Doom 2016

Pretty big fan of games like this. Basically its an fps with emphasis on movement and exploration in tightly designed arenas. Levels have a lot of hidden places where you'll find extra ammo, armor or even upgrades. 
The game is built in such a way that, if you're really good you can no-damage run the title, which I find pretty unique for an FPS (there are no hitscan weapons). 

The biggest problem the game has though is its upgrades, which are too good. Every weapon has two attachments you can find, and also upgrade. You can also equip three runes that have special abilities.
Just to give you an idea of a late-game Doomguy:

• Grenades that deal damage, heal you and give you armor
  
• Infinite ammo if you have more than 100 rounds for that weapon
  
• Glory Kills (cinematic finishers) also give you armor points
  

You've basically become immortal. I could steamroll the end game without even bothering, it was sad.

This is where No Upgrade Run comes in, and it is suddenly a whole other ballpark. Really having a lot of fun with this myself right now, playing it on Hard (not ready mentally yet for Very Hard).

Example of a run:

It's funny that you posted this, because I'm going to start playing this for the first time ever later today. Anything I should know before going into it (besides what you posted)?

- look around, you can find some weapons nearly 2-3 chapters earlier than normal if you explore
- the the navigation upgrades first, they make finding secrets easier
- you'll be swimming in weapon-upgrade points later, so don't worry too much about where you'll spend them.
- sometimes you'll find locked doors, look for a yellow switch nearby. They contain goodies.
- Gory Kills heal you

Enjoy ^^ It really is an amazing title! Let me know what you think!

I'm awful at FPS and never touch them, but this looks fun even to me. I wont play it, but it's really fun to watch.

Birdman wrote:I'm awful at FPS and never touch them, but this looks fun even to me. I wont play it, but it's really fun to watch.

It really is one of those few old-style fps's that is still fun to play. I really love games like this and Painkiller: Black. There's a demo on PSN that has the first mission, maybe you'll enjoy it!

Doom 4 is great(I prefer that or DOOM, it is the forth main entry) I respect that they had the gumption to completely remove the dreaded Accurate High Damage Hitscan Enemies in favour of telegraphed projectile/melee attacks. As Doom has always been more of a 1st person Shmup(I’d argue action too, as much as Bullet Witch or PN03)than typical modern 1st/3rd person shooter design(what with limited player mobility, hitscan mobs, regen life and waste high cover).

I find the game lasts a few stages more than needed, by the end you’ll have faced all the enemy types in all enemy combinations in more and more lengthy arena combat, which did get a bit tiresome after a while(best played on shorter sessions for me). There are also only 3 bosses too, all being placed near the very end, making the repetition of fighting hordes of enemies in arenas(Serious Sam, Painkiller and such where like this at times so it’s standard affair) more noticeable. I’d suggest 1 more boss much earlier on and have the others spread out further.

So I played a little over half of this before deciding to shelve it for now. There's no doubt that the combat is a lot of fun, and the game in general is very well crafted, but most of my complaints echo what Gabe said above me. I feel like the game should be starting to reach its conclusion at this point. The entire game is basically, "walk into a room, enemies spawn, run and shoot until they stop, then do it for another 12 hours." I know you could technically say that about every game ever, but this game just doesn't do a whole lot to vary the encounters. The enjoyment seems entirely dependent on how fun you think the shooting/movement is. I understand that's what this game is supposed to be; you know, just like the classics, but those games were only a few hours long, so the repetition seems a lot less egregious in those cases. Sure the game has a new enemy or two every stage, but none of them are all that different in terms of what the strategy is to beat them is. Anyway it's fun for what it is, and the music and environments are pretty awesome but I can't really muster the energy to continue.

Overall impression: Good game, just not really my cup of tea.

I agree the game does outstay its welcome a lot, especially once you've seen all the enemy types and have all the weapons (around the first time you go to hell). I will say though the game is a lot of fun when you explore. There are a ton of little extras to find from extra armor, early weapons and specific upgrades. Neat little advanced tactics like using the Gauss Rifle for an extra dash are cool too.

Like Mirror's Edge though, it really shines best on repeat playthroughs. My first run took me nearly 10 hours, while my second less than 4. I think my NUR is probably going to take 5. But again, yeah, you have to love this style of combat and play it in short bursts. I do like one mission every two days, that's it.

I did have fun exploring, though I wish the game had a little bit less orange everywhere haha. I know they're on Mars but for a sequel it would be nice to have a bit more variation.

Mirror's Edge is fun as hell! I haven't played it in years though. Did the sequel end up being any good? Yeah I tried to play Doom 4 in big chunks, so that probably didn't help haha. I got past the halfway point after three sittings, and by that point the fights just felt like chores. I'll keep it in mind to pace myself if I go back to it.

The level design is a big bummer, especially since the last few levels are so great. You suddenly have an ice level, a dungeon and basically 'super grimdark hell'. But I agree it stays in the 'orange mars' location way too long, even reusing a level once (it mirrors a mission, albeit very sneakily). I tend to like diamonds in the rough like this, since there are clear things I'd like to see improved. For instance I'd like:

- more balanced extensions
- faster gory kills
- more hidden weaknesses for foes
- more varied designs in terms of levels
- less emphasis on upgrades
- more vertical levels like the Foundry (my favorite level, probably the best level).
- better bosses

Stuff like that. Despite me hating the game (sorry), Half Life 2 did have greatly varied locations. Painkiller was also grand in the way it handled those things.

I think I'll check out a speed run or something later to see what I missed out on. It's always fun to see the pros zoom through old school shooters like this! Diamond in the rough is a good way to describe Doom 4. I think a sequel could be something really amazing with just a few changes here and there. To be honest, I would have liked to see a bit more platforming sections in the game. I thought what was there was pretty fun for a shooter, and it would have been one way to break up the constant shooting. The game definitely needs to mix up the environments. I would personally live by the mantra of: If you think it would be cool, put it in there! Have a medieval castle stage, some long lost Lovecraftian civilization, or some demonic zoo or something haha. It would be awesome if the setting was different every level; something that Max Payne 3 actually did a great job of, although it probably hurt the (already stupid) story in the long run. But that's what's cool about Doom! It's just about kicking some demon ass! Who cares if it makes sense?

I'm not a big Half-Life fan, so I'm not gonna tear you a new one haha. I remember bits and pieces of HL2 and the episodes. It's been a very long time since I've played them though. I should probably replay it again sometime. I actually played the original for the first time last year. I can definitely see how it was so influential, but I didn't love the game. I think it's pretty solid overall though, even today. Except Xen. That level blows ass, and even Gaben admitted to that lol

I highly recommend watching the run I linked above, great player beating it without upgrades, which is always fun to watch! The platforming does play a part in the exploration, with some really tricky jumps lateron allowing skipping of fights, sequence breaks or also secrets. Have you ever played Painkiller: Black by any chance?

And yeah I really feel levels should come first, then the reason why they are there. Just make cool levels and go from there.

Alright I'll give that run a watch later. I haven't played Painkiller but I think you sent me a video of the game over on Reddit. I remember it looking awesome! If you think I would enjoy it more than Doom 4 I'll see if my PC can handle it, and I'll give it a try after I finished playing Condemned.

EDIT: I bought Painkiller Black and Overdose. They were $4 total on GOG haha

Okay, we don't have a lot of time! So I'll say this very quickly: do not play Overdose.

Painkiller Black, the main game, is excellent. After that they let other studios make the expansions and...yeah. It wasn't good. They are still great little games based on the main game, but the jump back in quality is absolutely mind-boggling. It is like we grab NG2, and let some guys just out of school make a DLC-level pack for it using existing assets. Sure the base is great but...damn, the levels they made...oh boy.

Painkiller really is a groundbreaking game though. Great unlocks, great secrets, tight small but fun to explore levels, great enemies, BITCHING METAL SOUNDTRACK, it has it all haha!
The bosses are horrible though, and I mean that in a "look up the cheats to skip a mission" horrible. I've done them all once on the highest setting, and after that never looked back and just skipped them using cheats. I cannot overstate just how badly designed they are haha.

15:45 always gets me in the mood to kill some enemies.




15:45 always gets me in the mood to kill some enemies.

Thanks for the heads-up on the expansions. I watched a video review before you posted this and the guy basically said the same thing. I played the first level just to test it out, and I think it's awesome! But I can also see it becoming repetitive just like Doom 4, so I'm gonna try and pace myself. I love the fantasy aesthetic though! Looking at videos, it seems like they did exactly what we were talking about before (if you think it's cool, put it in). All the enemies are so wacky and the designs are just awesome. Game also runs perfectly at max settings haha. There was nothing for me to worry about. I'll let you know more when I continue playing it.

One other thing, holy shit games like this are soooo much better with KB+M. I was playing Doom 4 on PS4 so I got kind of a gimped experience unfortunately.

For PS4 Doom you have to use one of the weird controller setups that has L1 as jump, really allows for better bunnyhopping. In terms of repetativeness, Painkiller has some pretty tricky platforming sections to get all the secrets. Once you beat a stage it will note how many of the secrets you'll find, and I wouldn't be surprised if you found only 2 in your whole run (while the first stage already has 10 I believe). They are really, really, well hidden. 

Try out the alternate fire options too, they are excellent. The Shotgun's freeze is great against higher powered mooks. 

Glad to hear you're loving it so! And to see you so active here ^^

Yeah I didn't even know there were any secrets in Stage 1, so when I got to the end and I saw 0/4 secrets or whatever, I was pretty perplexed haha

Yeah the freeze is super useful. I also love the twirling blade thing. It just tears through the enemies like butter!

I'm excited to get back to it, but like I said before, I want to finish Condemned, and I just started the Last of Us for the first time, so I want to finish those two before I go back to it. Speaking of which, I'm about 3 hours into TLoU, aaaannnnnnnnnnd it's just your typical extremely overrated Naughty Dog fluff-fest. Enemy AI is horrendous. I'm playing on Hard and you can literally walk right in front of an enemy, circle around him 3 times, then stealth kill him, and none of his friends will notice. And I'm not talking about the enemies that can't see you, I mean real humans with eyes and ears. When you're not doing that, you walk for an hour, then you have to solve an infantile puzzle or two, then you have to lift Ellie up a wall about 7 times (just like all the Uncharted games). I also have to say, as of right now the story isn't really blowing me away at all. It's entertaining, and the characters are likable, but it kind of just seems like an average zombie movie. I have about 7 hours left, so we'll see if my mind changes at all, but right now it's just as overrated as I thought it was going to be. It makes me sad that average games like this are considered gaming's "Citizen Kane" by a very large portion of gamers. It's also hard to have a pleasant argument about games like this, because people will instantly ignore you and just call you some idiotic contrarian. Ah well, whatcha gonna do?

I'm loving the forum experience here! I like reddit but half the time whenever I see something I want to comment on, 20 other people already gave their thoughts, so I usually just lurk, but here I can basically comment on everything. Plus, reddit is usually just posting memes and stuff like that. Anyway, I'll catch up join the 1000 post club soon enough!

Yeah the secrets in that game...wow. Some are really obscure. I would make it my mission to find them all without guides but some I have to admit really are SECRETS. I cannot imagine people finding them without insane luck or guides haha, which I kind of like. In terms of guns: you haven't even gotten the most over the top two weapons yet (one shoots...here it comes, shurikens and lightning).

> Last of Us
Had the same experience, I really liked MatthewMithosis' review of it. The one part I liked of the game was the short 'open world' part where you're in a small village and you can just explore and loot the place. Its really eary, there are a few fun little dialogues hidden throughout; it works best that way. Otherwise the game is a very lineair focused by the numbers game, stealth is extremely binary and you can't really play it the way you want (if the game wants you to stealth, you'd better not think of playing it action style, same with the reverse). 
The story doesn't really go anywhere and once you know the plot mechanics, the twist near the end is very predictable.

I actually had a good talk with a guy once who was really in love with the game, but eventually I asked him the question: what exactly do you, the player, really do in those games. And he started thinking and said "nothing really, just one big railroad". Then he understood. 
And yeah discussions about the game are impossible. Kind of same as with God of War 2018. I keep throwing out arguments, well worded discussions and just get labled 'LOL TROLL OLOLOLOL DONT LUKE CHANGE RITE? GO BRAINDAID GOW SKAUR SKAUR TIANGLE". Can't talk with those people.

> Citizin Kane
Honestly, I tried watching it. Hasn't aged well. But you can really see it being the film that laid the groundwork for so many movies, hell basically every cinematographic trope comes from there. I can imagine a lot of people having that feeling when they play DMC1, RE4, Super Mario Bros or Zelda games like in 40-50 years. So many of the things that are normal then (or have vanished again...) are to be found in those gems.

> 1000 post goal
To the stars and beyond!

NOTE: if you can find any cool gifs, I can turn them all into emoji. Just PM me an URL and I'll put them in the system :)

Last of Us
LMAO at that GOW fan impression. Perfectly describes everyone who worships these games to high heaven. There's nothing wrong with liking the game but you can't even suggest that maybe the game has an issue or two before they say, "WELLFUCKYOUITCHANGEDMYLIFEANDICANNOTTHINKOGONEGAMEWITHBETTERGAMEPLAYANDAMOREEMOTIONALSTORYDESPITEONLYPLAYING2GAMESANDILOVEELLIELIKEMYOWNDAUGHTERSHEISBESTLOLIREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE." Anyway I'm halfway through the game now, and I'm at a really long and drawn out stealth section. I feel like I've been crouch-walking around apartment buildings for the last 3 hours now. I don't see my opinion changing by the end but I'll finish it.

Citizen Kane
Haven't seen the movie, I just know the expression and why it's used. I'm sure some GOW4 fans will play DMC1 and become amazed at how you could throw a weapon and summon it back to you all the way back in 2001 lol

GIFS
I'll take a look around the interwebz. I'm sure I could find some cool ones.

Was stuck here for a long time on my NUR, really happy to have beaten it. Very intense fight! Might showcase a bit more how the game works :)

> Kane
Basically it was a film that did nearly everything first, but as such also aged pretty badly. It is a film you'll love to watch if you're in the craft, otherwise it can be quite dull.

I remember that you can exploit your enemies in this game.

In what way do you mean? There are fun AI tricks and setups, but what do you mean with 'exploit' exactly?

Well, I forgot what the level name is called but it is where you normally get the Super Shotgun. During my playthrough, I have been collecting enough Weapon and Predator points to mostly get the Secret tracking device and upgrades to the Super Shotgun and the Rocket Launcher.

After you get the Super Shotgun normally, you will head to the waypoint where you will be greeted by Imps and other demons. Here is where you can totally exploit them, but only for full weapon upgrading and mini objectives and rune upgrades. As long as you're doing what the instructions are doing, you can die as many times as you want to keep going.

Did someone say No Upgrade No BFG Nightmare run? That’s when I really fell in love with this game. Prioritizing enemies, making use of the grenades, and well timed chainsaw uses become huge and change the game. I agree the game is way too easy with all the upgrades. The BFG is also too powerful; I get that it’s supposed to wipe out a room, but in the final level you can clear some pretty insane fights with the press of a button. The BFG was much better thought out in the original games imo, it wasn’t nearly as powerful and it shared ammo with the plasma rifle. I’m hoping it’s tweaked a little in Eternal.

What’s everyone’s favorite weapon and enemy? I actually really love the imps in this game, they’re a threat from many different angles and their mobility is very high. Favorite weapon has to go to the gauss cannon. I actually used the “gauss hop” quite frequently in my NURS. The upgrades are very fun too, but again, so busted.

Saw this run yesterday. Fantastic playthrough that explains a lot of the game's nuances as well as show it in action. Great stuff. Kind of a speedrun and a guide in one.

Does anyone have any recommendations for shooters like DOOM 2016? A lot of FPS games feel dull and lifeless after you get used to the pace and ferocity of DOOM. I've heard good things about Titanfall 2, but not played it yet. I also plan on buying DUSK at some point, which looks like a great throwback to classic PC FPS titles.

Titanfall 2 is pretty good, yeah.

I recommend Painkiller if you want something like DOOM.

On PC? Definitely Painkiller which is probably one of the best in the genre if you ask me. Otherwise I still cannot recommend the classic Doom 1 and 2 enough.

I was thinking of PC but console suggestions are welcome too! I've played a good amount of the original Doom games, still class them amongst the best in the genre. I have Painkiller: Black Edition but never played it, probably got it in some random bundle years ago. I'll have to give it a go!

For both PC and console suggestions I would say Serious Sam(just any of them, I haven't played them all but they all seem to be good) and the reboot Shadow Warrior.

Yeah, especially if you already have it, play Painkiller. It starts off a tad slow in the first mission but once you get into it it is nuts. Fantastic weapons, levels and soundtrack. Good customization system too and the highest difficulty setting adds a lot too. Let me know how you like it!

I'll give Painkiller a go soon - just got back in to DOOM 2016, I'd forgotten that I got stuck on it a while ago. Really glad I gave it another shot! I'm stuck again on a section where you're on a train and have to clear the room before it advances. I think it's not too far after the boss fight with the pair of Hell Guards.

>stuck on a train

In Vega Central Processing? I consider that the hardest fight in the game. Don’t be afraid to use the BFG and rich get richer.

> Hardest fight in the game
It certainly seems like it! Yes, I think I'm on the way to shut down Vega, so that sounds about right. I keep forgetting I have the BFG, I'll make sure I use it next time.

In the middle of replaying this now on Nightmare - was curious to see what my opinion of the game would be, after spending so long playing Eternal.

I must admit, I was quite surprised by the difficulty. I thought with going back to 2016 that I'd find the game fairly straightforward, but it's giving me a challenge. The first thing I immediately noticed is that the damage scaling feature in Eternal is absent, and it seems like most enemies can kill you in one hit if you're below about 65 health. The early game fights where a good proportion of your enemies are Imps are actually pretty tough. Their fireballs move very quickly and can do upwards of 70 damage. I think I remember hearing somebody on a speedrun say that there is some RNG that influences the exact damage a fireball can do, but either way, you definitely don't want to get hit and find out. Using Glory Kills is also far less safe without having Eternal's dash, and you can get killed before you even collect the health pickups from them.

I had forgotten that in 2016 you don't get respawned and lose a bit of health when falling out of bounds, like in Eternal. This game just straight up kills you. There have been a few fights where I've carelessly jumped in to lava or off of a cliff. Brutal way to end an Ultra Nightmare run very quickly.

I'm avoiding using powerups and the more overpowered runes (although I haven't found most of them yet anyway). The secrets seem to be more well hidden. I think that's reflective of the level design in 2016, which is less "gamey" than Eternal. If you avoid the obviously overpowered stuff, I think this game might be harder than Eternal in some ways. Maybe it's just because I'm less experienced with this game.

I'm using this playthrough as an opportunity to get used to the new key bindings I'm trying, using ESDF for movement. Transitioning from using the weapon wheel to quick switching for combos has improved my gameplay immensely, but I am still struggling a little to comfortably reach every weapon. I've mapped most of the weapons to my extra mouse buttons, which has helped. I'm definitely enjoying the game more playing this way, which I didn't do in my first playthrough.

Great to see another ESDF player! It really helped me out personally in getting better, just gives you so much more flexibility.

I've gone back and played Doom 2016 a bit too and I honestly still think it...might be better than Eternal where it matters for me. I like the combat more if you 'hold back' i.e. not go nuts with broken combinations (which you also have to do in Eternal mind you, otherwise it's just Quickscoping). I do like Eternal's leveldesign a whole whole whole lot more though, if only in terms of visual flair.

I think if Doom had more extreme higher level players, we might end up getting a Bayonetta scenario again. Where the extreme purists might prefer the original while the more mid-level players would all prefer the latter entry.

> imps
Really saddened by how heavily they nerfed them and their mobility in D:E. Really liked how they could cling to walls etc.

> mouse buttons
Honestly, I've found those to be finnicky. I use
A: shotgun
T: super shotgun
Q: plasma
W: HMG
V: chainsaw
G: grenade
B: gauss
Z: BFG

While the mouse buttons swap my grenades. At least I think that was it.

> 2016 vs Eternal
I'm prepared to give 2016 more credit now than I did after my first playthrough, but I don't think it's likely to dethrone Eternal, for me. I really like near enough every addition/change they made for the sequel. I like how the enemy weaknesses and ammo management further encourage efficient, combo-based gameplay. I like the extra mobility options and verticality in the combat arenas in Eternal, too. That's a huge plus for my tastes. I prefer the visual variety in the Eternal levels, but I can see why people prefer the more consistent tone and environments of 2016. The levels in Hell are very cool, but the ones on Mars look a bit samey to me.

I know you can ignore the overpowered stuff (and I will be), but having runes like Rich Get Richer is just ridiculous, as is the one that makes enemies drop BFG ammo. For me, that will be one of the main things that stops 2016 being better than Eternal. Across my Eternal playthroughs I had to try new techniques and abilities to improve, but with 2016 I've already decided there's stuff I won't use because it will negate the challenge. Doesn't make it a bad game or anything, just less fun IMO. I like that they tried to make the game more challenging (although there is no need for them to keep nerfing anything useful that they didn't give the player deliberately).



> Some more 2016 notes
I didn't realise until this playthrough that the Plasma Rifle overloads shields in 2016 as well as Eternal. I'm not sure if the game ever tells you this, but there's nothing about it in the enemy codex files (and besides, it's much more efficient to kill them with Rocket Launcher splash damage). I don't think any of the enemy codex entries give you tips on how to fight them in 2016. Quite the contrast to the tutorial-heavy Eternal. When you think about it, the enemy weaknesses weren't introduced in Eternal, but rather expanded on (and exaggerated pretty heavily).

Between the splash damage radius and the amount of self-damage you can do, the Rocket Launcher and the Shotgun's grenade mod are so dangerous. I've blown myself up so many times! The grenade mod for the shotgun was the worst one, as an Eternal player. You can't damage yourself with that mod in Eternal, so I was happily firing away at enemies that were right next to me for a while.



> Keybinds
Switching to ESDF was pretty straightforward - it's just the other keys I'm adjusting to. Although, every time I press Tab to bring up the menu and then exit back out, I move back to WASD instead. Force of habit!

As for the weapon bindings, you're gonna love mine (I'm using a Logitech G502):

Pistol: Mouse "G7"
Combat Shotty: Scroll click right
HMG: W
Plasma Rifle: A
Chainsaw: V
Rocket Launcher: T
Super Shotgun: Scroll wheel up
Gauss Cannon: Scroll wheel down
Chaingun: Scroll click left
BFG: Mouse "G8"
Melee: R
Use: G

Might help to show you this for reference: https://www.logitechg.com/content/dam/gaming/en/products/g502-hero/g502-hero-intro.png.imgw.3600.3600.png

BFG and Pistol are on G7 and G8 as they'll be the least used weapons, and I have equipment/swap on G4 and G5. I don't have scroll click mapped to anything (for some reason it's a lot more resistant than the other keys), so I use the left and right scroll buttons for weapons too. I've put weapons that I don't really combo to/from on those, as I have to trigger them with the fingers I use for shoot and weapon mod. I have swap weapon mod on Q, as I find it a little bit unnatural to reach using ESDF. I like taking as much work away from my keyboard hand as possible, so I'm enjoying this layout so far. When I take this layout over to Eternal, I'll put the Crucible on my Pistol button.

Yeah some of the runes are just nuts and it's clear that they didn't really anticipate how brutal you could get with them. I think there's definitely also some revisionist history going on with Hugo seeing players like ByteMe play and go "oh. Yeah, I like that" instead of it being the intended method of play (just compare the pre-release footage of Doom 2016 and Eternal).

> arenas
I kind of prefer the freedom of 2016, Eternal still feels oddly constricted for me but this is a discussion I've had in the past with other users too and that was more a 'agree to disagree' conclusion. I see both sides of the coin. Still feel cooldowns were a bad call however and some tools could be fused.

Arenas in Eternal are far superior and there's far less "groan" levels for me (only Terras Narbad for me).

> plasma shields
There's a tutorial popup for it IIRC, perhaps you had those disabled?

> weaknesses
I wish they were done a tad differently, but I do miss them in 2016. There's something about having more to play with than "kill the foe" so I get what they were going for in Eternal.

> scroll click right
> scroll click left
> G8
My head...

Interesting point regarding Hugo and revisionism. I remember in that NoClip interview he explained that he played 2016 with weapon switching and all that good stuff just because he wanted to, and wanted to make it so that you had to do it in Eternal. I don't know if you've seen any of his ongoing Eternal playthrough that he's doing for the Bethesda YT channel, but he's playing on controller and looks a bit out of his depth, to he honest. It surprised me given the "experienced PC gamer" impression he gave of himself. I wonder if MS requested he use a controller now that they're in control of Bethesda.

> Plasma Shields
It was so long ago that I started my very first playthrough, I really don't remember whether I had them on or not. I don't usually turn them off, so I probably just wasn't paying attention.

> Cooldowns
I'm surprised they carried these over from 2016 to Eternal, given that removing crutches was a big part of their game design.

> Arenas
I actually think these are pretty well designed in both games. I find the smaller scale of 2016 quite refreshing after so much Eternal gameplay. They're designed around the mobility options you have and I think they're done well. I guess I prefer Eternal, but that's because of the gameplay changes affecting the arena design.

> Weaknesses
I loved these in Eternal and expected to hold it against 2016 for having a much smaller emphasis on them, but it still works to the game's strengths. Being able to disable enemy weapons isn't necessary in 2016 as you fight fewer demons at a time, and you still have a good variety of damage dealing options anyway. I do like the extra "interactivity" of them, though.

> Mouse buttons
I know the binds sound a bit... psychotic...but it requires less finger dancing, so I like it. I thought using the left and right scroll clicks was a work of genius, to be honest - they're very easy to reach given that your index and middle fingers are either side of the scroll wheel anyway.

It is really hard to know where the person begins and the marketing ends in those interviews and let's plays. Hugo is a 'face' now, just like Itagaki was, just like Itsuno etc. You saw this before too with Itsuno. First he loves DmC because that's what was just released. Then when DMCV was being marketed he was suddenly "DmC sucks I always wanted to make DMCV. I threatened to quit Capcom".

Truth is usually in the middle. I think Hugo is a fan of Doom, but more casual and he probably grew up getting fragged in Quake like most of us, not fragging as we'd all like to recall haha. He knows what makes a fun game though, and that's super important. I am also glad he keeps the 'story' on the background.

> No Clip
Which was nearly 9 months after the game's release IIRC. So that would line up with the revisionism. He's not alone in that though as noted, you have to guess where the truth is. Usually in the middle I've found haha.

> 2016 arenas
One thing I prefer from it is their design and enemys. There's a lot less 'clutter' and a far better focus. I really hope the series gets another game that combines the best of both, though I 'fear' it will just be Eternal on overdrive (which I can respect mind you).

I have been a big hater of this game since it came out.
I played it on ps4 ultra violence and just didn't like the combat loop or the forced arenas.
It wasn't doom.

I have been watching a lot of Under the mayo videos and finally decided to retry this on pc how it was meant to be played.
I have seen the light brothers.
I started on nightmare and it is so brutal. You basically get two shot by anything.
I understand the game now, I understand the dance.
Such a good game.
Probably the only modern western game that does difficulty properly, looking at you GOW18.
So excited to play Eternal.

I have some gripes with the game though. Bad checkpoints are a big one. You do a big fight, get a checkpoint then loot the area and if you die you have to re loot that big arena every time.
I am looking forward to the lives in eternal to help with those times when the game just fucks you out of nowhere.
Also it is unfortunate how powerful the super shotty is maxed out. It just can't be beat for dps. Though it usually prevents glory kills because of the damage so there is a little balance there.

Doom 2016 is especially good imo once you get deep into it. It's still no 'Doom' in my eyes, just a great modern shooter that combines new and old in interesting ways. Glad to hear you loving it more!

Eternal is...different. Your milage may vary. I really, really, really enjoyed my first few runs through it and also through the DLC packs. But after that the restrictive gameplay really started to annoy me and I went back to 2016's more 'open' combat system and found it far more appealing and graceful if that makes any sense.

To explain it a little bit, Eternal was made for people like 2020-Hedfone. They didn't understand the dance. They just ran around with the supershotty going "what the fuck is this game". Eternal has Hugo kicking in your door and slamming your head against the computer-desk if you so much as think about using the same weapon twice in a row (though ironically, if optimized, you only swap between three weapons haha). It's very hard to put into words.

> Hated it on PS4
I had the game on XB1 and thought it was dreadful. I ended up giving it a chance on PC later on as every single one of my friends swore it was a good game, but I was tempted not to bother. I'm glad I did, though!

> DOOM and FPS
As Roy said, the modern DOOM games are really only DOOM by name (and aesthetics). They're clearly inspired by old-school FPS design but they're certainly modernised and don't play a thing like the 90s titles. I definitely think they're the best FPS titles you can play today, though. Most modern FPS games are crap, the retro revival ones are good (like DUSK), but these games wear the crown for me. I'm waiting for Ultrakill to come out of early access before I dive in to that, and I'm really hoping it impresses me. There are still some other games I need to put more time into, like Halo, Painkiller, there's chat about Crysis in another topic that makes me interested, etc.

> 2016 vs Eternal
Eternal is one of my all time favourite games, so I'll try not to let my bias show too much here...

Both titles are great, honestly. Eternal feels like an evolution of 2016, but they're different enough to be well worth replaying on their own merits.

There is *some* truth to the "restrictive" gameplay you hear people talk about. If I were to be completely honest, I think it's a criticism that's overblown, but I do understand where it comes from. You may find yourself agreeing with Roy's opinion above - it's very much an "in the eye of the beholder" thing.

The devs doubled down on the concept of enemy weaknesses. In 2016, they existed but you didn't really need to engage with the system to be successful at the game. If you don't engage with enemy weaknesses in Eternal, you will find the combat much more difficult. Because of this, people associate particular weapons with specific enemies and feel that there is only one "right way" to fight an enemy. The time this is most truthful is in the DLCs where there are enemies that have massive resistances to all but one weapon. I can understand why people wouldn't like this, but I like the extra layer of challenge it adds. For the vast majority of enemies (and there is a surprising amount of enemy types), there are multiple ways to ways to take them out quickly, and the method you use may depend on what ammo you have available, or you could just mix things up for fun.

Seeing as this is the 2016 topic I probably shouldn't go on a big rant about Eternal here, but the general consensus is that the developers are trying to steer you towards playing a particular way in Eternal. The smaller emphasis on weaknesses in 2016 means you're "free" to use more weapons, but I don't necessarily find this is a better approach. In both games you are probably intended to use your big guns on big enemies and small guns on small enemies, but 2016s ammo count means you can use the big guns for everything. I like that Eternal won't let me clear an entire gore nest with the Super Shotty, Rocket Launcher etc.

Having said all that, 2016 and Eternal having such differences makes them refreshing from each other. I've done a couple more 2016 runs since Eternal came out and I've really learned to appreciate the game more, even if Eternal is still my favourite.

I really hope you enjoy Eternal when you try it - in many ways, it's 2016 on steroids (and speed). The Doom Slayer is still OP in Eternal, but you have to work harder to unleash him.

Excited to hear the auto shotty is soon to be buffed. Will be great to play it first time with that mod more viable. I don't really want to use the sticky bomb, as it's all I see people use the shitty for and just looks boring.
I am really interested in pushing the limits of eternal and experimenting, I do not want to SS/balista swap over and over, looks so stale.
Curious to see how restricted it really is.

The restriction aspect doesn't show its head that fast, but I agree with Greg that it's definitely a good game and it really depends on your look on things. It's one of those games that's absolutely fantastic though and a miracle they made it in this day and age, just felt it could be better without some of the design phylosophy behind it.

In terms of broken combo's ironically the snipershot/RPG is still the most busted IIRC, freak'n melts the entire cast of enemies. Pretty wacky to see the Slayer just quick-scope his way through the game.