Vanquish: General discussion

What do u think of how melee moves insta deplete ARS gauge usually upon enemy contact?

it seems too punishing n wasted potential when u can use hg summersault to juggle romanovs(any other mobs able to do that with?) and other instances, tho I can see how it could be op with proper use but they r fairly balanced n require close range n skill to use well.

I love to use them a lot but it's too risky at times I'm only decent but I can get away with them, I love how they reused god hand melee moves but different uses, rad as shit stuff.

PC version could be hacked for that n be able to use unlocked ARS gauge from bogeyx2 final boss(bit like how god hand pc has hack for double god hand gene among others)
I think unlocked ARS should have been an unlock for beating it on at least god hard like Dmc super costumes for beating dmd, more incentive that way.

I think the vanquish official guide has info on a cut melee suit(pure god hand)n other suits, wonder why they made melee so nurfed with gauge?

Upgrades seem harsh to take away 1 lvl when u die, i usually hoard weapon drops n upgrades for my favoured guns(shotgun, ar, used to be hg n I using Im using that more now to use as a ar replacement at times. I used to be able to hit checkpoint just before I died but I off the mark this time.(checked tactics page n noted the title screen option so I'll do that instead)

love the upgraded gun versions n their designs too its a sucks theirs no ng+ for that.

Some mob combinations n uses r lacking;no double unknown/crystal viper, u only fight crystal viper twice in main game at least on hard. Argus was reused enough I'm fine with them.

Fuck I'd love a PS4 port. It might if it does well enough, they going all out with pc so it could happen.

Mikami has gone on record stating that the full overheat was a last minute call as melee was simply overpowered otherwise and he wanted it to be this high-risk high-reward move; which I understand.
There were indeed multiple suits planned and even a dog-companion (who was later reused in Metal Gear Rising as Bladewolf), but it was all scrapped as he wanted a focused experience. No menus. No gear. Just you and your skill. I prefer it the way it is for a simple reason: otherwise it wouldn't have been what it is today. In the hands of a master you can still melee a lot by either exploiting hitboxes (by hitting certain parts you'll either get a head-shot melee for massive damage (around 40% of a Bogey on God Hard) or not overheat entirely (mostly against the Buzzard)).

Example of the Buzzard fight (near the start):



You can still juggle enemies, a whiffed 'flashkick' will launch enemies and allow you to go all out with juggles. But that's not what the game is about. The game is one about positioning, radar-usage, smartly timed melee punishes, pressure play and most importantly: meter management.

There are only a very very very few things I would like to see differently. Very few.

• Have the option to disable AUTO-ARS. When you enter critical health you automatically dump all your meter for some slowdown-time to save your ass. It's fun on Hard or lower, but on God Hard it drains so fast it's usually over before you even recover from the hitstun. Just have it disabled on God Hard by default would be fine.
  
• Give all melee moves a purpose. Balancing is really bad right now. Boost-melee is king. Backhand is extremely situational and the parry barely works. Fist of the Northstar is extremely situational and has tracking issues. The uppercut is pointless as it lacks the ARS followup that Boost and Flip have. Heavy punch and kick are extremely situational. And damage-wise the Boost-melee always wins, and it even allows ARS afterwards. I feel that some moves should have had more unique properties, like boost-melee dealing the least damage but Heavy Punch being really strong while Backhand gave you damage absorbtion or something.
  
• Skip the credits
  
• Don't allow "Return to Titlescreen" to avoid death counts. The leaderboards are trash because of this.
  

Gabriel wrote:Upgrades seem harsh to take away 1 lvl when u die, i usually hoard weapon drops n upgrades for my favoured guns(shotgun, ar, used to be hg n I using Im using that more now to use as a ar replacement at times. I used to be able to hit checkpoint just before I died but I off the mark this time.(checked tactics page n noted the title screen option so I'll do that instead)

Should be noted that upgrades were a last minute addition too. The game was originally as shown in God Hard difficulty, but was scaled down on lower settings for the casual audience. God Hard is the way the game was meant to be played and contains no upgrades.

Gabriel wrote:Some mob combinations n uses r lacking;no double unknown/crystal viper, u only fight crystal viper twice in main game at least on hard. Argus was reused enough I'm fine with them.

Agreed, I really miss this too. The Challenge Maps offer some more variety but even on God Hard this is lacking. Would've loved to see a Viper/Bogey fight or two tanks with a Bogey as support (two slow foes with one fast one).

Gabriel wrote:Fuck I'd love a PS4 port. Hope it does, if it does well enough.

Despite being a great port and the definitive version, the PC version flopped HARD. It sold less than 100.000 copies and most users returned it within 24 hours as they beat it or found it too hard/ lacking in content. So at the end of the day I believe they sold around 50.000 copies. That's not a lot.

I've been playing vanquish today n yesterday, bit rusty but I pick games up quickly once I know the controls. Learning some strats from various places, absorbing as much as I reasonably can.

I run with ar, shotgun n a situational weapon that varies. Next run right after I will run hg, LFE n a variable weapon.

I run with a balanced loadout;reliable mid range gun, close range gun n a variable specialist weapon.

I consider LFE a alternate shotgun type, lots of choice so I'll stick with a few at a time n get used to them n how they work together.

Playing challenges now for practice.

The LFE should be seen more as a utility tool. It can be used to push enemies of edges, stunlock them, throw grenades further (throw a grenade and LFE it) and kill smaller enemies in one big shot.

Generally people try to avoid the AR though as it is generally inferiour compared to the Boost Machine Gun and Heavy Machine Gun if you can compensate for their accuracy and knockback a bit.

Enjoy man, it is a great game : ) You ever played it on God Hard or done Challenge 6?

Wtf r pangloss statues from, r they a nod to re4 ganados, god hand enemies(same high pitch voice as shaolin monks;KICKIN YA ASS) or something else, they seem so odd little statue men that swear with silly voices.

R they descendants of Alexander the Great?

A lot of the game references Candide, a classic piece of French literature. Nearly all the names, the themes of the story etc are taken from it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide

"It begins with a young man, Candide, who is living a sheltered life in an Edenic paradise and being indoctrinated with Leibnizian optimism (or simply "optimism") by his mentor, Professor Pangloss". 

The game has some God Hand themes in terms of certain attack animations, but they are less references to God Hand as to the same reference pool that God Hand took inspiration from. Nearly all of God Hands over the top moves and jokes are a reference to material Mikami and his team loved (Mad Max, Fist of the Northstar, Shaolin Fist etc.).

Yeh they love their in jokes. But what's the design for pangloss statue supposed to be? They look like sort of ganados with a stick in the right hand.

Funny how many nods to all sorts r in their games, some deep stuff they get into for such silly action games. All the little details make it so much more. Lots of world building n such. Like bayo Enochian script.

A lot of things are so small we probably don't even notice them, like one animator having a love for beetles and putting them in all kinds of games like Resident Evil 4 and Bayonetta. You'll never see them unless you really look for them, but they are there. It's the same with movies which sometimes contains such subtle and weird nods even the most devout fans miss them. My favorite is in Metal Gear Rising where calling Boris during the Sundowner fight will have him say "Aim Carefully" in the exact same intonation as the Bogey from Vanquish - a well known voiceclip which is the fear of a lot of veteran players as it was the audio-cue for a very dangerous move. Such a minute reference but I love it!

About the statue, there's a big variant to be seen in chapter 3-2 (and Challenge 6). Not sure who or what it is trying to depict.

Just beat crystal viper such a cool enemy yet see so little use n r pretty easy, I get sad when mobs I like don't see enough use, like a 2 crystal vipers since they so easy, would be much harder like that since they more assassin type mob so they can sneak up on u real quick, man look so cool.

Yeah they are really cool to fight. But they get their time to shine in the Challenge Maps don't worry, one of the hardest fights on the disc includes him.

Yeh the beetles mike kob made me aware of that, vanquish even had a beetle but the animator who puts those in wasn't on vanquish so someone did it for them how sweet.

Haha I remember boris bogey nod that's stellar, a lot of love for what they do.

Is that challenge 4 I got stuck on the grassy area one I always die at the crystal viper part. I haven't got challleng 6 yet.

Tried challenge 4 again it's always the last part with romanovs n crystal viper that get me, so little space to move around in that part I try to ration my emp nades for it. Rest I'm good enough at to get by, just gotta use crowd control n prioritize.

I usually take out gorges n other small mobs first then Romanovs.

I use the round 2 Gatling romanov on the hill bit u can't reach to use their big rocket to kill them selves, flame rovs I shoot backpack, others I head shot first to distract other mobs(do beheaded rovs not use chest blast attacks).

It's the crystal viper wave that kills me, should I kill rovs first them viper, they all gang up on me I'm not used to that parts arena.

Blue gorges remind me of ninja mobs in ninja gaiden 2, really dynamic mobs to fight, group fodder type mobs r fun like that.

What r the changes to mobs n bosses on god hard? Movesets?

Dlc weapons uses?

I would have liked to see some bonus unlocks, like a optional unlocked ARS suit for god hard like dmc super costumesm more incentive that way then u could dick around like super costumes to see what can be done in super states.

Ost is good but most is not too memorable or blood pumping, track I always think of is battle on the east deck, love that one.
most others r not super hype like that one n r often played too many times.

Vanquish is kinda like mgr if it where a 3rd person shoot bang, even kinda looks like mgs tech.

God Hard changes quite a lot. I'll try and note it down here:

• Enemy Health: +30% 
  
• Player Damage Taken: +50%
  
• Player's Health Recovery Speed: cut in half
  
• Active AR Mode Energy Consumption: 200% faster
  
• Auto AR Mode Energy Consumption: 400% faster
  
• Rocket Launcher can only be found randomly, no longer appears in containers
  
• Heavy Machine Gun, Boost Machine Gun and Rocket Launcher deal less damage than normal to Burns and the Bogeys.
  
• Upgrades are removed and no longer available.
  
• Fights are different. A lot of Red Gorgies are replaced by their golden variant. Others are replaced by Romanovs. 
  
• Enemies ignore your allies now, you are their main target.
  

This changes a lot as you need to be a lot more smart with how you spend your meter. It will drain insanely fast making you a sitting duck if you're unprepared for it. Some chapters are really difficult under these rules, namely 1-3, 3-2, 4-3, 5-2 and the infamous 5-3. 

I would have liked to see some bonus unlocks, like a optional unlocked ARS suit for god hard like dmc super costumesm more incentive that way then u could dick around like super costumes to see what can be done in super states.

Agreed. I would've loved to see the Unlocked ARS suit as a bonus costume if you beat the game on God Hard, but no such luck. Alas.

Ost is good but most is not too memorable or blood pumping, track I always think of is battle on the east deck, love that one.
most others r not super hype like that one n r often played too many times.

Agreed. I can't even remember the OST as I never have it on, I just play my own music.

On to god hard, let's see how this goes, most likely poorly I need more training.

Any tips for challenge 4 crystal viper part?

Do mobs n bosses have new moves on god hard?

Doing decent, died a lot I stopped at chapter 2 rail train section I think.

Their needed to be a mode between hard n god hard, massive difficulty jump, takes away Upgrades n changes some rules. I need more practice for sure, still failed challenge 4, always the viper part.

Yeah a lot of players agree there should've been a mode in between; but alas. God Hard was made I believe for "the players that think they are good at Vanquish" and to show them they aren't. Once you adjust to the playstyle of God Hard though you'll be automatically pretty good. My first run had nearly 500+ deaths, now I generally have 10-20 deaths with my record being 7.

For the Viper part in challenge 6, focus on the Romanovs first. The first flamers can be killed fast by shooting their tanks on their backs. For the rest use the RPG for quick kills (don't forget to reload cancel). Once it's 1v1 the Viper should be cake.

Vanquish wiki has some interesting things to say about its genres, namely being a hybrid of 3rd person shooters, shmups n beat em ups. It all works well since it's applying different action games together in a way that compliments the core gameplay.

Devils third mixes melee with 3rd person shooter but poorly a lot of the time since it impractical to melee in a gun fight which it mostly is. Shame since it looked rad from early build. Got red of wall running I imagine it would have been a great game but circumstances didn't allow it.

Team ninja have been through a identity crisis for a while now, they haven't really innovated like platinum has, platinum is private so that's a major reason.

The makers of quality action games r all fractured now, small indie teams don't have the knowledge or funds for proper high quality action, but they do try n it's great to see fans make their own games.

I think it's harder to make action games on a budget is due to how much they need funds for how costly they r, since they usually 3D n need lots of animation, programmers n such to even get started.

Designing all those mechanics n mob types,since mobs need to be as carefully considered for a game as the player character. They need to be varied n dynamic enough to be engaging but also predictable for keen players to toy with n experiment with approaches, otherwise it's just warriors/musou mobs which r the most feeble enemies in gaming. U can't get anymore passive than a warriors grunt.

Devil's Third is a great little gem in the rough, but it doesn't hold back at the least which is refreshing. Even Vanquish has 'assists' in that you can for instance slow down time and have a lot of i.frames during certain moves. Devil's Third has none of that. You can't slow down time, you never have any i.frames - it's just you and your wits and skill. 

I'm probably one of the few defenders of the game but you really need to play it to experience it. A lot of the mechanics seem random, but there's a lot of thought put into it. The only thing lacking is that melee is really dangerous to use, but I feel that Itagaki wanted you to play efficient - not stylish. You shoot to kill and if they get close you ram them dead. It's the Ninja Gaiden of the shooter-action hybrid, compared to Vanquish which is the Devil May Cry of the shooter-action hybrid.

Good video btw, never really watched his channel (I heard of it).

I would get devils third first thing with platinum games first thing for wii u when I do.

Devil's Third is good. I played a little and can see what it's doing, but I had a really hard time with the huge WiiU controller. I'm not used to holding something so wide.

That's something I would have to get used to also. Big ole touch pad. iPad with control sticks n buttons pretty much.

Yo I best challenge 4, after all these yrs.

I tried challenge 6 for a bit, not so hard so far, it's a good one, viper is first wave that's cool. Do stunned mobs take more damage?

Viper would be a threat without that prompt, it still is, in groups it actually gets to function how it should, stealth assassin, so they r only invisible I can still hit them. Never seen the other qte they have.

I found that a emp nade can insta kill those whirly bird chopper flying mobs, look like go bots. They cool mob they don't show up in main game much. That tactic reminds me of flying novistadors insta kill with flash nades.

Man how did they make vanquish on 7gen? I genuinely can't tell. Same as dmc4. It runs well too, I'm not a frame lord but I can see n feel it runs decent enough.

Challenges r not so tough, god hard was tho, I'll get back to that today later.

Congratulations man! Good job!

Challenge 6 is more endurance as it throws a lot at you. But it is pretty doable. Even after years of breaks I managed to get it done again last week on my first try: once you know the strategy it's pretty easy.

On framerate, it runs lower than you think. It is generally at a 25fps with some peaks into 30; which is pretty bad compared to the 60 of DMC4. That said it is just really well animated and coded making for a smooth experience. DMC4 though, that's a mystery. Game looks gorgeous even by todays standards and runs at a smooth 60fps - puts other titles to shame.

Mt framework was used for dmc4 so that might explain the graphics, yeh its bizarre when re5 is dodgey 30 odd with same engine.

it's impressive how vanquish doesnt look n feel bad to play, motion blur, particles n screen shake help I take. Tho I imagine it would hurt if one was a frame lord, but gaming PC is long term investment I'll have to save up n look that stuff up.

How long u reckon before consoles won't have fps issues or if consoles die out?
Its hard to be dazzled by what a console can do when PC could yrs ago or more so now. Maybe it will be more retail gaming PC being more common n cheaper due to competition.

consoles tech r outdated so early it's rediculoius graphics keep being pushed on systems that can't handle it. And u have to leave it to Devs to make use of the hardware so the PS4 pro doesn't get much use, not even blood borne has a proper pro patch, so it's a wasted system even tho it can run high fps. Boost mode does help but that's the pro n not the games themselves being patched.

Cod blops3 was variable 40-60 pro version is solid 60.

Engines n actual dev coding r key too, dmc:dmc(dmcboot i say) doesn't look or run as well as dmc4 n that's unreal3.

Do u know what triggers the viper second grab move?

How long u reckon before consoles won't have fps issues or if consoles die out?

Will take a long time since the general audience prefers pretty graphics over a smooth performance. So they made 30 the common rate to squeeze all the beauty possible out of the engines. Thanks to new consoles appearing constantly developers also never can get 'used' to how a system works and thus have to learn over and over again. If the hardware war would lie dormant for one whole generation I can guarantee games would be made a lot faster with pretty graphics and 60fps - always.

I doubt consoles will ever die out thanks to fanbase loyalty and the pick-up-and-play nature of it compared to PC which always has driver issues etc.

Do u know what triggers the viper second grab move?

It is extremely hard to get, you need to be at a certain percentage of health and so does he, getting it to trigger is rare and thus not worth it.

I triggered vipers grab a few times on challenge 6, odd it's a unique qte, viper would be harder with out the running slash qte, odd no other mob has that for a basic attack, they sneaky I get taken off guard by it.

I guess without consoles it would be more retail gaming pc competition for mass consumers. Tho it's easier to bring a ps4 to my dads than a super sexy pc haha.

I'd have to look into it I really want a sexy pc for best possible fps for games, action especially needs it, plus tons of options n mods, just look at vanquish, I'm sure someone will find the data to allow u to use unlocked ARS suit.

God hand pc emulated is super good 60, plus hacks for various stuff like double god hand gene, PS3 version has slowdown when too many particles present, especially some bosses, really makes it hard to react, like elvis butt stomp since he can attack right after n even butt stomp again(I'm hungry hombre)

it's more vanquish I want to dick around with super suit like dmc super costumes just to see what's possible, go nuts with melee combos god hand style.

Could u make a page for treasure games? they got some good ones like dynamite heady, alien soldier, sin & punishment/2 star successor, gunstar heroes and ikaruga among others. even a wario world game for gamecube.

I'll have to buy n play some for a test, have a few emulated.

Hey Roy I saw u left a comment on yovideogames vanquish vids, your royta15 channel, cheeky roy.

So do u watch max then?

Could u make a page for treasure games?

I'm not sure we need a section dedicated to another company. Where does it end? Just make a topic in the other action games section.

sin & punishment/2 star successor

Still have this on N64. Amazing game. I want to get the sequel too.

I won't make another catagory sorry, otherwise the main page will be exploding with content. You can always make a seperate topic in the Other Action / Other games sections.

And yeah I sometimes watch him play. Again, I know he can be a dick at times but his content is very enjoyable. Can't recall making a comment on one of his videos though haha!

Mods
Outside of maybe a color-change, don't bet on it. Games these days are very closed in by code making it nearly impossible to mod. Metal Gear Rising barely had any mods outside of 'change color of costume'. So don't spend 1000,- just for that ;p

No page that's fine, ah sucks no mods, really big miss with no unlocks for at least god hard I think u earned it at that point, just a little ballerina dress for sam n maybe a bunny costume for burns. Maybe bogey could have a top hat n poncho.

I can live with it id be happy enough with super Pc version.

The lack of unlockables is indeed bizarre, especially considering it's a Mikami title which generally has a ton of unlockables and secrets - yet this one doesn't.
How's Challenge 6 and God Hard going?

Not beaten challenge 6 but I can see what I have to do, god hard I'll get back to today.

was playing shadow warrior ps4, decent so far guns feel limp but it's more about your katana magic powers, fun so far. I was gonna buy 2 but it has needless rpg rng loot shite n a procedurally generated open world.

Which is just farther away from the original 3D realms shadow warrior, fps games used to have good lvl design with tons of smart hidden secrets about.

A painful review of Vanquish: https://www.destructoid.com/review-vanquish-186214.phtml

Makes it even more motivation for me to finish my own really fast and show the world how great this game is.

And I remember Shadow Warrior, at least the original which I played a lot as a kid. "Who wants some Wang???" hahahaha!

but after five minutes of gameplay, in which you get to see practically everything that the game has to offer,



Not reading past there. This guy is an idiot. Sometimes I just sit back and wonder at comments like this, "You CAN'T actually be that stupid. You just can't".

Makes it even more motivation for me to finish my own really fast and show the world how great this game is.

Do it.

Yeh Jim can be alright n I do respect him for some stuff but that review undoes him, same as ign god hand review it's the player not the game that's the issue.

These types of complaints reflect the players own skill or lack thereof at the game, like any craft it takes actually effort n time to master them, your only as good as your training, practice makes habit.

Excellence is not an art it's pure habit, we r what we repeatelty do, or some such shit I don't know whatever haha.

These games don't do well for quick worded n edited reviews, they need to be as well crafted n appreciative as the game itself.

Fuck scores anyway it's a shallow mass consumer cop out since most humans r lazy n conformist by their nature, they won't bother to read n watch the reviews when their r scores n bullet points summing up said reviews. so why even make a review might as well just slap a number on some power point notes down for dem kidz.

Take your time with your articles we can wait haha.

That review is, in my eyes, what's wrong with gaming-journalism. A game can't be reviewed in a day or a week - maybe not even a year. It requires thought, hindsight and a large perspective. Some games that might seem shallow could hide a lot of depth on repeat playthroughs.

And don't worry, I take my time with my writing :)

It has become a general rule that all you need is an hour tops with a game to decide its quality.

Vanquish is even a lot more streamlined than god hand n ninja gaiden, those familiar with cover shooters should be able to comprehend the mechanics at hand.
it's one of the least complex to master which should make it easier for casuals n newbs. Like a transitional game between cover shooters to action games. I've gotten the advanced stuff down with little time with my recent run this yr, I didn't even know about reload cancelling n some other tricks, but I suppose I already have an action game understanding. Maybe because I just like to dick around n have fun with games.

Reviews can be so needlessly bitter, why the hate Jim it didn't rape your family man!

oddly enough he even defended dmcboot, which is fine because it's a decent game with some tech for sure, but he defended the bosses, which r awful. even vergin since Vergil is already better version of same boss, same as credo.

The idea of a mechanically rich player driven action game is so unheard of in the mainstream that souls have become the new standard for action games, which r on the simpler end of complexity, which is by no means bad but after 5 of them they haven't really innovated on what they had, n now everything has a stamina bar n rpg stuff.

Poor team ninja n platinum.

I suppose developers might as well abide by that sentiment as well, which many r since that's how we get cinematic 'games'. As in how why bother making mechanics when most r not gonna go beyond the surface.

Sony is sending mixed signals, they produced blood borne but also order 1886 n now god of child care.

Dem kidz is a cultural thing I guess, which is baffling since many of these reviewers r at least 20 or older, many should have grown up with 4-5-6th gen systems but they act liked they never played them, like the games radar abysmal crash remakes review. They said it was a rogue like of all things, Jesus.

Will RnR on the rest later. But working on the Vanquish-article now - it's really intimidating to write about a game so dear to me Really want to do it justice.

Here's the sketch: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16pAXdnzLMyOqNLH7GEhZrflrMuDcIvJTpUGaELBdRQk/edit?usp=sharing

So far so good, obvious spelling errors aside u explain mechanics well, I'll need to read in depth tonight I'm bit tired lately.

Maybe some gifs for relevant visuals should help.

I'll need to read it properly did u mention it's relation to pno3 n how it adapts run n gun type shooters like alien soldier n sin & punishment n bullet hells shooters into its design?

Vanquish is odd since it is the evolution of run n guns as well as having beat em up elements.

It's really nice to just read about game mechanics for once not story bilge. I was stoked when I found your azel article by chance. I love boss analysis, a great first example.

Maybe an article on the origins of action games, that would be very educational since it would bring closure to what action games evolved from. Beat um ups n various shooters(shmup, run n guns etc) among other arcade type games namely, fighting games also have a relation since they grew up together.

It's seldom discussed where action games came from. An article on what defines action games I guess that could be same article or another.

I just found out Sam can kick barrels, same kick as item crates.

I think I found that barrel kick before, I stopped god hard at the kreon chapter part that over heats u.

God hard is not for me, it's too punishing for more skill lvl, I need more leeway to dick around ya know.
It's odd its fine in places then others it's a massacre. I play for a decent challenge but not for ultimate test, hardest modes r too demanding of my skill lvl.

1hit kill modes r way too much for me, no back n forth that way, dead or alive.

I'll get god hard done soon enough it's only tough in places I not advanced enough to really deal with many situations. Guess I need to be more aggressive. Learn Mob spawns n such. I can see what I have to do I need to execute it n not be so passive. Learn areas n reliable cover n tactics. It does refill jades on deaths so that's nice, full ammo too.