Vanquish: General discussion

The comments in that video are just insane. Why does everybody need games to just be cuhrayzee exhibits? And now there's a wave of people(partially because of Mayo) that think that any game where you stand still at all is somehow bad, and you should always be moving and swapping weapons every half a second like you have crippling ADHD.

I actually LIKE being able to set up traps and choke points in my shooting games. I enjoy having big powerful weaponry that can take down multiple enemies at once. I like using my offense to play defense. But I guess all of this isn't "fOrCiNg yOu iNtO A fUn zOnE" so it's bad.

So many comments saying "the game is more like a concept than a real game". That's weird, I probably have about 300-400 hours in the game. That's a lot of time and mechanics I discovered for a concept! Imagine how much depth all these real games like Doom Eternal must ha-oh wait.

Goddamn I'm so annoyed and I shouldn't be.

Yep, the guy is 100% mechanically blind dipshit.

One of his followers are in the comments. Made a list of games that he says don't have dodge offset but they all have it.

Believes no one will touch Vanquish guns if they aren't given a reason to because they already have a powerful one from the start. There's definitely idiots like that, but I bet most players picked up whatever they saw. I did. Greedily. All the 'weird' weapons are my favorites.

And you can tell they did, because of all the 'LFE is useless' comments.

The LFE is like this internal checkbox for "do you know gaming" in terms of Vanquish it almost feels like. If people just use the machine guns...such a shame, you're missing out on so much of the fun.

A lot of those comments really are sheep sadly

I can't get over his Elden Ring video. He went nuts.

You can see how he helplessly looks and turns in different directions. No ability to think or act until told to do so.

I already said this in another comment on his Vanquish vid but I'm 100% positive that his favourite DMC would be DmC, since the color coded enemies will actually force him to experiment and change strats.

Makes sense that he's the target audience that developers have in mind when they make Color Coded Enemies. All the harsh jokes etc. aside, I do feel it's painful to read that he's basically building a community of people that aren't going to press buttons if not directly told or forced to do so.

Does Mario World need to have specific jumps that you can only clear with Yoshi otherwise "why use him at all"? Are we really reaching that point of gaming?

HAHAHAHA

Melancholy Man exposed HARD.

He was wrong about everything regarding dodge offset. First he said it didn't exist outside of Platinum games. I list some that have it. He doesn't answer those.

He's been wrong about every game he listed. Now he's making excuses.

He doesn't consider it a mechanic in Nier Automata. Not how it works, idiot.

Then when exposed on MGR he replies 'But who dodges in MGR?'

Mechanically blind retard.

I thought the video was bad but man, those comments do my head in. Its been 12 years people, Vanquish isn't that hard to understand, right?

I don't get this guy.

He's saying that outside of Bayo, dodge offset means nothing. But he didn't even know it was present in all the games he said it wasn't. You can't NOT do it Transformers. It's automatic. Don't think he's played any of these games.

Also has no idea other games have it. I listed a few. Wonder what his excuse will be this time.

Edit: HAHAHA he runnin' scared.

"We're done here. I don't deal with dishonest people who move goalposts."

Huh?

He's been moving them all over the place. I'm trying to counter his squirming but I get the blame for it?

He can't answer the list, just as I thought. Let's see if my taunts keep him coming back.

what video are you guys talking about ?

This one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RbTb0TkSLw&ab_channel=UnderTheMayo
Don't know if you already know him but he got a lot of pretty terrible takes when in comes to action games.

> dodge offset
It's a key element to highlevel MGR:R play too, since it allows you to access later moves fast. The final hit of the Pincer moveset is the strongest, so you can do the first two hits before doing dodges each, and immediately hit with the strongest attack - very handy against Monsoon who has a small punish period.

If he played any of the games that were listed it was following the Mayo style of "Tell me exactly what to do!".

Hard to believe the guy has followers. I can't get over his ER meltdown. Then saying he'll continue streaming for 10 an hour. Disgusting.

Looks like his little lapdog has run for the hills. Shame. He has yet to answer for his crimes.

Oh boy.

I try to not to get too worked up about people having opinions - as we all do - but 30 seconds into the video, he introduces the game as a "third-person cover shooter". Third-person shooter would have been fine. At least he's lettting us know what we're in for.

The weapon limit - something he's criticised in general a few times before, but doesn't seem to mention that (good) games are designed around their weapon limit, whatever it might be. Doom wouldn't be as fun with a weapon limit. Halo would be a very different game if it didn't encourage you to think strategically about what pair of weapons you carry, which is influenced by the properties of the different enemy types. You don't need to have access to 10 guns at any given time in every single action game.

Upgrade system - he is right that the upgrade system is junk, but I think that's a common opinion. I was disappointed that he didn't reference the fact that the upgrade system is a crutch that you don't actually need, which is why the top difficulty abandons it. Same as Witch Time in Bayo1, and the skull icons in Viewtiful Joe. Could even argue RE4 kinda does this on Professional where the dynamic difficulty gets ditched. Maybe we should have told him RE1 and Vanquish have the same director...

Tech - don't worry guys, he knows the tech! He knows how to reload cancel...but didn't think to mention simple things like how every gun has a different melee attack, and how the moves can expand your toolkit by offering different abilities and properties. I'm genuinely surprised that someone who is an "advanced" Doom player, an old-school God of War fan and a former competitive Mortal Kombat player didn't think to...well, think about this stuff.

It's more fun to be good than it is to get good - I kind of agree with this to an extent, but isn't that the case with a lot of games? It's more fun to beat a level by demonstrating your mastery of the game than it is to fail, right? I get that it's the idea of "the journey" vs "the destination", but you can definitely have fun with Vanquish on a first playthrough, even though I'd agree it's better on subsequent playthroughs. Very surprised that he suggested Bayo1 on normal is easier than Vanquish on normal...certainly wasn't the case for me first time around.

Just a separate note, it looks like he practically glued himself to the machine guns for his playthrough didn't it? I suppose this makes sense given his upgrade system complaint, but come on...there are definitely parts of the game where your brain should say to you "yep, this other weapon probably seems like a good idea here" and prompt you to experiment. Again, you'd think someone that champions Doom Eternal's "use everything" approach to combat design would...try out everything.

Oh, and I did watch your video reply @Royta/Raeng, I enjoyed it. I think your points about doing research and having experience with the game are pretty spot-on. He's asking for trouble making these sorts of reviews about deep/complex games and then demonstrating that he doesn't really get it. He was quick to jump to Doom Eternal's defence when inexperienced players criticised it's combat design (and just for the sake of transparency, I agree with most of Mayo's Doom defending, I love the game).

The guy is on a non-stop world tour of pissing off fanbases of other games - we've had Ultrakill, Elden Ring and now Vanquish. Who's next? Is nobody safe?

He is all over the place. I agree with some things .

health system - I also have a major gripe with this system. I'm curious to know what was the intention behind this mechanic. It's especially egregious on godhard mode.

Enemy design&mechanics - I understand this. On normal mode enemies sort of blend into one another, same case with transformers devastation. Godhard mode rectifies this he would know if he played it on this difficulty.

Upgrade system - Agree with this too. Pointless system which discourages weapon variety.

The game also doesn't tell you about the taunt mechanic which is a shame because that can alleviate the need for cover.He didn't mention it but it is a major blunder from PG. I'm willing to bet a lot of people would play this stylishly if they knew about the taunt.

Everything else though feels like a skill issue.

He started playing better on his second playthrough when he became accustomed to the game. you don't say!

limited weapons - No issue here every weapon is unique & serves an important role.

shame he didn't play the challenges those are the best part of vanquish. enemy remixes could have also made enemy stand out much more.

Also checked his bayonetta review & what a terrible review that is

First he criticizes the game for being too easy & then complains about the jump in difficulty when he plays on hard. Make it make sense.

Calls bayo a button masher then acknowledges about the secondary weapon function which the game explains during tutorial & then reverts back to calling it a button masher. what?

Refers another youtube video about bayo which is also mediocre.

Praises the magic meter yet never talks about Tetsuzanko & Heel stomp or other techniques that use magic only mentions torture attacks.

He seems like the guy who wants every game to play like his favourite game. if a game does something different than his favourite game that is a bad game. These type of people always have the worst takes. He should stick to what he likes if he doesn't want new experiences rather than wasting time playing a game he doesn't like.

Note that he mentioned on Twitter that he scripts, edites and voices his videos in a single afternoon now, so it really is just a bunch of quick takes for quick bucks. He seems very (angrily) selfaware about his shortcomings and decreasing favour. It must suck though, you're "the doom guy", but then Doom has no new content and your job is gone. These are the last motions of a dying animal I feel.

> weapon limit
One could argue that you should be able to carry 4, having the grenades take another place. I might even argue in favour of removing a few (BoostMG for example) or fusing some (pistol+sniper). Still, you could see (and he noted) that he just stuck to the machine guns for easy "boom i shot things yay".

> a game is more fun when you're good at it
I mean, isn't that for most games? Doom Eternal is horrid if you're garbage at it, so is Doom 2016, Ninja Gaiden, Sekiro, any competative game. If you're terrible you won't have a lot of fun in them I feel.

> melee attacks
Since they're a resource, that needs to be managed, I'm not surprised he never used it nor noticed that Sam has an entire moveset available.

> journey vs destination
This is what I don't get. I could get this with games like God Hand, NGII, Doom, Sekiro, hell even with games like Resident Evil - but Vanquish? The game is practically a cinematic game on Normal with tons of cool shit moments and it's legit hard to die. It boggles my mind that he found the game this difficult. Especially since he's probably playing on M&K.

> game doesn't tell you about taunt
Should it though? I mean, Ninja Gaiden for comparison doesn't tell you *shit*. I figured out OLUTs by accident, others might learn it from others. Imo sometimes just making the tools is enough, no need for a dedicated tutorial on all the tools. It's more a bonus than a core mechanic anyway.

> bayo1 review
As you noticed, he's generally not that good at making arguments and contradicts himself constantly (what you get for writing a script in 1 hour).

Should be noted that in his latest video he praised Doom Eternal’s tutorials. You know, the ones that pop up and tell you how to kill the bosses. Let that sink in.

This is also the same guy in his “doom eternal doesn’t limit creativity” or whatever video, he lists all these ways to kill an arachnotron. Really interesting considering how inefficient most of that shit is(he actually recommends using the shotgun), yet all the ways to go about encounters in other games he scoffs at, because there’s always something “safer”. By his logic, isn’t Doom Eternal a piece of shit, considering how weak everything is compared to triple rockets and ss/balista swap?

>about people having opinions
They're fine as long as they aren't lying or mechanically blind.

>knowing tech
Knowing and applying are two very different things. I bet he just read up on them before the review.

>every gun has a different melee
Because he and his followers don't touch other options unless the game freezes and tells them exactly what the weapons do and how to use them. They don't have the ability to think for themselves.

>expand your toolkit
They hate stuff like this. They fear options.

>player didn't think to think
You're asking WAY to much of Mayo and his cult.

>more fun to get good than be good
They're the same for me. The process of learning is fucking AMAZING.

>but you can definitely have fun with Vanquish on a first playthrough
I had huge amounts of fun on my first playthrough. Mayo was too busy not having fun because he could try anything unless the game told him to.

"Tell me exactly what to do." - Mayo in his Elden Ring meltdown.

>glued himself to machine-gun
Because he's a filthy casual with zero creativity.

>where your brain should say
Giving him WAY too much credit again. Watch the Elden Ring video. He's indistinguishable from a child throwing a tantrum.

>Raeng's video spot on
"Do some basic fucking research."

GOLD.

>He was quick to jump to Doom Eternal's defence when inexperienced players criticised
Massive double standards. You can play that game like shit and still win.

>Is anybody safe
Not from me.

It's kind of good he makes these stupid videos as he digs his hole deeper every time. Look up all the counter videos for Ultrakill, ER, and any games mentioned in the style meter and challenge videos. He's getting destroyed.

>especially egregious on godhard mode.
What exactly? The slowdown until full charge?

>On normal mode enemies sort of blend into one another, same case with transformers devastation
Never found this to be the case personally but I like to stop and study enemies before moving on. I'll repeat stages immediately in games where that's possible. Always have a notepad present.

>Pointless system which discourages weapon variety.
I don't think it discourages weapon variety. Not for me anyway. Always greedily grabbed and tested new weapons. Does no one else do this?

>The game also doesn't tell you about the taunt mechanic
Ok sure but just pressing buttons people SHOULD figure this out.

>No issue here every weapon is unique & serves an important role.
True but the thing with him and his cult is they can't touch anything until told to or having it all explained. If they pick up and shoot, and don't see an immediate benefit, they drop it instantly.

>shame he didn't play the challenges
He'd just say they were pointless.

>then complains about the jump in difficulty
He acts like he loves challenge but to me it looks like he only likes games he's good at.

>Calls bayo a button masher
People like him (mechanically blind) don't understand the difference between a button masher, and a game where mashing is possible.

>reverts back
Very common occurrence.

>Refers another youtube video about bayo which is also mediocre.
Well he's not going to refer to all the videos from good players that destroy his argument is he?

>only mentions torture attacks
He wants more focus on QTEs. The guy is a moron.

>never talks about Tetsuzanko & Heel stomp or other techniques that use magic
He doesn't have a clue.

>These are the last motions of a dying animal I feel
We can only hope.

>Doom Eternal is horrid if you're garbage at it
He keeps a different set of rules for himself.

I might replay this soon.

Should I go with PS3 or PS4?

I've asked this before but not sure where, but isn't there something with the remastered framerate?

> Remaster
It has some issues, especially with certain damage values, but honestly unless you've got 300+ hours you're not going to notice that shit. And the benefits (free DLC, 60FPS, access on modern hardware) outweight those issues imo.

> the video
As noted, my biggest issue is the tone+the message. I'm fine with a bunch of first-takes, but then do be open to people that are more in the know. Instead his is a one-day recording for a quick buck, few day-one takes and then he gets pissy and arrogant that those who know, are idiots. It completely misses the mark for me.

Enfin. I'm kinda done talking about him. I've added him to my Ignore List on Twitter since I'm done with his stupidity just like I was wat GamingBrit.

>Should it though?
Absolutely. Game features an elaborate tutorial section that explains the basic movement optiions. I don't see how explaining an another simple yet important mechanic is a bad idea. It is also nonsensical hence should be explained. If the mechanic worked like Wonderful 101's blocking mechanic or Bayo's combo strings that can be understood organically by playing then i would have no issue with it.

>It's more a bonus than a core mechanic anyway.
Personally i would consider it an important mechanic. I find it much more useful than some of the melee attacks and guns. Like i said it also allows you to play more stylishly.

>What exactly?
The whole mechanic. the fact that you automatically go into AR mode once your health is low feels too out of my control combine that with slow recharging and it becomes really annoying. I'm not even sure what the purpose of this mechanic is.

>Never found this to be the case personally but I like to stop and study enemies before moving on. I'll repeat stages immediately in games where that's possible. Always have a notepad present.

I try to enjoy the campaign on my first playthrough. I'll experiment as i move along the story but i mostly stick to beating the game on my first playthrough however i can.

>I don't think it discourages weapon variety.
It does though. he explainded it properly in the video. On your first playthrough player won't have any idea about what's coming hence they will try to make use of the passive benefits. Not only that the mechanic also doesn't have any interesting about it.

>He wants more focus on QTEs.
Are they considered QTEs ? I guess they could be considered some form of QTEs.

>automatically go into AR mode once your health is low
>but why?
I don't like this aspect either. I guess they thought it would protect players?

>I try to enjoy the campaign on my first playthrough
Taking notes and testing stuff is how I enjoy it. Though I won't spend hours and hours. That comes on my second run.

>It does though
Not for me.

>he explained it properly in the video
And I disagreed because I don't believe anyone can be made to not try other guns.

>On your first playthrough player won't have any idea about what's coming
Then their currently equipped weapon doesn't mean much.

>they will try to make use of the passive benefits
That's their choice. I switched and ran with whatever new thing came up.

>are they QTEs
Not reaction ones I guess. You just mash buttons. But it's awful that he wanted to focus on those of all things.

I'm planning on a Disk Launcher run. Roy, didn't you do something like this?

> Automatic AR
Yeah that mode is trash. I wish it was just disabled, since you never 'need' it. It would've been cool that you could activate it through a menu option or w/e but it is what it is.

> explain mechanics
I'm still a bit weird on this personally, I mean logically speaking it's far better to explain everything so you can just have players ready to jump in. But a lot of fun for me is to just play a game and learn as I go organically. Older games tended to have manuals as a backup, but I couldn't read those and still did fine. Warrior Within has a ton of mechanics to it, but there's no constant stream of information of what you can do after a vault, wallvault or grab you know. Same with Ninja Gaiden, which has a ton of hidden tech.
In terms of the sigs I literally just wondered "what the hell is that icon" for a while until I did it by accident, which was fun in its own right.

> sigs in general
I mean, if you're good, you'll never have them, since you only get 3 of them and they only restore upon death. So if you play well, you'll never have them once you spend them all (though AFAIK you also get 3 new ones per chapter, not sure). Always felt they should just regenerate per act or something, would've been cool.

> don't know what's coming
The game does play into this quite nicely imo with most fights having all the weapons available for pickup anyway. And even then, the extremely low difficulty shouldn't make you feel like always carrying a Sniper around. It's a bit what I had to say about Uncharted 4 a while back in terms of "you get what you put in". You can stealthkill that entire game but honestly you're robbing yourself of fun.

If you're constantly carrying an RPG around 'just in case' and stick to two machine guns, you ruined the game for yourself, the game has nothing to do with that.

>Not for me.
It's not even subjective. Just think about the mechanic & its purpose.

>And I disagreed because I don't believe anyone can be made to not try other guns.
They absolutely can if the game's mechanics discourages them. You can't blame a player for following the game's rules.

>Then their currently equipped weapon doesn't mean much.
It means much more than trying out new weapons. The game assures the player that if they stick to one weapon they will have an easier time.

>That's their choice.
obvously but their choice is heavily affected by the game's mechanics.

>But it's awful that he wanted to focus on those of all things.
Torture attacks are pretty useful so i'm not surprised he mentioned them but i'm disappointed that he didn't mention other uses of magic.

>But a lot of fun for me is to just play a game and learn as I go organically.
Same here. however there is a difference betwixt a game not explaining a nonsenical yet useful mechanic vs a game that does. Bayo doesn't explain the use of its string just shows the movelist and leaves the player on their own to experiment. The player can use their brain to discover which string does what and how they affect the enemies.

Vanquish on the other doesn't explain the cig mechanic. Not only that it also doesn't follow any logic. you have to use hard cover & then after smoking he throws the cig away which works as a distraction. Nothing about this makes any common sense therefore i would have liked if the game had explained it.

>Warrior Within has a ton of mechanics to it, but there's no constant stream of information of what you can do after a vault, wallvault or grab you know.
Don't remember much about POP. Did WW not have a movelist in the the menu? I know T2t had it.

>(though AFAIK you also get 3 new ones per chapter, not sure).

really i didn't know that i only extensively used them on godhard mode. i didn't even know about the mechanic on normal mode.

Always felt they should just regenerate per act or something, would've been cool.
Yeah i agree with with if you if that isn't the case.

>The game does play into this quite nicely imo with most fights having all the weapons available for pickup anyway
That's my point the mechanic is useless. It only deters player from experimenting with weapons.

.And even then, the extremely low difficulty shouldn't make you feel like always carrying a Sniper around.
Difficulty is subjective. Sniper rifle is an excellent choice to carry. It has a good range,Can one hit kill enemies,has an awesome melee attack that can be used to move fast the only downside is low ammo which the upgrade system will take care of.

The game has a 3 or 4 weapon limit as far as i remember. The ideal choice are assault rifle for ammo,shotgun for close quarters and sniper for long range everything else is highly contextual. So if a player stuck with these choices i wouldn't blame them.

>you ruined the game for yourself, the game has nothing to do with that.
The player ruins the game by following game's rules?

>I mean logically speaking it's far better to explain everything so you can just have players ready to jump in
I think they've always done a decent job explaining basics. Like Chaos Legion will briefly mention counters, but not that you can trade hits if your attack power is too low, or that not every attack in the game can be countered.

>It's not even subjective
I believe it is. I can agree that it encourages sticking to a weapon. All I'm saying is you don't have to do it. In my first playthrough I picked up anything and tried it out. Made notes. Didn't stick with everything I touched but planned to come back later. I do understand not everyone will do this.

>Just think about the mechanic & its purpose.
Upgrade and your weapon gets better. I agree it leads to an easier time.

>They absolutely can if the game's mechanics discourages them.
Discouraging isn't forcing. But I understand not everyone will do what I did.

>You can't blame a player for following the game's rules.
It isn't a rule that you have to stick with a gun and keep upgrading it.

>It means much more than trying out new weapons.
I'm not denying that this is the case for some. It's their choice.

>The game assures the player that if they stick to one weapon they will have an easier time.
No different from any game with multiple weapons or characters. You still don't have to do it.

Triangle Strategy has 'recommended' units for each battle. I use who I find the most mechanically interesting.

>Torture attacks are pretty useful so i'm not surprised he mentioned them but i'm disappointed that he didn't mention other uses of magic.
They have a use, sure. Other magic uses definitely should have been mentioned but he was too focused on his HP regen nonsense and trying to make the game like Doom.

>Bayo doesn't explain the use of its string just shows the movelist and leaves the player on their own to experiment. The player can use their brain to discover which string does what and how they affect the enemies.
That's no different from Vanquish guns really. Most if them you can tell what they do from their names alone (assault rifle/HMG/sniper rifle/shotgun) and the weirder stuff you just have to fire a few times to get the idea. All I had to do was point the lock on laser to see what it did.

>which string does what and how they affect the enemies.
But they won't have the same effect on every enemy. Same for moves in the shop. You don't really know how they'll affect other types until you try them.

>cig mechanic
Thought it was a taunt at first. But if you're looking you can see the enemies follow it.

>The ideal choice are assault rifle for ammo,shotgun
I didn't carry a shotgun because I don't like shotguns much in any game though I did test it. I think I kept the rocket launcher instead. Sniper was in and out from what I remember. The rest got a stage run where I found them and took notes.

>So if a player stuck with these choices i wouldn't blame them.
I can agree with this. They're pretty safe. I didn't go full weird stuff until later. Just some testing and notes with plans to return and use them exclusively.

>It only deters player from experimenting with weapons.
Like upgrades do in any game really. It's likely in most games new players will focus their resources into only a few weapons/characters.

I can see how some would be deterred.

>The player ruins the game by following game's rules?
I don't feel these are rules though. It's just what makes things easier.

If they are interested in mechanics then none of this matters. They'll be looking forward to testing stuff on their next playthrough. If not, then they were likely uninterested in mechanics to start with.

I agree it would be better without the upgrade system. But in my experience those uninterested in mechanics stay uninterested. That's what my previous posts were in response to, the Mayo follower who said no one will touch other guns if they aren't shown immediately what they do. All I had to do was point and shoot. Play a segment. Take some notes.

> rules
There's no "rules", at least not that I'm seeing. You're not scored wrongly, you're not punished. You might be slightly directed to a degree. Maybe I'm too used to playing by my own rules, that could be of influence here. The game gives you all these weapons and combat options. If you choose to just use the HMG and hide behind cover and never use meter, that's not the game's "rules" forcing you to do so, that's just your choice. You could argue "then the game shouldn't give you cover" but honestly then you're directing players tooooo much for my taste. Options is good. Let them figure it out.

> weapon limit
That's fair, I wouldn't have minded to just have every weapon equipped, though I understand why it's not the case (controller button limit). Would be less of an issue on PC, but otherwise we'd have been looking at a weapon-wheel which I'm glad they didn't go for.

> learning by yourself
Might be a era-thing too. In the Xbox360 era some games were still pretty light on tutorials, X1/ps4 era was far more "press X to jump". Uncharted 4 LL even has a tutorial on how to pick up treasure which is super weird. My point does still stand though, it's a minor mechanic. If they hadn't explained how slow-mo works I'd have made a point of it too, but they did.

I mean I do get the point mind you, with Ninja Gaiden it ended up that I had to write an entire guide for newcomers just to explain basic tech since the game doesn't even explain shuriken-canceling or its legit keymechanic the OLUT. To me, that's fine, but it led to a ton of newcomers bouncing off these days since they missed out on those mechanics.

> warrior within
It has a move-list that's pages long and hard to scroll through, it also just shows all the moves, even the ones you cannot use yet due to weapon-upgrades being behind. I mostly picked it considering your avatar. TT has a few button promts time to time, but also nothing spectacular like "use the disarm button when enemy is low on health" etc, you have to figure that out yourself.

I think one thing I really like about 'older' games, and less about modern ones, is that the playstyles are wider. Ringing-out is a bonus way of killing enemies in Warrior Within, it's not "the" way. If that game was released today by a company it would be in all the trailer, it'd have a unique combat name, the Prince would have an unlockable luchadore mask, certain enemies would have infinite health and only be killable through ringouts etc.etc. I am exaggerating a bit, but I think you get my point, it wouldn't just be a fun mechanic, it's either key-mechanic or no mechanic at all these days (and if it slips in, it's patched out). Tutorializing things makes them more 'intended' if you get me.

>You might be slightly directed to a degree.
This is true to a degree. Any upgrade system is like this really.

>Remaster issues
I don't have 400 hours but I have enough to notice this stuff I think.
Don't want to be doing damage I'm not supposed to be doing. What were the exact issues again?

The issues aren't related to you doing damage, but in you taking damage. There's a few moves, especially those of the final boss, that now deal almost zero damage if you stand still.

Zaarock has a short video on it:
https://youtu.be/zHBhQt-91-4

PS3 it is then. Mine still works perfectly and I got a new controller.

>It isn't a rule that you have to stick with a gun and keep upgrading it.

I meant mechanics/system. mechanics was getting boring so i used a different word.

>No different from any game with multiple weapons or characters.
Can you give examples i'm not clear what you mean here.

>That's no different from Vanquish guns really.
True that wasn't a good example but i can't really think of another game with a mechanic like this right now. Dodge offset is too complex and more sensible & its also explained in the game.

>Thought it was a taunt at first.
I consider it a taunt. Bayo has a taunt so i consider this a taunt too.

>But if you're looking you can see the enemies follow it.
Why do they follow it?

>I didn't carry a shotgun because I don't like shotguns
That's your personal preferance but shotgun is a fantastic choice from an objective point of view.

>Like upgrades do in any game really. It's likely in most games new players will focus their resources into only a few weapons/characters.
Again i would have to ask examples. There are different kinds of upgrades.

>Options is good. Let them figure it out.
Only if all the options are equally good.

>it's a minor mechanic. If they hadn't explained how slow-mo works I'd have made a point of it too, but they did.

yes they explained all the basic and complex stuff yet couldn't teach a simple mechanic. During a cover section tutorial they could mentioned it. I feel like its a useful mechanic for godhard difficulty not so much for normal.

>is that the playstyles are wider. Ringing-out is a bonus way of killing enemies in Warrior Within, it's not "the" way. If that game was released today by a company it would be in all the trailer,

That hasn't been my experience. take ubisoft for example. A lot of their games use systemic gameplay and don't push anything on the player. AC, Far cry, Watch Dogs even the splinter cell blacklist tried to improve the assasult playstyle to the detriment of the game. POP T2T also introduced stealth giving more options.

>the Prince would have an unlockable luchadore mask,
And that's a bad thing?

>Can you give examples i'm not clear what you mean here.
I just mean when you have multiple weapons or characters players will likely stick with a few rather than keep switching whenever something new comes up.

>Why do they follow it?
I think because it's a heat source.

>That's your personal preferance
Exactly. Based on using it.

>but shotgun is a fantastic choice from an objective point of view.
It is. I don't deny what it can do. I used it but liked other stuff better. I say what I do is a fantastic choice too. But might not be for everyone

>Again i would have to ask examples. There are different kinds of upgrades.
Upgrading a weapon for example. Then getting more weapons as you progress, but your starting weapon by that point may have a lot invested so players might not be interested in switching.

Or the characters in Triangle Strategy. You unlock them fast and can soon have a pile of mechanically different units with no upgrades vs the 5 you've had from the start.

>Only if all the options are equally good.
But they need to be used to uncover good use. And usually not every tool is equal in any game.

> options are good, but only if they're all equally good
Don't quite see that, starting players tend to flock to the Lock on Laser and Assault Rifle - it's less about them flocking to the good options (LFE, RPG,), more to the ones that require the least input / effort from what I'm seeing.
Even then, not all options need to be equally good (don't think there's a game where that has happened), just need to have a usage. Every action game has garbage weapons and garbage moves and also insanely brokenpowerful moves and weapons - yet people use them all if they think the game is fun enough. Otherwise everyone would just use the Tonfa in NGII for example.

> taunt
That works. I always like it when Taunts 'do' something, like God Hand, DMC(1, mostly) and here. There's games like SIFU where it's mostly just "extending" the combo-meter which isn't that impactful imo. I agree it would've been good to add since they have the tutorial, might've been fun like Sam saying "finally done with this dumb tutorial, time for a smoke" and to them show how to do it. Maybe not even show the implication, let them figure that part out themselves maybe would be fun.

> modern ringing out
I'm more refering to current-gen games in that games are constantly more about a core mechanic that's the whole of the deal, instead of a ton of fun mechanics and just do whatever the fuck you want with them to beat the game. Classic GoW had a ton of ringouts, but you could also do a ton of launchers or focus on meter management, while modern GoW has a very singular playstyle if you get my drift, to the point of having invisible walls to stop it. You also see this with patch-culture, i.e. Nioh patching out the jugglesystem as they didn't want that type of combat.

> luchador mask
It would look hilarious, "yo soy el Principe de Persia"!

> upgrades
I mean, I get this for example in a game with a limited resource where upgrades really change the nature of the game i.e. using limited essence in Ninja Gaiden to upgrade a weapon's capabilities and damage. But in Vanquish it's literally just ammo-upgrades, with only the final upgrade being (somewhat) interesting. That said I do feel the entire system is garbage and an afterthought, and I'm glad it's completely gone on God Hard Difficulty.

>taunt
Are you guys referring to the cig? Because to me that’s the opposite of a taunt.

>only if options are equally good
I thought this for a long time but the reality is that this is nearly impossible to achieve unless you put hard caps on uses, and even then it still doesn’t happen very often. Even games where every tool is useful(ZoE2) not everything is equal. I would say decoy and gauntlet are “better” than phalanx. I’d say it’s more important to have every option have some kind of value that the others don’t offer.

>upgrade system
It really is a dumb system. Not sure what the point of it was.

currently stuck on the final boss on God Hard (my first God Hard playthrough)

>I always like it when Taunts 'do' something

me too. i like Dante's rose-toss in 4. Nero's air-taunt in 5 is cool too, gives you some extra distance and lift, and you can Exceed it.

>cig

i like it but it's so limited because they don't restock-- also makes me not want to use them (gamer hoarder syndrome). why they did that i will never understand.

Does anybody know if the 60fps console version has the correct damage detection/values? I know on PC at high unlocked framerates it's not correct, which is a shame because I love playing this game at 144hz with a mouse. I know it's not the purist's way to play but it's so responsive and fun! Need to do another playthrough soon...

>Does anybody know if the 60fps console version has the correct damage detection/values?

i couldn't imagine that it does, for the same reason it doesn't on PC

>because I love playing this game at 144hz

that must be absolutely brutal in terms of difficulty. i tried it at 60 fps and getting shot twice would end me.

How recently have you played on PC? I thought the inflated damage dealt to the player was fixed pretty quickly after launch. As far as I know, what's still broken is that certain enemy attacks now deal a lot less damage than they should (the final boss one hit kill for example).

If anyone knows, feel free to correct me!

>How recently have you played on PC?

a week ago

>I thought the inflated damage dealt to the player was fixed pretty quickly after launch.

they said that but it was bullshit. try capping your frames at 30. the difference between even 60 and 30 was extremely noticeable, it makes a huge difference-- felt like i was Piccolo taking off the weighted clothing. you've been playing at 144? good fucking god. for how long?

> damage values
Most of the enemy-values are fixed, but there's still issues especially with the final boss. Certain attacks that should be OHKO now deal very little damage, especially if you stand still. If you're deadset on the original version, play the original. But honestly, you can easily play the newer versions if you want. Enemy agression is also higher due to the higher frame-rate strangely enough, or at least it feels that way. Could be placebo.

> bogey's on GH 5-3
If you want tips let me know, otherwise good luck, it's a fantastic fight but a hardballer for sure. Broke many players.

I'm gonna have to give this another bash, I've done a couple of playthroughs on Hard as my go-to difficulty. It's not overly difficult (M+KB does most of the heavy lifting here) but challenging enough that you still have to think and pay attention. I'm not particularly good at the game so I was under the impression most stuff was fixed, but I'll have to try it at different framerates and see if anything jumps out.

Yeah as you know, GH is generally what gets my recommendation, as Hard breeds a lot of bad habbits and the more you get 'comfortable' on that setting the rougher GH will become imo. Damage-values as noted were mostly fixed, but ironically new ones popped up.

Since so many things are tied to FPS, like how long a bullet is inside you (yes) defining the damage, we'll never get a fully function 31+FPS version I fear.

Played some of it on Ps3, before restarting on pc years later. Now that I'm prioritising action games in the backlog, I came back to it. But I'm having trouble, playing it more like a tps than how it should be played. I keep switching between kb/m and controller as well, as some kb controls aren't adding up for me.

Maybe I'll hug cover for my 1st playthrough, then play it properly the 2nd round. I wish it only put me in a critical state when I was critical. I usually have plenty of health left when the emergency slow-mo kicks in. I understand weapon upgrades are useless below the final one, so I switch them often. Can't give up the laser, though.

I actually think Vanquish would've sold better if the 1st playthrough was a power fantasy. Like the 1st half of Crysis is pretty easy. You're not invincible, but you're an apex predator. Then introduce the difficulty for those who stick around. I know experts will call the 1st playthrough easy, but I'd kill for a Gears game with the Vanquish slide. I'd love a Star Wars game with MGR's blade mode too.

Then again, I also understand that a power fantasy undermines the core gameplay, as you're supposed to achieve that fantasy by working hard and not relying on bad habits.

I'd highly recommend playing with a Controller if possible, since the game was built that way. The PC version is an afterthought that came to life half a decade later.

> weapon upgrades
More training wheels for beginning players, as the highest difficulty doesn't have them.

> hug for cover 1st round, play for real second time
Vanquish is a game of learning and getting comfortable. It's a lot more enjoyable if you see it like an arcade experience where everytime you play it you get a bit better or understand a fight that little bit smoother.

> easy or hard
If you want the power fantasy, there's a wide selection of Easy modes AFAIK. Normal is quite timid, Hard isn't that big a jump if you've finished Normal. God Hard though. Oh boy.

Yeah, I heard your comments on God hard. It's really telling when the hardest difficulty doesn't have an achievement or trophy.

>Black Adam

don't be intimidated by God Hard or by this game in general, you just need to know how to play. like Royta said, a mouse is easy mode, don't use that. your problem is that you are fundamentally playing the game wrong.

first off, if you're running this at 60 fps: don't. cap your shit to 30.

but yeah, i know that you don't know how to play, because you're having trouble with the game even on Easy or Normal, whatever it is you're playing, and your comments of "Maybe I'll hug cover for my 1st playthrough, then play it properly the 2nd round" and "But I'm having trouble, playing it more like a tps than how it should be played"

you got memed into the ultimate damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't noob trap of this game by thinking that high-level play is not using cover, and therefore either trying to avoid cover improperly and failing, or using cover improperly and failing. not a good place to be and i know what that's like, i got memed too. i remember when i played this game when it first came out, the narrative back then was all about how this "ain't your granny's cover shooter" and that you're supposed to be just out in the open all the time, etc, and that fucked me up into playing it wrong at first.

and that's apparently still the narrative and that's what has pigeonholed you as well. no, this certainly isn't your "granny's cover shooter", but that doesn't mean that cover isn't important in this game, it's very important, you are supposed to use it. it's not like in Max Payne 3 where when you get on a roll and/or good enough you don't have to use cover.

in Vanquish, yes, the better you get, the more you can push yourself out in the open, the more aggressive you can be, the more you can not rely on cover. but cover will always be relevant/important, and for right now you will be heavily relying on it. BUT, at the same time-- and i don't know if you played Max Payne 3, it's also one of the best TPS's out there, i'd highly recommend it (on PC using that mod to be able to skip cutscenes)-- but in some ways this game is similar to MP3, because just like in Max Payne 3, if you try to play it like the typical TPS, i.e. use the official cover system in the official way, you will get mercilessly fucked. MP3 is also similar in that it uses slow-mo meter management.

so how you're supposed to do it is if you're in cover, you're generally supposed to NOT press left trigger to pop out and fire over/around that cover. when you want to shoot when you're in cover, dodge out of cover into slow-mo, fire, and then dodge back into cover, and stick back to it again. that's generally how it should be done, unless you're pushing forward, but even then, you should probably be pushing forward to new cover in between your 'turn' (i.e. your meter or health is getting low). think in terms of 'turns'-- once your turn is over, you should probably end your turn by getting into cover. if you're low on health or meter? if you're new/unskilled, you should definitely get back into cover.

there's plenty of other stuff you'll learn how to implement like leaping over cover and slow-moing in the air, but that's stuff you'll learn in due time, you need to get the basics down first. as far as pushing goes, again, the better you get, the more you'll be able to push and be aggressive to enemies out in the field.

your first priority should always be to take out the enemies that fire hit-scan weapons first (and you'll know the exceptions when they occur), like the red jobberbots (headshots kill them quickly). this is paramount; i call them jobbers but they're not at all, they're dangerous as fuck. those are the only enemy types that pelt you constantly and prevent you from being freely out in the open. those are the only projectiles that you cannot dodge, you can only slow your health from getting whittled down by them. how do you slow it?



through this. these are necessities that you need to implement into your movement/gameplay and always use to slow your health being drained by hit-scan/to be aggressive in the battlefield. you don't need to learn all of those right away, not all of those are the basic necessities, but the dodge, boost, etc. shit that give you extra iframes, techniques like dodging left-and-right (throws off enemy tracking), and so on? that stuff is fundamental/necessary, there is no opting out of it. just walking around or standing or basic-boosting in the open while getting hit-scanned is going to get you fucked up real quick as you've found out, you need to constantly be on the move in a smart way and using that tech.

once you take hit-scan enemies out, you can be out in the field openly without constantly moving like this, and then you use those sort of movements/tech to dodge specific things. but first you need to implement that movement/tech into your gameplay, and then you need to learn how to move in general. point is, you cannot move like a chump in this game. once you get that down, the next step is to learn how to use your meter. it's like stamina management in a Souls game-- you know how you're supposed to not just hold down block, but to let it go in between enemy attacks, to let go of attacking yourself to get it back, etc. all to manage and milk that meter back? same sorta shit here, you gotta learn how to constantly manage and milk those meter tits, like letting up on the boost and slow-mo, and you need to learn how to use it in general; how to pick your spots for slow-mo, how to use it enough but not too much, etc. and the better you get the harder you'll be able to push your meter.

i guarantee you that this game will click for you and you'll be a badass in no time, you just needed to be set on the right path.

Just going to jump in and play devil's advocate here and say I found m/kb a lot more fun even if it isn't the originally intended or most challenging way to play. The game is great either way so just pick whatever takes your fancy. You could always learn the mechanics on m/kb and then if you want to take on the "true" challenge swap to controller. I'm sure you'll enjoy it enough to do a playthrough with each and see which you prefer!

>John_T_Smith

I heard ya, buddy. Just didn't get round to responding sooner.

Capping to 30 on a pc just feels wrong, though. Not that I won't try it, but most people would cut down graphics quality before going after framerate. I remember 2 games blowing me away on Ps3 graphically, Castlevania and Vanquish, but both ran like dogshit. So taking this gorgeous game and capping it feels like a step back.

I read in this thread about the bullets sticking in your body for longer at 60, it reminded me of the re2r knife doing more damage at higher fps.

I saw that guide a while ago, but forgot most of it. As for rolling out of cover rather than playing peekaboo, it seems like a minor difference on the surface. But I'm sure it'll pay dividends later.

I wanted to finish MP1 and 2 before starting 3, so I'll get round to it eventually. As for the thumbnail, I have no comment.

>I heard ya, buddy. Just didn't get round to responding sooner.

no problem bro, take your time

>Capping to 30 on a pc just feels wrong, though.

i'm certainly not defending it-- it's fucked-- but ya just gotta do it. this is the unfortunate reality we have to live in and will continue to live in until developers stop tethering their shit to framerate. it's brutal. this is the worst example of it (that and the original PC version of Dark Souls which can only run at 30 fps, unless i get the remastered version but fuck having to re-buy a game that hasn't gone on sale in almost 3 years), but so many games can't be played in 120 fps; Transformers Devastation, Bayonetta, DMC 3, MGR, Elden Ring and the rest of the Souls games. only action games i know of that can run at 120 is DMC 4 and 5.

>but most people would cut down graphics quality before going after framerate.

that's not the issue here though. you go into emergency slow-mo or die after getting hit by 2 bullets. this is not a "no-hit run" type of game, you need some wiggle room for getting hit to play the game properly and the higher framerate fucks up the perfectly balanced wiggle room. it's trash, don't do it man. 60 frames isn't worth fucking up the gameplay.

>both ran like dogshit

at least you get a locked 30 frames here (and as we all know, human eyes can't see higher than 24 frames anyway), and if your rig is powerful enough you can run it at 4k. even though as you note you'd optimally want framerate over graphics, it's a bit of a change of pace running shit at max settings 4k. sometimes i have to use 1080p to run games at 120 fps like DMC 5, or a game like Elden Ring i have to use 1080p to get 60 at max settings.

>it seems like a minor difference on the surface. But I'm sure it'll pay dividends later.

oh trust me, it's completely different. this game is just like Max Payne 3 in that regard; you can dodge out of cover, but aiming from cover (unless blind-firing in MP3) when there's enemies shooting is rolling the "will i see a game over screen instantly" dice and the odds are terrible. both of these games are designed to where you need to be on the move and/or using slow-mo, standing still without slow-mo is the quickest way to lose and cover doesn't change that if you're poking your upper body out of it because in both of these games enemy aim is accurate and you don't have a lot of health.

>As for the thumbnail, I have no comment.

oh my avatar? lmao, yeah sorry to intrude upon your namesake but i had to do it because i just got Elden Ring a few days ago and i'm having a revelatory experience with it and just decreed it game of the year (refer to: the Elden Ring thread for details if you've played it or don't mind a little spoilers). i'll eventually change it back to my boy Jackie.

>m/kb

Using both, I'm actually preferring kb+m, just for the remapping. Yeah you can remap in Steam big picture, but that won't change prompts. Still tweaking the controller for optimum speed when aiming in slow mo, and I would change melee to X if I could. What I really need is a 3rd trigger for boosting.

I tried swapping boost and roll on the kb, but I think boost works well on shift, the traditional sprint key. The problem is using one when you need the other, but I guess muscle memory will take care of it.

As for more damage, it's hard to tell. I play differently now, closer to what's recommended in the thread. I didn't do any objective research, but I do know that at 60fps, a Romanov energy ball put me in critical, while at 30 it kills me outright. But I suppose the proof's been done before me, so I'll continue.

>remapping

i'd recommend default controls (type A) for controller

>What I really need is a 3rd trigger for boosting

nahh you don't need that, you'll get used to it, the controls are perfect

>60fps, a Romanov energy ball put me in critical, while at 30 it kills me outright

yeah for certain things higher fps makes it so that you'll take less damage than you should

>As for more damage, it's hard to tell

really? i played on 60 frames for a while, and when i switched it to 30 i immediately noticed the difference, it was very blatant. i even made the observation while i was on 60 before i knew about this that it was crazy how little wiggle room i have, and then when i found out and switched over i was like ah okay that makes sense.

actually, i know why you're having trouble telling the difference-- i was playing on God Hard. GH is very delicately balanced and 60 fps throws that off completely, the difference is obviously gonna be a lot more subtle on lower difficulties because you have so much health but it's a hell of a lot more noticeable on GH when it's the difference between having wiggle room versus having none.

put on God Hard, pick a certain point in a stage that has hit-scan bots on it, and stand out in the open and be amazed at how long (short) it takes for the hit-scan pellets to put you in critical health and give you a game over screen, get a feel for it, and then switch it to 30. guarantee you won't even need a timer. and maybe if you timed it and counted the seconds between the two without context it wouldn't seem like a significant difference but when you actually play on God Hard, the seconds might as well be years because you already get to critical health or totally depleted so quickly that 60 frames makes it so that you can barely get hit at all which makes all the difference in the world.

so i'd recommend even for now on lower difficulties to put it on 30 because you don't wanna get used to playing on 60 and then have to make the switch when you bump it up to God Hard later on.

>I play differently now, closer to what's recommended in the thread.

good shit, i bet you're already tearing it up a lot better. what difficulty are you playing on right now?