The Vent Club

Should note I was mainly talking about the gow section, outside of that the point I
Remember agreeing with actually was mainly dmc is more than “kill kill kill” when it comes to moves. I just think he thinks single minded when it comes to gow, he claims for DMC high level play you have more to account more, yet for gow he admitted he never even applied on the higher difficulty’s yet claims he can already tell they aren’t that deep? That was my main point.

What is 'meaningful?

I assume he means it having a said use/identity during combat which I agree with.

Is there really any action in any action game that doesn't do anything?

Everything does SOMETHING.

> Is there really any action in any action game that doesn't do anything?
The point of that was more that, killing isn't something in my eyes. That's the default. So if an attack just does damage, it's empty and void in my eyes. If you have three attacks, all three do damage, and nothing else, then 2 are useless as one will edge out in terms of frame-data etc.

When it gets good is when moves have other things to them, i.e. inate movement (stinger), knockdown, launch, grounded state, poison, draining stamina specificially, guardbreaker etc. Just something unique to it. Then it is a tangiable, unique move.

>unique to it
Yeah. It pretty much comes down to enemy hit reactions being one of the most important things in an action game.

>If you have three attacks, all three do damage, and nothing else, then 2 are useless as one will edge out in terms of frame-data etc.

Is this the point you made with DMC? I remember a part where Cornflakes was justifying moves that do the same thing (Dante having 5 launchers but each had different speed, height, frame data).

>justifying relative moves
Oh, that’s what he meant lol. While I guess they may have some differences, it results in a repetitive result is what raeng is trying to say I think, which is true I guess.

Well, reddit is atrocious. Did not know it was THAT bad. Literal fromsfotware kiddies in the action game threads.

> the argument
Yeah that was basically my point at the time, still is, that a lot of the movesets in action games (DMC included) are bloated.

Agreed.

But where do you draw the line?

He said that five launchers had different height, and such.

If they're very small differences are they still valid?

Imo that's still bloat, I can excuse it in a game like NGB and NGII or even Bayonetta, since you don't have access to all weapon's movesets at all times due to the nature of those games, but in DMC4 and onwards you have all weapons at all times. So there being like 5 Stingers to choose from is too much bloat for example in my eyes, even if one only knocks back 1 meter instead of 1.5 like the other does. That's my opinion though.

I feel like that might be a problem only if the character lacks certain specific moves, but it isn't the case with Dante. He basically has everything he needs, so it makes sense to make similar moves but with different properties. For the launchers for example you have a quick and weak one (High Time), a slower, heavier one that launches higher (Cavaliere, while also having iframes), a ranged one (KC) and one you can charge (Balrog). The only redundant one is the launcher Balrog has in kick mode but it's not a big deal.

> he has everything he needs
Where's his grab Malcar. WHERE IS IT

Or Quicksilver. Or Doppleganger. Or Aerial Stinger (why in godsname did this debut in the mobile game..)

>grab
Right here (and ranged too).
https://youtu.be/YVPKoh-6bJo?t=2088
Joking but it would have been nice to have other moves, the lack of air stinger is especially baffling since Vergil got it in 4SE, but he still has Redline to fill that nice (even though it's a DLC move, what was Capcom thinking with that shit).

>Or Quicksilver. Or Doppleganger
Had to give those to the donut steels, Itsuno's creative juice was running low I'm afraid.

While the lack of those hurt I still like the "same move but slightly varied" thing that he has going for it. Now maybe if DMC returned to being single character only...

> grab
To be fair, I was talking about DMC4 in that original post, since IIRC DMC5 didn't even exist yet.

> air stinger
So many weird choices.

> donut steels
How are we 3 games further and Dante still has the same 4 styles is beyond me.

On topic:
This one takes the cake boys: https://www.reddit.com/r/ninjagaiden/comments/14mdgv1/comment/jq46agf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Not only praising GBG, he PRAISES THE COMBO METER IN GoW for 'incentivizing' good play. I'm beyond impressed.

>praises gbg and mayo as being the best gow proper players
>claims old games were the doom eternal of the action game genre
This is too bad to be true……

>I was talking about DMC4 in that original post
If you were talking about 4 then you're right on every front since Dante in that game is super limited, even compared to DMC3.

>same 4 styles
The number of styles is fine (since I don't see how you could realistically implement more without fucking up the control system), but you still have TS and RG which are pretty limited and GS which doesn't have as many moves as SW has. One thing I thought a while ago which could be cool is to have certain moves be modified depending on which style you're in. For example you have Drive, if you're in SW is the same, if you're in GS you get multiple, weaker projectiles, in RG it could parry attacks from afar etc. They should play around with the fact that they are styles and not just circle button swaps. They already implemented some passive abilities in 5 while Dante is in DT but more would be appreciated.

>Redditor having shit taste
Like pottery. This reply is killing me:

"-It’s effective since it gets him more orbs
-It takes a while to learn those combos
-It’s efficient
-It takes a lot of strategy to do this in the main campaign Show me that xristos guy do shit like that, oh wait, you can’t. GBG is objectively the best gow player"

And all of them are wrong, incredible. I'd like to see GBG clearing GoWIII NUR+ no damage in one sitting like Zim did.

The reddit post sounds like one of us trolling.

They can't be this stupid.

>praises combo meter for incentivizing good play
So he’s a mayo fanboy. Keep in mind, mayo praised the shield dudes in 3 since they FORCE you to use the nemean cestus(I of course know about the CoH trick which is great).

>one of us trolling
Didn't even check his profile but he joined Reddit today and he even replied to Roy's other bait. He's definitely trolling.

FBG ain’t even the best raggy player, there are much better players like SmVr, not Harvard, mickeyrpg and heck, even zesty arguably.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ninjagaiden/comments/14n8j38/im_in_this_video_and_i_feel_attacked/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Well this guy is sad lol.

Well twitter did the dumbest thing ever.

> redditlink
Doesn't seem to go anywhere, removed?

>removed
Link seems to work fine for me, you should be able to find it through some browsing if the subreddit of ninja gaiden 2. It’s pretty much one of those modern tik tok style memes montage shitting on the community. I did admittedly laugh lol. Funny thing is, and I feel like many people can agree, when you get to a shitty section in ninja gaiden 2 you start to relate to stuff like that a lot.

Ah, figured it out. Guy has me blocked. Opened it in a private window.

Eh. It's harmless fun, but the guy is an idiot.

An amusing bit of silliness.

https://twitter.com/neogears27/status/1672864476696137728?s=46
Holy shit this take is bad. Says that if you don’t use brutal kills in the old games… you’re skipping a core mechanic? Yeah sure buddy, there totally isn’t petrification, killing an enemy for red orbs for more upgrades, etc. He even admits he thinks it’s a shallow dmc due to the fact it doesn’t have…. Style switching? That’s literally not what the games are going for my man.

I think the guy blocked me, but yeah he's a casual with no intent on learning mechanics so I'd say just avoid him and not waste your time.

>pushing for BKB/RKB
>on about style
We talking GoW1/CoO with the 10+ hit count thing, then? I doubt they're just all about it as it became later on.

>blocked Royboy
Funny. I know it wasn't for trolling, then.

This is not exactly about complaining nor bashing, but I have found a intersting thing.
(And maybe Seraphim himself is here in this forum? idk maybe he can hear me)

So, There is one "objectively" wrong thing that he said. "If you learn modern, You learn 1 fighting game". No, That`s not true. You learn "TWO" fighting games(lol). One is SF6, obviosuly, the other one is GranBlue Fantasy Versus.

GranBlue Fantasy versus introduced this [Strong/Middle/Weak/Special] control scheme before SF 6 came out. It is similar to SF6` one but it doesn`t affect your damage input but has "cooltime". Special moves have cool times if you use [Special] button, and even if you avoid to use [Special] button and [stick input + face button] with modern control scheme, you would have a cool time to use specific moves for a time(i.e. you couldn`t use any shouryu-ken after using "strong" one for a while because of cooltime, but you could use "weak" and "middle" shoryu ken w/o cooltime).

And This game was made by Arcsystem, So I assume that Arcsystem would addapt this control system for more futre (tie-up & casual) fighting games after watching success of SF6. At least, GranBlue Fantasy Versus Rising succeded that system again.



I say again, This is not a compliain because I already wrote a long complain on his youtube, but I just found intersting thing to talk about.

I think gatekeeping playstyles and mechanics is a bit unnecessary. Fighting games often have this air around them that it's a serious sport and that everyone who plays is 'competing', but a lot of players just pop in that game to have a fun bout without even knowing what EVO is.

> you learn 1 fighting game
You could argue that you learn this game and all future ones, as Modern is clearly the poster boy of attention and could very well be the future of the series with Classic being left in the dust. And you still learn nearly everything the game has to offer. I've played terrible Classic players and fantastic Modern ones. You might not fully grasp combo routes or specific links, but footsies, mixups, mindgames, reads - it's all there on Modern too, and it has very clear advantages.

If freak'n Tokido, Sako and even Justin Wong are experimenting with Modern, I don't feel like it's necesarry to gatekeep it.

Action games all play differently as well, with different mechanics, button inputs and what not, yet your experience from one game transitions to the next because fundamentals like keeping calm under pressure, pattern analysis, adaptability etc. are far more important than knowing how to do an izunadrop or hightime combo.

Personally I do prefer Classic since I've played SF for decades, so muscle memory is a bitch.

> seraphim
He's not on this forum, though there are a few users he recommended to go to here so he knows it exists.

> Pro players using Modern

Agreed - if fantastic players want to explore it then it must have some interesting characteristics. I like to think of Classic and Modern as different "grooves" a la CvS.

Learning the inuts and combos is and always will be the easy part of fighting games. The hard part is learning the 'fundamentals' which are universal across the genre, and not dependent on control scheme.

The thing to understand about Modern controls is that it is not an alternative control scheme but an alternative moveset, similar to the "Old" variants in Super Turbo or the ISMs in SFA3. You lose access to some standard moves, and gain other moves in return. When you pick Modern Ryu, you lose access to the following moves: sMK, sHK, crLP, jLP, jMP, jHK. In return, you gain a 4th variant of each special move, in addition to the normal 3 variants.

The decision of whether to use Modern or Classic purely depends on whether or not those 4th special move variants are worth the loss of some of your normal attacks. Essentially, you're giving up a couple of your footsies buttons to gain access to a 1-button dragon punch. It's a reasonable trade because 1-button dragon punches are ridiculously powerful.

Yeah your playstyle really changes when you play against Modern players. Like a regular Ryu you can sometimes jump, since you notice their reactions are slower etc. But against a Modern Ryu, hell no. And some whiffs isn't a good idea either with a 1-button shinku hadoken (max range drinks with Jamie see you dead).

I agree with Greg, it's a bit like grooves. M-Groove and C-Groove.

> Pro players using Modern

One pro player, Shuto, is actually using modern marisa in SFL 2023(Japanese official team league, from 2018).

In introducing time, He even said that he wanna win for proving that modern marisa being really strong and recommendable. But, In recent session( according to this tweet ), He used modern marisa in first fight and changed to classic marisa at last fight lol.

Saw a very strange twitter thread(it was a quote of the raggy vs elden ring combat thing but that’s not the point) and someone in that thread said that elden ring has more complexity than most action games due to the build variety? Like… what?

Omar:
>more complexity
More redundant iteration of the same thing?

I doubt the dude read "Depth and Complexity" article. It has more content due to vast amount of weapons and spells, but this multiplicity is more or less illusion, because majority of spells and weapons are copies of one class of weapons and fill the same functions. So it appears that you have plurality of choices of how you want to play the game, where in fact most of the options don't change how you play the game all that much - different straight swords are still just straight sword, etc.

So it's complex in this sense? I swear people just use those term vaguely as substitute of saying they like something.

Also to note: Depth vs Complexity issuse already has been discussed, but on the other side of spectrum, there are terms like "shallow/basic" and "simple", which convey similar concepts, but differ in context. Overall, this kind of subjects can feel like exercises in semantics.

Souls games (and most rpgs or action rpgs) tend to be really good at making you feel like your guy is unique, or that replaying the game with fire magic instead of ice magic is a real game changer, while mechanically, you kinda still do the same thing. Sure there's little nuances, like different movesets of weapons in Souls, or specific spells having different damage values - but that the end of the line there's no real change. You hit with the sword > hitstun happens > the end. There's rarely unique moves with special properties, knockdown, mobility and such. Same with the spells.

Ironically of all the soulslikes, Nioh and WoLong do this the best with a lot of moves also having specific (or extremely situational) uses. In part thanks to how those games handle hitboxes.

>most builds do the same things
Something else about this argument is this, if that’s the case, that build variety=complexity, then that does mean that 100 types of a sword that has 3 combos at most, has as much complexity in moment to moment gameplay as the likes as ONLY rebellion from dmc3? I don’t think so. It’s complex in a different way maybe sure, but not as complex as what most action games complexity comes from which even then, differs in the genre. This ain’t Bayo where you can switch load outs on the fly, you have to commit to a build and stick with it. Not that’s it’s bad, just different complexity. This ain’t even talking about enemy states, which souls games don’t hold a CANDLE to when compared to when even compared to the lesser quality games of the genre. And if we are comparing it to the GOW series, it’s no contest at all.

Nawh, DMC's Alastor moveset already has more going on in terms of knockdown, launch, meterbuild and other elements than any of the 3 sword attacks from the 100 swords from Dark Souls.

It is a bit of a moot discussion, since Souls is often lauded for more the grander scheme of things (how it combines world building, lore, leveldesign, etc). It's why I like the earlier entries more as they relied less on their combat mechanics to really 'shine' so to speak.

>moot discussion
Definitely. This was more so of a vent off of course.

On topic of souls, it always amazed me that DeS came year after NG2, but it's the game that revived "hardcore" gaming. Discourse surrounding it will never stop baffling, at how people invent new and completly detached from reality strong points of souls games - hitboxes, boss patterns (which bosses doesn't have pattern?), NG cycles. Souls are neither original in those departament nor do them significantly well, but in normies' mind, they perfected those things. It's like people have problem identifying true strenght of From titles.

Something off my mind while we're at it.

>Depth and Complexity
Much as I like the Convergence mods, almost all of the new spells are just the old spells with different visuals (maybe), sounds (maybe), values (maybe), etc. Typically with a particular effect and DMG type. That is the real change. Like getting several versions of Soul Arrow even before different tiers of the fucking thing (half dozen of those) per class of magic. Huge bloat of 'same shit'. The actually interesting stuff is RARE. With DaS3, the big standouts for me were the teleport (which, of course, has multiple versions these days), counterspell (lesser version of 'silencing' as it doesn't really rebound on them *another version is better with DoT atop this*), self-buff states (not the most amazing, but beats another simple projectile or AoE in terms of changing things up), debuffs (same note), Mind Corruption (big standout that is a variant on Rapport in actuality *rather than being super shit to cast with VERY few things it works on, it works on basically EVERYTHING and permanently, but aside from being able to still hit or be hit by us, they can also still TARGET us thus it is a spell making them not an ally but a third-party to all groups and not even in league with others charmed thus they gun for everyone as everyone comes for they whom are berserk*), etc.

They still haven't had the sense to make spell versions of certain effects (like Alluring Skull, which works on things Aurol Decoy does not *play upon the idea that some enemies detect 'souls' on us in lore aside from casting a hologram to distraction as with an Illusory projection nevermind a proper doppelganger mimicking us as in DMC, Bayo, etc.*). We never get Quick Silver despite LIGHT being TIME in Souls, so the school of magic for these types should involve undoing damage, moving time more quickly (turbo) or even slowing it down (allowing better reaction time *a more advanced version could localize it to just a target/zone and leave us immune*). The concept of 'Repair' should allow for a higher tier (Great Repair) able to mend even broken things (if only just beyond being broken before needing another cast to restore them to full DUR). But then it should also be possible to undo damage to ourselves, allies and even enemies if we so choose. Hell, we could cast it at a foe that just got a buff/heal off to undo that.

More complex mods allow summoning allies (usually existing monsters). Another still lets you become them. I don't recall Convergence letting you do either. Where are my 'hover boot' self-buff effects for going over cliffs? Where are my water walking boots to negate that potential hazard? We can't even get an anti-bog ring back like we used to have let alone a spell saying no to such enviro conditions/hazards. Or spells that MAKE them for OTHERS to deal with. I'm a big fan of turning enemies against each other if not just enabling friendly fire. Hell, simply charming things to not want to beat our ass is pretty alright (along with concealment or deaggro tricks). Not enough love is shown for less flashy things. We can't even get a spell version of parrying using MP to do an easier version of the melee brand (that could work to negate magical attacks, too *still relying on shields to this end*).

Getting back to Mind Corruption, why is there not a more advanced version with more slots, MP, stats, etc. REQ for even temporary Branding if not Domination (so they WILL NOT fight us and cannot even accidentally HIT us if not a higher version still where we cannot hit them thus can gank in CQC more effectively as a team)? Where is my Looney Tunes 'Summon Hole' ability to create a pit anyone can fall into until it times out? Why can't we cast 'kill floor' (at least for lesser enemies to job against) as a high level ability? Why can we not steal the goods from things without killing them if only via magic? Strip the very souls we would get from killing them without even doing DMG? Doesn't have to work on bosses, of course. Even if only a portion of the whole, it would have value. Still miss Karmic Justice (and wish it got another chance with retooling/reworking). All these shitty fire spells and nothing creates fire that sticks to enemies and spreads between them, makes a hazard on the environment that can spread along it (even to foes). No proper barriers in the form of a flame wall. Area Denial is a rare one. So too would be things that trap someone in place. Certainly don't get a 'bone zone' (our Necro can't make corpse bombs let alone rez things to serve us). How about the S/Q spell that acts like going to the menu and back (no change to us, but enemies all de-aggro and such)?

NOTE: There are a half dozen or so interesting buff/debuffs not gone over, but too much of the vast additions are samey shit that doesn't do much for me. Atonement fails to be what it should be (full aggro kept). Could have been good in tandem with Angelic Reprieve (keep attention on you while others handle business). Where is the blessed return of Soul Drain? Taking SL from NPCs, invaders, etc. would be neat (like breaking their gear via acid).

>hardcore baybee
Casual get fucked on by pure Action. They're too dumb for pure RPG. The middle-ground is where Souls exist.

Don’t know why, but I’m thinking about that cornflake article again, mainly after talking with some of his friends about gow and debating with them. And I am not sure what he means by complexity 100 percent, I guess it’s stuff that add up in the end? But I’m not sure if you can use that logic for every game.

>Convergence mod
It's will probably look the the same for Elden Ring, but I kind of wonder, since it's more open when it comes to items. However, I haven't dug deep into modding scene of souls (still have to play daughters of ash), makes me wish that action games had developed modding scene.  I've played 'My House.pk3" for Doom not so long ago and it's somethinfg that's impossible in action games. I guess action games are just cursed.

>other stuff
Not related to games per se, but why arrows(>) make people so mad? Want to thanks GMG for inspiration on this. I've been over to 4chan, but only now I've picked this habbit.

>And I am not sure what he means by complexity 100 percent
Doesn't mean anything. Just shit they make up because they're so insecure about their special game.
And you aren't allowed to say anything good about yours. These guys have got to be mentally ill.

> the arrow
Mostly because, if you use it as intended, it's a delightful way to take their quotes in a way that burns them. I.e. someone says "AC6 is too hard"

> says AC6 is too hard
> literal game for kids

It's such an easy way to rile people up. They also think it's hard to get an overview on. IIRC it originated on IRC though.

> modding scene
Yeah my one dream game is a game with combat as good as NGII with a WAD-capable scene. How insane would that be. Just a gift that keeps on giving.

>My House impossible in action games
To be fair it's impossible in lots of other games too. You can't really compare DOOM's modding scene to anything else. It's legit the one game you can play for the rest of your life thanks to fan content.
The action game modding scene is mediocre but I think it's more due to the tools available rather than the community. DMC5 got some pretty sweet gameplay mods, but that's only because of the flexibility of the RE engine.

>Want to thanks GMG for inspiration on this
I recall GMG saying he picked it up from Usenet. Regardless, it's the fastest way to quote someone and works anywhere, and as long as you space the senteces there should be no issues with readability.

@Roy
>It's such an easy way to rile people up
Yeah that too. I like how the /dbs/ people use it for example.