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Random Razor's Edge thread

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1Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:05 am

Dark_Blood_NG


C-Rank
Yeah, random talk about the game. As I said in another thread: if no one is interested, it'll be for posterity :D

My personal opinion about Razor's Edge: in short, a great game but not a "Ninja Gaiden game". More elaborated: I love RE, it's fast, frantic, challenging, a lot of fun. Though, it feels very different from all the past NG games. Someone could argue: "even NGII was very different from NGI". Yes, but it's not what I mean. NGI, NGB, NGII, NGS2 all share one aspect in common: they require the player to be accurate and economical. The player has to pull off very accurate inputs, and kill the enemies with the least number of inputs possible. So the pleasure in NG games comes from the feeling that you can't mash buttons, the game punishes you for mashing.

While in RE, even if you still have to know what you are doing because the game is hard, in order to kill enemies you will be required to mash long attack strings as fast as possible. This is what makes the game interesting, because while you are attacking one enemy, the other ones can come at you and you will have to make choices on how to defend, otherwhise you'll take a good amount of damage. Though, it doesn't have that old NG feeling of playing speedy and accurate.

So, I really like RE as a modern, fast paced beat em up, but I don't really consider it a "proper" Ninja Gaiden game. Though, this thing doesn't bother me at all. Itagaki, which is the father of the NG concept, has said that he's not interested anymore in the genere, he probably has no more ideas for this type of game, and I don't think Koei Tecom has intention to produce a game like that, so I don't think we'll ever see something in the vein of NGI/II with the same concept. If any new NG game will come out, will be about fast paced action. I'm not complaining.

What I really like about RE, also, is the way healing, ninpo, UT's, launchers and GT's work. They realized all these mechanics made the game kinda trivial, so they balanced everything. Actually I find the game very challenging: while I still have the intention of making videos about NGS2 in the future, I don't think it'll be as easy in RE. The game takes skills, I still don't have them.

It's fun when I don't play this game for a long time, then I watch some videos from good players, and it looks like they are just mashing buttons and stuff dies. Then I turn on the PS3, give it a shot, and I die at the first wave of armored enemies LOL.

2Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:53 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
NG3:RE is, to me, the perfect sequel in terms of gameplay style. NG1 was defensive, NG2 was offensive, this one is a mixture.

I think what makes it feel so different is, as you note, the longer (and more variant-based) strings and new emphasis on hold-combos. NG2 was basically a sped up NG1-Ryu with a few new moves, this is a totally new character with only a few hold-overs.

What lessens the fun to me is that a lot of it doesn't work, and more feels like a quick hotfix (which it was). GT has no real way of connecting unless you're lucky, enemies can randomly enter matrix-dodge mode, inputs drop, Ryu is sluggish at times, overemphasis on Steel on Bone etc. etc. Pair that with extremely boring enemy designs, boring levels (except the first one which is cool) and mostly annoying enemies and it just becomes a chore to fight. Add the country-mile long waves of enemies and you notice why NG1 and NG2 had platforming and exploration, to break up the repetitiveness.

In terms of feeling what I missed most was the feeling of being a Ninja. In NG1 you were a ninja, pure and simple. You were agile, jumped all over the place and your speed was a clear advantage over your foes. In NG2 this was eased a bit but Ryu still felt superior. In NG3 he feels like the weakest soldier of the block. Regular grunts dodge his blows like they are nothing and almost seem to toy with him. Your agility is also less used, with wall attacks and dashes being pretty much useless.

I did like the way healing was handled. Though the other fixes feel more like a barrier-nerf. What I mean by that is, until now the best strategy was to spam OLUTs, now it is UT from a distance or SoB spam. For a game so vested in combat it really is afraid to let you use it or encourage you to do so.

One thing that is worthy of mentioning too is the original game and its DLC. I don't know if you ever played it but it was horrible, truly horrible. It was by far the hardest Ninja Gaiden game ever made (if played without DLC on Master Ninja). What a nightmare. Them adding Van Gelfs in the DLC but not having OTs be in the game or UTs made them so insanely tanky that some bosses had less HP.

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3Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:49 pm

Dark_Blood_NG


C-Rank
I agree on most things, and I that's why I think a lot of NG fans don't like RE. I see RE like a 3d beat em up, not like a ninja game. I like games in which you fight ordes of enemies without much interruptions, I don't particularly like adventure and platforming sections in action games. I also like that enemies start auto dodging sometimes, because I have to change strats a little bit. So I personally like RE a lot, but it's all down to personal preference. I think KT/TN should expect mixed reaction when they mess around with the core gameplay of a game such as Ninja Gaiden. You can't expect people to like a completely different game, when the originals were made with the specific purpose of making people used to do very specific things in order to win.

So RE feels more streamlined to action games/beat em ups. I would be happy with a new NG game playing like RE, but if KT want to sell a new NG game to people, they better go back to the root and do it with style. And let's hope the game will not have any rpg mechanic thrown in at random. Also let's hope NG4 will come out at all.

4Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:27 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
This is going to sound very negative, but hear me out.

Ninja Gaiden is dead. Team Ninja has found its new direction in Nioh and it will probably do that for the future. Expect William to be the Ryu of this new team, and I wouldn't be surprised if he appeared in Dead or Alive 6 in some shape or form.

What I do like about Gaiden, and I feel they should keep that if they ever bring it back, is its Batman element. What I mean by that is: its change. Batman is moldable. He's been everything. Space adventurer, nazi fighter, alien buster, detective, super hero, super man, Iron Man - he's done it all over the last 75 years. Yet there's still a singular CORE to him as a persona, everyone has the same concept about Batman, it is just the outer edges that vary person to person. The same is true to Ninja Gaiden. Each iteration has been, on the edges, totally different. NG04, NGB, NGS, NGS+, NG2, NGS2, NGS2+, NG3, NG3RE...they all play differently in terms of gameplay style. Yet some core elements always remain the same. So if NG4 ever happens, let there be another change, let them try more new things. See what happens!

(Just..no RPG things please. Leave that to Nioh).

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5Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri May 03, 2019 2:07 pm

hedfone

hedfone
C-Rank
Razor's Edge just became backwards compatible on the ONE. The only interesting thing to me about this here is we are a month from E3, maybe TeamNinja has something planned? I wouldn't want a 4 honestly, but would love Ninja Gaiden 2 Black on pc/switch, a man can dream.

6Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri May 03, 2019 3:39 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I'm taken aback by it too. I really feel something might be coming up, I doubt it since I don't want to get my hopes up. But...it is fishy.

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7Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri May 03, 2019 4:52 pm

Nadster


B-Rank
Huh. I expected a General Discussion thread.

8Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri May 03, 2019 8:25 pm

hedfone

hedfone
C-Rank
RE doesn't deserve it Wink

9Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun May 05, 2019 11:50 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Bought the game, had some cash lying around and thought "fuck it". The game really got a frame-rate upgrade and no longer has dropped inputs, which is a godsend. Title still isn't 'as great' as NGII or even NGB. Boring enemies, despicable music, ToVs that take forever, copy paste enemies. It still feels like a fan-game. Albeit on built on good fundamentals, with amazing combat, but just feels that something is missing.

I am curious if something coming. We'll have to wait and see.

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10Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon May 13, 2019 11:51 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Seriously don't understand why I like playing this game so much, there's just something weird about it. The fights last forever, most enemies aren't fun, 360Y is almost needed in some cases to kill the tedium...and yet...I keep going back to it.

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11Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon May 13, 2019 5:41 pm

Nadster


B-Rank
Well there are other factors into enjoying a game. I have to play this again.

12Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:59 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
Can we talk about how terrible the 2nd Regent of the Mask boss fight is? Seriously, he constantly uses these bullshit grab attacks that are inescapable, and his charge attack can actually curve to hit you. And he has this stupid auto-block that isn't telegraphed in the slightest, in which he recovers instantly after a guard break

Not to mention that there's some SERIOUS input lag, and Ryu's targeting system barely works.

13Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:08 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
The second one can be an extreme chore if you don't want to 360Y spam him to death, in which case the fight is over in seconds (fastest I've seen is 6 seconds iirc). The Shuriken trick still works as I recall, but is very tedious, same with the claw setup.

Shuriken trick

You do a flying-swallow, which he blocks, then a shuriken while in the air, which he reflects and then you do a heavy attack from the air. He'll still be in his reflecting animation and thus cannot do anything.

Claw
Run away from him and do the YYS, does decent damage and 100% safe as I recall.

But yeah, he's not a fight that you can do straight up since he's only punishable after one move, all other moves are either safe or a toss up wheither he'll OHKO you for your hubris.

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14Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:33 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
I really wish more bosses were like Genshin, Zedonius, or this iteration of Doku. Yeah, admittedly, the idea behind them is basic, but when they've got the right balance of aggression, defense, and power like Doku (My personal favourite) where they're not blocking 90% of your attacks, it can result in some awesome fights.

15Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:20 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I really like Lovelace the most for some reason, just a fun fight, great offense, doesn't force you to sit still and wait constantly, doesn't block half your attacks leading to cheap tactics. On the flipside, this does mean she basically melts when confronted by 360Y spam.

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16Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:42 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Royta/Raeng wrote:I really like Lovelace the most for some reason, just a fun fight, great offense, doesn't force you to sit still and wait constantly, doesn't block half your attacks leading to cheap tactics. On the flipside, this does mean she basically melts when confronted by 360Y spam.

I had a super fun time fighting Lovelace! And when I fought her on hard mode yesterday, I realized how much better I had gotten at the game. Beat her on my first attempt (lol), whereas a few months ago on normal mode, I kept getting stomped by her.

17Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:44 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
She's a really fun fight, even in vanilla NG3 where a lot of people were having fun fighting her. There used to be a trial with two at once as I recall that was extremely brutal but very enjoyable.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

18Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:02 pm

Phorus1987

Phorus1987
D-Rank
@Dark_Blood_NG wrote:Yeah, random talk about the game. As I said in another thread: if no one is interested, it'll be for posterity :D

My personal opinion about Razor's Edge: in short, a great game but not a "Ninja Gaiden game". More elaborated: I love RE, it's fast, frantic, challenging, a lot of fun. Though, it feels very different from all the past NG games. Someone could argue: "even NGII was very different from NGI". Yes, but it's not what I mean. NGI, NGB, NGII, NGS2 all share one aspect in common: they require the player to be accurate and economical. The player has to pull off very accurate inputs, and kill the enemies with the least number of inputs possible. So the pleasure in NG games comes from the feeling that you can't mash buttons, the game punishes you for mashing.

While in RE, even if you still have to know what you are doing because the game is hard, in order to kill enemies you will be required to mash long attack strings as fast as possible. This is what makes the game interesting, because while you are attacking one enemy, the other ones can come at you and you will have to make choices on how to defend, otherwhise you'll take a good amount of damage. Though, it doesn't have that old NG feeling of playing speedy and accurate.

So, I really like RE as a modern, fast paced beat em up, but I don't really consider it a "proper" Ninja Gaiden game. Though, this thing doesn't bother me at all. Itagaki, which is the father of the NG concept, has said that he's not interested anymore in the genere, he probably has no more ideas for this type of game, and I don't think Koei Tecom has intention to produce a game like that, so I don't think we'll ever see something in the vein of NGI/II with the same concept. If any new NG game will come out, will be about fast paced action. I'm not complaining.

What I really like about RE, also, is the way healing, ninpo, UT's, launchers and GT's work. They realized all these mechanics made the game kinda trivial, so they balanced everything. Actually I find the game very challenging: while I still have the intention of making videos about NGS2 in the future, I don't think it'll be as easy in RE. The game takes skills, I still don't have them.

It's fun when I don't play this game for a long time, then I watch some videos from good players, and it looks like they are just mashing buttons and stuff dies. Then I turn on the PS3, give it a shot, and I die at the first wave of armored enemies LOL.




Thought I would give my two cents on some of the points mentioned here.

Point 1 - My personal opinion about Razor's Edge: in short, a great game but not a "Ninja Gaiden game". More elaborated: I love RE, it's fast, frantic, challenging, a lot of fun.

The vast majority of the Ninja Gaiden community regardless of their skill level were very underwhelmed by Razor's Edge, myself included. If I recall correctly RE was released in 2013 on the 360 and PlayStation 3 which was a port of the Wii U version.

Given the response by critics and gamers alike, I wouldn't say RE was a great game far from it with or without NG in the title. Personally, the game is only 'fun' on lower difficulties because you're forced to play a specific way in order to overcome the higher difficulties using arguably the most broken, overpowered weapon in the modern NG franchise the Eclipse Scythe.

Point 2 - Though, it feels very different from all the past NG games. Someone could argue: "even NGII was very different from NGI". Yes, but it's not what I mean. NGI, NGB, NGII, NGS2 all share one aspect in common: they require the player to be accurate and economical.

The core aspects of what makes a Ninja Gaiden game was removed from NG3 and RE and that is essence which is the lifeblood of the modern series. I agree that you need to be methodical in your approach in previous titles although there is some merit to this holding up in RE to an extent.

Point 3 - The player has to pull off very accurate inputs, and kill the enemies with the least number of inputs possible. So the pleasure in NG games comes from the feeling that you can't mash buttons, the game punishes you for mashing.

While in RE, even if you still have to know what you are doing because the game is hard, in order to kill enemies you will be required to mash long attack strings as fast as possible.

The notion of mashing in NG as a whole to overcome the challenge in front of you is ridiculous, NG and mashing don't go in the same sentence. If you mash on NG1 or NG2 or its counterparts you'll get destroyed on harder difficulties although there are very specific circumstances where mashing is beneficial for instance during the Vigoorian Flails UT animation.

Point 4 -  If any new NG game will come out, will be about fast paced action. I'm not complaining.

I'm a strong advocate that we won't see another NG game in quite some time for several reasons. Nioh is Team Ninjas new lovechild which was critically acclaimed and thus the sequel is currently in development. Secondly, NG3 and NG3 RE were so poorly received a company like TN will not invest in a series that is dead when they can put their energy into their new IP which will be profitable from a business standpoint.

Point 5 - What I really like about RE, also, is the way healing, ninpo, UT's, launchers and GT's work. They realized all these mechanics made the game kinda trivial, so they balanced everything. Actually I find the game very challenging: while I still have the intention of making videos about NGS2 in the future, I don't think it'll be as easy in RE. The game takes skills, I still don't have them.

After reading this statement I have to be honest I was a little confused. I strongly disagree with the point you raised regarding healing, ninpo, UT's and GT's making the game trivial so they balanced everything.

I don't know if you're referring to NG3 RE or other titles regardless there is nothing unbalanced about Ninpo, UT's or GT's. Ninpo is essentially a lifeline so if you make a mistake you can ninpo cancel out of an attack to prevent you from taking damage.

Not too mention that ninpo is not overpowered or unbalanced in any shape or form, it does low damage and is primarily used to get you out of a tight spot or to give you a few seconds of breathing room so you can formulate your next move.

However, in NG3 and RE this was changed for the ninpo gage. There is nothing balanced about NG3 RE, UT's in previous titles was a core game mechanic especially with regards to UT chaining. This is a powerful tool for sure in say NG2/S2 even a raw charge required you to be in a stationary position in order to charge which left you a sitting duck unless you played tactically.

Weapons in NG3 RE are completely unbalanced at least in previous installments every weapon and character was viable. In RE you have to adopt what I would refer to as a first-tier strategy which means minimal effort for maximum reward.

For instance Eclipse Scythe 360T dash 360T bs which is mandatory in order to pass UN story mode. This takes little to no skill and the payoff for learning this 1 thing will get you platinum, you don't need to learn anything! That doesn't fly in previous titles.

You have to know what your doing or the game will destroy you for it. Admittedly there are first-tier strategies in NGS2 and previous titles that are extremely effective.

I remember playing NG3 and its fix-it game NG3 RE and your right it doesn't feel like an NG game but it is. If you turned the clock back a few years NG3 RE is exactly the same as it is today, dead.

There is no denying the fact that RE is not a great game, heck come to mention it very few professional NG players liked RE. So you know when your game is bad when the people who have dedicated years of their life to play NG games think your newest entry is a pile of shit.

You have to bear in mind NG is a niche market to begin with if the most hardcore players despise it TN have serious problems. NG3 RE doesn't have the same depth as its predecessors which is another reason why the community didn't last long. Plus NG3 and NG3 RE are buggy as hell and don't give the player the same satisfaction when they achieve something remarkable in the game or their personal goals.

I look forward to seeing your NGS2 content in the future, I will have to keep my eye open for that. For as much hate as NGS2 sometimes receives not from here but in general the fact that people are still playing this game and learning new tech is a testament to the game, I cannot recall any other PS3 title that is older than NGS2 that still has its servers open and NGS2 is nearly a decade old, man how time flies!

Sorry for the long post!

19Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:42 pm

Birdman


Moderator
Woah

20Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:36 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
No worries, always good to read a good long post.

> cheese is needed
Like NGII, you can cheese it heavily if you want i.e. through the Scythe as you noted, but it is possible to play the game consistently at a high level on Ultimate Ninja. It just takes insane amounts of skill, dedication and learning of the game. Something I think you can respect. A lot of rules and design elements aren't explained at all, making this harder. ShowR, probably world's best player overall in Ninja Gaiden, really showed the world what you can do with it I feel. I'm far from at his skill level, but I can see what he was going for. The two biggest game-changers are Hold Moves into OTs and SoBs, and Cicaeda Surge, which really set the game on its head.

> underwhelmed by Razor's Edge
True, though it has mellowed over time. There were few veterans who early on noted that it might be the one with the best combat system in the series, and people dared not oppose them due to their skill at NGB and NGII. But nobody agreed with them. I feel that right now people are slowly warming up to it and are seeing that, at its best of moments, Razor's Edge is the best NG title around in terms of combat. But it just has so many lowpoints that take away from this i.e. horrible level design, boring enemies, lack of platforming in combat, nerfed counter etc.

> mashing
You're confusing it with NG3, which had mashing. The mashing isn't present in NG3:RE, where it is replaced by the new SoB system which is a great addition to the series if I have to be honest. Combo Chains are more complex now thanks to Hold inputs being added to the mix, as well as more difficult inputs being added. Especially the Kusarigama got this.
What they did change was that moves further in the combo-chain have a higher delimb chance now, making seperate moves less useful like the Claw's >Y in NGII. Now you're more using XXXYYY for example.

> future
Agreed, I doubt we'll see a new one. Also because most of the creators of NG are gone now, and those that still work there love Nioh. I think Nioh is the future for them.

> ninpo
Most Ninpos were way too powerful in previous iterations, especially considering how easy it was to replenish. Inazuma made bosses with adds trival in NG1, Inferno did good damage to bosses while also serving as a cancel and Flame Wheels was great for punishes. In NGII Inferno was the highest DPS against single target enemies without fire-resist, while Void was just one big OHKO move with good boss damage. A fully upgraded Wind Blades would OHKO everything on screen in NGII on Master Ninja that had limbs. There's a reason world's only No Damage Run of NGII abuses Ninpo so much, it is just really good.

In NG3:RE it is more a toss up. They are still really powerful, but there's other options now. It turns it more into a game of meter management. Do you aim for the big meter and burn it all, like with True Inferno, to clear a whole screen of enemies right away (also great for Karma)? Do you save some for eagle-eye headshots? Cicada Surges? Lots of little mechanics at play.

Both systems are good, but honestly I really enjoyed NG3:RE's setup.

> not every weapon is viable in NG3:RE
What do you base this on? Because there have been single-weapon runs done of the game on Ultimate Ninja (myself still working on a few of them).

> 360Y spam is required

As noted above, single weapon runs have been done. Even a level 1 dragon sword run was done iirc. Saying that 360Y spam is required in Razor's Edge is, to me, akin to saying you need wall-attacks and essence-chained UTs in NGB or NGII is unbeatable without the Tonfa UT. Sure, they are great moves, but far from needed.

> NG3RE didn't have depth
It is has it in spades, as noted most veterans hold it in higher regard than the original two. Myself included. Though I prefer NGII, NG3:RE at the end of the day has the best combat in my book. It really is just that good. It hit it off quite well in the Japanese market and with Chinese players, but it flopped in the west due to bad memories of NG3's original form (understandable) and original WiiU exclusivity. Launching nearly back to back with DmC and MGR:R when it was ported over also didn't help at all.

> NGS2
I still love it, but personally prefer NGII's insanity. NG3RE is still being played too, servers active and all, especially now that it's back on Xbox One X.

Sorry if the post was a tad hostile, that's not my intent. But I am a bit amazed by how you lumped NG3:RE to the side without giving it a fair shot. A lot of your comments about it really make me feel you didn't give it its due, instead just beating it with 360Y spam and not bothering to learn its details like you did with NGS2. A shame, since the game really has a lot to offer. More, even, than NGII or NGS2 in my book.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

21Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:09 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Royta/Raeng wrote:No worries, always good to read a good long post.

> underwhelmed by Razor's Edge
True, though it has mellowed over time. There were few veterans who early on noted that it might be the one with the best combat system in the series, and people dared not oppose them due to their skill at NGB and NGII. But nobody agreed with them. I feel that right now people are slowly warming up to it and are seeing that, at its best of moments, Razor's Edge is the best NG title around in terms of combat. But it just has so many lowpoints that take away from this i.e. horrible level design, boring enemies, lack of platforming in combat, nerfed counter etc.
What do you think were the worst enemies in that game? Me personally, I thought the gorilla-looking dudes were a complete damper on fun. And when it came to movesets, the grabs with overlong animations that you couldn't escape were awful.

22Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:49 pm

Hicho9

Hicho9
D-Rank
@Royta/Raeng wrote:

> NG3RE didn't have depth
It is has it in spades, as noted most veterans hold it in higher regard than the original two. Myself included. Though I prefer NGII, NG3:RE at the end of the day has the best combat in my book. It really is just that good. It hit it off quite well in the Japanese market and with Chinese players, but it flopped in the west due to bad memories of NG3's original form (understandable) and original WiiU exclusivity. Launching nearly back to back with DmC and MGR:R when it was ported over also didn't help at all.

> NGS2
I still love it, but personally prefer NGII's insanity. NG3RE is still being played too, servers active and all, especially now that it's back on Xbox One X.

Sorry if the post was a tad hostile, that's not my intent. But I am a bit amazed by how you lumped NG3:RE to the side without giving it a fair shot. A lot of your comments about it really make me feel you didn't give it its due, instead just beating it with 360Y spam and not bothering to learn its details like you did with NGS2. A shame, since the game really has a lot to offer. More, even, than NGII or NGS2 in my book.

First time posting on this great forum! Been a long-time NG player and have lurked here for a while (more active on Reddit these days, and GameFaqs and NGRealm back in the day). Basically, I just search out where people are actively discussing my favorite games of all time as I love talking NG!

I just had to echo much of what Royta says above. I decided to recently get the X1X to have the NG trilogy bc. NG2 (my favorite) just looks and plays gorgeous now. But, replaying the games now on X1X has also renewed my love of NG3RE. Honestly, it might be the most under-appreciated action game in recent memory in terms of how much hate it gets (due to legacy bad-feelings and structural flaws of NG3) versus how great the combat system actually is. I liked it before, but playing it again now on the X1X I am just stunned at how wonderful NG3RE is to play. And I think you will fine attitudes within the hardcore NG community/vets have largely changed like Royta said---the combat is now widely praised in places like NGRealm and elsewhere among long-time players. The flaws are still there of course in NG3RE in other aspects of the game (level design and enemy encounter design mainly), but playing it now these negatives are FAR out-weighed by just how great the combat is. Even coming back to play NG2 again (still my favorite overall), I am reminded just how many flaws it had too to be totally honest.

What NG3RE does in it's best moments is bring together some of the intensity and offensive capabilities (even more so) of NG2 with some of the more strategic defensive play of NG1, along with giving the player even more options than ever before (incredible movesets/combos, counters, ninpo, Cicada Surge, Steel on Bone, etc.). It hits a sweet spot where it has the most potential for true free-flowing, free-form combat---the depth is incredible in all the different things and combinations of those elements you can do.

NG2 is still unrivaled in terms of purity and intensity of the experience. It is at times a chaotic mess, but it is crystal clear in the artistic vision of the combat feeling/experience it wants to put the player in---namely, pure intense, visceral insanity where you need to find a way to survive). That will always make NG2 my overall favorite I think. But, I get the most enjoyment and fun out of NG3RE's combat. It is really remarkable.

One differing opinion---on the future, I think we are definitely getting a new Ninja Gaiden someday. Yes, Nioh is the focus for now, but there is no way Team Ninja and Koei Tecmo will let an IP as important as NG slip away for much longer. Plus, much of the team behind Razor's Edge would still likely be there. Fumihiko Yasuda for example (level designer in NG2, then director of NG3RE and most recently of Nioh). I think the future is bright for NG if we have the crew responsible for NG3RE and Nioh behind it.

23Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:35 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Hicho9 wrote:
@Royta/Raeng wrote:

> NG3RE didn't have depth
It is has it in spades, as noted most veterans hold it in higher regard than the original two. Myself included. Though I prefer NGII, NG3:RE at the end of the day has the best combat in my book. It really is just that good. It hit it off quite well in the Japanese market and with Chinese players, but it flopped in the west due to bad memories of NG3's original form (understandable) and original WiiU exclusivity. Launching nearly back to back with DmC and MGR:R when it was ported over also didn't help at all.

> NGS2
I still love it, but personally prefer NGII's insanity. NG3RE is still being played too, servers active and all, especially now that it's back on Xbox One X.

Sorry if the post was a tad hostile, that's not my intent. But I am a bit amazed by how you lumped NG3:RE to the side without giving it a fair shot. A lot of your comments about it really make me feel you didn't give it its due, instead just beating it with 360Y spam and not bothering to learn its details like you did with NGS2. A shame, since the game really has a lot to offer. More, even, than NGII or NGS2 in my book.

First time posting on this great forum!  Been a long-time NG player and have lurked here for a while (more active on Reddit these days, and GameFaqs and NGRealm back in the day).  Basically, I just search out where people are actively discussing my favorite games of all time as I love talking NG!

I just had to echo much of what Royta says above.  I decided to recently get the X1X to have the NG trilogy bc.  NG2 (my favorite) just looks and plays gorgeous now.  But, replaying the games now on X1X has also renewed my love of NG3RE.  Honestly, it might be the most under-appreciated action game in recent memory in terms of how much hate it gets (due to legacy bad-feelings and structural flaws of NG3) versus how great the combat system actually is.  I liked it before, but playing it again now on the X1X I am just stunned at how wonderful NG3RE is to play.  And I think you will fine attitudes within the hardcore NG community/vets have largely changed like Royta said---the combat is now widely praised in places like NGRealm and elsewhere among long-time players.  The flaws are still there of course in NG3RE in other aspects of the game (level design and enemy encounter design mainly), but playing it now these negatives are FAR out-weighed by just how great the combat is.  Even coming back to play NG2 again (still my favorite overall), I am reminded just how many flaws it had too to be totally honest.

What NG3RE does in it's best moments is bring together some of the intensity and offensive capabilities (even more so) of NG2 with some of the more strategic defensive play of NG1, along with giving the player even more options than ever before (incredible movesets/combos, counters, ninpo, Cicada Surge, Steel on Bone, etc.).  It hits a sweet spot where it has the most potential for true free-flowing, free-form combat---the depth is incredible in all the different things and combinations of those elements you can do.

NG2 is still unrivaled in terms of purity and intensity of the experience.  It is at times a chaotic mess, but it is crystal clear in the artistic vision of the combat feeling/experience it wants to put the player in---namely, pure intense, visceral insanity where you need to find a way to survive).  That will always make NG2 my overall favorite I think.  But, I get the most enjoyment and fun out of NG3RE's combat.  It is really remarkable.

One differing opinion---on the future, I think we are definitely getting a new Ninja Gaiden someday.  Yes, Nioh is the focus for now, but there is no way Team Ninja and Koei Tecmo will let an IP as important as NG slip away for much longer.  Plus, much of the team behind Razor's Edge would still likely be there.  Fumihiko Yasuda for example (level designer in NG2, then director of NG3RE and most recently of Nioh).  I think the future is bright for NG if we have the crew responsible for NG3RE and Nioh behind it.

Yeah. Ninja Gaiden 3 Razor's Edge, when it actually works, A.K.A not chapter 6 (One of the worst levels in the entire series), is a 10/10 action game. It really works best when you're fighting against enemies your size that aren't the white-coat alchemists. But during the BAD times, it becomes a clusterfuck of epic proportions that leaves your mouth hoarse with incoherent swearing, and your thumb aching from Wanker's cramp.

Also, the redesigned Doku is far and away my favourite fight in the series.

24Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:41 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
@TheFirmament1

I mostly dislike the Celsus Fiends (claw dudes) due to their insane ability to dodge your attacks as well as not really going for red-grabs as often. They don't feel like they're playing by the rules of the game. While I respect their speed, I tend to just find them extremely annoying.

Megaselion's (monkeys) are really annoying too, mostly due to their ability to constantly block things or randomly mid attack counter you. Not to mention that when delimbed they charge an (on Ultimate Ninja) OHKO move that you can stop by OT'ing...but sometimes the OT becomes a regular hit and you die. Fact that sometimes and SoB doesn't trigger with them also annoys me.

Magna Fiends are..meh. They tend to play a really one-way game, not a fan but also not a huge hater of them. Also feel that the IS Ninjas are a bit too block and dodge happy, making them surprisingly beefy.

@Hicho9

First off, welcome Hicho! If you want, feel free to introduce yourself in the New Members Topic :) Welcome! And yes, the community has indeed changed its opinion about it. I honestly disliked the game very much originally, also echoing some of the comments read here like "you can only 360Y scythe to win the game", but ended up finding a lot more to love these days.

NGII has flaws too, many even, though the X1X version really irons those out I feel. But like NG3:RE has Day 6, NGII has Chapter 9. I still prefer NGII also for the reasons you listed, mostly the insanity but also just the sheer difficulty that I feel is missing in other titles by comparison. NGB, NGS, NGS2, NG3RE - they are all hard but eventually you can get good enough to negate the game. NGII will always be hard no matter how good you get.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

25Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:53 pm

Hicho9

Hicho9
D-Rank
Thanks Royta!

By the way, are you still working on an article about NG3RE?  

It has be one of the more fascinating development stories out there---speculating what happened within Team Ninja with Ninja Gaiden 3's development and evolution, leading them to make Razor's Edge.  It is incredible when you think about--- NG3 came out in March 2012, and then literally in the same year they released Razor's Edge in November 2012.  This means they must have been working on Razor's Edge and overhauling NG3 at the actual time of vanilla NG3's release!  My guess/suspicion is that there were likely warring factions/differing opinions within Team Ninja itself at the time, and/or between Team Ninja and Koei Tecmo on the direction the game should take....

Not sure if people have seen this recent excellent video interviewing prominent Japanese game developers (including Fumihiko Yasuda from Team Ninja), but it adds some great context to the time period when NG3 released and how Japanese game developers were really struggling across the board with their identity back then:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j6ZHkg5BtE



Last edited by Hicho9 on Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total

26Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:05 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Royta/Raeng

NG3RE has many prime examples when it comes to giving your enemies too much defensive capability.

27Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:45 pm

Hicho9

Hicho9
D-Rank
Had some fun going down memory lane today and read through some posts from the NG3RE GameFaqs forum for WiiU when the game was first coming out. Speculation that it would suck as bad as NG3, reactions when it was finally released, etc..

In doing so, came across these old articles with some nice comments from Team Ninja on RE's release:
https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/preview-ninja-gaiden-3-wii-u-article-1.1101920
https://www.siliconera.com/2012/09/19/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge-cuts-steel-on-bone-qtes-goes-back-to-series-roots/

Still encouraging to read TN's comments here even now....

I am kind of interested in hunting down more TN interviews about Razor's Edge as I am just so intrigued by it's development.

@Royta/Raeng find some good ones in your research?

28Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:03 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
Anyone know the best combo strings for each weapon? I primarily use the Dragon Sword, and use the usual stuff, like:
XYXXXY
XYXXX>Y
XXXYYY
XXYYY
XX>XXX
XX>YYY
XXXXYXXXY

That gets a bit old quickly. I'd like it if someone told me some other useful attacks on the Dragon Sword, and on the other weapons.

29Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:07 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I haven't started my hunt on research yet, I tend to do that last when all my personal notes are compiled. The next article is probably going to be Dante's Inferno and after that I'll dive into the NG3 article while also preparing to turn the NG2+NG2MM+NGS2 articles into video form like I did with NG1.

Do you think you can give me a copypaste via PM of that NYdaily article @Hicho9 ? I cannot access it since I'm in the EU. I really want to focus on how this was the 'b-team' s first full solo title, and the influences, goals, how that came to be, the market shift. There's a lot of things I feel that led to NG3 being the way that it was. Curious to learn more.


@TheFirmament1

Not really, unlike previous games I don't feel there are specific moves that really stick out or are especially usefull compared to others mostly thanks to delimbs being different here. One move that is really good though I feel is YYY of the Scythe, good i.frames and high delimb on the final hit. Other than that I just try to 'go with the flow' in NG3, haven't really dived into the moveset yet to the point of mastery like in NGII.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

30Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Mister Master Ninja on Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:45 pm

Zenyn

Zenyn
D-Rank
Rambunctious louts! How dare you speak in such a fashionable appraising manner about this entity. Now I am reminded about my open Master Ninja save game. On the carrier. Right before the double tanks. And the dragon mecha. And the luster alchemist bout. Can't a schmo have some peace of mind?!  pale

31Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:54 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
That part is a tad dull I admit, but can be skipped if you have True Inferno lined up (skips the Double tanks). Dragon Mecha is an easy 1 minute stomp, same with our friend the Mask if you know your gameplan.

But yeah, NG3:RE. It's good now Razz

https://stinger.actieforum.com

32Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:11 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I think Razor's Edge was more a mixture of the DLC they were working on, put together. But I can imagine that crunch was a good part of what was going on. Hayashi was known in the past to be an extreme hardhead cruncher, which is why Itagaki took notice of him, so there's that.

The Scythe and Claw animations present in vanilla NG3's demon Ryu boss were actually the NGII moveset, but it is clear from their release-window that Team Ninja were working on other weapons when the game was 'gold' and prepared for shipping. I am thinking that some weapons were also removed from the game, but that's conjecture. There's an interview earlier on where Hayashi notes that there will be multiple weapons in NG3, only to have the full game contain none but the katana. This could also have been a reference to the 3 katana's you wield, so I'm not sure on that.

But with the time window, yeah. Ninja Gaiden 3 released March 2012, and June saw the reveal demo of NG3:RE for the WiiU. The later trailer showed Ayane playable, the dual-katanas, new SoB mechanic, new lunar and 'mental' battles in Ryu's mind etc.

First article regarding its gameplay:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120817004110/www.2d-x.com/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge-wii-u-it-doesnt-suck/

You want my take? The game was deep in production and when finished, Team Ninja got to work on the DLC packs for added weapons and extra trials. But then the game bombed and DLC sales were lower than projected. By a sheer twist of fate, Nintendo - looking to expand its WiiU launch library - stepped in and offered a deal. All upcoming DLC was canceled (which would explain why the last DLC was so devoid of content) and they went to work on making a full game out of it paired with the hardcore feedback.

But that's all conjecture. 100%.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

33Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:04 pm

Hicho9

Hicho9
D-Rank
@Royta/Raeng wrote:
First article regarding its gameplay:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120817004110/www.2d-x.com/ninja-gaiden-3-razors-edge-wii-u-it-doesnt-suck/

You want my take? The game was deep in production and when finished, Team Ninja got to work on the DLC packs for added weapons and extra trials. But then the game bombed and DLC sales were lower than projected. By a sheer twist of fate, Nintendo - looking to expand its WiiU launch library - stepped in and offered a deal. All upcoming DLC was canceled (which would explain why the last DLC was so devoid of content) and they went to work on making a full game out of it paired with the hardcore feedback.

But that's all conjecture. 100%.


Definitely a very good and perhaps likely true theory!  I still wonder at that tight timeline and just how much was re-worked for Razor's Edge...

I clearly remember reading that article from Gabriel Zamora (aka Dracozombie on GameFaqs).  He was a freelance game journalist that was actually an actual NG fan/player who covered the game and knew what he was talking about. I remember eagerly awaiting further news/posts from him when he had that first hands on with Razor's Edge!

34Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:15 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
What are some other strings/tricks to know (Mainly regarding the Dragon Sword)? I've been using the same 6 combos, and while they're all fun, it gets a tad tiresome.

When I say tricks, I don't mean JUST with the Dragon Sword. I'm just talking about useful tricks in general to make the game less repetitive to mix things up.

I really don't know the best strings for each weapon, only the Dragon Sword.

What are the strings that you guys use MOST OFTEN for each weapon? Not necessarily the most practical, but the most used?

35Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:47 pm

Hicho9

Hicho9
D-Rank
@TheFirmament1
I am a mostly Dragon Sword only player as well!  But, I don't have any special tricks or combos that you I am sure don't already know and use yourself.  I just started another play through of Razor's Edge on Master Ninja after having gone through Normal and Hard since starting a new file on the X1X.  

What I am having alot of fun doing now coming back to the game is playing around and combining some of the various combat systems/options --- combos, counters, Steel on Bone, Cicada Surge, the slide/Reverse Wind, Furious Wind....and how all of them can link together in interesting ways.  I have been especially really playing with Cicada Surge right now and integrating that into my gameplay alot more.  I have also been focusing alot on exploring the subtleties of Furious Wind in Razor's Edge, which is hugely critical to the combat in this game more than the others I feel as when you Furious Wind it allows you to immediately slide back into the enemy to counterattack.  The fact that you can Furious Wind out your block of an enemy strike AND also Furious Wind out when an enemy blocks your own attack makes things deep as hell....

It is crazy to me to see how many players out there to this day think Razor's Edge combat does not have depth, or just dismiss the game entirely...

36Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:34 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Hicho9

Honestly, I can't completely blame them. Because outside of the combat mechanics, and certain bosses/enemies like Doku, the game is kind of a disaster. It's just that the combat is SO GOOD, that is elevates itself to a high-tier.

37Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:17 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Royta/Raeng

Do you think a weapon switch system in future games ala God of War 3 where Ryu has a transitional attack when he switches could work? I think both of us could agree that a DMC-style switching system would be really weird for Ryu, and wouldn't quite fit with him.

38Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:12 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I think the system Nioh had would be a good fit, where you could swap at the end of a 'combo' to another weapon in a 'change weapon attack' which was usually a high damage but slow and unsafe move. I always liked that idea.

That said, I'd honestly prefer they keep the NGII system but remove the pause from it, so that you're more likely to not switch weapons during combat. I always felt something akin to a 'preparation' system felt more at home in Ninja Gaiden, where you had to plan the fights out so to speak.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

39Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:16 pm

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
The Regent of the Mask is the videogame boss equivalent to that kid you played tag with when you were younger that refused to admit that you touched him

If you don't know what I'm referencing, it's the fact that you can break his guard, and he immediately puts it back up again, so if I guard break him with the first hit of YYY, none of them will do any damage, because he just blocks the second and third hits, despite his animation.

40Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:47 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
He's basically fighting a lame and buffed version of Doppleganger Ryu from NGB, guy just blocks like mad and is hard to hit. There are ways around it, but by god are they dull ways. Still remember NG3 Vanilla, in trials we'd just point and shoot with two bows locking him down. Could take up to 20 minutes but hey, it was safe haha!

https://stinger.actieforum.com

41Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:34 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
Just gonna complain about the game some more.

The enemy design is still by far the weakest point of the gameplay. The soldiers/assassins, shield soldiers, Spider Ninjas (Both modern, and traditional), invisible guys, black alchemists, shadow fiends, Ouroboros, and Magna fiends all work pretty well, but the:

- Megaselions
- Celsus
- White Alchemists
- Van Gelfs (How did they screw those up?)

Are all just straight up fun-killers. Mostly because of their dumbass autoblock/dodge (The other enemies I listed have it, but not NEARLY to the same degree). And SoB/OTs being very fiddly on them.

The ridiculously long grab animations are annoying too. Look, either make them super quick and to the point, or let me escape them, goddammit.

The Obaba fight is a poor man's Cronos from GoW3.

And I don't know about you, but for the standing shuriken throw, I'd prefer it if Ryu could alternate hands when throwing them one by one. And have a more forceful animation as well. It would make juggling enemies with shurikens look a lot less weird, IMO.

Despite my gripes though, I still have a LOT of fun with the combat when it works.

42Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:56 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I think some foes really shine better in their bigger setups, White Alchemists are a joy to fight if you know how to setup an SoB chain while they are near, as it really puts it into a game of cat-and-mouse. But face to face they are just dull hyper-armour monsters that dodge constantly.

Van Gelfs are pretty okay to fight, but you really need moves that go for the head like XX>YYY with the DS to kill them quickly. Them being immune to SoB still sits wrong with me, it should at least delimb them I feel.

Agree that Obaba feels out of place, but she's basically a hold-over from NG3's vanilla attempt to copy the west.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

43Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:05 pm

Phorus1987

Phorus1987
D-Rank
@Royta. For the record I gave NG3 RE the same treatment I would have give any other hack and slasher after all this is my favourite genre of gaming which I've spent the most time on. I test/experiment my games before I choose to comment on them, that's just the way I am.

I'm not sure which NG Veterans/Pros you're referring to I know you mentioned ShowR18 but from the Pro NGS2 players I have spoken with disagree with your statement regarding NG3 RE has more depth and better combat than NGS2.

Of all the pro players in my circle, I only know 2 players who spent a considerable amount of time on NG3 RE because the other 10-15 pro players including myself didn't like NG3 RE and that is Sergen-The-Boss and SoundDreamer. True I didn't play NG3 RE as much as I have its predecessors.

Since I haven't invested 3000+ hours in NG3 RE perhaps my viewpoint would change, however, after speaking with arguably the best NG3 RE player on the planet SoundDreamer he believes NG3 RE is fun to play but in his eyes it doesn't have the same appeal as NGS2 does, nor the depth and the satisfaction of the games mechanics and combat.

Furthermore to address the ninpo is overpowered topic of conversation, yes in some games mainly NGS1 you can Inazuma ninpo for fun and Inferno ninpo destroys Masakado. From an NGS2 standpoint, ninpo is far from overpowered which is what I was trying to state in my previous post which was misconstrued.

Sure you can use nothing but ninpo to get out of a difficult mob or even the Double Rasetsu encounter in Chapter 14 via PV ninpo but generally against bosses ninpo isn't going to be effective at all.

The Bone giant is another boss who is susceptible to PV ninpo after he stumbles to the ground but you can deal more damage to him through combos than you can with a fully upgraded PV to his ribcage.

To a lesser extent ninpo is effective against GigaDeath, Tengus, Blue Dragon and the Nuclear Armadillo, hardly overpowered in my opinion, since combos will generally out damage any shot of ninpo to bosses.

Even though you can spam ninpo lets say WB on the stairway of chapter 13 on MN difficulty if your not proficient enough at the game and you have barely any resources available to restore your ki slots via Muramasa you will be wasting yellow essence on ninpos when healing items should take precedence.

Then you take into consideration if you don't collect all 30 crystal skulls you're going to be paying a premium to buy 3 DWM's every difficult encounter which is going to stack-up if you're going through an entire playthrough of MN for the first time.

The majority of NGS2 players and streamers I watch either on Twitch or YouTube can waste all their consumables on a single boss fight alone, we're talking 3 Herbs, 3 Grains, 3 DWM's and a Talisman of Rebirth because they don't understand the bosses attack patterns and are still relatively fresh to the game.

To replace all this is either going to take some serious essence probably in the region of 55-60K or you find items on corpses or through chests to lower the burden.

Sorry for the long post.

44Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:49 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I can see your point, but don't you think you're also being a tad hypocritical and biased towards Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2?

As noted in my previous post, a lot of the things you mentioned in regards to Razor's Edge can easily be claimed in regards to your favourite title. I.e. your statement that the only way to play on higher levels is the Scythe's 360 move, if you're playing efficiently perhaps. The same can be noted about NGS2, sure one can play stylish like you do with a complex counter-setup against Fiend Genshin, or you can just >T >TTX with the Tonfa and kill him in seconds. Does that mean either game is completely doable with just that? Yes. Does that mean anything in regards to the overal combat quality? No, every game has overpowered mechanics or setups, it is what we find beyond those that make the system breath imo, and all games in the franchise have that.

That was what I was trying to discuss with you, and also why I was so surprised by your disregard of Razor's edge. You say you gave it a fair shake, but that didn't feel that way, also in regards to the 'mashing', other weapons not being viable, the Ninpo system etc.

Regarding Ninpo, not sure what your point is now. Ninpo has always been powerful, which was my point. It is less strong against bosses for sure, the same can be said of NG3RE though where you can only use one, which also removes other combat options so it is risky, while in the former you can use up to 5 in a boss without any penalty. Meanwhile certain bosses in NG3:RE are just as immune to ninpo as in titles like NG(S)2 and WB is no longer a true delimb. If anything Ninpo is less powerful in NG3:RE with some niche exceptions i.e. True Inferno against the dual-spider boss which requires a lot of for-sight and preparation to get.

Can you understand my/our critism of your arguments? As noted before, you say you gave it a good run before giving it an opinion, I feel though that you never really dove in in said run and dabbled in what the combat offered beyond quickly going to the most powerful option. A lot of your arguments were also quite quickly refuted, and you haven't really given insight in why you made them in the first place.

If someone would have made the same style claims towards NGS2 I wonder if you'd have been as respectful as I have tried to be.

Some final notes that I couldn't fit in my story:

> Sounddreamer
I wouldn't call him the best NG3:RE player. He is opposite of you I feel, very efficient, doesn't play with the game's mechanics beyond what he needs to complete a trial. That is why I prefer players akin to ShowR, plays much more with the game's potential. Sounddreamer just picks a stage and throws his corpse at it for months until he gets a win using nothing but the bare essentials in moveset. Not sure if that is most skilled or just most masocistic/patient.

> using Ninpo to clear the staircase
Ninpo breeds Ninpo drops, you're going to not run out if you use it smartly since it counts as a non-UT kill. NGS2 has the easiest economy in the series since you don't need to upgrade weapons through money. The point was that Ninpo was strong, saying that players who are so bad that they need all those healing items to beat one boss doesn't really prove a point, just means they are bad players. Not sure what statement you want to make here. Ninpo is powerful throughout the series, but in Razor's Edge they managed to cull it a bit through it fueling other combat options as well. Moreso with characters like Momiji. A far superior choice imo and an improvement in the series I hope they keep in the future.

> sorry for the long post
Dude, not at all! Though I would have liked to see you explain where these comments came from and why you feel that certain of those things were such in your mind despite evidence to the contrary, instead of constantly refering back to 'pro NGS2' players.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

45Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:13 am

Phorus1987

Phorus1987
D-Rank
I wouldn't say my views are biased towards NGS2, Yes it's my favourite game within the modern franchise but it has its flaws and they're many. Allow me to clarify my position, NGS2 was the first NG I ever played, before moving on to NG3 Vanilla, NG3 Razor's Edge and I have dabbled here and there in both NGS1+ on the PS Vita and NG2 Vanilla on the Xbox 360.

Since NGS2 was my first exposure to the series and it's the game I have invested an absorbent amount of time on in comparison to the other main series titles this is always going to be my frame of reference.

As I have previously stated, you can adopt a first-tier strategy in any game regardless of its genre and NG is no different. You find 'cheese' in any game and exploit it, without question the most exploited things in NGS2 again my frame of reference is Rachel's twirl and the infamous UN2 out of bounds glitch.

By restricting the number of ki-slots to a simple one-time use ninpo gauge does make ninpo more tactical since you can only cast it once, however, if I recall correctly in NG3 RE in the Ninja Trials if I select WB ninpo and I play a mission the gauge to fill that ninpo is incredibly short allowing you to cast multiple times within a mission, which is no different to having 2 shots of ki in NGS2 mission mode.

The ninpo's effectiveness in NG3 RE may not be as potent as it is in NGS2 but you can still cast certain ninpo more than once in a mission. Yes, you can spam ninpo in NGS2 if you wish, I have already stated this. It's a first-tier strategy against difficult enemy encounters to help you overcome them.

Adept players will only use ninpo for 2 reasons, first to ninpo cancel out of a bad situation to prevent taking unnecessary damage and secondly to get out of a tight situation. Ninpo from an NGS2 standpoint is used as a get out of jail free card if you like, a last resort or used tactically to prolong your life, does that mean to say it's not abusable? of course not.

My opinions of NG3 RE are just as valid as anyone else's is. When coming from NGS2 into NG3 then moving on to NG3 RE the game had very drastic changes, change isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, NG3 was an absolute abomination, having played hack and slash games since the early '90s, I would go as far as to say NG3 vanilla is on par with DMC2 for its respective franchise.

You have to understand I came from NGS2 first, perhaps NG3 has left a bitter taste that hasn't gone away but I'm not saying NG3 RE is worse than NG3 vanilla because it did address some issues with its predecessor.

NG3 Vanilla had incredibly bad programming I remember trying to Izuna drop Genshin and mid-combo he would fly-out of my combo! Bosses lacked health bars, no weapon/ninpo or character variety, etc.

As I have iterated NGS2 has a lot of flaws, no game is perfect nor am I biased to NGS2 I have played for 9+ years I have seen glitches and flaws that haven't been recorded for the public eye. The only other game I have played for this length of time in my 28 years of gaming is DMC3 SE on the PS2.

I have previously talked about NGS2 and how the game could have been made better several years ago which ended up being 3-4 parts. If I was a 'fanboy' of NGS2 I wouldn't slate the game for 35-40 minutes however long it was.

I still don't understand the notion that NG3 RE was this great game, coming from a business standpoint if the game was such a brilliant game I would be playing NG4 right now. There is no doubt in my mind NG3 RE is vastly inferior to NG1 and NG2 period.

I'm confounded nobody has addressed my original post regarding the removal of essence in NG3 and its successor. The removal makes UT's less potent in the sense that you're unable to UT chain nor are you able to UT cancel. I'm not sure how to respond to your comments relating to SD at least from an NG3 RE perspective.

As I have previously stated I haven't played any other NG title for the same hours as I have NGS2. The most important aspect to delving deeper into any game is 'Enjoyment' if you enjoy playing a game then you already have the motivation/will or the drive to delve into advanced mechanics, If you enjoy NG3 RE power to you, but this is not a game that appeals to me.

Sorry for the long post!


46Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 am

Birdman


Moderator
I've often heard tales of how bad vanilla NG3 is.

Question: To understand how bad it is, do you need to have played other NG games or is it noticeable as a bad game, period?

47Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:28 pm

Phorus1987

Phorus1987
D-Rank
@Birdman - Personally I don't think you need to have played other NG games to notice how bad NG3 Vanilla is. When I think about games I ask myself how many games have I played in my gaming career where enemies can blatantly escape your offense mid-combo, bosses that don't even have a health bar underneath them is incredible to me.

The only instance in NGS2 where a boss doesn't have a life bar is Zedonius in the team mission UN01. NG3 Vanilla is full of unnecessary quick time events which are mandatory to progress the story, having only a single weapon the Dragon sword prior to paid dlc being released that gave you the Falcon Talons and Eclipse Scythe.

Having only a single choice for ninpo really limits your options, not only does it take what feels like an eternity to fill but it gets incredibly monotonous after you've seen it a bunch of times. The bosses lack creativity and feel misplaced.

If I recall there are only the following bosses, note this is based on memory as I don't play NG3 RE or its predecessor.

Spider Tank
Regent of the Mask
Helicopter
Giganotosaurus
Lovelace
Old guy encased in a dinosaur robot mech
Obaba
Cliff
Final Boss (Little girl)

The spider tank is just a tank with legs nothing really creative here in my opinion, the Helicopter is pretty much what it is in NGS1. The Dinosaur fight is incredibly lame and no thought was put into how to defeat it. Simply evade until it falls to the ground and attack it when its down, that's all you do.

Regent of the mask isn't a bad antagonist but he's definitely no Genshin. Lovelace is an interesting boss design as is the old guy in the robot mech, I enjoy fighting that boss for some strange reason. Cliff is nothing special, Obaba is a gimmick fight and the final boss is a more spammy version of the Buddha statue from NGS2 with fiends for backup on a tiny arena.

If I'm not mistaken there is a weird xenomorph or alien looking boss in NG3 RE on a female characters stage which I think is Ayane but don't quote me on that. So that makes 10 bosses in total, as a comparison NGS2 has more than double that so does NGS1.

There are a load more bad points but I think you get the idea.

48Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:32 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
@Phorus1987

Sigma 2 was also the first Ninja Gaiden I played, so on that we're similar! It's what got me into the series. I went NGS2 > NGS1 > NG3 > NG3RE > NG > NGB > NGII. Ironically if you were to ask me which game is my favourite now in what order, it would probably be close to the reverse of that playorder.

Regarding your points, I'm really confused as to what your stance is now. First you claim that NG3:RE only can be beaten using the Scythe's 360Y, and now you say that every game has such broken options (which is true, as I noted it above as well). So, how is that a negative towards NG3:RE if every game, including NGS2 (i.e. Racheltwirl, or other overpowered attacks), has that flaw as well? That's my question and what I'm not clear on. So, do you still believe NG3:RE can only be beaten using the scythe?

You note that Ninja Gaiden players use Ninpo for two reasons, and I can relate to those, but is that not also why the system is better in Razor's Edge? As the meter now also has a use outside of the Ninpo system i.e. Cicada and Airshot. That's a strength, not a weakness. In regards to ninpo usage, you can get quite some Voids if you want in a single trial, though again the meter has more uses than just 'use ninpo', mostly being heals and cicada, the latter of which is a key element in Razor's Edge combat system. Without it you're gimped against certain foes and bosses.
Using challenge runs as examples is a non-issue to this discussion in my opinion, you can also limit yourself to not using ninpo entirely in NG3:RE or not abusing SoB chains, just as you can limit Ninpo or UTchaining in NGS2.

So yeah, that's more what I mean with the bias. Not only do you dance from opinion to opinion, you don't really adress it when you do or why. Makes it really hard to have a talk about it with you in that sense. At one point you say that Razor's Edge is mashing, then you don't. Then it can only be beaten with one weapon, then it can't. Then the Ninpo system is busted, then it is busted in all games, and then it is busted only in NG3RE again. That's more why I'm searching for what your opinion on the title is, it seems very 'fluid' at the moment.

Regarding the essence system, I liked it but Razor's Edge doing away with UT chaining was a smart move imo. It was far to easy in previous titles to just negate entire encounters, or even the whole game, with UTchains. Razor's Edge actually demands you fight for your game, while in the others when you learned how to OLUT you basically had won the game and the only reason to dive further in the combat mechanics was because that player had a thirst to do so. The essence system in itself I do miss, in how certain attacks gave more, how high combos gave more, how regular kills gave health/ninpo refills, etc. it was a nice balance. I think NGII's mission mode had the best set of essence with Karma Orbs really switching it up.

About Sounddreamer, yeah that's personal. I can see why some people find it interesting to watch, I've done similar runs as him in other games (meaning long hard fights with huge handicaps). But I'm still on the fence where I'd place that.

Enfin, we're going in circles. Imo NG3:RE is a fantastic game, best combat in the series. Great weapons, best Ninpo system, second best UT system (NG2004 has it beat imo), shame karma and shops are gone, horrible enemies, terrible bosses, shame platforming is gone haha! Bam, there's my review Razz

@Birdman

You can just play it and notice it immediately. Not only is it busted graphically with slowdown, the lack of content in combat-options shines through as early as the first stage. Playing this game and then playing Razor's Edge is a bigger miracle than going from DMC2 to DMC3. NG3 really is one of the worst action games I have ever played. Which makes it so scary how good NG3:RE is to me.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

49Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:19 am

TheFirmament1


C-Rank
@Royta/Raeng, do you think that a separate bar for Ninpo/Cicada and other stuff could work? Like, maybe have the Ninpo still be a meter like it is here, but Cicada surges and whatnot work more like old Ninpo where you have a certain number of charges?

Focus shot could be like, every second, one charge is removed. And for every second for healing, another is removed. And Cicada surge requires one charge to use.

Just a thought, really. I wasn't really a fan of everything relying on that meter.

Oh, and if there's one addition that NEEDS to be in any future games... It's the ability to Izuna Drop, dismember, and obliterate dogs.

50Random Razor's Edge thread Empty Re: Random Razor's Edge thread on Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:46 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I wouldn't make it more complicated than it needs to be honestly. I think the meter is fine, though I would like to see it work more in 'chunks' like Metal Gear Rising had. That makes it easier to gauge what you can use and how much it will cost. Because right now it isn't really clear at times if you have enough for a Cicada for instance.

So for example you'll have a long meter existing out of 10 blocks. Cicada costs one block, Eagle Eye costs one block, healing just drains them one at a time for health and maybe you can use different levels of Ninpo depending on how much meter you 'invest' in it. How does that sound?

I do agree most 'undelimbable' foes need to go. Ninja Gaiden II's red-dragons are an especially big nuisance, doesn't play to the game's strengths at all I feel. Though with dogs I fear that might be a ratings issue. I'd say just ditch the foe.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

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