The Vent Club

My name really is untaggable haha. This tagging system is ass. Do people even get notifications if someone is tagged?

Good to hear you're aligning to NG. Good....very good. Haha! Which one the most? NGB?

Definitely Black, for sure. Mainly due to it being the most consistent of the bunch.

What's the bet this is a troll?
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/202534-knack-2/78630226#2

Seeking data huh?

I dunno, I'd say he seems fairly genuine...

You use GameFAQS though, whereas I don't, so you've probably acquired a talent for picking the trolls out by now!

His recent post does seem genuine.

But then you read questionable comments like post #9.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/928790-final-fantasy-xiii/78513348?jumpto=9#9

I see ANY mention of Knack suspicious regardless of what is said.

You like FFXIII bird?

Anyone watching this last of us 2 leak stuff? Whole game got leaked, the next day they announced the new release. Tons of butthurt people lol

Yeah it sounds awful. Wasn’t going to play it anyway.

I haven't played the first one - it's still sealed on my shelf from when I got it bundled with the PS4. Generally, I just don't get excited about major western releases anymore. I'm tempted to get a month of game pass when Red Dead 2 joins it, but I can't say I'm really looking forward to playing it. Too many games now focus on however the developers want to define "immersion" and tend to lose sight of what's actually fun and/or engaging. Doom Eternal was a very welcome exception though.

>You like FFXIII bird?
Never played. Not even sure what the gameplay is like but I remember people hating it so I'll probably like it.

The reason I was on that board was because as I said, any mention of Knack 2 gets me suspicious. People are usually trashing it elsewhere so I did a quick check of that user's history.

>Tlou
Hideous gender/identity politics trash that should never see the light of day.

I haven't watched any of the leaked footage (if there's any), but the text summary I read sounded relatively interesting. Not sure why the entire internet is flipping out about this.

I could care less about TLOU story, but what I read sounds cooler than anything I would have thought they would do. I guess people don't like seeing their favorite virtual people get killed off.

With a big backlog(that technically doesn't exist) that I have, I really don't think I will ever play TLOU at this point.

The TLOU2 leaks made me go "huh, that's interesting". So I can fully understand that a lot of fans of the original are not going to be happy with it, considering I really didn't care for the original game.

EDIT: reading through the posts here, consider this. Most of us here say "sounds pretty sweet", and we're not the target audience. So yeah.

@Ksubzero1000
Mostly because every story sounds really, really bad out of context. But also because - let's face it - TLOU is a 'normie' game (hate the term, but you get me). It's a title for mass appeal, and here it is trying to be artistic with subverting expectations and some unique twists and turns. People don't want that. They want TLOU, again. Same characters, same adventure, same mechanics (if there are any) and prettier pictures. The other playable character alone shits on all of that, not to mention what happens storywise.

Royta/Raeng wrote:@Ksubzero1000
Mostly because every story sounds really, really bad out of context. But also because - let's face it - TLOU is a 'normie' game (hate the term, but you get me). It's a title for mass appeal, and here it is trying to be artistic with subverting expectations and some unique twists and turns. People don't want that. They want TLOU, again. Same characters, same adventure, same mechanics (if there are any) and prettier pictures. The other playable character alone shits on all of that, not to mention what happens storywise.

Oh yeah, totally. Writing a sequel is hard and simply repackaging the same stuff is more often than not creatively bankrupt, so I'm interested in the direction they're going in on concept alone. People's knee-jerk reaction of "it's different therefore I don't like it" is a bit silly to me, especially given the fragmented information we have for the time being. Then again, I've been known to be really protective of series I love changing too much over time, so I can kinda understand the anxiety!

On the other side of that debate, comments like Birdman's also make me raise an eyebrow or two, tbh.

The studio has had a lot of issues since Amy left/was kicked out in terms of writing I'd say, that said I try to avoid politics and all that especially on this forum, I prefer to keep it about the gameplay. Politics, religion, it's all very personal and based off of culture, upbringing etc. It's fine on a dedicated forum to it, but we're gamers and things can already get heated enough as it is haha, no need to throw that oil on the fire as well.

Regarding "interesting", well that's the point. People like us, we want something new, fresh. We like it, but a good majority of the 100 million people that bought that game didn't. They want something safe, plain. And they are definitely not getting that haha. I think it's also because the gameplay isn't that big of an element. If Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden had great gameplay, I wouldn't give two shits that Ryu was replaced by that weirdo, I'd prefer Ryu, sure, but in the end, just give me good gameplay.

>I prefer to keep it about the gameplay.
If only devs could do the same, then we might get a good TR game.

>Tlou
I actually didn't mind the first game. I don't feel it deserved the praise it got, but it was worth a run. I often heard the hardest difficulty was actually a brutal survival game. Did anyone try it?

>yaiba
I keep forgetting I need to play this.

> hardest setting
It was pretty easy if you played within the confines of the game i.e. don't try to stealth when the game wants combat etc. The bricks are so insanely overpowered you can just smash your way to victory. The game wasn't horrible, but it wasn't really interesting to me either, especially not the next step in gaming evolution that people make it out to be.

I always thought it was the story and characters that were praised most. Was the gameplay considered to be evolutionary? I watched one of the TLOU2 gameplay trailers last night and it looked outrageously scripted. If the game actually turns out to play like that I'll be genuinely impressed, but I won't get my hopes up.

The game is generally really, really scripted. If you don't go off the beaten path it is pretty cool since it is all very well designed and holding your hand, but the second you think "hey, maybe I can stealth kill this guy" in a section where they want you to fight, the game just breaks down completely. Same with the reverse, or you trying to skip a fight, or go through a room you're not supposed to go through yet.

There's a very, very telling moment where you have to kill a sniper. Matthew says it better than me: https://youtu.be/eFhRFWSmFGg?t=1353

> story and characters praised
Everything was praised, even the crafting system.

I might play through it soon, see if I agree with all the praise it got. I really like Matthewmatosis' videos, and find I generally agree with his opinions. The clip of the unmanned (and unanimated) rifle was just stupid. How does a major AAA title striving to immerse players get away with something like that? It's unfortunate that the developers decide to take away the ability to play with intelligence in favor of doing a button mashing QTE. They could have had both methods.

> Crafting system
I'm not usually a fan of these. They end up feeling like busy work to me, but depending on the context of the game it can work well. I suppose it's probably appropriate for a game set during a zombie apocalypse.

Gregorinho wrote:The clip of the unmanned (and unanimated) rifle was just stupid. How does a major AAA title striving to immerse players get away with something like that?

It's because ND's idea of "immersive gameplay" is to funnel the player through a succession of semi-passive, heavily scripted setpieces that are usually meant to be experienced from a pre-determined perspective. In the example of the non-existent sniper, the player is meant to use the ruins as cover in order to slowly walk out of his line of sight and then enter the building through the backdoor afterwards. That's why they didn't bother to have an actual character model behind the gun, because killing him early would break the entire script of that particular scene. They get away with this sort of design aberrations because their approach works amazing well on most casual players' one-and-only playthrough.

They're the gaming devs equivalent of a YouTube magician. Everything all works beautifully when they're in complete control of the experience but crumbles apart as soon as anybody inadvertently peaks past the curtain. And to be fair, there are plenty of players who don't care about mechanical intricacies and actively prefer this type of highly curated cinematic experience. More power to them.

I understand your point, but you're also assuming that all players will play the game in the same way. If you aren't supposed to get up to that room to take the sniper out, where you can see his model doesn't exist - why do they even let you up there? If they put some sort of barrier or invisible wall in place, players would know exactly how they're supposed to be funnelled (regardless of whether that's satisfying or not).

> One-and-only playthrough
This is a good point that often disappoints me. I try and sell the idea of action games to a friend of mine by telling him how repeat playthroughs can be even more enjoyable than the first, but he asks "why is the game not being the best it can be on the first playthrough?". I do see his point, but I feel like it gets to a point where some devs may as well just be making a movie. The unique feature of games over other forms of media is interactivity. A movie will be the same every time you watch it, whereas a game playthrough can be totally different, especially if you're remixing enemies, mechanics and whatever else.

We have "normie games" as Roy put it because people don't want to learn anything. They want a minimal amount of challenge (enough to engage their brain, but not enough to require an improvement of skill), and as a result I assume they aren't too worried about feeling rewarded either. They're happy with games that are photorealistic (or "immersive") and have characters and stories they like. Sounds a lot like a movie to me.

After viewing the clip Roy linked, it seems to me that he developers clearly don't expect (or maybe even want) you to play the game more than once. A lack of replay value isn't inherently a bad thing. I've just started playing the Ace Attorney trilogy, which I assume will have absolutely zero replay value once it's beaten. You know how to solve the puzzles, you know the story twists, nothing changes. I think that's fine though, because you had to challenge your brain to figure out how to beat it the first time. With that TLOU example, the developer's intention was to tell the player exactly what to do. I don't think it's that crazy to assume players might think there might be an offensive way to proceed (as Matthewmatosis did) as well as a defensive way (the intended way). The other example from the same clip demonstrates this further. They let you begin the section in "stealth mode", but it's actually impossible to complete it this way as enemies infinitely respawn until you go loud. What is the point of this? Why waste the player's time? If they're so determined to force you in experiencing the game in a specific way then why offer the illusion of choice? They may as well have made the cutscene to start that section a little longer and have Ellie either accidentally fire her gun or miss a target while she covers Joel, forcing you to be detected.

Gregorinho wrote:If you aren't supposed to get up to that room to take the sniper out, where you can see his model doesn't exist - why do they even let you up there?

Well, you are supposed to fight you way through the back alleys, enter the sniper building, go up the stairs, enter the room and kill the sniper through a close-quarter QTE. That's how the scene ends and everything works as long as you follow that specific script. The potential dissonance happens earlier when you're under fire and looking at "him" through your weapon's scope, because the game doesn't account for that.

you're also assuming that all players will play the game in the same way.

It's not so much that I'm assuming it, it's ND who are assuming it! I'm not defending this, just trying to explain the design ethos behind the scene in question. :)

> Sniper

I mean the room where Matthewmatosis is in his review - he's upstairs in a building that's almost level in altitude with the room where the sniper is. If the developers want the only way of killing the sniper to be to enter the building he's in, go upstairs and fight him hand to hand, then in my opinion they shouldn't allow you to get to a vantage point outside of that building that allows you to see where the sniper should be when they aren't even going to model him. My point was just that they have allowed players to break the "immersion" that they're trying to create and they could have avoided it. I remember back in uni I did my dissertation on immersion in gaming and it was quite an interesting subject to research as it means different things to different people.

> Assuming players will play in the same way

Apologies, that wasn't supposed to come across as an attack on you! Yes, it is the developers who have assumed that the player will play in one specific way, but have permitted the illusion of choice by allowing players to get to a spot where they expect they can shoot the sniper, only to find he doesn't even exist. If anything, being unable to solve a problem in a way your brain knows is possible is immersion breaking and is contrary to the intended "experience".

Gregorinho wrote:I mean the room where Matthewmatosis is in his review

Ah, gotcha.

Gregorinho wrote:being unable to solve a problem in a way your brain knows is possible is immersion breaking and is contrary to the intended "experience".

Completely agree. And that's why I'm really not a fan of ND's signature design philosophy, by and large.

Most of these games are aimed at the first and only playthrough, and like a film you want subsequent reviewings to hold the same quality. If your initial viewing is poor, but the subsequent one is fantastic, that's not what they're going for here. It's why films like Marvel's recent outings will always beat genius films like Enemy in the box-office. The former is easy entertainment, the latter requires more than 3-4 viewings to understand.

These players, for the most part, don't play the game twice in one year. Maybe they'll revisit it the week before the sequel hits or something similar but that's it really. Most of my real friends are big fans of these types of games since they're pretty casual players, and they never play a game more than once. Even when they love it so much and don't want it to end. That's also something that's being 'fed' to them though, as most games don't reward proper replays anymore with variation in gameplay. Their defence is also that the game is exactly the same upon replays, to which I ask "perhaps play another game that isn't that way". Enfin.

> sniper scene & setpieces
This one could've been handled a lot better if they'd just boarded the room up more and you couldn't see inside because it was dark or something. Or that he constantly goes from window to window. Or just put a model there that always ducks when you shoot at it automatically - anything would've been better. The latter option especially as it would give you a way to avoid his shots by providing covering fire.

The downside with setpieces is that if you give too little control while directing the game yourself too much, you lose all about what makes that scene so impactful. We've been in quite a RE4 mode these weeks, and its Cabin Fight is a great example of a set piece done right. You're in the room, and the rest is up to you. You CAN board up the windows, you don't have to. When Luis suggests you to go to the second floor, you can do that, or you can tough it out downstairs. You can use a shotgun, but you can use a Sniper if you want.

Imagine TLOU in that scenario (or RE4make haha). The fight starts, you get the objective to board up the windows. Then through scripted events windows burst open and some zombies have infinite health until something happens because they want you to feel pressured. Then when Luis says "let's go upstairs", this happens in a cutscene where you run upstairs. The cutscene ends with you wielding a molotov and pointing it down the stairs and you press throw.

It's insanely cinematic, and will no doubt sway early adopters that this is a fantastic setpiece. But the second you stray from the script, try to go downstairs etc, the charade crumbles to dust, making it an extremely dull moment on replays. This is also why, imo, the cabin fight in TEW2 is a lot weaker than RE4's, since you have less options.

> invisible walls
Note that the game is chock full of them and the infamous "we're not supposed to go this way" dialogue iirc.

> Youtube Magician
Always reminds me of Sneh's (?) Awakened Alma run in NGB. In that video he knocks AA out of the air with every hit, making a lot of players wonder "how, what's the trick". The trick was just try it until you had a success haha. Crazy.

> solutions
This is always a hard one though as players will always try things you don't expect and this can at times really break your immersion. There's a great example in Spec Ops The Line, one of the few great storybased games imo of recent years. There's a very brutal segment where you're surrounded by villagers and you want them out of your way. You're also very angry at them for something they did.

There's no Paragon or Renegade option. You just stand there with your gun. You can shoot them, or walk past them. Or...you can shoot the sky to make them run away. You know that's something that snuck in after a ton of testing with players, and one player tried that, it didn't work, and they added it. The downside of those scripted sequences is that you can never account for everything players think of though.

> "Easy vs Hard" Entertainment

This is true, but I think it works a bit differently when it's a game. If I had to watch a movie 4 times to fully process the plot, I think I'd probably hate it by the end of the 4th watch. If I played a game 4 times and felt I got a different gameplay experience each time, I'd probably think it was brilliantly designed and great value for money. It's all circumstantial, I guess, but you're right.

> Set pieces (RE4)

Good example. The RE4 scene works well because it's a set piece that you can interact with quite a bit - even though the developers have forced you in to this moment, you have a lot of influence once you're in it. Being stuck in set pieces where you just hold up to run, or just press shoot while your character automatically aims...I just don't find them fun.

> Can't think of everything players might do

True, of course developers can't account for everything, but did they really think players wouldn't think they might be able to kill an enemy in a game where you... kill your enemies? Somebody had to decide "we won't model the sniper there" but didn't think "is there a way the player will be able to tell", it seems.

I distinctly remember at the end level of last of us just running past hordes of soldiers because I could not stand to play the game anymore. I ran into the right room, triggered a cut scene and it's like all of those guys de spawned. Like 15 human soldiers, in this game all about narrative, they just disappeared.
JANK
Also the shooting felt like ass, and they did shooting great with uncharted sooo what happened there.

hedfone wrote:Also the shooting felt like ass, and they did shooting great with uncharted sooo what happened there.

Really? I always thought the gunplay mechanics and general gamefeel of Uncharted were absolute ass. Nothing but shallow hyper-elaborate animations over and over again. TLoU feels very much like an extension of that to me.

The only recent ND game I’ve enjoyed is Uncharted 2. Still really enjoy the first Jak and the second game to an extent.

Their shooting went pretty downhill after UC2, where it was pretty good. But in UC3 they wanted to make it more realistic which a lot of people hated, and they ended up patching the 'old method' in. TLOU still has 'realistic' aiming if that makes any sense.

UC2 really is that one AAA game that hit all the right marks for me. If I had that game growing up I would've had a blast for sure. Lots of fun areas, pretty funny, not too handholdy but still handholdy, fun set pieces even upon replays, just a lot of fun stuff in that game. Really one of the best sequels I've seen that absolutely stomps the previous game in my eyes.

>TLoU
Game was okay. Decent overall, and I generally wasn't bored while playing, but nothing ultra-super-standout to me. This was back before I played Ninja Gaiden, and even Souls. I'm probably not gonna touch it again purely to make sure that my fairly decent memories of the game stay that way. I also don't really think there's enough for me to re-explore gameplay wise.

>Uncharted
Never been big on Uncharted. Always found the series too predictable.

>"""Politics"""
I'm not gonna say anything about that on this forum specifically, because the last thing I want is to argue with you all about politics.

Hahahaha, wise choice. That and they usually aren't discussions, more people screaming their take as right to another and being angry they aren't seeing the light like they do. Rarely had a good political discussion. Did have a ton of good religious ones though, Theology is really interesting.

I think politics are fine to talk about with people you're comfortable with, but even with certain friends I'm careful about religious and political discussion unless I know them very well. It's a slippery slope for a lot of people.

>"why is the game not being the best it can be on the first playthrough?"
Your friend is suffering from a serious case of Mechanical Blindness.

Oh I know haha. We actually met at another friend's wedding, we were talking games and we talked favourites. We couldn't find one we aligned with, but then he said "but Last of Us, has to be the best game you played, right"? And I couldn't hide it man haha. I just couldn't. We almost had a verbal fight, but after that we sort of understood each other.

He really plays for purely the story, he wants to sit on his couch, watch pretty colors explode while he presses a single button and just waste some time. Cool, you do you.

Buying a chocolate bar, throwing away the chocolate, and sniffing the wrapper.

Birdman wrote:Buying a chocolate bar, throwing away the chocolate, and sniffing the wrapper.

I honestly think that's a pretty funny description haha!

>TLOU2 fiasco
It's kind of amazing that they thought going full SJW nonsense wouldn't spark a controversy on a game where it's prequel had a plot that appealed to the straight boomer with paternal insticts. GoW seems to have understood its appeal and doubled down on it.

>He really plays for purely the story
This is often a lie, most people play games with decent presentation and gameplay, the plot is usually a complement that they blow out of proportion and lie to themselves believing they care about it usually just to show off to others how "cultured" they are because casuals don't care about gameplay talk and shilling visuals and presentation usually sounds off like you're a 10 year old amazed by colors(as most people lack the baggage to talk about art and presentation).

Most of the "story gamers" I know and have seen around the interwebz won't touch supplementary materials, lack the knowledge to talk about the ups and downs of the writting of said game, usually talk mostly about superficial aspects of the plot(often never delving deep into it) and the most interesting is that all of them won't touch actual storydriven games like old point n clicks or pseudo visual novels with a 10 foot pole. This is obviously generalization and there are exceptions to it, but most of them are like the above.

Edit: The story card is also widely used as a shield for the game against actual complaints about its gameplay.

> SJW
Guess it was too much to hope for that this forum would be the one spot where people don't argue about video game politics.

>Superficial aspects of story
Most people do this these days, with movies and books as well. I would know, because I'm also guilty of this for certain comics.

>Pseudo visual novels/point and clicks
Got any recommendations? I hear Disco Elysium's good.

>Shield against complaints about gameplay
Tales of Berseria has to be one of the most egregious examples I can think of in this regard.

I agree with Firmament, there is no way that would end well. Can we not? Besides, nobody has even played the game in its entirety yet. Maybe we could wait a bit before writing it off entirely?

Anyway, as far as visual novels go, I think the Ace Attorney series is a lot of fun. I also think that Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors and its sequel Virtue’s Last Reward are remarkable experiences thanks to their mind-melting twists and excellent character work. Although I found the third game in the series (Zero Time Dilemma) to be quite disappointing, unfortunately.

About the last point being raised: I'm a gameplay-first type of person in general but I've certainly tolerated mediocre gameplay in a few games because I found the story to be really engaging. Everybody's gonna draw the line somewhere else and evaluate things differently, and that's okay. I'm more than willing to tolerate a completely garbage story if I find the gameplay to be compelling enough, so I can't really fault anybody for doing the opposite.

>Not write it off
Plenty of things have ideas that look stupid on paper, and with minimal context, but end up being more interesting. E.G God Hand. If I pitched the idea of a tank-controlled action game to someone, and showed a bit of footage, they'd probably be completely baffled.

>Ace Attorney
Wonderful series! T&T is my favourite of the bunch, and one of my favourite games, period. I have yet to play Investigations 2, or Great Ace Attorney, though.

>Zero Escape
Heard a lot of good about these ones. Your take on ZTD is consistent with most others I've seen.

TheFirmament1 wrote:>Not write it off
Plenty of things have ideas that look stupid on paper, and with minimal context, but end up being more interesting. E.G God Hand. If I pitched the idea of a tank-controlled action game to someone, and showed a bit of footage, they'd probably be completely baffled.

Precisely. Besides, almost every story can sound idiotic out of context. Depends on how it's handled, really.

TheFirmament1 wrote:>Ace Attorney
Wonderful series! T&T is my favourite of the bunch, and one of my favourite games, period. I have yet to play Investigations 2, or Great Ace Attorney, though.

Cool! I haven't played Spirit of Justice yet, the first 3DS game left me a bit cold so I wasn't in a rush. My favorite is probably the very first one for that legendary Wright-Edgeworth rivalry, but T&T is a very close second (some of the plot points on the last case stretched my suspension of disbelief a bit too far for my liking, although the rest of the game is really solid). Oh, and that amazing last case in JFA!

TheFirmament1 wrote:>Zero Escape
Heard a lot of good about these ones. Your take on ZTD is consistent with most others I've seen.

If you like high-concept visual novels and can look past some rough edges, my recommendation would be to go in completely blind.

There is a compilation of the very first two games (aka the best ones) called The Nonary Games, which represents insane value for money. Currently discounted on Steam, for example.

If you like those and still want more afterwards, ZTD is definitely worth playing, just don't expect the perfectly satisfying conclusion the others would have deserved.

>where people don't argue about video game politics
There's no arguing, the game's writting is clearly cattering to a specific public despite its predecessor cattering to an opposite group, I'm pointing out the irony and that the controversy is to be expected regardless of how well it turns out, in fact all the spoilers seems like they're going for full shock value whether in a positive or negative way so apparently that's what the devs wanted from the get-go. I don't really care about the series so having an actual opinion on it is way beyond me aside from pointing out a few obvious points.

>Got any recommendations?
Ghost Trick, you probably already heard the other ones like Zero Escape, AA, etc.

It will be another boring cinematic TPS.

As noted, I prefer to keep politics out of this forum as much as possible. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a general statement. I don't feel we're talking politics yet, but considering people were making comments about it, felt I had to make a quick note about it is all.


> TLOU2 switching audiences
The writer change has had a big influence on the game I'd wager. Naughty Dog originally had Amy as their writer, who eventually left under dubious circumstances as mentioned before. It's always hard to get a bead on reasoning because (sadly) politics quickly get brought up to make things even more volatile, but suffice to say that one individual had no qualms stepping on some skulls to further his career.

I am curious why "subverting expectations" has become such a go-to trend, has it ever led to success? Giving people what they want with a little twist is generally enough it seems. For instance Force Awakens being a basic Star Wars film with the twist being who the Jedi was, compared to The Last Jedi that bombed in all directions trying to change the formula. It's why I'm so excited for the new DUNE movie, because it will just be a movie of DUNE.

> story gamers
There's a point you make, and I can see it. If it isn't fun, they won't bother. One thing I do notice is their peer-pressure. Both played FFVII-remake and both didn't like it, but they did put 50~ hours into it because "this is what I'm supposed to play now", which I always found weird.

> line in the sand
Gameplay is the most important to me (should be obvious haha), but a good tale as far as the medium allows is always welcomed. God of War and DMC3 are all the better for having a decent plot. Only game I've really drugged through for the story was Red Dead Redemption, I was super curious to see how it ended but that gameplay really wasn't for me haha.

>who eventually left under dubious circumstances as mentioned before.
>One individual had no qualms stepping on some skulls to further his career.

So it's just Bioware all over again, wish this trend would go away but it seems it's like becoming a common practice within big western devs.

>I am curious why "subverting expectations" has become such a go-to trend
I think there's always a target public for it since everyone goes through the teenager phase, then they all grow older, enter boomer mode like us and would rather settle for something they're familiar with and has more consistence.

>has it ever led to success?
It's seen it's share of success in anime related mediums like OG Evangelion, Madoka Magica, Fire Punch, both Yoko Taro and Suda becoming well known for their weird shenanigans, etc. On the western side, it seems like to be a nonstop trainwreck because for westerners subverting expectations HAS to be tied with politics for some reason. One thing in common with both though, is that no one enjoys having their expectatives subverted on a series they've become familiar with(see: FF7 remake, the Evangelion movies, Danganronpa 3, Lords of Shadow 2, anything Hollywood tries to reboot, etc).

>Giving people what they want with a little twist is generally enough it seems.
They just haven't chewed enough member berries to understand its appeal.

>It's why I'm so excited for the new DUNE movie, because it will just be a movie of DUNE.
Same, not with DUNE in specific but I like just seeing old series coming back and being true to its origins, loved the recent Streets of Rage 4 because it's just such a good throwback to 90's beat em ups, it did some new things but for the most part they tried to keep the game as familiar as possible to people who enjoyed the old series.

>which I always found weird.
Acceptable behavior for streamers earning money, unhealthy for anyone else I'd say. Never understood the appeal of being trendy, never will.

> write off entirely
I think people that are interested, will stay interested, and those that weren't aren't. The rest are just attention seekers driving by for the weekly dosis of drama. Every plot sounds dumb when described in a few sentences. That said, I can understand fans of the original not liking where this new game is going. I mean, I didn't like the plot of the first game at all, and the new plot seems interesting to me, which should say enough

> career progress
There's a Dutch saying of "de een zijn dood is de ander zijn brood", losely translating to 'one man's death, is another man's meal'. Shame that it has to come at the cost of quality.

> expectations
Good point, I remember watching Madoka and absolutely loved it for being so different than what I expected. That said, I wish innovation could stay within boundries at times within a brand as you note. I love progress like how Ninja Gaiden II tried to be different within its established formula, but how God of War flipped the script with the only real tie to the originals being the name, that's always a hard sell for me.

> Subverting Expectations

Game of Thrones got a reputation for this and ended up being a huge success up until it's final season. It was novel (ha!) to begin with, but eventually you get tired of having almost every single character you grow any sort of attachment to being killed off. I don't hate bleak plots by any means, but you have to be careful about how you write one if you aren't going to give your audience a payoff.

I saw Danganronpa 3 was mentioned as a bad example of subverting expectations.I get why the overall plot wasn't well received, but given the direction it went in, I actually really liked the ending they teased in the final moments of the game. I thought it would have been a very brave move, as well as some refreshing social commentary for a change. Instead, we got a fairly predictable ending, which I personally would have enjoyed more had they not dangled a tasty looking carrot in front of me beforehand. I've just finished the first Ace Attorney game (Ep. 5), and I thought they were going to go for a pretty brave ending in the final moments there too, only to write their way out of it. I'd still recommend both games for VN fans.

> Visual Novels

I really enjoyed Virtue's Last Reward, but made the mistake of not playing 999 first as I didn't realise VLR was a sequel when I bought it. As KSub mentioned, the Nonary Games collection contains 999 and VLR and is a good way to about experiencing those games. I really liked the Danganronpa games (even V3) and as I said above I've just finished the first Ace Attorney game, which I enjoyed, so I'd recommend those series too. I've heard 428 Shibuya Scramble is very good, and I think there was a VN style game that Suda made way back - I want to say it's called The Silver Case or something like that. It got localised a few years ago If you like his storytelling then that's probably a good one to go for.

>Subverting expectations
The reason why it doesn't work is that a lot of writers become too obsessed with trying to be clever, and pull the rug underneath you vs. making sense.

>Danganronpa 3
You mean V3? The anime was terrible, but I also agree that V3 was good. As usual for Danganronpa though, the ending tended to drag itself out a bit longer than it needed to. Which DR game was your favourite? I lean towards 2, or V3.

>Ace Attorney
3rd game is best in the series.