Chatting about games

I remember it being faster than the PS2 version.

I might grab Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity. I've only played the demo before and couldn't get into it. Tried again and like it now somehow. Looks horrible in handheld though. All blurry and pop in everywhere.

@Royta/Raeng

Some of it is notalgia, although I only ever played the PS2 version as a kid. However, I played tons of Tekken 3 and TTT Arcade is based on the same hardware/engine, so the graphics and art are very similar. It's weird but somehow gives me nostalgia for a game I technically never played!

Not sure if I've ever mentioned it on here before but Tekken is one of my all-time favourite franchises, although I think the series has been heading downhill post-Tekken 5 DR. Tekken 1-TTT are super fast paced because of the damage values, which offer some excitement that I think the more recent games have lost (although T1 doesn't really hold up very well). T6 introduced the bound mechanic and the meta was changed to encourage much longer juggle strings, which I never really took to.

I've just been playing against the computer, I wanted to do arcade mode runs with each character as there were plenty I never really tried back in the day. I found that Kunimitsu was a really cool character that I never gave a chance. I think there is a netplay client for MAME but it might only support the older versions that had poor emulation for most 3D titles - I'm not sure though, I'd have to look into it.

I've not tried it but Fightcade looks like a fantastic bit of software for fighting game fans now. It's basically a collection of emulators bundled within a matchmaking platform that lets you play against others online with rollback netcode. It's even got Sega Naomi support so you can play DoA2 - I think I remember you saying you were a fan of that one, Roy?

Finishing up Nier Automata.

Bought Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition and Age of Calamity.

Been thinking about Fire Emblem Warriors.

I like a few of the Warriors spinoffs as they actually have good mechanics. They always combine the mechanics from the series they're based on. Not sure about this one though.

I don't know anything about FE but I read this Warriors one has a sort of permadeath mechanic where if your character is defeated in the story they become injured and you can no longer use them in story or any other modes. They can be revived but it costs a lot of money and rare materials. This is only in 'classic' mode. If you play on casual it doesn't matter. I'm not sure if there's are difficulty settings or just permanent settings. I don't like this mechanic.

Another I'm not feeling positive about is the weapon triangle. I forget how it goes but each weapon is strong or weak against another. So bows are strong against flying for example. I guess it's similar to El Shaddai's three weapon thing.

It also has a break meter. It really feels like every RPG/ARPG has these now. I'm not a fan. I see no point in having to deplete a meter, just so I can deplete the 'real' meter. Hyrule Warriors AoC has something like this with weak points.

The game looks really boring too. A few clones and general drab looking areas. Character playstyles don't look fun outside maybe the dragon riders.

FE Warriors: Three Hopes is coming out soon and looks way better. Seems it has class switching and elemental stuff. Might wait for more news on that.

Was considering Three Houses. Looks like an interesting RPG. Then I read stats are random. The only way to fix them is the planting grind. No thanks.

I had a random thought a few days ago. What if characters from different franchises were forced to take on the Clone War from GoW1? Assuming their moveset stays the same, and some of the properties translate accordingly (what causes knockback will knock the clones back, same for launchers). What if Ryu, Dante, Raiden, Gene, and more, had to fight against the infamous clones?

But there is a catch. They have to fight them with their base kit (i.e. what they have at the start of their respective games), in other words, imagine if you were doing a PAIN run with each of these characters. Would they be able to survive? Would they have an easier time than Kratos? Or would it be impossible for them to win at all?

I've talked about this with GMG and SBK, and both of their inputs were pretty insightful. But I'm interested to hear more thoughts, so that's why I'm posting this here. You can definitely bring up more characters if you want to. Heck, you can also bring up another combat scenario (and the same or another set of rules) to see if they can win in said setting.

Wouldn't Gene just be able to counter hit them out of the ring with high side kick?

Do the characters keep their movement options? That's probably going to be more important than their starting kit.

> gene
He'd probably be able to counter-hit them with HSK to ring them out, also counterhit uppercuts could lead to infinite group-juggles using SRK.

> dante
Strangely, I think Dante's one of the few who is absolutely fucked here since his base version in all his games is absolutely ass. Even DMC4 Dante wouldn't be able to do much I reckon as he lacks Royal-Release unupgraded afaik.

> Ryu
His NG1 version would struggle insanely since there are no walls around, so he'd probably have to resort to simple and boring XY strings while using >Y(hold) to temporarily ground certain enemies to create openings.

His NG2 version would absolutely slaughter them assuming his counters work. He's far too fast and mobile for the clones to deal with. Since the clones are also humanoid, he'd probably be able to GT them off the stage and keep offscreen ones staggered with shurikens.

NG3RE version all depends if SoB works.

> Raiden
Assume they can be zandatsu'd, the clones wouldn't even get a chance to move. Raiden is notoriously overpowered in his own fastpaced game already, let alone in a game like GoW1 he'd just absolutely stomp.

> Sam Gideon
Just for fun, imagine this situation.

> Leon
On Pain he's absolutely fucked, though headshot into kick might do some wonders. On PAIN he still has access to grenades so flashbangs would be lovely, same with incendiary to keep them locked down. He'd also be able to control the family probably "Lysandra, HIDE", putting them in a nearby dumpster so he can focus on the clones. If Leon has his entire kit it'd be a hilarious situation of minethrower funzone.

> bayo
Witchtime into WW to ring them out, if it's Bayo1 NSIC styled then she'd have to use her mobility to get some dodge-ofset WWs but she's still far too mobile for the clones to deal with.

Seig (Chaos Legion) actually starts with Thanatos in its adult form, then loses it after the first stage. But you said what they start with.

Summoned, it easily knocks enemies around. Assist slows everything down and shoots homing lasers while Seig gets in free damage. Is the family included? The slowdown could help out if they're in trouble.

Seig himself has almost nothing. Not even the full sword string. He has the jumping spin slash which knocks down most enemies. Also counter hits for some extra damage.

If you were to say the prologue stage is not the true start, then he 'starts' with Guilt. That gives him a longer sword string, Midnight Punisher (Guilt's assist) which is a dash attack that has i-frames, and 3 Guilt soldiers. They'd probably get beaten down but could serve as distractions.

Are the characters allowed their super modes/DTs?

Juliet (Lollipop Chainsaw) could drop kick them out of the ring with ease. Can be done quickly and doesn't require any special conditions. Normal hit. Too bad she doesn't start with the grab. She'd wipe them out.

What could the Nanobreaker guy do? He has the rope that pulls enemies in. Could at least help out the family but not much else.

Amaterasu (Okami) starts with nothing. Like actually zero. Just a 4 hit melee. You don't get Power Slash until after the tutorial/intro area.

Knack has nothing but basic melee and a dash at the start.

>HSK
Still not familiar enough with the game to know for sure how Gene would work, but he'd need a good crowd control option to keep the clones from hitting the family, so single target options would only be good against the one clone you'd want to be killing in order to empty his spawn pool.

>keep their movement options
I suppose if they start with them. GoWII Kratos can't fly around during combat in PAIN (since he gets the ability to use it later), so if that's anything to go by, yeah, as long as characters start with these options.

>Seig starts with Thanatos, but loses him in the first stage
Then @GodModeGOD would have to weigh in to give the specifics. I know that PR usage isn't allowed in GoWII PAIN runs (despite the fact that you start with it, but lose it a bit later), but that uses meter (something not allowed in PAIN either), so that's not allowed.

So if summoning Thanatos doesn't consume some sort of resource, then I guess he'd be fine. But again, GMG would have to give the specifics. Not sure if you can actually use the wings in GoWIII at the start, then later, but if you can, chances are that the option you noted would be fine.

>is the family included?
During the fight? Absolutely.

>not the true start
I know that one of the rules for PAIN+ (not PAIN) disallows the use of 'Relics' ('No Rage' becomes 'No 'Relics'), and they're usually given to you later in the game, like the Fleece or the Amulet that can slow down time if a certain statue is around. Again, GMG would have to share his thoughts.

>super modes
Pretty sure they're not allowed, since Rage in general is banned for PAIN in GoW. Also, they'd count as a resource being consumed, so there's that.

--------------------

Raeng:
>Gene
Not sure if he can survive all the way to the end while protecting the family, but if you say he has some hope, then let's say that's 1 out of 1 character so far that can beat the Clone War.

>Dante is fucked
Wouldn't DMC3 Dante be able to do something? Isn't one of the starting Styles RG? Heard that was pretty OP, but not sure if it requires upgrades to be so, or if the way it works goes against any of the PAIN rules.

Still, that would give us one out of two characters who can beat this encounter.

>no walls around
Wouldn't he be able to abuse them for a very short period of time at the very start (where walls exist)? Still, highly doubt he'd be able to just win before the walls cease to exist, so yeah, he'd still have a difficult time.

>NG2 Ryu stomps
Then that makes it two out of three characters. Looking better than what I imagined.

>Raiden would win easily too
Three out of four. Surprising, I have to admit.

>Sam Gideon
Referring to the MC in Vanquish?

>RE4
>PAIN
Curious, never thought about a game with guns working under PAIN conditions. How would that even work? I know that in RE4 you can knife almost everything to death, except one boss (Salazar). Not sure if ammo pickups are allowed, but if not, then it would be impossible for Leon to win that fight. Then again, it's skippable (not sure if all versions allow this, let alone the run itself). But if you say grenades are allowed, then maybe it is doable (as you can pick up stuff, like ammo for your handgun).

So if grenades are allowed, then that would give Leon a chance, but not sure if his starting attache case can hold enough to kill all 101 clones. Also, I'd like to mention that the family would behave like normal, so they stay at the center of the arena (...where it is the most troublesome for them to be at), but in exchange, I'd allow the grenades to not pose a threat to them, since Kratos himself can't damage them via any means (unless he deflects a Zf clone's projectile their way, but that's still not Kratos directly doing any damage to them).

Owed to the concerns of the limited inventory (and assuming you're also able to pick stuff up), I'd say that gives us three out of five characters who can beat the Clone War.

On that note, since you're bringing up Leon, what of the MC of Evil Within? Don't know his name. Or even Snake?

>Bayo is far too mobile for the clones
Would she be able to use that mobility to deal with the clones and protect the family in the process? I won't count her until I get some more clarification.

Also, one thing to keep in mind is that you can pull aggro away from the family. Maybe that would give gun users some advantage? But then again, Artemis clones will be mostly focused on the family, not you.

Birdman:
>Seig
Does he have some way to keep a stack of clones controlled, then focus on emptying the spawn pool of one clone at a time (either via quick instant kills or ringouts)? Maybe pull aggro away from the family with his summons? But it still would be ideal if you could focus on one clone at a time (unless you can easily sweep them all).

>Juliet
What of her crowd control options? Is drop kick a single target technique? Will wait for clarification on these two to count them.

>Amaterasu
>Knack
Three out of seven, then.

Will mention that Sora wouldn't be able to do anything. He only has his three hit combo, so he's lacking in a much needed crowd control option. If this were NUR, he'd stomp with a wide variety of attacks (mostly Magnet, and if it somehow doesn't work on them, Magnet Splash would, as that works on everything).

If Hotsuma can consistently keep his Tate chain all the way to the end (and assuming that counts, even though it's a forced upgrade *but he doesn't technically start with the cursed sword*), then he might be able to win. That would give us four out of eight characters who can beat the clones (so far).

Also, what of the MC of Zone of the Enders 2? Not sure if Samanosuke (Onimusha) will be able to do anything. The MC of Astral Chain? Jack from Samurai Jack: Battle Through Time? Characters from Dark Souls?

HSK counter hit in God Hand sends the enemy flying forward like a projectile, and if more enemies stand behind, they will be sent flying as well.

Gene's basic moveset is great and has lots of options for crowd control. For example, you can launch an enemy with a charged uppercut (or uncharged if it's a counter hit), then launch him again Shoryuken and finally end it with a flying round kick. Shoryuken can also launch multiple enemies together.

Another option you have is launching downed enemies with the heel drop kick and then send them flying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBVERCk9w94 all of this is part of the starter moveset. In this vid Gene sends a dead enemy towards another enemy, which is another useful thing you can do. As long as a corpse doesn't vanish, you can still launch and send it, although heel drop kick won't work.

>So if summoning Thanatos doesn't consume some sort of resource
It does.

>Seig
He has no chance under those conditions then. He'd only be able to melee and dodge. Very low damage output. Family would be toast.

>What of her crowd control options?
None at the start.

>Is drop kick a single target technique?
It can hit more than one if they're close enough. There's only three clones at a time (plus the projectile one) right? I could easily dropkick them out. And as soon as the spawn in I'll be there to send them straight out.

>Hotsuma
Don't forget his shurikens. They temporarily paralyze enemies. Shuriken burst would be good here too though you'd run out pretty fast.

>MC of ZOE2
The robot is way too big for that arena. Is it allowed to fly out?

>Samanosuke
Normal sword but can still use Issen from the start. Kick for knockdown into down stab.

GN1:
>can send enemies flying if they're behind the one you're using HSK on
Good. Then that should improve his chances.

>flying round kick
This is the slow-mo kick, right?

>launching downed enemies and send them flying afterwards
Sounds pretty good, then. Though Gene will need to rely on counterhits through the whole fight. Fully charging an uppercut on an enemy that doesn't even pay attention to you sounds like a neat way to set up the slow mo kick... if he wasn't focused on killing the family you're supposed to protect. Gene would have to act pretty fast (and have good positioning to hit all of them at once) so the family doesn't get beaten up too much. Also, the Artemis clones can be deadly for the family. One of them being on the loose is bad enough (if you don't do something about him), two or more could end the fight before you can even process what happened.

Birdman:
>uses a resource
Then not allowed. He may have a chance in NUR though. NUR+ if meter extensions aren't forced (assuming there's any at all). So that's four out of ten (forgot to count Sora) characters who can beat this fight with their base kit.

>hit more than one if they're close enough
Does she have a means to stun them and group them? Because not all clones spawn right next to each other. Even less so for the crawling spawns (which includes Artemis clones).

>three clones at a time
Four at the start. Two of these four, when killed, spawn one more (along with the one you just killed). So if you kill the starting four (or two specific clones), you'd end up with six.

>shurikens
Not sure if that would count as a consumable. Would have to ask GMG (they're part of your starting moveset, and can be picked up throughout stages in Shinobi). Otherwise, yeah, I suppose the stun effect can be good, especially the AoE one if you use it sparingly (though there are 101 clones you must kill *not counting the Zf one*, so you probably won't have enough for all of them).

>allowed to fly out
You mean the act of flying itself? If the robit can do so at the start, I suppose. Or do you mean flying out of the arena? Kratos could jump out of it (but he'd obviously die), so there are no invisible walls preventing you from going out of the arena, if that's your question.

>Issen
How does this work?

>Does she have a means to stun them and group them?
Not at the start.

>Because not all clones spawn right next to each other.
It will be no issue to run over and drop kick them.

>Four at the start. Two of these four, when killed, spawn one more (along with the one you just killed). So if you kill the starting four (or two specific clones), you'd end up with six.
I don't see six as a problem. The dropkick is so easy to use. I could run around and have them all out of the area in no time.

>so you probably won't have enough for all of them
Not even close.

>If the robit can do so at the start, I suppose.
It can. Most of the combat is in the air.

>Or do you mean flying out of the arena?
Yes.

>Kratos could jump out of it (but he'd obviously die), so there are no invisible walls preventing you from going out of the arena, if that's your question.
Yeah. So you could just hover outside and bomb the arena.

>How does this work?
Time your attack at a specific point in the enemy's attack to do a counter. You're invincible during its animation and does high damage. There is a blocking version when you press attack just after the attack connects.

How about Viewtiful Joe? I can't remember the start. I think he can't even transform until a certain point.

2B could probably run circles around them and use the dodge counter a lot. Constant barrage of Pod bullets.

>dropkick is easy to use
>can ring them out quickly
I see. If Juliet is fast enough to attack them with dropkicks before the clones hit the family, then that would make her the fifth (out of 11) character that can beat this encounter.

Note: This talk is also getting me more curious about the game itself. Sadly, I don't have the means to play it at the moment.

>combat is in the air
Given the 'style' of the game, I should have expected as much.

>high damage, invincible counter
What's the range of the attack? Perhaps it would be sensible to say short.

>Viewtiful Joe
Guessing the transformation is gotten early enough (first stage) to be allowed (for GMG: If it helps, the transformation itself is part of the tutorial where we learn how to use Joe, as well as how skull markers and a few other mechanics work *explaining the latter isn't relevant, but if you must know, it's something that makes telegraphs for both high and low attacks more obvious*). Don't recall when you get the camera moves. Recall that one of them allowed you to send enemies flying into each other when they were in a dizzy state, but I'd say its use would still be questionable, as the clones have no such state to begin with. Without these options working as you want to, I don't think Joe has a chance. So, we're at five out of twelve characters.

>2B
Would need a bit more elaboration. Crowd control, grouping, and access to an instant kill (or super strong) option would be ideal. Or just a strong option that covers a wide area, preferably if it can be used again quickly enough, or if it stuns enemies for a while (giving you the chance to use it again).

>fast enough to attack them with dropkicks before the clones hit the family
For they all run for the family? I've only beaten normal mode.
If they do they'll be closer together to possibly be hit all at once.

>What's the range of the attack? Perhaps it would be sensible to say short.
He dashes forward a bit. Can catch near enough enemies.

>2B
>crowd control
None at that point. Just super fast and can be firing the Pod at all times.

>run for the family
Yeah. They're their primary target, but as noted, you can pull aggro away from the family if you poke the clones, which lasts for a few moments until they decide to go for the family again. You're the Zf's clone main target, but outside blindsides (which, admittedly enough, can happen pretty often), your concern should still be the melee clones.

However, they can behave pretty oddly at times. They can decide to move around the family for a bit, or even get away from them for a few moments, so this randomness factor could be a thing to consider for Juliet's case.

>catch near enough enemies
Would you say it can hit as many enemies as the AoE of Plume can?

>fire the Pod at all times
Got a link to see how this works? Or if you want, you can explain it.

>Would you say it can hit as many enemies as the AoE of Plume can?
No, I don't think it can.

>Pod
A machine-gun that never stops.

What about games with unlockable characters?

You don't have them from the start but once you unlock them they're still unupgraded. Was thinking about some of the characters in Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity.

> Dante
His DMC3/4 version has Royal Guard, but not the ability to use said stored power to deal damage (royal release). IIRC those need to be unlocked first. He even lacks Stinger or any general knockdown aside from a launcher. He's fucked.

> Raiden
To give a bit of insight, Raiden can slow down time to about 1% speed while he moves at normal speed (noted as his heightened reactions). He can only do this for a short while, but using zandatsu replenishes him completely. By the time one second passes for the Clones they'd all be dead. If he can't zandatsu them (owed to lore or w/e) then he might still have a chance since he's got a sweep in his moveset. It'd be damn hard, but he'd have to align up the clones and loop them with the sweep, very fucking hard tho.

> Sam Gideon
Yeah Vanquish. When piloted by a master player I highly doubt most enemies would stand a chance since PAIN doesn't affect him (can still pick up weapons as normal, has no upgradesystem to speak of).

> Gene
He'd be able to sorta of 'cheese' the fight also if he wanted. The family is immune to friendly-fire, so he can just do a single counter hit near the family and just spam Shoryuken since the clones keep jumping towards him and the family, getting caught in the process.

> Leon
It was more a joke reply, his entire strategy would rely on hiding the family in a dumpster and then going to town haha.

> Sebastian (evil within)
Base version has a pistol, a horrid melee and a few matches to light enemies on fire. In theory he could shoot one to fall down and torch him, setting a few others on fire. But after that he's toast and he couldn't keep up the DPS-race to keep the family safe.

> Bayo1
On a PAIN-type run she'd definitely be able to do it since wicked weaves cause a hard knockdown. It'd all be a matter of lining the initial spawn up and catching them all in a high AoE wicked weave. Kratos can do it with his limited moveset, then Bayonetta definetly can.

>Bayo2
Umbral Climax is part of her starting moveset so she can quite literally use the above strat. and every few minutes just laugh as she decimates the entire screen.

> Hotsuma from Shinobi and Hibana from Kunoichi
Interesting idea, and I'm pretty sure he'd also be able to do it. The key would be killing the first Clone, after which the Tate chain starts. Since this is one long fight that counts as a single encounter, his strength would keep boosting until the final kill, meaning he'd OHKO every Clone after about 3-4 kills. Since he's so insanely fast the clones wouldn't reach the family before he'd kill them all. Would just be a matter of rapid spawn killing with kicks and limited kunai as fallback should things go awry.

> Master Chief
The Halo1 magnum holds around a 112 bullets, the Clones have no shields and are humanoid so headshot capable. If the player is some sort of divine genius when it comes to aim he could technically headshot them all. If he's allowed to use later weapons (pickups) like the halo1 shotgun or heavenforbit drive in the arena with a Scorpion Battle Tank (a pickup, is a pickup) the clones would be in for one helllll of a ride. Since friendly fire isn't an issue he'd also be able to stick grenades to the family as a nasty surprise.

> max payne
Would die of alcohol poisoning after losing yet ANOTHER family

> RyuNG1
As noted, he needs walls for his best attacks at the base-moveset. Ryu1 is extremely lacking in options, even if he starts with 3 weapons. His best bet would've been the wall-attack using the Nunchacku, which knocks down and has a high AoE (for his moveset that is), but since there's no wall he's limited to very basic moves which just won't carry him.

> RyuNG2
Note though, I'm assuming that we'll have him be piloted by the best player.

Dante with unupgraded RG can still Release and Royal Release in 3, 4 and 5, but the one in 3 is the strongest, so he might have a chance.
DMC5 Dante starts with the shotty (which can knock away enemies easily) and Balrog, which has a Stinger like move even without upgrades (and the normal punches can infict a decent amount of DPS). He also has unlimited ground dashes without the need to guard cancel them, so good mobility is checked. If he also had Rainstorm it would be great since it inflicts crumple stun in 5, but unlike DMC3 this one is unlocked only for GS lv.2.

Birdman:
>don't think it can
I see. You'd also be depending on a clone attacking (which could mean giving others some time to attack the family). Don't think he stands a chance, though I could be wrong. Five out of thirteen.

>magine gun that never stops
If it's indeed a constant barrage of attacks, then she may have a chance. Can it hit in only one direction? Can it be moved?

>unlockable characters
Why not?

>You don't have them from the start but once you unlock them they're still unupgraded. Was thinking about some of the characters in Hyrule Warriors Age of Calamity.
There should be no problem, then. Tell me about these characters.

Raeng:
>slow down time to about 1%
>he can move normally
>can only be used for a short while
>but using Zandatsu still replenishes him completely anyway
Then yeah, the Clones will be screwed if Raiden fights them.

>PAIN doesn't affect Sam
Oh? So the same as Hotsuma (assuming the cursed sword is allowed at all...)?

>Gene can cheese the encounter
Would guess that getting counterhits from a clone would be really easy as well, since their attacks are pretty telegraphed.

>hiding the family in a dumpster
Hilarious. Wonder if the clones would still attempt to attack the container, giving you plenty of room to attack them whenever you want.

>Sebastian
A pity, but that's how things are. Five out of fourteen.

>Hinaba
>from Kunoichi
Does she have similarities with Hotsuma's moveset?

>Magnum can hold 112 bullets
If each of these bullets can OHKO the clones, then you're permitted to miss at least 11 of them (101 clones). And since their target is always the family (not you) unless you poke them, you can also shoot them from close range. Though it also depends on how fast the player is, and for how long they can stay focused. They must be fast enough to keep killing clones before any of them get a chance to touch the family. Crawling spawns would complicate matters, since you can no longer stay at the left of the arena and keep shooting things in front of you, because some crawling clones spawn precisely at the left of the arena. If you were at close range (center) shooting clones, then the slow crawling clone will appear behind you.

So you may want to stay in the left (or right) spot at all times, but that also means the clones will be more far away from the player. So yeah, your 'divine genius' statement may be a great way to sum things up.

In that case, since it's possible for him to beat the clones (assuming that Magnum you speak of is part of his starting arsenal), then that means we're at six out of fifteen characters.

>pick-ups
Again, would have to consult with GMG.

>Max Payne
That phrasing makes me think that he'd have no chance. Six out of sixteen.

>NG1 Ryu won't be able to cut it
It's alright. As long as the same character (regardless of what game they appear in) can beat the clones, that's all it matters. In this case, it makes up for the fact that NG2 Ryu can best them. But it's still interesting to see if multiple versions of the same character can still pull off that feat.

>piloted by the best player
Is it that difficult? But still, as long as the possibility exists, it still counts.

Malcar:
>unupgraded Dante can still use Release and Royal Release
Oh? Then I want to know how this works in more detail. Does it have a big enough AoE (if at all) to hit everything? Can it kill most things with few uses? If he needs a clone to hit him, it may still be problematic, as other clones might be busy slashing the family. If it generates some sort of big enough barrier to put Dante in front of the family to absorb attacks from most angles, then that might be a different story.

>Can it hit in only one direction? Can it be moved?
It can be moved in any direction.

>she might have a chance
Her speed and basic attacks would probably be enough.

>unlockable characters
What about characters you get in later playthroughs like A2 in Nier Automata?,

>There should be no problem, then. Tell me about these characters.
Great Fairy's projectile spam.

>but using Zandatsu still replenishes him completely anyway
Wait doesn't he have to rip out robo spines to get this?

>Gene
Uppercut into that jumping spin kick might be better.

Haven't played GOW1 beyond a couple hours so just going off of Youtube video plus what you all said in the thread.

Classic Doomguy cleans up handily with BFG + some ammo, BFG tracers have massive damage and crowd control. If you count "no upgrades" as just pistol and 50 bullets he has no chance though. 2016 and Eternal versions might be able to win with sheer DPS like Sam Gideon.

Monster Hunter loses pretty quickly, the game is designed around 1v1 so all the weapon movekits have little to no crowd control.

Nioh protag probably doesn't have enough CC on any of the base movesets, I don't think they could deplete Ki fast enough to keep everything on lockdown.

I'll perhaps touch on the matter more later, but getting your shit back from an optional mechanic doesn't make it NOT the case you're using meter. Raiden doesn't get to break the rules.

^ Ah, yes, meter. Somehow escaped me that by 'replenishment' it implied some form of meter usage.

If that's all he could count on in order to not get screwed, then we'd be back to five out of sixteen. But if he has some other alternatives, then the counter would remain the same.

>moved in any direction
Forgot to ask if it only fires in one direction (a straight line). Even then, assuming the top right clone aligns with the machine gun's line of fire, it should hit everyone, at least up until the slow crawling clones start appearing.

>basic attacks
Which consist of...?

>characters you get in later playthroughs
Guess they'd be allowed. But since GMG is here, his input has more weight than mine in this matter.

>Great Fairy's projectile spam
What does it do?

>rip out robo spines
If it uses meter at all, the move itself can't be used. Same as GoWII and PR.

>Doomguy
I'd like to hold off thoughts about pistols until GMG clarifies if they're allowed (just in case). They're technically a resource being spent (which can then be 'refilled' later, almost always at will *by meeting certain conditions first, of course*). If talk about HP being a resource that's being spent needed to be brought up (just not actually enforced, so don't worry, PAIN doesn't automatically mean ND), then some rules might be stricter than what I had thought. Until then, let us wait.

>Monster Hunter
Not sure if there's more than one MC (or if you just create one yourself) in these series, but if that isn't the case, I'll count it as one for the sake of convenience. Five out of seventeen (depending on if Raiden can handle the fight with options that don't use meter).

>Nioh protag
>depleting ki
Sounds like a resource. Five out of eighteen.

>replenishment
That was just about the chests as a means to refill lost HP (MP wasn't allowed to be spent as a resource to begin with). GoW1 only has a PAIN, but it is essentially the PAIN+ of its entry. All others are to endure what would be GoW legacy rulings for how they would deal with the fight. Were this a lesser run like NUR+, it would greatly open up the options of the others.

NOTE: Regarding resources, "Ki" in Nioh is effectively stamina needed to even attack at all. That has to be permitted (like in Souls where Stamina is something even PAIN+ can't touch or you can't play the game).

Kratos has the right control tools to skate by. There won't be many in Action suited to the scenario as is (can't even grab the family to heal them without pretending at least those with the option to do a grab on-command will transfer HP in that fashion). Liberties being taken certainly make it more doable. Protection/Escort just isn't normal for these titles. Bayo dabbling was odd as is.

NOTE: Sometimes the situation just won't suit others. How many of them could stay off the floor for a minute? Is it not basically just going to be those with Enemy Step as a thing in their games? If we were talking even relatively easy stuff like traversal sections, those without platforming (or even jumping) are SoL.

>here
I have other priorities coming first. Zim and Zaser's videos. GFAQs rounds. Trolling Gokeks. If I'm not back to work, I'll consider this matter (again).

>Does it have a big enough AoE
It makes Dante dash forward and hits every enemy in his path, also launching them in the air. The AoE isn't that big, but if the enemies are clumped up you can hit a lot of them. Same thing for 4 and 5, but there you take more time to charge up the meter.

>Can it kill most things with few uses?
In DMC3 DMD you can kill the Prides (easiest enemy in the game) with one Royal Release in a NUR scenario, but for every other enemy it takes at least two.

>If he needs a clone to hit him, it may still be problematic
Yeah he needs to block a hit both for charging the meter and doing a Royal Release. If an enemy hitbox comes in contact with him while blocking he will block the hit (making them bounce if it's a perfect block), and if you release just at the right time you'll do a Royal Release. If Dante stands in front of the family and the clones attacks can also hit him he could do it.

> clones going dumpster diving
If we're fusing game-logic, they're immortal in the dumpster, since the Ganados cannot touch Ashley in it either.

> Master Chef can miss 11 times
Assuming he has a decent enough positioning and can use the (royal) auto-aim from his games this is pretty much a stomp in his favour. Fact that he has regenerative health means he can play pretty agressively too.

> Raiden uses Meter
Which is a core mechanic that the game is built around, every challenge run (aside from Way of the Blade) allows it and the game basically falls apart without it. Ditto for Sam from Vanquish, you should be allowed to use meter imo.

> RyuNG2
It's mostly that you have to play extremely agressive and have your cancels on point. One slip up and Ryu is dead. Can he Guillotine Throw them? If that's the case then he can ring them out insanely easily.

> hinaba from kunoichi
She's basically Hotsuma, but faster and increased mobility (airkick), but deals a bit less damage. Her charged-attack is also a homing projectile instead of a slash like Hotsuma's.

> Kiryu
Guy can't even beat his own games on a NUR, let alone in another one's game.

> Nioh2
On a PAIN run he'd be screwed I think, but if you get to use some of the unlockable moves he could pretty easily infinite the entire arena using sweeps.

> Sora
PAIN doesn't really work in his games, so I assume this would be a level-1 run. If magic is allowed, it's a massssive stomp, but if not allowed due to it being a meter-mechanic, then he only has basic attacks which just won't cut it.

Bonus question: what about the dad-of-war?

>if it only fires in one direction (a straight line).
Yes.

>Which consist of...?
Sword slashes. Not wide. But she's fast and can dodge out then right back in.

>What does it do?
A horizontal line of spike plants appear behind her then fly forward. Massive range. Can be dodge cancelled to fire faster. Even without full upgrades it's insane.

>If it uses meter at all, the move itself can't be used. Same as GoWII and PR.
It doesn't but what I'm getting at is, are abilities that do something in their own game like Raiden ripping out cores or dismemberment in LC, still going to do the same on the clones? Like is their no issue that the clones aren't cyborgs and don't have robo spines to rip out?

>Ditto for Sam from Vanquish, you should be allowed to use meter imo
Has anyone ever done a Vanquish run not using meter? No sliding, slowdown, etc?

>core mechanic
In his game (for what that matters). And this is meant to be an equivalent of PAIN+ (Kratos lacks the things to take away for a distinction, so PAIN does it via legacy rules *not philosophy*). We've been over this, I believe (had to discuss what things did or did not need meter to be spent *things that just needed it full, but did NOT spend meter were a-okay*). NG, as well.

Some titles don't even register the challenge (seems that way with LoZ:OoT) thanks to so many exceptions and the bits where the run exists barely mean anything. Others don't work well (if at all). Just how it goes. And for the thought experiment, special exceptions are not made. The fight is as bad as it is owed to being balanced for AoE MP spam with upgrades enabling infinite arcane storms (and family hugging to fuel it). That we have an alternative at all is just an accident of circumstance.

>falls apart
A pity. Enjoy slapping things to death. As ever, not all titles are good fits for it without arbitrary adjustments. Sticking to legacy and even philosophy mentality, it wouldn't even be up for discussion that the meter is denied him just as Bayo doesn't get to spend MP, Starkiller can't use the Force, etc. They just get to lose here, then.

In NUR/NUR+? I'm sure they'll be much more competitive (though Bayo might still not be coasting super easy since one would expect VH to remove passive WT *she has plenty of non-purchased skill ways around this anyway* ala NSIC...or maybe not *if she's just in his game scaled down by the rules of GoW, then she's her Normal self, but with halved DMG and taking x5*). Just that PAIN doesn't allow resources (meters, consumables, etc.) when in 'true form' (not watered down). Just your basic kit as you started with it. THAT is PAIN. I suppose Bayo having WT means she has the best chance in PAIN+.

>William
No chance in Hell. He would have Ki (can't perform attacks, evades, blocks, etc. without them), but his ability to use any starter set-up wouldn't be able to protect the family. As for Nioh itself, I believe the mater of weapon level/quality came up. The game is power weighted against something like PAIN/PAIN+. Not a practical run at all, is it? But as before, I'll get back to this at a later date.

I keep seeing these phrases like 'this game has no business being this good' or 'better than it has any right to be'.

What exactly is the meaning here? Better than expected?

Excuse the delay.

GMG:
>Were this a lesser run like NUR+, it would greatly open up the options of the others.
Indeed. Sora (KH2) would crush the fight with ease. Unsure on how KH1 Sora would fare. Hotsuma would still be able to win.

> "Ki" in Nioh is effectively stamina needed to even attack at all. That has to be permitted (like in Souls where Stamina is something even PAIN+ can't touch or you can't play the game).
Noted. Then I'll need more elaboration about what the MCs of Nioh (and Souls' probably) can do in PAIN.

>Sometimes the situation just won't suit others
Yeah, that's true.

>no chance in Hell
Oh? Well then, the counter remains unchanged.

Malcar:
>AoE isn't that big
I see. My idea was that he could put himself in front of the family and absorb attacks, but in order to hit everything in front of him (and without a relatively big enough AoE), he'd have to be either on the far left/right instead of center (to protect the family as best as he can) so he can hit everyone afterwards. But that would mean giving the clones on the opposite end an opportunity to hit the family, so I don't think he'd be able to make it all the way to the end, or even the difficult parts of the fight.

>takes at least two Releases to kill stronger enemies
Thinking about it, even if he could one shot them, the thing about letting clones get in too many hits might be Dante's biggest problem in the fight.

>If Dante stands in front of the family and the clones attacks can also hit him he could do it.
Think one thing Dante could do is use his guns to lure the Clones towards him, since some clones might attack from an angle where Dante isn't quite able to protect the family. But then again, Artemis clones won't care about that as much, IIRC you can only get their attention for about 2 seconds before they turn around to attack the family again.

Raeng:
>immortal in the dumpster
Yeah, if there was a dumpster nearby, Leon can't lose by way of the family getting killed. He just needs to take care to not get cornered.

>regenerative health
Oh? Curious. Not sure how PAIN would treat this mechanic, but just to entertain the idea, and if he could somehow heal the family, he'd have better chances of winning (unless he lacks the means to know them back for a window where he's able to heal them).

>should be allowed to use meter
GMG addressed this, and yes, had a feeling PAIN rules would be stricter than what I had in mind. Oh well.

>Can he Guillotine Throw them?
Not sure. Does it use meter? Can Ryu use it at the start? Or do you mean something else?

>basically Hotsuma with greater mobility and less damage output
If she can start killing things in one strike from her blade at some point, I'd say she may have a better chance than Hotsuma, if only for the increased mobility (damage output wouldn't matter at some point, unless they explicitly need to start their Tate chain as soon as possible).

>can't beat his own games in a NUR
Wut? As in generic NUR (not PAIN)?

>PAIN doesn't work for Sora's games
True. Would be stuck with a basic three hit combo in the first two games (and no way of blocking or rolling *unless you consider the 'start' of the game in 2 as the point where Sora is playable, bit even then, being able to block attacks doesn't do much for Sora in this case, and he could still do that without Guard, just much more difficult to pull off*).

On NUR, he has plenty of tricks he could use. Stitch can auto-parry attacks, Magnet is a thing, as well as its MP free variation (Magnet Splash). Reflega casts a big enough barrier to protect both Sora and the family from any attack, from any angle.

>Soytos
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't PAIN itself ruled out from ever happening in nuGoW? Either way, I very much doubt Soytos has a chance here, but both you and GMG (even when he hasn't played the game *though to be fair, I believe he still knows more than your average casual about it*) know far more about it than myself, so I'll let you guys decide if the clones will be able to just slaughter him or not. Unsure if Boi will be of help.

Birdman:
>fires in a straight line
Noted. If positioned in a way that it always hits the top right clone just as he spawns, as well as the other clones (while creating a dividing point that, when 'trespassed', it hits every clone it touches), then this may be a decent option to control the fight.

>non-wide sword slashes
Then she would have to be extremely fast herself to be able to hit everyone before they get to hit the family first.

>spike plants
How often can this be used? What are its properties (i.e. does it cause enemies to stagger, knocks them back, etc.)?

>are abilities that do something in their own game like Raiden ripping out cores or dismemberment in LC, still going to do the same on the clones?
Good question. As GMG suggested, we're working off the assumption that none of these characters can 'hug' the family (i.e. heal them), as they probably lack the means to do so functionally even in their own games (probably not because these characters never get to hug and heal a family of their own, but I could be off the mark here). I believe that we can all agree that the clones should get the same reaction if an attack has launching properties like Kratos' Ascension, or cause knockback like Valor. But as far as special reactions seen in other games... that's pretty difficult to answer. I'm leaning towards a 'no', myself.

>What is the meaning here? Better than expected?
That was my first thought, yes.

>How often can this be used?
Almost instantly with dodge canceling.

>What are its properties (i.e. does it cause enemies to stagger, knocks them back, etc.)?
In her game it will send flying regular mobs. Bigger stuff won't take hit stun normally but will take heavy damage. They work on a different type of stun though so you can still stop them.

The row of plants is horizontal with insane range that would reach far outside this arena.
The clones have no chance of beating her. I'm pretty sure of this.

Just found this. Looks extremely fun.
Take a while to get into the mechanics but the whole video is worth watching for the history and reference stuff.

> Kiryu
Yakuza games are notoriously difficult once you add modifiers, one of the hardest games to challenge run. I did a NUR+ (NUR and no healing items) in Yakuza Kiwami and barely made it halfway through before being absolutely stonewalled. A regular NUR might be possible if you grind a lot of money for powerful items and being able to spam healing items but in general the game is a nightmare. Most bosses tend to be fully intangiable for long periods of time, or are completely safe. The game is way too bonkers haha

> Ryu guillotine throw
Ryu cannot throw non-humanoid enemies and cannot throw humanoid bosses in his own games, I'd say going by the way they're designed he should be able to throw the Kratos Clones (as Ryu can throw the Ryu Clones in his own games).

Played the Valkyrie Elysium demo.

Did not like it at all. Feels very soulless.

The should have added to the PS2 version's combat. Now it's just a generic ARPG.

Yeah, the Valkyrie Elysium demo was really weird. Gave us einherjar in the tutorial but not the actual level itself, so we didn't get to mess around with one of the main mechanics of the game. Throwing away all of the other games' unique features just makes me wonder why this needed to be a "Valkyrie" title.

I cringed when I saw it has a 'grapple hook'. Used for traversing the environment and zipping to enemies. Like we haven't seen that enough already.

Birdman:
>send regular mobs flying
There's a chance that the clones will be knocked back by it, them. If that attack doesn't give them any breathing room, then yeah, she might easily succeed.

Raeng:
>stonewalled
I'll take your word for it, and it's quite the statement since I know you're a good player. Says a lot about its difficulty, then.

>able to throw the clones owed to their design
I'd think the same thing.

>Ryu Clones
These are a thing?

>Infinity
Maybe a noob question, but do you know if a PC with integrated graphics is able to handle The Evil Within? If so, I may play that game sooner than expected.

Evil Within can be kinda demanding for this, these aren't the best optimized games sadly but you've got nothing to lose.

> Ryu clones
Yeah, they appear exclusively on higher difficulties as minibosses, pretty fun fights :)

> Evil Within
They're still pretty unoptimized games, I wouldn't expect too much on an intergrated Graphics Card but it might work.

>unoptimized
Yeah, I saw someone trying to run this game with an Intel card, and the framerate drops frequently. Oh well.

Hopefully a few titles from Platinum (Vanquish, MGR, Transformers Devastation, etc.) can perform better. Same as XIII LR. Apparently DaS1 is just as demanding as Evil Within, if not moreso.

>fun fights
In which game do they appear in?

Ryu clones appear in NGB and Sigma, in the team missions of Sigma 2 (Tag missions for Vita and NGMC) and also 3 and Razor's Edge.

Should be noted that trailers showed the Ryu Clones as bosses in the campaign in Sigma 2, which still begs the question as to why the hell they were cut.

Yeah, like the others have said, they're not optimized well so I doubt it. But if the performance isn't game-breaking you could try it anyway.

So. I was on my PS3 yesterday for some reason. I went to my folder of downloaded PS2 games. In it, I had God Hand, Contra Shattered Soldier, Maximo, Shinobi, and Gradius V. I played all five games for about 20 minutes each.

It really hit me. The sharp decline in quality and originality in games this last decade or so. And it's not nostalgia, two of these games I didn't even play until very recently, and there are games from my childhood that I don't like anymore, but this was different.

As dramatic as it sounds, that demo for Wo Long really kind of was a breaking point for me. Tried one more time to play it and get to the end and I kept saying to myself "how many times are these developers going to make the same fucking shit, and chase trends?".  

Aside from Bayo3, there is nothing for me to care about anymore. Callisto Protocol seemed right up my alley at first, but then they showed that demo with Last of Us stealth and melee "combat" and I checked out. Every game has to follow along with what the big soulless products are doing now.

Sorry for sounding so dramatic and angsty but it's just fucking sad to me. If it's not a Souls clone, it's open world. If it's not open world, it has shitty RPG elements. If it's not any of these, it has Arkham combat, or is a walking simulator.

Wolong looks great IMO, though I don't have any feeling of fatigue from Souls or Nioh since I've yet to play them. Bayonetta 3 looked awesome, that gameplay trailer vastly exceeded my expectations, just a shame it's only on Switch.

As someone who is just now discovering many 6th gen and even some 5th gen games (started getting into games during late 7th gen era and never played too much anyway), I agree. There really are lots of games that do different things and have their unique and fun gameplay ideas, even within the same genres.

Even when there are experimental games (Wonderful 101 comes to mind, and I'm aware of the minigames), they often get dismissed just for being different or looking weird so that doesn't help either.

On another note, How is Mega Man 11? Would it be a good game to start the series with? I know there are also the Legends (3d gameplay) and X subseries, are they worth playing?

Like I said in the other topic, I'm sure Wo Long will be a good game. It's the lack of variety that's killing me.

>Mega Man 11
Fantastic game, but I don't know if I would start with it. The weapon switching and controls might make it slightly hard to play the older games if you're not used to them. My favorites are 2,3,9,10,11, if that means anything.

Can't comment on the Legends games, but the X series is great too. It's a bit uneven but for the most part the games are solid, I recommend going in order if you decide to tackle those(many people think the first game is the best anyway).

>Sorry for sounding so dramatic and angsty but it's just fucking sad to me.
Do not apologize for stating facts.

> I don't have any feeling of fatigue from Souls or Nioh since I've yet to play them
You'll get there.

I think it's more the AAA or high name market that's suffering, go lower into the depths and there's a ton of great stuff out there. Despite me being critical about it at the start, SIFU has turned into probably the best action-game made in the West bar-non, and that's a very recent title. Triangle Stratagy sounds like a banger too, while we've also got indie creators like our own Magenta spicing things up. Even despite its shortcomings, I've heard that Ghostwire is plenty unique. Let's not forget Death Stranding (super good and unique) and Kingdom Hearts 3 (especially post-DLC).

The days of getting a mass-market release from Capcom, Fromsoft, SantaMonica and Platinum that is unique and inspired is probably (most definitely) done for, with minor exceptions. But there's still a ton of gold out there. Just gotta dig a bit deeper and also be more on the look-out for games that get a 7/10 review from critics.