Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:07 pm


I think that's a good point the "Eternal makes you git gud" stuff is actually a detriment in the long run. This doesn't take away that it does have merrit, a good motivation to play well is always good. I mean, just look at Ninja Gaiden. For a lot of players that game is still "Ultimate Technique The Game" since they didn't see a high level player on YT play it and show them how it's done.

In its relegation though, man, I fear for the sequel. I'm half expecting them to put cooldowns on weapons in general by having them 'overheat with the Slayer's fury' or something dumb like that.

> Bosses
Absolutely agree. I have to say that I honestly found the bosses in Doom 2016 superior. The Cyberdemon was a cool chaotic fight, the keybearers a multi-task boss and the final boss used terrain etc. At least they did things (and didn't rely on adds for damage output).

> weapons in vanilla doom
Note that the pistol and chaingun both deal D3x5 damage, but the pistol is infinitely more accurate if you let its animation play out. It is technically your sniper and has its uses. That said, the Plasma outshines it I feel and the levels aren't nearly big enough to warrent its use that much. That said it does have uses imo.
Overall the damage values in Vanilla Doom are just super interesting, like how each pellet of the shotgun is a pistol shot. Lots of 'returning' values that make them perform consistently. Having it be slightly randomized is also interesting, making replays scary.
A shotgun shoots 7 D3x5 shots. If you're lucky that means each pellet deals 15 damage (105 damage if everything connects). If you're unlucky, each pellet deals only 5 (35 damage). That can mean the difference between a dead Imp or a live one since he has 60 HP. The brilliance here is that, as a result, even if you absolutely get unlucky, two shotgun shots will *always* kill an Imp.

God the details in that game.

> secret gun
It's sad that the only use of this weapon is that it benefits from the SpeedBoost's infinite ammo, giving it one encounter where you can use it. Yay.

> TEW + Vanquish
Showing again that it needs to be about more than numbers, you need application. I note this in my re-write of the Vanquish piece, I'm sure you'll find that interesting too (though it's mostly info you already know haha!). Note that I implemented a tease to our TEW article there, I'm working on a small fluff piece now and afterwards I'll contact you again for TEW1.

> what got me thinking about this
I saw a video from Mayo about how "DOom eternal isn't too streamlined" or some bs. I could understand defending a game you love (and in his case, is his primary source of income), but felt his reasons rang hollow so wrote a braindump. The guy is quite defensive and doesn't really reply to comments like Gamingshitshow, so I decided to post it here for the future.

> future
We'll apparently get more info on the DLC soon. I already own them thanks to the season pass so I'll play them, will you?

202Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:10 pm


>NG is UT: The Game
We’ve seen this spouted a lot on YT. I watched some guy “review” the trilogy(don’t remember his name, he kept trying to be funny) and it was another long video devoid of mechanical talk. To me, what happens in NG and other greats in the genre, is you walk away knowing there’s something else there, and you want to know how it’s done. Yeah, you can drip feed healing items and spam UT, but looking at the movelist, seeing the enemies behave differently once they’re delimbed etc, you know there’s a lot going on under the hood. With Eternal, the game literally tells you how to carry out the gameplan in the loading screens, and for the most part, I really didn’t have a lot to learn after two playthroughs.

I don’t know if that made any sense.

>fear for cooldown shilling in the sequel
I’m expecting it. We can’t even carry enough ammo to kill a small group of enemies with one weapon and our grenades are on a cooldown, it’s the next logical step.

>Bosses in 2016 better
100% agree, I’ve thought this since my first encounter with the khan Maykr. Horrible fight. When the game isn’t forcing you into a certain play style, it loves to force you into extreme dexterity, assuming you’re playing on a PC. I don’t really have the skill to weapon swap and aim like competitive Quake players and the final two bosses just come across as bullshit.

>pistol in vanilla Doom
It definitely can be used, I meant more that it doesn’t have quite the sticking power of the other weapons. And yeah, the damage values in the original games are really cool and pretty unique. Normally a game with randomized damage/health can just feel messy(RE2make) but keeping them still in a set of rules makes the game dynamic.

>Vanquish re-write
Oh? Is it up now?

>TEW piece
I’m very much looking forward to it. We need more people to play it. Surprisingly, new players trickle into the EW1 board on GFAQS, and they’re usually very happy with the game.

Heh, I figured. I watched this guy’s vids on the game too, and yeah he’s just a complete shill. He says in his one video that Eternal is better than D16 because it makes you play a certain way that he likes playing D16, while ignoring every problem we’ve said. He is indeed quite defensive as well, he made an entire video defending the Marauder, and while I don’t think the enemy ruins the game by any means, he does always make me go “sigh, another one...”. Just because he can be killed quickly and effortlessly doesn’t mean he’s a good enemy. That guy also made a pretty scathing video about RE3make where he criticized the absolute weirdest things, ignored actual problems, and gave the game no credit whatsoever. I’m all for being critical to get a better product next time, but we have to be fair and acknowledge what the game does right(quite a few things). Conversely, he can never says anything bad about Eternal...

Does he still exist? That guy is...something. I’ll leave it at that.

>play the DLC
Certainly. Like I said, I’m very critical of the game but I still enjoy it immensely. Unfortunately I think that the game industry is at the point where devs and their projects are too large, and games always end up being bloated with things that drag the entire product down.

203Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 12, 2020 9:37 pm


I think I know which review you mean of NG, I do understand that some people will think "hey, there's probably more to this game but I just suck", but those will be the rarity. Especially those that reach Master Ninja and just get absolutely creamed. Don't know if you saw it but this is a fantastic NG review, one of the few:

> gameplan
The second I got pop-ups before a boss telling me how to kill them my jaw dropped. Never saw that before.

> Khan Makyr
Having just one way to actually hurt her makes zero sense, let alone it being tied to grapple-range. I cannot understand how we got the Griffin fight in 2001 and this in 2020. DMC1's Griffin fight could've been copy pasted here and it would've worked better.

> Vanquish re-write
It's up, front and center! Here's the link:
Happy reading :)

> randomized damage
The damage was never the issue in RE2 imo, it was the stagger. Enemy reactions need to be predictable I feel, lest you get...a unique scenario.

> mayo RE3
Watched that one two, real headscratcher. Guy's okay but you know he's shilling. You know the second people start doing it for the money things get iffy. Firma saw a sneakpeak of Charlie's upcoming video on Killzone and said he never heard him sound more bored. Apparently the veterans of Rachet and Clank made a critique of Charlie's criqitue and he didn't respond favourably to that.

Guess once you shill out, you just lose something. Speaking of which you know what would look good on you:

> TEW1
The subreddit is a mixed bag, I'd say avoid that and stick to Gfaqs. Just a headsup since you might have overlooked it, but I made a write-up in the TEW1 thread on the interview with John Johanas. Made for interesting reading.

204Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:53 pm


That was a very solid review. Sort of the kind thing I was going to so for the games I wanted to review, just string some clips together from my capture card but get the thoughts out there. Maybe one day.

>griffin fight
I think this just shows the difference you get from a team/director with legitimate talent vs a team/director with a good heart but is misguided.

Sweet, will check it out shortly, one of the best games ever deserves a proper write up.

>Charlie never sounding so bored
That’s crazy to imagine, his video on REmake was more horrifying than the game itself. He hasn’t made a fun video in years, really sad. And the comments on his channel are just...ugh.

>what would look good
That it would! I’m actually a fan of buying accessories/apparel for lesser-known titles so I may do that.

>TEW1 subdeddit
I avoid Reddit at all costs honestly. More and more I’ve found there’s just so very few places for discussion.

205Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:28 am


> that would look good
It was just a joke about being a sell-out since that's a shirt I made for the Stinger Magazine shop haha Razz

> griffin
Just so many little details, like how he can open his guts at certain points for bonus damage (a part the HD remaster ruined). Think you nailed it with "Good heart but misguided". I loved Hugo, but after Doom Eternal he also fell victim to having seen others play his game.

> REmake
Didn't watch it after hearing how terrible it was.

> comments
Fanboying for the Dante Memes I assume?

> Reddit
You're not missing much. The NG-reddit is great mostly though.

206Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:49 am

Lee Yin

Lee Yin
Hi, I am new to this community, and not sure if this is a proper way to reply, but whatever XD My English is not that good, so sorry for that Sad

While I agree Doom Eternal 'forces' you to weapon switch, glory kill etc., that does not make a game automatically bad, or even 'too restrictive'. Every games forces you to do specific thing in order to beat the game, and those specific things vary from game to game. For example, Ninja Gaiden forces you to press the block button every single time except when you are attacking or charging for UT, DMC forces you to weapon switch, use various combo attacks that game provides, and not use any items in order to get a high rank at the end of the mission. RE 4 forces you to manage the inventory and don't let you shoot while moving. These things, especially RE 4 not letting you do move and shoot at the same time, are very restrictive compared to modern games. So does that make those games 'too restrictive'? No, at least that's what I think. Every parts of RE 4 is designed around the fact that you can not move and shoot at the same time, the level design, the enemy design, the pace of the game, the weapon variety etc., and same goes to Doom Eternal. Doom Eternal forces you to weapon switch, glory kill for health and blood punch, flame belch for armour, and chiansaw for ammo. But because the game is designed around those aspects, they are not too restrictive by any means.

In 2016, you basically don't glory kill at almost any circumstances because it was high risk low to none reward play. The game only gives you 5 health back when you are above 50 or something health. It does give you more health when you are below 50, but you get more health back when you kill the enemy anyway if you are below 50 so there is no reason to use a glory kill, especially at Nightmare and UN difficulty. But in DE, you can dash right after you perform a glory kill to get out of danger, and you get more health back even though your health is above 50, so it is actually a useful tool you can use. Plus you can charge your blood punch with glory kill, so there are more reasons to use glory kill. Even though you can dash away from the danger easily, you are still using your dash charge to do that, and you can be surround by enemies which will prevent you from dashing away, so there is a risk to a glory kill.

Also, enemies actually deal less damage in DE compared to 2016. Imps dealt like 50? 60? damage in 2016, which made them literally the strongest enemies in the game. They can just snipe you at your blind sight and you won't even notice. And DE also has this hidden rule, that whenever you are above 40(50? Not sure.) health, you just never get one-shotted by any attacks. Even if the projectile that just hit you has 60 attack damage, the game lets you live with 5 health.

And you basically cannot do anything about armour in 2016. Armour packs that are lying here and there on the level is practically the only source of armour. There is no way to replenish them actively. But in DE you can replenish them actively by using flame belch. You can even turn your camera around to burn more enemies and get more armour back, which requires some skills. You can replenish your stamina way faster by holding certain shield or consuming certain item in Dark Souls, but all of those methods are passive, and does not require you any skills. But in Nioh, you can actually produce Ki by using flux I and II actively. Forcing you to actively produce something in order to play the game better is what makes every good action games good.

You claimed that 2016 had fuel-management but DE does not, which honestly I cannot agree. You do have to manage your fuel while managing your ammo at the same time in DE. There is no heavy demon you can chain saw with 2 charges of fuel, so you have to decide between two choices. Will you use various weapons efficiently to use your 3 charges of chain saw against certain heavy demon(Mancubi, Arachnotron etc.), or will you just chain saw the fodder to get more ammo back? This fuel management becomes way more important on UN difficulty, because there are certain enemies in certain mission that are too threatening so you have to chain saw them right away. Yes, you don't have to manage your fuel at the later stage of the game because you can melt any enemies with your arsenal, but 2016 is nothing different.

Now, I know you are not claiming DE is bad just because it forces you to do glory kill, weapon switch, and chain saw, and you have more solid reasons to back up your argument, such as it restricting high skilled player's freedom. But with all due respect, I couldn't disagree more with those claims. Doom 2016 is more of a bare boned shooting game. You move constantly, dodge projectiles, and shoot enemies in there face. You are provided with various options you can use them in a combat, but those options are not that different with each other because of how simple Doom 2016's structure is. You shoot and move, that is all you do in this game.

I am not saying Doom 2016 is a bad game. It is a great game, but more like a great foundation that game devs can build upon. Doom Eternal built upon 2016 by adding more interesting options and way better enemies. You have more movement options, such as meat hook(combing meat hook with jump/wasd, you can have so much freedom.), dash, and monkey bar. You have more management options such as flame belch for armour, glory kill for health and blood punch. Just look at any high level DE players. They fight way more freely compared to 2016. Yes, DE is easier than 2016, but that does not mean the skill ceiling is lowered. You still have to use every weapons/equipments/movement options to beat the game on Nightmare/UN, and to me, this is a beauty of DE. It does force you to use everything, but is using everything means you have less freedom? No. It means every options are actually meaningful now, and you can build your own playstyle upon those options. I play DE very aggressively by getting close to the enemy and fight like as if this is a melee action game. This is because I have very bad aiming, but I can compensate it by using your flame belch and grenades in more effective ways, such as turning your camera to burn more enemies.

And about weapon mods. I agree some mods are useless, and some weapons overlaps. You have no reason to use auto fire mod on combat shot gun, micro missile mod on heavy rifle. And Gaus overlaps the precision bolt mod in some ways. But except the auto mod and micro missile mod, every weapons and mods are useful. Sure, Gaus overlaps the precision bolt in some ways, but you still need to use precision bolt to deal more damage in a short amount of time by using weapon switching combo. Also, Gaus has a recoil which makes Gaus way different to precision bolt. You can use a recoil to get away from the danger, move way faster to certain direction without using a dash charge. I don't get the comparison of Gaus and RPG. They are completely different weapons. One has way slower projectile speed and higher spread damage, the other has a huge recoil with way faster projectile speed and less spread damage. And micro missile don't overlaps with RPG. It overlaps with the chain gun.

Plasma gun is not pointless at all because of how powerful the mod is. It is basically a blood punch without actually consuming your blood punch charge. I am not sure why would you think plasma gun is useless.

Two shotguns are completely different as well, because of the mod. Sticky bomb mod of combat shotgun is such a great mod which has a faster projectile speed and good enough spread damage. Super shotgun has way stronger normal attack, and the mod(which is a meat hook) provides you so much movement options.

You said you combined all the weapons and lost nothing of value one could argue, but here I am arguing with you. With all due respect, I think you have to play DE more to notice the difference between those weapons, mods, and understand the freedom DE gives to you. I really liked your articles on your webzine. I can see how much time you've spent to understand and study those games to write those reviews. But I don't think you have spent the same amount of time and effort to study DE.

207Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:20 pm


>RE 4 forces you to manage the inventory and don't let you shoot while moving

I get what you're saying, but I don't think RE4's movement is an accurate comparison. Saying it forces you to stand still while shooting would assume you could actually move, and certain situations force you to stand still and aim.

Within combat, you have tons of freedom in how you use your weapons.

208Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:49 pm


Hey Lee, cool to see you here! Didn't think you'd make an account haha, be welcome. No worries about the English, by the looks of it it's going just fine :) Please note that everything I said is meant in good will and not with anger or frustration. Just two guys talking about a few games!

> forcing you
I think there's a difference between forcing and suggesting. In NG holding block is a big suggestion, but if you don't you can play in other ways i.e. more offensive, i.frame usage etc. DMC allows you to switch weapons and the combat is far more fluid if you do so, but if you don't the game still works (see also: single weapon runs). Doom Eternal really forces you though in my eyes. If you don't do the intended gameplay-loop of weapon-switching, using fuel for ammo refills etc you'll just hit a wall. Not that that's bad, but in the end it does lead to more restrictive gameplay I feel.

In RE4 standing still while shooting is more a gameplay choice, but it doesn't force a playstyle. You can still play defensive or agressive.

If we use RE4 as an example if would be that ammo-pickups are less and the only way enemies would drop ammo was if you killed them with a Kick. Because "otherwise people might not use that cool kick". That's how Doom Eternal feels to me. Or Birdman's example that you can move, but whenever an enemy appears you suddenly cannot - that is restrictive.

> glory kill in 2016

Agreed it was low-reward with a high risk, but to then force a player to use said mechanic because "it wasn't good enough before" is a bad foundation for a designchoice I would argue. You'd be better of noting "it doesn't work" and figure out a better mechanic or method of getting those cool kill-animations. I think just having a short burst of i.frames afterwards alone would've sufficed. The dash-implementation already helps a lot as a result as well.

> no way to replenish armour in 2016
There are a runes that allow you to generate armour, namely Armoured Offensive. There's also the Siphon Grenade which of course has a cooldown.

This begs and interesting question though about what Armour is for. Because in Doom Eternal it feels like just another healthbar that is generated by another resource. Say that the Flamebelch now gives health, but our maximum healthbar is changed from 200 to 400. What, mechanically, would be the difference? Not a lot barring some minor details. IIRC armour does not give passive damage-resistance like the Blue Armour in the vanilla games did for example.

In Doom 1 and 2, and 3 to an extent, Armour was a bonus collectible that rewarded exploration with some added survivability. Here it's just another resource that feels like clutter to me.

> fuel management
It has it, but not nearly at the level that's present in 2016 imo. Partially maybe because it is such a good way to replenish ammo now, while that was more a secondary function in 2016, with its OHKO ability being far more powerful. You had a lot of strategizing in that game, do you use pips to kill a ton of weaker foes? A few strong foes? Or one super strong foes? What about through the entire level?

In D:E on my runs I would always save the three-pips for the Arachnatrons in Mission 1 since you're still pretty weak, especially on the NUR run. But the second you get an extended arsenal you're way overgeared and it takes a backseat to the Crucible for higher end enemies, while 3 pip enemies are usually way easier to nuke regularly. As a result you tend to just stay at one pip to keep a steady stream of ammo going. Doesn't help though that the Crucible is terribly balanced upon replays with earlier stages not having refills.
Feel those two could've easily been combined into one option.

> D16 vs DE
Doom is indeed move-and-shoot, but I feel that Doom Eternal does the exact same with fancier window-dressing if you get me. The former didn't require you to play in a certain way, unless you wanted to make your life easier (akin to DMC or NG, where good players play a lot more versatile), while the latter really pushes its playstyle constantly.

I feel a lot of the little things were good additions, the swingpoles, more portals during fights, less 'locked in arenas', no OHKO pits, the optional fights, exploration - they all were massively expanded upon, same with the level design which is leaps and bounds better, both in terms of game layout but also in how they look and feel. As a 'game' I feel Eternal is the perfect sequel that improves on nearly everything (though I hate the 'event' stuff). Just feel the combat took a mechanic step back and also didn't fix a lot of the original's combat issues.

The meathook is also fantastic (as I noted before) and honestly should just get its own button. Do feel the movement speed could use a little boost, if only just a little.

I disagree that the enemies are better, there are just more of them but there's again a lot of overlap. What is, mechanically, the difference between the Hell Knight, Baron and Dread Knight? They are both tanky rushers. The only real difference is that projectile, which is rarely used for that matter. I think the game could've really benefitted from the more creative designs like the Carcass which I really consider one of the best new foes in Action games.

Putting up a shield to block mobility, but also being able to weaponize said shield, fantastic. More of that please, and less "it's an Imp but he flies sometimes" if you get me.

> you still have to use everything on N/UN
Never had that feeling personally. I haven't done UN since I don't like Permadeath playstyles, same with zero-damage runs etc. But on my numerous Nightmare runs and later NUR I could easily stick to my favourites i.e. Grenade Launcher, Sniper Shot, Shield, Homing Missile and Heatwave. The latter rarely seeing use after the Gauss enters the fray due to shared ammo reasons. On NUR the Gauss was my lifeline.

I just don't see the point of a lot of the overlap. Sure the Sniper Shot and Gauss shot have different damage values and speed-values, perhaps some recoil, but does that justify taking up a slot? They are mechanically identical: high damage, precise, instant limb removal.

You see the same in Vanquish with its Assault Rifle, Boost Rifle and Heavy Rifle. Yes, they have very minor differences in accuracy, recoil, ammo clip, firing speed - but they do the exact same thing. If the game was tweaked a bit more, they could've removed two weapons, freeing up two slots.

Why not combine them and open up more creative options? Compared to games like Painkiller, Vanquish and The Evil Within this game seems severly lacking in the more creative weapon departments.

That's more where that part comes from. Some mods are fun though, like the shotgun-mod that generates shotgun ammo, just under tweaked and needs too much commitment to actually upgrade (the upgrade system is another can of beens imo).

> plasma gun
It's an HMG without hitscan. The only reason it is worthwhile is the Heatwave, but even then you're far better off using a regular Gauss shot for high damage. But using other options is cool, that said, if we were to give that mod to another weapon, would the Plasma still have a reason to exist? I admit it has a lot of staying power at the start sure, but feels like missed potential, especially without the stunbomb.

I think what's a big issue in this discussion is that you're looking at my comments in "what if we change it in the game as I say it", but I'm talking more about "what if they changed this at the start of the game's development".

If we make the changes I suggested now, the game would crumble of course, since it is designed around what's in there. Remove the Plasma Rifle, and Chapter 2 is a lot harder especially on N/UN. But mechanically speaking, there's no big difference between the Plasma and HMG. And something like the Heatwave, a 'shockwave' after firing for a long time with a damage boost afterwards, could easily be relegated to something like the Chaingun I'd say.

> shotgun
Conceptually speaking then, why are there two shotguns? What is mechanically the difference in outcome when you pull their triggers? One is a close combat weapon with high stagger, the other is a close combat weapon with high stagger. The only difference is firingspeed, recoil etc. If we were to remove the starter shotgun, and give its mods to the Super Shotgun (and then relegate the hook to a seperate button), would we miss it? Would people say "darn, I really wish there was another shotgun with a slightly less big spread"? I doubt it. I already had this problem with DOOM2 personally in terms of the two shotguns.

This methodology would work in more 'military' shooters, where each gun only has one purpose (kill) like for example Call of Duty, where the game is swarmed with weapons that all have minor handeling differences. And that works for games like that. But in a title like F.E.A.R, Quake, DOOM and Painkiller I feel each weapon is a tool and needs to really add something to my kit. Not something I already have you know?

I have the same issue with RE4 to an extend, especially with its Shotguns. The pistols tend to have enough different focuses like the Punisher being a piercing weapon and the Handgun having good headshots, playing to different strengths for instance. But once you look at the shotgun they are all the same barring some spread and damage values - they are all high-stagger, high knockback weapons that deal damage. You see the same problem in its Broken Butterfly and Killer7, though the latter does require less of a financial investment so you can sort of use that as an excuse, but they are still just numerical differences instead of gameplay differences.

> play more

I feel I've played enough Doom Eternal (about 8+ nightmare runs, on NUR, some regular chapter testing), but not enough 2016 honestly. I had hoped this discussion would open some eyes for me but honestly I'm really trying, but I cannot find myself seeing your points currently.

Reading the above, I'm curious on your take!

209Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:11 pm

Lee Yin

Lee Yin
@Birdman wrote:>Within combat, you have tons of freedom in how you use your weapons.

Yes, and that is same with Doom Eternal. I just brought RE 4 to make a point that restricting you to do something is what every games do. I had no intention to say RE 4 is too restrictive.

210Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:51 pm

Lee Yin

Lee Yin
Thanks for a long reply! While you said NG suggest you to block and not forces, you still cannot beat the game without blocking. It is just how the game works. Yes, you can use I-frames, be more offensive etc., but you just cannot beat every combat sequence without pressing the block button. And you also have to press the block button to cancel your combo. I think that is pretty damn close to forcing.

You can beat DMC with single weapon, sure, but can you get S rank with only one weapon? DMC is a scoring game, and getting a high score is everything. I am pretty sure you cannot get S rank on every mission with only a single weapon on DMD. Sure, you can 'beat' the game with a single weapon, but DMC is not about just beating something. It is about getting a S rank.

But ok, let's just say NG 'strongly suggest' you to use a block, even though you just cannot beat the game without using it. But what I don't understand is that, a person saying blocking in NG is just a strong suggestion is also saying DE forces you to glory kill. You can beat DE without using any glory kill, even the master levels. I have tried and succeeded. It is just a good option you can choose, a strong one, but not a forced one. But you cannot beat NG without blocking entirely, and you cannot get S rank on DMC DMD without any weapon switch(I am not entirely sure about this, but I think you can't. If I am wrong, I'm sorry XD)

And yes, we can definitely say DE forces you to weapon switch. But it never forces you to do 'specific' weapon switch. You can SSG - Balista - SSG, but you can also SSG - HMG - SSG - Bali, SSG - RPG - HMG - Bali, SSG - meat hook into a sky - aim downward with chain gun(this makes you very safe even though you are using a mod that makes your movement slow), SSG - Bali away from the enemy you are shooting at - RPG without taking any spread damage, and I can go on and on. Sure DMC forces you to weapon switch, but that does not mean it makes the game restrictive. It actually makes the game more 'free'. And in some extent, DE's weapon switch has way more freedom on K&M because you can switch a weapon in any order without any delay, while you can only dial your weapon in DMC.

I brought up RE 4 just to make a point that restricting something does not make a game too restrictive to have a freedom. RE 4 is very restrictive with tank controls and forbidding moving and shooting at the same time. But as the other guy said, you still have so much freedom to choose your weapons/grenades/level gimmicks etc. to use against enemies.

We can also say DE forces you to use a chain saw, because it is just impossible to beat it without chain sawing anything. But, that does not forbid any playstyle. You just have to use weapons more efficiently, and chain saw every 30 secs. That is it. Oh, yes, it forbids the gameplay that is sticking to a single weapon, sure. But is using a single weapon really that 'free'? I don't think there is any freedom of playing in using a single weapon. It is actually way more restrictive gameplay style compared to using every weapons, isn't it?

NG forbids the gameplay that does not block in MN, or even lower difficulty. So does that mean NG does not have freedom of play and too restrictive?

About the glory kill again, you can still beat the game without using any glory kill, except where you are suppose to use a glory kill at the start as a tutorial. You can even beat the bosses without using glory kill. I still don't think not using a glory kill is a great way to play a game, because of how good glory kill actually is in DE compared to 2016, but you can still play it without it. So by your standard, that means DE is not forcing you to use a glory kill at all.

Oh and I forgot about the runes in 2016, sorry for that. My bad. But those options are not as interesting as a flame belch. And yes armour in DE is just an another health bar generated by another resource. But the fact that it is generated by another resource just makes it different with health bar. You glory kill to get health, and you flame belch to get armour. It wants you to do two completely different moves to produce two completely different resources, so I don't think armour is just another health bar. And yes it would be different flame belch gives health but the maximum health bar is 400, because you don't get armour back when you kill an enemy under 50 health, but you do get health back. That makes a huge difference, because armour is something you have to use a flame belch, while health ain't something you have to use a glory kill to produce.

Doom 1 is about exploration. It is way closer to a Dungeon RPG than any other FPS games. Doom 2 is a standard of FPS games even to this day, by having way more enemies and large arenas, so it leaned more towards to an action game, not RPG. But it still had exploration aspect. Doom Eternal, however, is not a Dungeon Crawler, so the exploration does not have to play an important role. But DE still rewards your exploring with hidden skill points etc.

>Fuel management

Like, let's be real here. Fuel management in 2016 is nothing important even on UN difficulty. Sure, you can 'manage' it, but it does not require any skills or careful 'management'. Same goes to DE's fuel management of course, but I don't get why you think it is such a big deal. choosing between the choices such as 'using it to a weaker foes or strong foes or not using it' is a strategic decision, yes, but, like, choosing between eating a hamburger with onions or hamburger with pickles is a strategic decision to your health as well. To me, fuel management is just as deep as that decision. You can call it a management of course, but it is a very shallow management and adds almost no value to a game.

And you are still suppose to manage your fuel even after the mission one in DE. The first encounter with Mancubi is really dangerous, so you would want to chain saw it, or the whiplash etc. And I agree Crucible is a bad weapon, but Crucible is more like a BFG that can be used to a single enemy, not a chain saw. You cannot chain saw a cyber demon or Archvile. But you can BFG or Crucible them.


Every enemies in 2016 overlaps with each other except Summoner, Baron, Pinky and shield guy.(But Pinky overlaps with a shield guy so...) They shoot and move. That is it. No special moves, and no specific AI patterns. In Doom Eternal, each of the enemies counters player's certain move, playstyle, skills, weapons etc. Whiplash counter the meat hook/dashing forward and they have every thin hit boxes and even slithers, so they are very hard to hit. Caco Demons are really dangerous in close range and mid range so you have to kill them first. Pain Elemental is a flying carrier which is slow but very aggressive with Lost Souls attacks and has tons of health. Archvile summons tons of enemies and even totem buff them. Baron of hell has dangerous long range attacks and even more dangerous close range charge attacks with tons of health. Doom Hunter has a shield you can break with a plasma gun, but you can hit his lower body to deal damage to him. When Cyber Demon is present, there is no safe zone. It always threatens you with long range attacks. So they are like a turret in SC1. Mancubus has a huge projectile and rapid ground slam attack, but has a slow movement speed. Cyber Mancubi and Pinky can be countered by using a blood punch, but they are very dangerous in a close range, so if you don't plan carefully you will get killed. Carcass counters your rocket launcher spamming and blocks your dash/meat hooks/glory kills. Prowler always teleports behind you and Arachnotron has rapid fire attacks and dangerous grenade attacks. Dreak Knight has a huge AOE charge attacks which makes them way more dangerous than Barons in certain circumstances. They are all different. They have great AI and characteristic attack patterns. DE's enemy roster is the best roster I have ever seen in action games. They are like a chess piece. They are very weak on 1 on 1, but when they get together, they get very dangerous because every one of them counters and blocks player's certain weapons/skills/grenades/glory kill/blood punch etc.

>HMG Gaus
Yes, it justifies for taking up another slot, because recoil makes a huge difference. Recoil can be either an advantage or disadvantage. Precision bolt can either be better than a Gaus, or worse than a Gaus because of the recoil. DMC 4 has some what 'same' skills at a glance, but their hit box and attack timing is slightly different to each other. But that slight difference is good enough to make them different. Recoil is even more so.

I haven't played Vanquish for a while so I cannot remember that much, but don't those weapons have different melee attacks? I am not sure.

>Plasma Gun
HMG is not a hit scan. Precision bolt is a hit scan, but HMG isn't. You can clearly see the projectile which is quite slow. Also, the mod makes a huge difference. You have to attack certain amount of time in order to use a blood punch-ish mod, while you don't have to with HMG.

What I'm saying is that, those weapons you claim that can be combined together because they have just a slight difference, actually have a huge difference with each other. There is a huge difference between Plasma and HMG, and Bali/Precision bolt. Chaingun already have a mods that are both useful and it spends different ammo with Gaus/Plasma, so I don't think it is a good idea to replace Chain gun's mods to a shockwave.

There are two shotguns because there are two different mods that can be used instantly without changing the mod. That is a good enough reason, isn't it? The game wants you to use a meat hook instantly without changing a mod. Those two shotguns are different enough just because they have different mods that simply cannot be combined into a one weapon without sacrificing something important. Actually, if you just give combat shotgun's mod to a SSG and 'forces' you to change between two mods, that would have made the game 'too restrictive'. Doom Eternal's weapons does adds something to your kit.

211Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:09 pm


Interesting points! I think I see a bit more clearly what you mean now. I do feel we still approach it from two different angles, for instance you mention the enemies in 2016 having overlap as a defense for the enemies in Eternal, and that's absolutely fair, but my point was that Eternal should have taken the oppertunity to fix this mistake. There's absolutely overlap in Doom 2016, worse, I'd say there's only four enemies in the game: shield dudes, big guys, imps and guys with guns. They are a lot less intricately designed than DOOM 1 (or 2)'s foes I feel.

> in DMC S-rank is the goal
Sad, but true. I miss the challenge DMC1 and 3 had. That series really went a lot easier.

> no block run Ninja Gaiden
IIRC a dodge-only run has already been done in NGII, I think by NxSpace, though he did skip a lot of fights and abused the hell out of UT loops and Ninpo, healing items too ofc. NGB has had NDR (no dodge run) and NBR(no block run)'s done as well, though with that one I'd have to really start searching who did it. I remember I did one in NG2004 out of curiocity. Mechanically speaking I cannot think of a fight where you couldn't make it through without a block. I think ironically taking the jump away would be more impactful since that's our key mobility there.

That aside, I'm going into that point way too much haha!

The point in question was: Doom Eternal restricts players with its desire to force a playstyle. You mention freedom in the weapon-switch, in the sense that you can switch freely and that's a good point. But by putting a playstyle in your face I feel that I'm playing a way that the game puts me in, because I have to. In Doom 2016, if I didn't want to go weapon switching, I didn't have to. Here you have to (ammo being one reason). If I want to save my chainsaw for a later fight, it might not be possible since I *need* ammo here. It feels a lot more directed, that there's a puppetmaster behind me pulling the strings telling me how to play, while D2016 was more "do whatever the fuck you want".

For example, say we grab Ninja Gaiden II, a game we both adore. You can play it the way JTB is doing currently in his guide series and just chain UT from one foe to the next. Or you can go the style of ShowR. Let's say Hugo Martin now directs Ninja Gaiden 3, and he wants the ShowR method to be there. UTs are now tied on a cooldown or give massive penalties to dissuade frequent use, GTs no longer are a guaranteed delimb against walls and enemies now take bonus damage after being stuck by a shuriken to motivate players to play the way ShowR does.

On the one hand, players like you and me, we'd barely notice since we were playing that way anyway. We rarely use UTs, always use Shurikens and GT is a last resort etc. But the second we break that mold, suddenly we realize options we had or styles we could use, are gone. That's a bit how this feels to me. Doom Eternal isn't restrictive stand-alone, but compared to Doom 2016 it is to me.

> DE doesn't force glory kill
Hm. Fair point! I always felt I needed it to replenish health and also later my Bloodpunch (tied resource). Though you can make the argument that the augmented freeze grenade fills that slot too since BP isn't a main tool.

We had a topic about the cooldown system a while back here, and how we felt it would be better if it used a meter-based system like in Vanquish or Zone of the Enders - what's your take on that? I'm personally never a big fan of Cooldowns in action-games to begin with.

> fuel management wasn't important
True, but it is available and it was a resource to manage. It rewarded planning (limited pips per chapter), knowledge of the map and its enemies, gave a little layer of split second decision making (do I chainsaw the summoner, or save the pips for later incase I need ammo). A lot of that felt gone here, also because fuel seemed a less occuring resource since the first pip always regenerates. To me that's a step down. The game doesn't suddenly crash and burn because of it, but it is a mechanic that lost some of its fire, especially with the Crucible also being added to it.

> you cannot chainsaw an archvile
My point exactly, you should be able to if you had enough fuel and planned accordingly. That's a lack of freedom, the chainsaw is no longer a kill tool, it's an ammo generator (for the most part).

> crucible is bad
We agree! Haha, again, don't take this bad please, I know English isn't either of our main languages so maybe some tones get lost in translation, but I hope we both mean well :)

But yeah the last thing I felt the game needed was another OHKO tool, especially that late in the game. On my NUR in both games I felt that the game really started to get worse in quality after you get the BFG, as the game's layout seems to heavily compensate by spitting out tons of enemies.

> difference in weapon
I think this is where we differ the most, I've had a big (and sadly, very angry) argument with the DMC community at a time about Dante's moveset in 4 and how I felt that a lot could be removed. Sure you miss out on some nuance, but I'd rather see moves with minute changes be replaced with something even more crazy. It's like having Enma's Fang and the Ecyplise Scythe in NGS2. Sure they're both great, but do we really need both in the same game? I'd rather have seen something totally unique, you know what I mean?

> Vanquish weapons
There's a few melee attacks that are shared, but you make a good point. Still, they are just damage dealers. You point, press the button, deals damage. Vanquish doesn't have a damage-over-time tool for instance, like a Flamethrower. Would've prefered to see something like that instead of another machine gun, its other weapons like Disc Launcher, Pistol, LFE and Lock on Laser were a lot more unique and fulfilled different roles. That's more my point. This is also why I love Ninja Gaiden II so much, each weapon feels unique enough to warrent their existence with their unique focus in design.

> HMG isn't hitscan
IIRC the bullet is purely a visual effect? Pardon if incorrect, but in that case the only mechanical difference between it and the Plasma Gun are even more gone in my eyes.

> You don't have the heatwave with HMG
Yes, you don't, but that's what I mean with "conceptually". If we were at the drawing board while the game was being made, how could we have changed it to free up space and remove 'doubles' while keeping the mechanics in tact while adding weapons in with added mechanics (i.e. flamethrower, shield-generator like carcass, mine-placer, gravity gun, stake-gun)? That's what I was talking about! You mention the same argument with the twin shotguns. I ask again, what if (so hypothetical) there was only one shotgun and it had a big damage shot with high stagger, its two mods, and the meathook was a seperate button. What would be lost?

Because as you note, the meathook needs to be easily accesible and the only reason I feel it is on the SS is due to button shortage on the console-controller (a valid argument). But other than that, what do we lose? A difference in spread and range and some damage values? It will hardly be missed I feel.

> replace chaingun's mod
Hypothetical idea:

HMG's regular fire = Chaingun
HMG first mod = shield
HMG second mod = shockwave

The sniper shot can be relegated to the Gauss again if needed, or have the gauss's laser tweaked in that they perform the similar function (long range high damage round). Seeker missiles can go to the RPG I feel, or any other weapon with an open slot (like a hypothetical new weapon, perhaps a flamethrower or gravity gun etc.) The Gunturret Mod for the Chaingun is just 'more faster damage', mechanically speaking it is as dry as it gets. The regular HMG shot loses all viability anyway when you get Plasma and Chaingun (outside of ammo shortage perhaps).

You should also remember, for the things we remove, we free up space for newer and better options. Compare it to Painkiller where pretty much each weapon and alt-fire is unique mechanically speaking. I miss that in Doom Eternal (and also 2016), and also plenty of other games. There's always filler, or weapons that are just in there because it is cool. I mean, two shotguns, sure, why not? I mean I love pump-action and I love double-barrel, so why not both? But mechanically speaking, I feel it is redundant.

Painkiller's weapons for example, behind | is the secondary fire.

The Painkiller: a blade, low damage but hits multiple enemies | secondary fire shoots the blade away and everything between it also takes damage

Shotgun: high damage close range weapon | freeze shot, stuns foes and allows for bonus damage/OHKO

Stakegun: high damage projectile with trajectory, can pierce enemies, deals more damage the longer it is in the air (rewarding skill shots) | grenade launcher (note you can shoot the grenade with the stake for massive bonus damage, fun combo).

RocketChaingun: fires rockets, high damage with splash and no detonation delay like the grenade launcher that it shares ammo with | chaingun, just what it says, shoots things and hurts them.

Electrodriver: shoots shurikens that deal more damage the further they fly, basically mini stakes | shoots lightning at a single target for high continous damage, can be released to fire a huge chain lightning for group damage but with high recovery.

Honestly, that feels a lot more creative and also covering more options than Doom Eternal's weaponset (or 2016), more streamlined as well. The only double I feel is present in the Electrodriver, then again it shoots shurikens and lightning so it is pretty badass and it is a good crowd-weapon. There's still things missing like damage over time, a physics weapon etc, but it does try at least. The later DLC added a flamethrower (Damage over time) but also some really bad new guns like the Heater which is just...a weird spin on the Stakegun.

212Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:04 pm


>forced actions

If we're going to the extreme of the very basics like blocking being 'forced', then yeah every game forces you to do something. I guess we could say old RE games force you to use keys to open doors or Mario forces you to jump.

I got the impression they were talking about the combat loop though. I play games where you repeat a certain action constantly. I love Lollipop Chainsaw. It has a lot of similar forcing. Sparkle combos and stunning zombies. I love the gameplay loop though. It just depends on the game I guess.

I like your posts. Very in depth.

>HMG Gaus
Yes, it justifies for taking up another slot, because recoil makes a huge difference. Recoil can be either an advantage or disadvantage. Precision bolt can either be better than a Gaus, or worse than a Gaus because of the recoil. DMC 4 has some what 'same' skills at a glance, but their hit box and attack timing is slightly different to each other. But that slight difference is good enough to make them different. Recoil is even more so.

You sound like me now.

213Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Aug 15, 2020 2:02 am


I beat this last week on Ultra-Violence. It was a good time. I have a some complaints, but a lot them were already brought up by others in this thread, so I won't bother.

But overall, good game. Glad I finally got to play it. Very tightly designed (perhaps too much so). Some fun stuff to experiment with; I like how the recovery of high-recoil weapons can be canceled by weapon-swapping. I absolutely love that runes have been streamlined and I can now get Blood-Fueled right from the get-go.

Mick Gordon's wubbery still kinda drives me crazy, on replays I'll inevitably turn the music off.

And replay I shall! Definitely looking forward to Nightmare mode. Maybe I'll eventually try Ultra-Nightmare too.

214Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:28 am


If you don't like the OST, I happen to have a metal playlist specifically for DOOM Eternal right here:

215Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:42 am



Some good picks here! I particularly like the inclusion of Razor and Sodom. Didn't mind the new Megadeth record either.

Might I suggest some of my favorites from playing Doom 4

And finally, maybe too slow, but after all what's Doom without a little DOOM METAL!'ll

I'll give this playlist a go next time I'm playing. Thanks!

216Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:44 pm

Lee Yin

Lee Yin
Ok, wow, I did not know people actually pull off no block run in NG. My bad. I just did not search enough Sad I guess we can agree on NG just strongly suggest you to block, not forces you. NG's system does rely heavily on blocking, but you can still beat the game without using a block. I accept that XD

I thought you were saying 2016's enemies are better than DE, but as I slowly read through your previous post again, I realized you actually have not said that. My bad again on that part as well. Thanks for another long post!

> Forced playstyle

I think now I get more clear sight on what your opinion is. Yes I think we can agree on DE forcing a certain play loop(combat loop?). You shoot for like 30~40 secs and chain saw and shoot 30~40 secs again and repeat that process. Because of the ammo restriction, you have to weapon switch constantly. Even though you would choose to not uses a certain weapon, you still have to weapon switch.

Personally, I don't like UT chain run on NG 2 and even on NG 1(not insulting JTB by any means. I love his guides, and have learnt a lot from them when I was younger. I admire his enthusiasm as a gamer.), so I actually think restricting the UT chain gameplay will make the game better. Of course I would not add a cool down to it, because I don't think CD is good for action games, but I would make an adjustment such as 'enemies killed by UT won't give you any essence'. This will prevent you from doing UT chaining over and over again. I actually think this will make the game better, because NG really shines when you are not using a UT(At least in NG 1, because UT is very important in NG 2 because of how it gives you time to turn the camera.).

And I think this is where we think differently. Even though you don't play NG with a playstyle of JTB, you think at least allowing that kind of playstyle adds a value to the game, and makes the game more 'free'. While I actually agree on the later point('allowing it makes the game more free' point), I don't think allowing a less interesting playstyle adds any value to the game, if not subtracts it.

Here is what I think about Doom 2016. I think it is a great game. It revived FPS genre. I won't say it is as good as NG 1/2, but I think it's foundation inspired lots of game developers, to make a better FPS game. It ended Half-life era of FPS. But because of the 'freedom' it had, freedom that allowed you to play in any way you want to, such as just using a single weapon(SSG mostly I guess) to beat the entire game or using every weapon like Clockner, the game actually lost some values, because lots of players won't even use anything else than a SSG. What I think is that allowing only an interesting playstyle and forcing you to use more options that game provides makes the game more tight and well directed/designed, because it leads every player to play in interesting way and forces them to consider using other tools more often. And because it leads every player to play in interesting way, it 'forces' the player to grow as a player and be better. Yes, some players might like sticking to a single weapon more, but I don't think it is something that should be allowed in the game like Doom Eternal, or even in Doom 2016.

I am not trying to force my opinion, but this is what I think as a great game design. I freaking love Nioh, and it is one of my favorite game(I don't think it is one of the best games at all, but still, it is my favorite), but it allows so much shitty options such as magic and farming. I guess you think allowing magic and farming adds more freedom to Nioh, but I think disallowing those tools and forcing the players to beat the game with changing the stance constantly and utilizing flux I and II would make Nioh a way better game.

>Cooldowns in action games
I hate CD in action games as well XD I kinda think if DE removes the CD mechanic from grenades, and make them charged by how many enemies you've killed or something like that would make the game better. But if the game ever wants to add CD mechanic to an action game, I think DE is the way to go, even though it would be better without it. The reason I think CD in DE is the best way to implement CD in action games is because:
a. Enemies are very aggressive and gives you less breathing time, so CD actually is really threatening. The reason I hate CD is because it lets you spam it at the start of the battle and allows you to play very passively and wait for CD to finish.
b. You can actually decrease it's CD by using it more efficiently, so it is kinda combination of meter system and CD system.

Again, I still think if we remove it the game will be better, but DE implements CD in such a good way so I don't think it is that big of a deal.

>cannot chainsaw an Archvile
I don't think you should be allowed to chainsaw Archvile, Cyber Demon Baron of Hell. They should be very threatening, so letting you chainsaw them right away would make the game less interesting. I think they should actually remove BFG and Crucible as well, but at least ammo for those weapons is rare.

Continuing on that point, I think the only problem DE's later levels have is the fact that you can just erase bunch of enemies with BFG and Crucible. I actually think presenting tons of enemies and forcing you to fight them is a great game design especially in DE. It reminds me of Doom 2. I have beaten the game without using any BFG and Crucible, and the game felt so good to play.

>difference in weapon
Yea, I guess DMC 4 can have more unique movesets by combining some similar moves, but I think current weapon/move lists are good enough to make the game's combat unique. My point is that, you can make DMC 4 and DE a better game by making some adjustment here and there, but even without those adjustment, those games are good enough. DMC 4 is not a perfect game at all. The campaign is worse than DMC 3 IMO with worse bosses and enemies, but the changeable styles in real-time and very unique weapons such as Lucifer makes the game very unique and innovative. No games that mimick DMC 4 comes any close to how good DMC 4 is. Even the direct sequel, DMC 5 is worse than 4. DE's campaign can be fixed as well, especially the later part(I think first half is perfect), but even without those adjustments, I think DE is good enough. Yes, weapons can be more unique, but current weapons are unique enough, at least that is what I think.

I am not saying DE cannot be a better game. Well, yes I think it is a perfect game, but some parts can be better. I might sound very silly right now, because I am saying 'it is perfect' and 'it can be better with some adjustments' at the same time. What I mean is that, some parts of DE can be better, but I think those parts cannot be considered as a 'flaw'. I think SM 64 is a perfect game. Sure the camera work can be designed more elegantly, but I don't think it can be considered as a flaw because SM 64 was designed around that restrictive camera, and compensate a lot of it's flaws with great level design.

I agree if we meld some weapons and make some adjustments here and there, we will end up with more unique and better weapons. But I think weapons as of now are good enough, and unique enough. Mods make those weapons different enough with each other, even though they can be 'more' different. I haven't played Painkiller so I cannot say much about how unique those weapons are, but as I am reading through your descriptions about those weapons, I can see how they are more unique compared to DE's weapons.

Thanks for the long reply! I actually did not counterargue with your points directly on this post, because I can see why you think DE's weapons are not unique enough and is a step back from 2016 as a whole. I think we should just agree to disagree. Our fundamental philosophy about games are quite different, even though we both think NG 2 is one of the best game ever created XD

217Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:19 pm


>very unique weapons such as Lucifer makes the game very unique and innovative

Do my eyes deceive me? There are others who love Lucifer?

218Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:07 am

Lee Yin

Lee Yin
@Birdman wrote:

Do my eyes deceive me? There are others who love Lucifer?

People hate Lucifer? I think it is the best weapon Dante ever had. It's moveset is quite simple yet deep.

219Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:44 am


Yeah Lucifer's great! I love the quirky weapons! Nevan's awesome too.

220Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:37 am


No worry on the "agree to disagree", I was actually thinking after making my last post on how to continue haha, since we both have our own take and I don't think we can be swayed by words. It was a good discussion though, keeps us sharp and I think we both brought good points to the table.

> enemies
Yeah I might have worded it a bit weird, but my point with Eternal is more that it didn't fix the big problems I had with the previous game, instead it focused on something I didn't feel needed fixing (playstyle). Enemies were fun in D16, but not nearly the level of quality Doom 1 and 2 had.

> no block run NG
It's crazy! I really recall seeing the no-block run but I think it got removed or I just cannot find it anymore.

> Ultimate techniques
It's a problem they have tried to fix constantly, you notice that with NG3 and NG3:RE. Honestly I still think NG2004 did it the best, namely it didn't have a manual charge. So it always required essence. Think that was the best balanced.

> I don't think allowing a less interesting playstyle adds any value to the game, if not subtracts it.
This is really player dependant I would say. Some players go for style, some for rank, some for the most efficient way to play. I think the beauty of NG is, in a sense, that it allows them all. You can be stylish like ShowR, or just UTspam all day like GodfatherDictator. I know which one I prefer, but I'd be ignorant if I said my style was the only style.

> game lost value

I can sort of understand what you mean here. Earlier this year during lock-down me and my friends all bought Sekiro on PC and streamed our run. Most are quite casual players so it was pretty entertaining. The first one beat it 'legit' by learning patterns. The last one abused item combinations and honestly didn't even know how to dodge or parry, just spam Mortal Blade. The former then said "I feel my victory means less now". It's funny you also bring up Nioh since I had a similar experience. I beat a pretty hard fight, only to see another player OHKO him with another build - but personally I would argue that doesn't bother me. But I can understand it bothers others.

> Cooldowns
Yeah I think Doom Eternal handled it pretty well all things considered. The cooldowns were mostly short and there were ways to reduce them, it was a lot better handled than God of War 2018 for example. I'm personally not a fan of them for the reason you mentioned, but also because it leads to me "saving it for a rainy day". The ice-grenade is a great 'get out of jail freecard', but as a result I rarely use it offensively.

> Archfile chainsaw
I think OHKO weapons are difficult, especially with big foes like the Cyber Demon. I love fighting him and as a result never OHKO him, but you can already see runs take the road of least opression by just OHKO'ing him with the Crucible. Later fights also feel tuned with this in mind, pre-BFG you won't fight the swarms of foes you did, but fights were more concise and well designed I feel.

> Painkiller
It's a fantastic game, though sadly the talent behind it has left the studio a long time ago to make a "Dark Souls Shooter" which may or may not be terrible haha. The level-design is a bit like Quake, enemies take a backseat though. While they have very cool designs there are generally only three foes: Low HP rushers, guys with guns and guys with swords. Also has some of the worst boss-design in the genre.

> Lucifer

IIRC the weapon is universally loved?

221Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:48 am


This is what I've read over the years. More than once I've read it 'doesn't belong in DMC' or that it has no use outside of combos on its own.

I usually avoid DMC communities though so there's most likely other opinions. I must have just constantly run into negative opinions.

222Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:31 pm


Good comments from both of you above. I haven't had any desire to play since the Denuvo fiasco (and to be honest, I've taken a bit of a break from the sort of action gaming we associate with Stinger), but I have really fond memories of my Eternal playthrough. Maybe I should replay DOOM 2016 some time, but from memory Eternal absolutely demolished it for me in terms of overall enjoyment. I know why I'd go back and play the classic 90s DOOM, but I don't know why I'd ever play 2016 over Eternal (soundtrack aside). I just adored the combat loop and what it expected of me.

I've been thinking about the issues raised above and it's got me thinking. You can argue that Eternal forces a certain playstyle that can be too rigid to be even enjoyable enough for a full playthrough - I can see the logic there. Conversely, a fairly common complaint about 2016 was that you were allowed to play however you wanted (to an extent), but there was really no reason to use anything but the strongest weapon you had ammo for. They've pretty much gone from one extreme to the other.

What shooters do you feel get the balance right? I saw Vanquish and TEW mentioned - interesting that they're both Japanese developed third person shooters. Are there first person shooters worthy of note? I've played a ton of them, but can't really think of any that get their weapon and enemy design right in the way that the best third person action games do.

223Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:49 am


Hey Greg, welcome back! No worries, we all have to take a break sometimes. What have you been playing recently then? I tend to take a break from action from time to time too, mostly through games like Deus Ex or recently Death Stranding - fun titles.

> what shooter got it right that wasn't Japanese
Honestly, Doom, the original. Perhaps Blood. The latter did it by having each weapon be very unique and not allowing too much ammo, while also making Akimbo a powerup instead of a straight upgrade like most recent games. Most Build-engine games also count I feel like Duke. I do know a lot of people are recently also giving Bulletstorm a lot more love, so maybe that is worth looking at.

But in combination with enemies, really only vanilla Doom comes to mind honestly. And that was mostly due to the entire game being very much Dungeons and Dragons based, which is all about using mechanics in interesting ways with enemies built in certain ways to promote varied playstyles. You see this in their damage values as well, very tight nit (i.e. the shotgun dealing just a specific amount of damage that it might not one-shot an Imp, but it will ALWAYS two-shot him).

What is interesting to me though is this apparent divide between the East and the West in terms of gameplay and enemy mechanics. I really had to think long and hard about a game from the West, and in terms of the Action genre as a whole I might only find one or two other games that really nailed it i.e. God of War 1-3 and Force Unleashed. While if I think of the East I could fill entire pages with titles that at least do it on a basic level. Wonder why that is.

224Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:59 pm


Thank you! To be honest, I haven't been playing a whole lot - I've been going through the endless loop of thinking "what I should I play", browsing YouTube while I decide, and then just watching videos all night instead. I did randomly start a new playthrough of Def Jam Fight for NY a few days ago. Fun game, surprisingly nuanced for a game about rappers smacking each other.

> Original DOOM
It's quite incredible how well the original games hold up. Saying they "hold up" is insulting, to be honest - they're still amongst the best games in the genre. Those 90s/early 2000s shooters like DOOM, Quake, Unreal etc. were the premier action games to play before the Japanese innovated on the third-person action genre. When the FPS genre moved away from DOOM and closer to CoD and Halo, I think a lot of the joy in the mechanics was lost.

> East and West Divide
I'm sometimes hesitant to say this at the risk of sounding like an elitist Japanophile, but eastern action game design is just far superior, generally speaking. I know that won't be considered a hot take on here, but other internet communities and the more casual gaming fanbase wouldn't know the difference.

I think FPS is the only action sub-genre that is done better in the west. The Japanese don't seem to want to make them. I can't think of many Japanese FPS titles - I remember there was Breakdown on Xbox and Outtrigger for Dreamcast (and arcades), but that's it off the top of my head.

225Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:01 am


> I've been going through the endless loop of thinking "what I should I play", browsing YouTube while I decide, and then just watching videos all night instead

Same here. At first, I had school, so I just decided to focus on that, but even when I had the time, I ended up not playing much.

226Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:13 am


I recall there being a pretty good article about this. It was around the time Metroid Prime came out and was in a magazine, it analyzed why Japan mostly focusses on third-person games and why Metroid Prime's first-person perspective was so controversial as a result. I don't think I have the magazine anymore however. Still, it's an interesting topic.

Especially since First Person games are popular in the East. Call of Duty has an active playerbase, as does DOOM (lots of JPN WADS), Overwatch, Counter Strike and Battlefield.

> original DOOM
I always feel that DOOM isn't a shooter in the modern sense. You have DOOMclones and you have Shooters, the latter being more 'hallway' esque like Call of Duty. Nothing wrong with the latter, they are highly enjoyable, but feel that they only really share two things in common i.e. putting a cursor on an enemy from the first person perspective.

> East vs West
I'd like to add Europe to that, as most of the time West just means USA I feel. I've always felt that mostly American made games have been far behind with a botched emphasis. Japanese games used to be king in gameplay, graphics and storytelling, though the latter has taken a bit of a backburner compared to the more Holywood direction of American made games.

A lot of PS2-era greats are from Europe too though. Titles like Painkiller, Prince of Persia, Rayman, Beyond Good and Evil, Splinter Cell, Thief, Lara Croft, Hitman and later Crysis 1. Strong games with good emphasis on game-design, good mechanics and a timeless flair. They play like Japanese games but with a Western touch.

And then there's Stalker, Grand Theft Auto, Witcher, Heavy Rain and Castlevania Lords of Shadow which were also made in Europe. Less mechanically deep games but still very competative.

That said I do agree that the greatest of the greats really come from Japan. That's no secret.

227Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:05 pm


> "what I should I play"

I'm getting real sick of you lot. It's obvious that the answer is Chaos Legion and Knack 2.

228Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm


DLC is out. Anyone play it yet? I tried it for about 30 minutes but it’s not really doing it for me right now.

229Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:48 pm


I installed it but haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll give it a shot this weekend I think!

230Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:30 pm


Put in a few hours into the DLC.

In short, I quite enjoyed it but it already outstayed its welcome for me in some cases. We talked before about how game can pad out gameplay by using its mechanics in different ways without combat, like RE4 or games like Vanquish or even Ninja Gaiden using their mobility for example, and it is sorely lacking here. It is just fight, after fight, after fight, after fight, and each encounter is just bigger and bigger.

The DLC kind of starts at the escalation of the final stage of the normal game, and ups it from there. So the first fight is generally huge, and before you know it you're facing 3 tryants at the same time. It's interesting, but it goes back to our point that the only thing the game knows how to do is just have bigger fights. There's a point where you fight two Marauders at once, and immediately after is another fight, you'd think that'd be the peak of the level but that just goes to show how much "more" this game wants to be constantly. It's incredibly frustrating in some cases though admirable in an almost childish way.

There were two single encounters that I liked, namely there's a hallway where you're ambushed by a Tyrant surrounded by four of those shield-casters, which was a really interesting engagement. There's also one where you're ambushed from behind in a small hallway by a Tyrant which stuck out for me.

Otherwise, it's basically a level with just Slayer Gate after Slayer Gate if you get me. It's hectic fun, but I would've prefered some more delicate encounters so far. Though that might just be me wanting something from this game that it isn't. If you love Doom Eternal for what it is, this is probably the quintessesence of Doom Eternal at its very best if you get me.

Just started its second mission, which has a cool design. Should note that the first mission is really, really long imo. Probably as long as 2-3 levels from the main game, it's quite impressive.

231Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:58 pm


Second stage has a lot more unique fights that I feel show the combat in a much better light. That said it also introduces a new enemy-type that makes me laugh: it's a spirit that can only be killed with the microwave beam.

This is the kind of backwards thinking that plagues D:E for me. A tool is bad, so we make a foe that's only killable with it, instead of making the tool good.

232Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:42 pm


Not a fan of these Spirits. Basically they possess enemies and give them a 3x HP boost, while also giving them a 2x speed boost (movement and animation) and immunity to stagger and freeze - it's pretty ridiculous. If they possess a Baron it's basically over, fucker tanked 2 BFG shots to the face followed by an entire clip of missiles and ballista shots on UV, all while relentlessly charging at you.

And then even if you kill them you have to nuke them with the Microwavebeam, hoping you have enough ammo.

Side note: lots of collision problems in the DLC from what I've found.

233Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:59 pm


Just finished the second DLC mission, so I'll recap my thoughts. I'm playing on UV difficulty.

Really enjoyed the first mission. I was super rusty, but got back in to the swing of things quite quickly, and was reminded of how much I enjoyed this on my first run through. I definitely think this game goes in to my top tier of action games, and it's my favourite single player FPS of all time. It's certainly got it's flaws, but the combo of fast paced FPS gameplay and the design sensibilities of third person action titles really does it for me. Roy noted below that the mission felt like slayer gate after slayer gate - I wouldn't disagree, but I felt most of the main game was like this. This DLC does feel more like the "endgame" challenges you'd get in other action games, but I don't feel like it's a big step away from the structure of the main game. When the new turret enemy was introduced I groaned and expected to hate it, but it's not that bad. I don't feel like I notice them in combat half the time anyway - if it isn't the turret shooting at you from off screen, it'll be something else. I hope there is a way to kill them in one hit, but not found it so far.

The second mission was a bit of a slog. The new spirit enemies just aren't fun, and making it so they can only be damaged by one particular weapon mod is infuriating. Enemies get an outrageous buff while possessed - increased attack speed, no hit-stun, massively increased health, unbreakable weak points. To be honest, those things aren't even the real issue - it's the fact I now have to save my plasma ammo to kill the spirit (and it takes a shit load), and I'm basically a sitting duck while using the microwave beam. Really not sure what id were thinking with this one. Eternal's movement is a big part of the appeal in the combat system, so making anything that slows your mobility mandatory is not a good idea IMO. If people thought the Marauder was unfair (which he isn't) then they're gonna hate this enemy. One thing I did like about the second mission how was how id spiced up a few of the combat encounters by doing new things with the environment, like having a lower visibility fight in a foggy area. I don't remember anything like that in the main game.

My thoughts so far are positive, despite the criticisms of the second mission. It's certainly challenging, and as I mentioned feels like the more difficult post-game content you see in other titles. I'm impressed by how long the missions are - if part 2 is as long as this, then the DLC probably won't be too far off the length of the main game. If the quality is maintained for the remainder of the missions then I would definitely say this is an example of a DLC that's worth it's price, which feels like a rarity in 2020. It would have been nice to see some new weapons or mods (and I'm just assuming that there aren't any), but in fairness, there are plenty already. Also, Andrew Hulshult should be praised for the new music he's created. It definitely feels like it fits with the existing soundtrack, but I personally prefer Mick Gordon's more djent-y/groove metal-y sound. I was a little bit sad that Meathook (the Slayer Gate theme from the main campaign) isn't used again in the DLC, but I guess it's to be expected.

On a side note, I wouldn't say the microwave beam was totally useless before. You can use it to stunlock almost every enemy in the game (which is useful if you're handy with quickswitching weapons on PC), and it seems to be the only weapon that can stun the new possessed enemies too. The gauge that fills when using the beam is also an indication of how much of the enemy's health is left (and not just "how long do I need to use the beam for") - not massively helpful, but interesting at least. I'd definitely say it's less useful than the other mod that gives you the shockwave blast, though.

234Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:02 am


Also playing on UV, really curious how the DLC will hold up on Nightmare when I give it a go on that setting.

> slayer gate after slayer gate
I do feel it is a bit 'worse' here. In Doom Eternal only one fight had two Tyrants iirc, and most encounters had a maximum of two waves with only very, very, very few exceptions like the last fight of the stage. Here nearly every fight is 3-4 waves and Tyrants are always two or more I feel. Of course they build from the final mission's layout and go further, it just feels like more more more. It's inline with what the game set out to do that's for sure, but not something I fully enjoy/respect.

> turrets
Haven't found an OHKO setup on them yet. Had tried to setup sticky mines, but didn't really work. For the laymans reading this, the turret is a new foe that has an eye the pops out to shoot you. If you hover your cursor on them for too long they retreat into the turret, forcing you to take quick shots. It's a pretty interesting enemy imo.

> Spirit enemies
Yeah they are really overboard. I can understand them giving a problem though in terms of design. You want to make a super buffed enemy, but since you're so mobile and have so many CC options available to you, they'd be dead in the water before they could start anything. So if they were made staggerable, they'd just die to your CC. If they didn't have the HP buff, they'd just die in seconds. If they didn't get the speed increase, you'd outmanouver them 9 times out of 10. That said, I think just giving them a speed buff and resistance to stagger would've been enough, the giant HP bloat and massive damage increase was uncalled for. A Spirit Baron deals more damage on UV than a Baron does on Nightmare. It's nuts.
I wouldn't mind the Microwave beam being their weakness, but other weapons also just dealing damage i.e. the beam just deals bonus damage. That'd be a great addition.

This does show a little danger in them designing a game now based on us having all upgrades available. Hope we won't get more of these type of 'unique weakness' foes but instead focus on enemies that bring more to the encounter. Still feel the Carcass is the stand-out enemy in the game.

> unique encounters
These were really, really good. Very different and unexpected. The reduced visibility was great, but I especially loved the one where you were fighting in a bubble. I did notice that this DLC saw me use remote-detonate a lot more due to how big enemy groups were. Also liked those pods. Did they damage enemies? I wasn't sure.

> microwave beam
I was overly harsh, it has its uses but I feel it shares the problem other mods have of having a clear superior alternative. The Overheat is just too strong a competitor despite the fun microwave setups like stagger or using combos for that explosion. Same problem with the rapid-fire shotgun for example. It's a fun useful ability, but just overshadowed.

> DLC worth the price
I bought the season-pass so this came at quite the discount for me, but 20,- for three missions might not be enough for a lot of players. But for me it was absolutely worth it for sure.

> Music
I still wish they'd go back to the classic style of just straight up metal-metal if you get me. But it does fit its identity. Such a shame they lost Mick though, haven't dived into it as much as to why that happened, but still, sucks.

235Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:15 am


> Slayer Gate after Slayer Gate
I agree with your thoughts here, but it seems like I enjoy it more than you. It almost reminded me of stepping up to DMD difficulty on DMC5, where the challenge is more of the same, but it now takes longer to kill everything. It does feel like the main game turned up to 11. I dread to think what Nightmare difficulty looks like! I'll probably go back to my Nightmare run on the main game after beating the DLC.

> Turrets
I'm not sure if I like the fact that they take no damage at all if the eye is in hiding. Two precision bolts/rockets/sticky bombs isn't a huge hassle to get rid of them, but a quick OHK option would be nice.

> Spirits
I'm mixed on these. I do like having a super buffed and more challenging enemy, but as you said, they don't need to be buffed in quite so many areas. I agree that speed buff and stagger resistance (and maybe even weakpoint resistance) would be fine with their normal healthpool kept the same. I still think there needs to be at least 1 more way of dealing damage to the exposed spirit though. I was reading last night (forget where but I'll post the link if I remember) that every possessed enemy has different resistances to weapon types - apparently data miners have uncovered the info on it. From what I remember, the Rocket Launcher seems to be the best damage dealer against them all round.

> Remote-detonate
I used this almost exclusively in my first playthrough (and again in the DLC), I found it extremely useful. I was surprised to find out that in terms of the meta it's considered to be massively inferior to the lock-on rockets. I still don't feel like the lock-on rockets are that good - I always see comments by people stating that they melt through enemies, but I just haven't found them to be that strong. Not sure what I'm doing wrong with them!

> Ambient enemies
That's a good question - I'm not sure if the pods did damage or slow enemies. I think I noticed during the Marauder fight in the green bubble that the turret firing on the outside can hit the Marauder, and trigger his hound summon if you're not careful. I'm still not a fan of the tentacles though, if I'm honest.

> DLC value
I get that 3 missions for £15.99 doesn't sound like excellent value, but assuming Part 2 is more of the same, the full DLC for £25.99 seems more than reasonable to me given it'll nearly be as long as the main game. I probably spent 4-5 hours playing the first two missions of Part 1 last night. The quality has to be there though, of course. We're definitely getting a Spirit Marauder fight in the next one, aren't we?

> Music
I think the DOOM 2016 soundtrack really gave that game it's identity. I know people praise the art direction and the atmosphere of that title (and criticise how it was dropped in Eternal), but I could really take it or leave it to be honest. I felt like with that game, I could tell it apart from other games due to how it sounded rather than how it looked. Eternal's soundtrack feels like it has less of an identity, and that Mick Gordon has had a bit more freedom in terms of his brief. I like the electronic/metal blend, and I think the new DLC music is more along the lines of "metal-metal" (at least in terms of the guitar work). I can definitely hear Hulshult's DUSK soundtrack in the DLC. I really enjoyed DUSK but playing it reminded me why I don't listen to that much metal any more. I'm definitely more of a fan of groove-focused riffs, rather than your "chuggachuggachuggachuggachugga" ones. I suppose that the main objective with the DLC music was to make it sound like it belongs with the rest of the OST, and it was a success IMO. I don't think I'd choose to listen to any of the new combat themes over the main game ones.

> Design of DLC
Just a quick thought I'd like to mention - I realised last night that not only is the new DLC hard, the developers have basically doubled down on everything that was criticised in the main game.

You thought the combat is too hard/too fast? Well now it's harder and faster.
You didn't like ammo management? Well here's a super spongey new enemy to fight - better keep some plasma ammo spare!
You didn't like the tentacles? Well we've now hidden them underwater mid-combat, and also made GIANT ones that deal shit loads of damage to you.
You didn't like the purple sludge slowing your mobility? Well now we're giving you mobility limiting hazards during some of the most stressful fights in the game.
You didn't like the Marauder? Well we've made 2 extra special encounters for you - a fight with a buffed Marauder, and a fight against 2 Marauders.
You thought the microwave beam was useless? Well now it's one of the most important tools in your kit.
You didn't like the platforming? Don't worry, it's still there - we haven't toned it down.

It's not perfect, but I'm so glad that they didn't dumb down the DLC to suit the complainers. This game wouldn't be anywhere near as fun as it is if it didn't offer a challenge. The whole appeal of the game is in how it encourages you to master the system, and the system requires challenge. Having said this, I think it's totally baffling that you can buy the DLC as a standalone game. In what universe do they think someone who hasn't played the main game could be prepared for the new challenges? I assume that the standalone version starts you off as a fully upgraded Slayer (I just assumed that the game had imported my character at first, but I don't think that's the case) - if this is true then it's honestly an insane decision, throwing an absolute shit load of weapons, equipment and mechanics at you that the game expects you to already be familiar with.

236Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:46 pm


> main game turned up to 11
I admit, I respect this. As you note it really doubles, or even tripples, down on what it was to an insane degree. On the one hand I really approve of that and I'm also happy to see some more experimentation, as the Swamp is probably my most favourite level of the bunch up until now due to it being so experimental. That said, it also feels like a missed oppertunity to just do away with or fix things that weren't too hard, but just needed a look at, from both a casual and veteran perspective.

The Marauder is either too hard or too easy depending on who you ask, but the biggest complaint I see from both sides is that he's too reactive, random and glitchy. The fact that friendly fire can trigger the shield-summon is even worse. These are just 'fixes' that could've been done. Same goes for the under-water sections or the doubling down of singular weaknesses. Just feels a bit of a missed oppertunity. Same goes with half the runes being trash or basic abilities relegated to a slot like aerial-control.

I might sound like I dislike it, but honestly this is more a case of "it's a 9/10 for me and if it was just..just a little bit that extra mile it was a 10/10" sort of case for me you know?

> turret
It's a repeat of what we have with the spirit. This is a basic case of what 'Blitz' could've been in DMC4, a foe that's immune half the time to a part of your moveset. Instead here, he's immune to your entire moveset for a while. It's just such a basic design flaw imo I cannot understand why they made it honestly. If they'd even just given them a 65% damage resistance outside of the eye it would've been fine. It feels kind of like they're trying to jump through hoops since the Slayer is so insanely powerful, that they have to use immunities to make new foes relevant.

> spirit resistances
That's pretty interesting. If you find a link to the data, let me know!

> lock-on rockets
They are just a fast and efficient choice. In the time that you shoot them, you could also do the infamous RPG/GAUSS/SSG combo, which is a way bigger ammo drain. Instead this is a true OHKO against those vipers, an 2-hit KO against Marauders, OHKO against Slayer Hunters (was that the name?) in their second phase and a 3-hit KO iirc against Barron. You can also buffer the input during the recovery frames of a regular RPG shot, which helps. It really is just your best DPS tool imo.

> spirit Marauder
I wonder if they'll dare give us a tomtem'd dual-marauder fight with one of them having a spirit, so you have to kill the spirit while another is on your ass.

> music
Oh for sure, it defined the game for a lot of people and also gave it its identity compared to the original trilogy with its Slayer/Sabath/Teaker setup. Just that it's not really my thing, is all. Do agree that for all intents and purposes Doom Eternal's soundtrack feels lacking. It's still great, but it never reaches BFG levels of cool. For me the best evolution is somewhere in what Painkiller did, that OST is just so cool in my book, especially the Opera House ost:
Or Water City:
Just listening to that makes me want to murder things. Digital things. Haha! I even noticed my fingers immediately went to the ESDF location on the keyboard instead of my typing style "asfd jkl;" setup haha.

But music like art, it's soooooo personal. I know a lot of people loved Doom 2016's art-style but I really didn't, while I loved Doom 3 which I know a lot of people didn't.

> slayer
You start off fully upgraded yeah, wasn't aware that you could play it stand-alone though. Still, pro consumer move....somehow haha. You'd get absolutely butchered haha!

> double down
Well...there isn't a lot of purple slime Razz

> tentacles
I hate the regular ones still for their "gotcha" mentality, but the big one was pretty cool to fight imo. Wish we could Glorykill him honestly. This reminds me...they did take kind of the easy way out with that, none of the new enemies can be glorykilled. So no new animations.

NOTE: what's your opinion on the new support-runes? So far I honestly only find the weakness-blastwave to be useful. You?

237Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:52 pm


> Marauder
Yeah, they could do with tweaking how his AI works. Sometimes you'll feel like you're in range for his melee attack and then he'll just fire an energy blast right in your face. I don't feel he's "too hard" by any stretch now that I've learned a bit more about how he works, but he could definitely stand to be improved a little.

> 9/10 or 10/10
I totally agree. I think the core of it is enough for a 9 or 9.5 for me, but I wouldn't give a game a 10 unless I literally wouldn't change anything about it (which means there probably isn't a game on earth I'd give a 10 to). I don't really like using numerical scores for games because it's not really that useful when reviews are so subjective anyway. I see 10/10 as literally perfect, whereas others might see it as "realistically as good as you can get", and both viewpoints are equally valid.

> Spirit resistances

It's a few comments from the bottom of the page. The user doesn't list the data for all enemy types, but says that the Doom modding discord uncovered it.

> Lock-on rockets
I'm gonna have to force myself to use it. I don't understand how I can think it's not that useful when everybody raves over it Razz

> Spirit Marauder
Wow, that's just cruel. Stop giving them ideas, you!

> Music
Your thoughts on the Painkiller tracks are the same as mine for Meathook ( ). I just love that main riff. It's only like, what, 3 notes? I love it though...up until the bit with the chanting, which I really dislike. Off topic - have you ever listened to the music from the Guilty Gear games? They have a good selection of "proper" hard rock/metal tunes. Also re: typing style, I've noticed since getting in to FPS games on PC that when I'm in work, my typing fingers rest on WASD when idle. I'm always ready for some Doom! Razz

> Standalone
I'd be interested to see what the experience is like for someone coming in totally fresh...but who in their right mind would do that!? I guess it's a nice throwback to the older days of FPS expansions being separate releases and essentially functioning as their own game, like with Quake. I wouldn't really fancy playing the Quake expansions before the base game either, though.

> Tentacles
How do you avoid taking damage against the big ones? I know if you're out of range or line of sight they don't attack - is it literally just that? Don't get close?

> Support Runes
I know the game gives you loads of prompts explaining them, but I didn't click that they were separate to the other Runes until I beat the Slayer Gate. I took the one that doubles Blood Punch damage when your health is below 75 as I was dying quite a bit and thought at least it's a more skillful "get out of jail" option than using 1-Ups. The weak point concussion blast one does sound useful, though. Isn't the other one something like after you use a 1-Up you have a short window to get it back by killing the enemy that killed you? That sounds pretty overpowered...I deliberately chose not to take that one, like I try to avoid collecting 1-Ups and using the BFG/Crucible. I must admit though, I've used 2 BFG shots so far. I reckon there might be another one to come in this final mission!

238Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:22 pm


> Marauder
Yeah he's honestly quite simple, especially with all the exploits surrounding him like the freeze-lure or just straight up BFG'ing him in the face for an OHKO. What bothers me the most about him I think is his inconsistency. He can just...stop moving and suddenly dash around, or when he's supposed to melee he'll do a close-combat shotgun despite that not being in his playbook. He's a wildcard, which is kind of cool, but as a result he's also the reason I won't attempt Ultra Nightmare since I just know he'll just glitch the fuck out at one point haha.

> numerical scores
It was more to give an idea, I don't like numerical scores either. But you get me!

> resistances spirit
Hell Knight:
Ballista: 80% damage reduction
SSG: 75% damage reduction
Chaingun: 67% damage reduction
Everything else: 50% damage reduction

Baron of Hell:
RL Lock-on: 43% damage reduction
Chaingun : 50% damage reduction
Everything else: 60% damage reduction

That's a pretty freak'n solid damage reduction going on there damn. No wonder they straight up tanked two BFGs to the face.

> Meathook track
This is by far the most memorable, since it gets your blood pumping. Add the 'bleepbleep' of the Tyrant (a nice touch) to it and you've got me. I like something like this more than the borderline wubstep we got in some other cases (if you get me).

ESDF master-race

> Guilty Gear
I listened to some of their OSTs and loved them, never really dove into the games sad to say. I have a similar love for Warrior Within's OST. Just so...metal:
Think that game might have my favourite combat music of all time. Just such a great selection of blood pumping tracks. I can just hear the Prince making jabs at his foes at the same time.

> lock on rockets
I think playstyle helps a lot. They're a big delete button, but the remote-detonate is great if you belch a huge group of enemies to make it rain armour for example.

> tentacles
I just did the old 'stafe and spam' against him (on UV mind you) and no-damaged him. Not sure what else to tell you, could've gotten lucky.

> support runes
Yeah the 1UP one is pretty solid, though generally speaking the only thing that killed me so far was a Spirit Baron and the Totem Marauder ... no way in hell I'm killing them in 3 seconds to get my 1UP back haha. The weakpoint concussion is pretty sweet though, doesn't deal a lot of damage but it staggers foes which is worth it. I think it's there to help push players to use those weaknesses more since high level players were already /care about them in favour of damage-nuking foes with SSG/GAUSS/RPG combos.

Only used it against the Baron as noted, who tanked two. It took me a long while to understand why we don't have the Crucible anymore haha. Had totally forgotten about it.

239Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:10 pm


Finished the DLC. The third mission was by far the weakest of the three in my opinion. While it had some unique encounters, like the one with the pillars, it was mostly just a 'typical' stage without any real innovations. The new enemy was more a continued trend of 'invincible except against x', which isn't my thing at all as noted, so I'll shut up about that haha.

Final boss was pretty interesting though also a bit of a clusterfuck. I'd be interesting to see Ultra Nightmare done on this mode. Saw that some players already cleared it a few days after release (lol), going to check that out and see how they handle it.

Best engagement of stage 3 was just before the boss on the bridge. Felt that was an excellent encounter that really used Doom Eternal's mechanics the best and actually showed the spirit in a good light too.

240Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:16 am


I finished it tonight too, and echo your thoughts on the third mission being the weakest. The new Maykr enemy was tiresome, and basically the turret turned up to 11. Out of curiosity, are you playing M+KB or controller?

I liked the "phase" structure of the final boss, but I agree that the final phase is an absolute clusterfuck indeed. I persevered and got through it without the BFG, but it was quite a task. I dread to think what Nightmare difficulty looks like on the DLC (and if I do summon the courage to try it you can be damn sure that the BFG is making an appearance). As you've noted, some absolute madlads have already beaten it on Ultra Nightmare. Meanwhile, I'm still recovering from beating Doom Hunter Base on Nightmare on the main game...

Is the encounter you're referring to the one with two tyrants, one possessed? That fight was an absolute bastard. Not only have you got the tyrants, but there's a Doom Hunter that spawns in during the fight, and there's a bunch of the tentacles conveniently placed to ruin your day as well. That fight certainly taught me the importance of the lock-on rockets...

I'm still convinced the AI is more aggressive in my game than everybody elses - all these YouTubers with their Ultra Nightmare runs make it look like a piece of cake Razz

I spotted that there are challenges for Battlemode on the current event, so I played a few games of that. The last time I played it was April and it was super easy playing as the Slayer. They've completely changed how it works now, particularly for the Demons - there's a surprisingly thorough tutorial you're forced to do now before you play. I lost all my games. I think I'm going to leave Battlemode there...

241Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 am


I'm playing M+K yeah, can't imagine playing this game with a controller to be honest. With the new Makyr enemy especially, from what I've seen it will only die to a heavy hit on its head, which makes things worse. Tried to use the Gattling Gun + Shield and he just wouldn't die.

> final boss
General strategy seems to be AI manipulation there. First Spirit you stay at max range from the Mancubus to keep it in 'ranged mode' so to speak while using the grapplinghook to get into the air to Lockon Rocket the Hell Knight to death. Second phase most use twin BFG shots on the Pain Elemental. If you stay at range the Dredd Knight just keeps firing projectiles, making it for easy picking.

> nightmare
Might give it a go tonight.

> bridge fight
That's the one, felt that was really well handled. You could platform along the side of the bridge to manevour around which was well handled. Was honestly surprised we didn't see a Spirit Archvile. Note, most Ultra Nightmare runs seem to die at the Totem Marauder, which is understandable.

> AI
The enemy has a lot of trouble dealing with high speed targets and those in the air, which they use. They also tend to use optimal OHKO combos, so most enemies can't even start to do something.

> battlemode
I've rarely seen a bigger waste of my time haha, I really tried it originally for the points but just ended up dropping it. Really wish the Events gave alternatives for Battlemode challenge i.e. "win 3 matches as Slayer in Battlemode OR beat the last stage on Nightmare" or something similar. You'd probably see the community die out in a second though.

242Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:22 am


Slight addendum, I also feel this constant push for 'the fun zone' from Doom Eternal keeps showing its head in the new rune. Weaknesses were introduced in Doom Eternal, but players tend to just ignore them for straight up damage, so they are trying to once again make them usefull.

Calling it now: the next DLC will feature an enemy that can only be killed through a Glory Kill, as high level players aren't using Glory Kills.

That aside, I do feel this DLC is a really interesting example to be used in game-balancing discussions. The enemies in the main game are designed around your 'base' loadout, since the developers didn't know what kind of load-out you'd have availble in terms of runes, upgrades, mods etc. In the DLC however they know exactly what you have and can design enemies around that and also chose to do so. As a result you have very different enemy types in terms of gameplay design.

I've always felt this brought massive risks to the table, as it can result in "red and blue" enemies in a sense like in DmC. I think in a game so crammed full of similar enemies it is great to at least see some creativity, but I think resistances would've sufficed over downright immunities, or at least something else.

The Makyr Angels for example, perhaps add the ability to deal massive damage to them to stagger them for a headshot, or at least to stagger them so you can be on your way. Now it's simply straffing around for an opening which is weird and doesn't fit in the series imo.

That said, I prefer 3 swings and a miss with them trying new things than 3 more "big guy with melee weapons and a single projectile that rushes you". If these 3 failures (in my eyes) lead to just 1 unique and interesting enemy down the line I'm happy.

243Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:02 am


> Controller
I've seen SmvR and JayTB123 playing on controller and they both make it look more than viable, but I agree, can't imagine anything other than M+KB for this. DOOM 2016 convinced me of that - I had it on XB1 and absolutely hated it, but ended up picking it up later for PC and found it quite enjoyable.

> Final Boss / Bridge fight
I think I did the first 3 phases first go, and then died over and over again on the last one. I felt there was a massive difficulty spike on that last one.

I kind of ended up screwing myself on that bridge fight a few times by funnelling all of the enemies on to the bridge and backing myself in to a corner (figuratively speaking). That's interesting regarding the buffed Marauder, as I actually dealt with him first time. It helps that you don't really have much else occupying your attention so you can just bait out his attacks and go for your trusty DPS combo of choice. I can probably think of at least 10 fights I struggled with more!

> Maykr enemy
I was surprised that you couldn't overload his shield with damage and force it off that way. I was probably trying too hard to kill him with the Precision Bolt, when I could have used the Ballista or Rocket Launcher in some situations instead.

Edit: I think the ending hints at a very exciting possible boss for the next DLC that would be very interesting to see (and probably a nightmare to develop).

244Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:11 pm


Yeah I don’t know, I beat the first level and am now a bit into the second and it just isn’t really doing it for me. Despite how fun the game can be and how well it feels and controls, I really think the fights devolve into mindless sensory overload, to an extent. In another topic I mentioned how I think games need to get better at varying their encounters and pacing and this is a game that needs to do just that. Every fight is just “throw more shit in”, as Roy pointed out. I wish for the next game they would dial things back and implement some more clever ideas instead of relying on the “look how fast and cuhrayzee our game is” angle.

Starting with all weapons is weird too because it really shows how unbalanced the arsenal is. The standard fire is awful in this DLC for most guns, and every gun has a weapon mod that’s worthless(who is honestly using remote detonate). This, coupled with the “consistently punching you in the face” pace of the game, makes everything feel really monotonous when I’m(attempting to) weapon swap between SSG/Balista in every fight while trying to maneuver around these small arenas.

I’m really not trying to be overtly negative here but I’m just not having fun with the DLC. The new enemies are stupid for reasons that Roy’s covered, and you make a good point by saying it’s thinking backwards. With this DLC they could have buffed the weapons or enemies, instead they make an enemy only killable from one weapon mod. Although that game has its own problems, Bulletstorm has a unique arsenal with alt fires where everything is always a viable option across the board, so why is that not happening here? And while obviously it’s a VERY different game, Dead Space 2 has an equal number of guns as DE while being MUCH more unique, deep, and viable. After 5 playthroughs of that and 3 playthroughs of Bulletstorm, playing DE kind of feels like going backwards. Fun game, but it’s really just not the savior of shooters that I wanted it to be.

245Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 pm


> controller
Not a big fan of SmvR, goes to show just how much GoW2018 made me hate certain things in life haha. But yeah controller, I've done it with D2016. Did a NUR on that one with the controller which was a lot of fun, but after I went PC I never went back for that title.

> difficulty spike
Yeah the final boss was pretty easy at first, until phase 4 which was just absolutely bonkers imo.

> marauder
I can see it slipping people up, mostly since he's just so agressive then and there.

> final DLC boss
They can either make it the best final boss ever or have it be a terrible broken mess. I honestly fear they'll chicken out and make it turn into a giant super-icon of sin or something similar. Having it play like a bad singleplayer match of Battlemode isn't that enticing.
The twist was really cool I must say, especially the rumors that it might be this guy:

(massive spoilers^)

> adjustments
I know I'm becoming a broken record. But I find it funny that the most popullar way to kill whiplashes, is no longer possible mostly now since they're invisible now (lock on rockets). Again that backwards thinking. To my eternal loathing you also can't chainsaw Spirited enemies.

NOTE: there's a review by Mayo, but honestly it was just such a fanwank it felt a bit too much.


Had a feeling we'd have the same take, though I feel you enjoyed it even less. So far I'm doing some derping on Nightmare but stage 2 really is the best for me. Just feels the most unique. I would say finish the game and give us your final thoughts on it. I think stage 2 really has a lot of good going for it and stage 3 has some of the best fights in the entire game, but there's also a lot of frustration in between.

246Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:37 pm


For better or for worse, I think what they have done with Doom Eternal is extremely brave, and kind of unbelievable. How did Hugo and team convince Bethesda that the right direction for the next entry in their commercially successful franchise was to change things up so dramatically? I remember in Hugo's interview with Noclip that he talks about doing advanced stuff like quick switching in the early trailer for Eternal because he wanted to make the game look cool, and thinking (paraphrasing) "no actually, we should make people do this". He went as far as describing the trailer as a lie because it wasn't indicative of the gameplay in their latest build, which was still similar to Doom 2016. The vast majority of players, myself included, played and enjoyed 2016 for what it was, completely unaware of what is considered skillful or high level. id Software did plenty on the road to relrease to suggest that Eternal would be an evolution of the Doom formula and that it might not be for everyone, and I'm surprised Bethesda let them. It's quite amazing how they transformed the combat system to achieve what a handful of developers wanted (and thought was best for the fans), rather than keeping what was already proven as successful.

There is a definite sacrifice in design quality with the DLC in favour of making the game more difficult, often just for the sake of it. I enjoyed the DLC and would still recommend it to people who loved the main game but I understand the criticisms of it, and I have my own too. I can only assume Part 2 will be a significant step up in difficulty again, and to be honest, I'm not certain how much harder I can appreciate, especially when some of the extra challenge is purely just to inconvenience the player. I can feel it now - we're going to get a fight against a possessed Marauder who is twice is fast, has 4x the health, and worst of all, doesn't take any hit-stun.

> Remote-detonate
Yes, that's me! Hello! I used it for my entire UV run of the main game and probably 2/3 DLC levels. I liked being able to fire it into the middle of groups of enemies who might be at slightly different heights, some positioned behind others etc. to try and damage multiple enemies and conserve ammo. It's also useful if you miss!

> Backwards thinking
This is an interesting point. Using your example, you can't use the Lock-On Rockets on the invisible Whiplash, so you have one fewer option against them (and you pointed out this was a popular method of killing them). I noticed that you can't use the Meathook on them either...although, I think I found a way around it. I'm not certain what I did, but I think if you set the Whiplash on fire and reveal it's outline, the Meathook's lock-on worked again. I would assume that it'd be the same case for the Lock-On Rockets. I might have to test these out. With the DLC, the focus seems to be on adding more steps to success. The danger of making your combat system more challenging is that, if done incorrectly, it could be less approachable/interesting.

247Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:59 am


I think it isn't as big a departure in their eyes, but more a course-correction. Their intention was always the quick and frantic style we see in Eternal, but bad experience, bad balancing and (granted) terrible players led to it being "let me just walk around with one gun constantly". It wasn't until I saw ByteMe play at Quakecon that I noticed what was possible in the game.

It kind of reminds me of God of War in a sense. A lot of players, easily 90+% of them, only did Square Square Triangle, myself included. Until I saw how the game should be played. There isn't a ranking screen that pats you on the back for playing better, but speed, efficiency and sheer thrill of play is the reward.

Eternal, for better or worse, really tries to fix that. As a result the skill floor is a lot higher, but I still feel the skill ceiling suffers as a result.

> next DLC
An interesting question that I hadn't thought of. What's next? They already doubled the fodder enemies on screen. Baron's are already as common as Hell Knights. Every fight has Tyrants. The only thing I can imagine is upping the frequency of Archviles and Marauders or introduce a new enemy type. I'd like to see more smart fights as noted, like the bridge, which was a delightful ambush. I do think we'll get some Icon's of Sin as a regular foe probably, in the background.

NOTE: did you also feel that, by comparison, the Slayer Gates were a tad lackluster? The whole game was going ham with insane enemy combinations, but the Slayer Gates felt very tame.

> backwards thinking
The annoying thing is, you can look at it in two ways. On the one hand, the Lock-on-Rocket (LR) is the best way to deal with them, so they remove that to keep the game interesting and switch things up. It promotes you to get more creative in a sense, and get better. The idea is solid. The execution is the backwards element to me mostly. Instead of removal, change things up. Add a new teleporting Whiplash for example, that is harder to use your LR on (higher skillcap), but as a result might be safer to attack differently.

An example of this done right imo is with the Gekko in Metal Gear Rising. A popular way to OHKO them was to just run circles until they did their charge move. You'd block it (not even Perfect Parry) for a QTE that would kill it in a single hit. In the Jetstream Sam DLC, Gekko's can now cancel their charge into a cross-up stomp if you block too early, and sometimes just do it for the hell of it. The OHKO is still there, but they play around it. On the flip side, if you Perfect Parry the cross-up, they still die. I felt that was an excellent change.

> lockon whiplash
You can also freeze them IIRC.

> more steps to success
I think that's a good description honestly. And as you noted, it's a thin line. I really think the next DLC is going to be the most interesting as a "where do you go from here" stand-point.

248Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:45 pm


>2016/Eternal Design
I'd agree in the sense that I'm sure they intended for 2016 to be less forgiving than it was, but I think they must have known it was a fairly big departure. Eternal is much more "systemic" if that's the right word. There's stricter ammo management, enemy weaknesses, a complete redesign of player mobility (affecting the player character and level design), new attack properties (like freezing and burning) -  all major components in Eternal's combat system. From memory, all of these things were either absent in 2016 or have evolved into what we have now. I don't see how they could think "how did 2016 not turn out how we planned!?" because they obviously just didn't design it that way.

I like ranking systems but I prefer the "thrill of play reward". If I spend an hour on a fight in Doom and beat it I feel pleased about it, but if I spend an hour in a fight on Bayonetta I'm getting a Stone ranking and you can be damn sure the game is going to make you feel like a dumb dumb. I mean, don't pat me on the back, but maybe some words of encouragement might be nice  Razz

>DLC Slayer Gates
I honestly can't remember what they were like, so I guess they probably were tame compared to the main fights! I still don't fancy trying them on Nightmare, mind you. I'm making some progress with my Nightmare run now (I'm up to the Arc Complex). Obviously unlocking new weapons and upgrades has helped, but the first Slayer Gate in the game took me nearly an hour on Nightmare, and last night I managed to do the one on Super Gore Nest first time. It's really rewarding to feel like you're genuinely getting better.

> Spirits / Next DLC
Decino has done a video recapping the Spirit buff values from that data mine I mentioned:

That's your possessed Marauder in Pt.2 as good as confirmed. Somebody in the comments has mentioned that the possessed demons during the final fight have their own unique resistances, including a 99.9% reduction in BFG tendril damage...


249Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:18 am


> thrill of play reward
Completely agree. I think a ranking system can work to push people in the right direction, but honestly, that's all about communication.

> systemic
I think it's more that they gave additions, than revamped the system. The marine is still equally mobile, just that the levels play with it more (poles, jumppads etc.). The biggest addition I'd say is the dash. We already had the 'freeze' in the Stun Bomb which was mechanically identical IIRC, just visually different (and no healthgain).

> DLC slayer gates
Yeah fact that I can't really remember them says enough haha.

> Nightmare run
The game is hardest at the start and gets a lot easier down the line when you're more decked out. The second you get the Ballista it really gets a lot more managable.

> 99.9%
That's ridiculous.

250Doom: Eternal - Page 5 Empty Re: Doom: Eternal on Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:48 am


> Systemic
Fair point on the Stun Bomb, I'd forgotten about that. I think it being moved from a weapon mod to it's own button has made it more critical to the gameplay, so for me I'd consider that a departure from the previous game's formula. Would you not consider the dash to be a game changer? Certain enemy projectiles are unavoidable at close/medium range without it, and I'm pretty sure in 2016 you could dodge anything with standard strafing couldn't you? Movement was still important in 2016 but less reflex-based, I thought. After I beat Nightmare on Eternal I'm interested to go back and play 2016 with an Eternal inspired ruleset and see how that feels.

> Nightmare
Yeah, I think the game goes:
- Hard early game while your toolkit is more bare
- Easier mid-game once you have most of your damage dealing tools
- Hard late game where they challenge you to make the most of everything you have and there's more emphasis on optimising your attacks

And then there is the ever increasing challenge of the DLCs. Have you seen the Horde Mode mod that's available? It looks pretty good (and very challenging).

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