Combat mechanics

It's funny that you got Bayonetta free with a magazine - I got it free with Vanquish! I'm not sure if every retailer did it but it was a free bonus with Vanquish pre-orders in the UK. That's how poorly they sold...they had to give their old games away for free to convince people to get the new ones. Criminal for titles of that quality.

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> played further
After derping around a bit more with exploration and combat I decided I'd rather be playing B1 or B2 (or just NGII) and sold my copy. The game is still worth a bit and I don't see myself touching this one again.

Even though there was a brief period where I thought this game would be great, I ended up getting rid of it too. Everything is so samey feeling for how wacky it all is, and I officially cannot do the Platinum/Kamiya bullshit anymore. I have too much to do, too little free time, and no patience. And that ending was just…no.

It’s kind of funny that we’re at the point where action RPGs are better action games than actual action games in some ways. Nioh, SoP, Souls, etc are way more gamey than this is, as those almost never interrupt core gameplay to make you do something mind numbing. Even FF7R let you just go through rooms of fights more than this does.

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I think the downside is more, and that's one I'm struggling with a lot: game-time. I can dive into a game that's "okay" in my eyes, or I can finally dedicate some towards Bayonetta 1, Evil Within, MGS3, MGS2, or pick up NGB or NGII again, or finally play Okami (shut up Birdman), pick up Chaos Legion (what did I just say Birdman), play BujingaiBlade, pick up Rygar, try out ... etc. you get my point.

Of course that argument kinda goes out the window if I just spam Tekken7 the whole week...but you get my drift.

> talking alone
By all means post notes, I always love reading and talking about it, just because I don't play it doesn't mean I'm out.

Bayonetta 1, to me, is so much better. B3 offers me nothing.

I'm wary of selling it though. Will hold on to it for a while.

>Okami
>Chaos Legion
*licks lips*

I got an ISO of NG Black running on my ancient Xbox original. How this thing is still running is a mystery. I can see rust all over the fan and it chugs hard.

@John_T_Smith Don't worry, I'm still playing!

I can't really argue against anybody's criticisms of the game, but I enjoy the core loop so much that I'm willing to look past a lot of it's faults.

I'm still just derping around on Normal difficulty for now trying out all the different weapons on different stages. I'm doing the Witch Trials to farm for the Platinum Ticket. WT1 was fun but 2 is a pain. The camera in some of these fights is pretty bad and you can't see shit. Getting the Pure Plat ranks on some of the fights must be so frustrating. I'm enjoying the Abracadabra weapon at the moment, it's nice to have a ranged alternative to CMW. Gonna give Simoon a try next.

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>does anyone else here have this issue with Bayo 1?
I feel the complete opposite. B3 offers me nothing.

>despise DMC3
May I ask why?

>DMC3
Despite it being so popular (and I cannot speak for John here), DMC3 is a hard game to get into for NG players, so that may be the case (not sure if John comes from that angle). When DMCHDtrilogy hit the shelves, a lot of NG players tried to make the jump, myself among them, and it made for quite...and interesting state of affairs. A lot of players bounced hard on the playstyle and controls, strangely finding more sollace in DMC1 instead or even DMC4 which is a bit more traditional action from the outset. So I can understand it, since I've been in the situation too. That said, I've of course 'seen the light' in that matter haha but it's a surprisingly hard game to get into unless you started with it early on, at least that's my experience.

> mid-life crisis
And we're not even halfway there..

> bayo1
Replaying it currently, my main gripes in regard to the bayo3 comparison is in a few places. The first being the weapons, which while bayo1 has similar movesets, they all have practical differences. Whip is your grapple, durga lays bombs, shotgun staggers, sword has wider range - it's very minor, but they ironically felt more unique than the plethora of weapons in b3 due to me at least wanting to use them in specific situations.

The second one, and this has been talked about to death, is witch-time. It being an optional and (eventually) removed mechanic in B1 ensures that the game isn't designed around it, it's more a bonus. In b2 and b3 it's the core and essential, and you feel that in the combat.

> b1 doesn't feel good
I do feel it's a horrible game, as a game. Bayonetta 2 does a far better job in terms of locations, variation, level design etc. while Bayonetta 1 can really feel like a mess of a game at times.

> no game is perfect
That's the truth! (except RE4)

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Don't get me wrong, B3 has a good combat system. It just doesn't do anything interesting for me. The giant demons look cool and the scale and all that but it's just a shiny coat.

>not liking DMC3 for whatever reason
I do get that. There are some games that even though I totally respect their combat systems but they just don't gel with me somehow. It's fine.

>B1 feeling of impact
This is one of those weird things that is different for everyone. To me, B3 doesn't feel like my attack are connecting. Like hitting with a piece of paper.

It's like how some people experience time differently. Like for some it seems to fly while others, a minute can seem like an hour even under the same conditions.

Birdman, you mentioned earlier that you sold Astral Chain but eventually picked it up again. did you ever end up changing your mind on it?

> To me, B3 doesn't feel like my attack are connecting. Like hitting with a piece of paper.

really? wow. yeah that's exactly how i feel about Bayo 1. that was a good way of putting it.

>This is one of those weird things that is different for everyone.

yeah that's very interesting to me

> DMC Enemies
This is probably the main thing that stops me replaying the series as much as I'd ideally like to. You get loads of cool mechanics and toys to play with, which I love, but then most of the enemies are either dull, or worse, annoying. Not to accuse him of ruining DMC for me, but Raeng has mentioned a few times about "lumbering hitbox" syndrome and I can't un-feel it now there are just too many enemies that you can't really interact with other than hitting them until their HP reaches 0. For all it's faults, at least in the Bayo series you can do things like launch/freeze/stun big enemies.

>B1 vs B3
I had a quick go of B1 last night, started up a new save on the Switch version (partially for the purpose of unlocking Scarborough Fair in B3) and the first thing I noticed was that Bayo's movement is less refined in the first game. I think some of the alternate dodge animations that they added in B2 (like the knee slide) help make moving between enemies a bit less rigid. I'm gonna stick at it and play some more B1 tonight so I can remind myself of the old weapon select (hands/feet) system. I know a big complaint in B3 was that they got rid of it, but I honestly hadn't missed it so far. Maybe that will change. The B3 weapons are growing on me, but I want to try out more of the B1 ones before comparing them.

I honestly like the Slave mechanics in B3, they've grown on me too. Your damage output without them is a bit poor (getting Platinum rank times is hard IMO) but I do like that they have some different practical uses I hadn't picked up on earlier (Madama Butterfly has fast combos, Phantom can "stun", flying demons are hard to enrage if you keep them at a distance, the train is just fun as hell IMO). The only thing I really dislike about them is the ability of one that reveals the invisible enemies - such a crap gimmick. Should have been scrapped, adds nothing of value to the gameplay IMO.

> DMC3 notes
Very understandable points. I do enjoy DMC3's enemies for the most part, except those angels. Enigma's are a nightmare, but you can at least do some cool things with them i.e. break their projectiles using moves like 'freeze, icestorm' and Angi's moveset, or just spamming Nevan. The rest are mostly just jugglefood or stationary enemies that can be JC'd for sure. It's no DMC1 and you can see the roots springing up for the enemy issues in DMC4 and 5.

Personally I do really like the style/weapon system of DMC3 in how it rewards experimentation and also made them all feel more unique, you really had to choose a kit and could do some pretty cool wins in the planningphase because of it. Never liked that they just fused it all together in later entries (or re-releases) tbh. I know style-switching is like the holygrail these days, but I really prefered the old way.

Surprised to hear you found it so easy though, most people bounce of off its high difficulty, especially DMD which can be quite brutal.

> NG, buy a console
The Series S is quite affordable, and a fantastic system when paired with a cheap-gamepass. Also gives access to Halo which is a fantastic series. Can understand though. You can buy the Master Collection on PS4/PC. They are fantastic, just that the originals are way superior. Emulation is very shoddy with the series afaik, though that might've changed since last I looked it up.

> NG difficulty
NG is built to be replayed on a higher setting, so first runs are more learning the ropes. NGII and NG3 are especially easy on their starting settings, especially Sigma 2.

> ayane
She has some busted tools, don't worry, if you ever play the game again you'll find them.

> combat focus on delimbs etc.
That's more for the casuals, though it can be trap for sure. You can get by, especially in NG3re, with dodging around and doing SoB on reaction, but you'll be robbing yourself of a superior experience. There's a lot more to it (thankfully).

> delimb gets harder
Not necessarily, especially in NGII where you have a ton of 100% delimb moves and strats for it. It's more about the pressureplay.

Ironically I think that DMC3 enemies are the best in the series, but it's not because they are particularly good. They at least try to kill you and are resilient. In DMC1 they die too quickly and in 4 and 5 they just stand there.
The enemies in 3 aren't that interesting but you can have some cool interactions with some of them, and I don't find the gimmicks too bad (except for the Soul Eaters). The bosses in general are better on average.
It sucks that you can't equip too much at once but the game is balanced decently well around it and Dante's moves are almost all useful in some situations (in stark contrast with 4 and 5 where it feels like half of your moves are either useless or too situational).
Also I'm too surprised that you find the game too easy, unless you didn't make it to DMD. Enemies entering DT really change the way you have to approach the encounters and it pretty much puts a stop to the easiest strat, which is to isolate and kill enemies one by one. But even if you didn't play DMD the game is harder than DMC5 when you compare the individual difficulties.

>emulating NG1 and 2
You can emulate 2 with better performance than a 360 if you have a decent GPU (something like a 1660 is enough to get 60 FPS 95% of the time). There are some fixes that need to be applied but that isn't hard to do. NG1 on Xemu isn't that great. Lots of slowdowns even at a low resolution. I still completed it 3 times, so it's far from unplayable but not ideal.

>Birdman, you mentioned earlier that you sold Astral Chain but eventually picked it up again. did you ever end up changing your mind on it?
Yeah. I like it way more than I did when I first bought it. Still hate all the non-combat stuff.

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> DMC3 enemies
It's a bit at odds with itself, and I also have that with its ranking system. The game got popularized by its combo-crowd, but its mechanics, enemies and even ranking system are heavily in favour of optimized play (perhaps a remnant of DMC1's design). As noted Enigmas are great in how you can slaughter them and get points off of them by nuking their arrows offensively, but if you want to style on something, they suck since you can barely juggle them and they can really put a damper in your SS-rank run since they will always sneak a hit in.

> gimped moveset outside of styles
I do disagree on this part, Dante's kit is pretty good even at the basic level thanks to enemy step, a good roll and i.frame jump. I like to more see it that every style compliments a style you're lacking in, than one you prefer. Trickster makes it easier to stay mobile if you're struggling with the basic tools, while Swordmaster gives you better offensive tools if you're having trouble killing things, idem with Gunslinger. Regular guns are already great (Spiral is a beast), but some of its attacks just make it shine. It's also great for replay value imo. I once made a 'randomizer' script in PhP (long gone now) that would churn out a weapon+style combination and a mission to play which was really fun.

> quicksilver/dopple
Quicksilver is pretty busted if going for topranks, since it allows for so much more agression on your part. Also gives DT a good usage outside of DT-explode. Doppleganger is fun for co-op or crazy combos. It's the most overpowered one but so much untapped potential since it's potency is directly tied to play knowledge and expertice.

> Sigma 1 v Black
Unless you're a veteran - you won't notice them. The dodgeroll is different, which makes transitioning between the two games a bit annoying, and you can fire arrows in the sky in Sigma which makes some fights easier if you abuse it (enemy AI isn't built around Ryu jumpshooting explosive arrows). You can easily start with this version. As a personal note I started with Sigma 2 and completed it 20+ times and despite now disliking it compared to NGII, there is no *bad* NG game (well, maybe vanilla 3).

> master collection for Razor
To note, Xbox allows you to buy/play the original version of Razor's Edge through BC, which has more content (customizable ninja + online co-op) if that suits your fancy. They run at the same pace. BC doesn't have 4k though (who cares).

I don't know your personal situation or financial situation, but if you have the disposable income, I would recommend buy a cheap Series S and just going ham with it. They're worth it.

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Yeah regarding DMC3, you have to take into account that it's a totally differently designed game. People gravitated towards it for its high pace gameplay and combo-system, but the 'style' community generally consisted of doing one or two of the game's fights ad naseum for a reason. It's far more enjoyable as a full game if you play like a murder machine with the occasional taunt and styling - it ranks you on time and efficiency for a reason.

DMC4 didn't have much on offer at all, so the style-community completely took that one over which set the baseline for DMC5.

> barebones
It's more using what you need. For example, against the LeviathanCore, I use SwordMaster so I can be safe using Nevan+Agni at the top for high damage output. Othertimes I just bring RoyalGuard with Cerberus so I can use the 120% ice-damage bonus on his left (I think it was left) heart while using RG for damage against the core. It's more about experimentation with tools and planning ahead. I agree it's a bad fit for DMC looking back, but it worked at the time.

You do have a Switch I assume (since you play B3) so you can try that version, since it has style/weapon switching.

> Personally I do really like the style/weapon system of DMC3 in how it rewards experimentation and also made them all feel more unique, you really had to choose a kit and could do some pretty cool wins in the planningphase because of it. Never liked that they just fused it all together in later entries (or re-releases) tbh. I know style-switching is like the holygrail these days, but I really prefered the old way.

It doesn't reward experimentation at all. In fact it does the opposite. Limiting weapons and styles was a bad idea. On the fly weapon & style switching was a good idea and should have been present from the beginning. You don't have to use every weapon or style if that's what you want in 4 & 5.

If you have all the options there's going to be 'best' setups, since you just have every tool, now you kinda have to make decisions beforehand, which is interesting. Maybe the term is more 'preperation' or whatnot, but that's semantics.

> Limiting weapons and styles was a bad idea
To each their own, imo it's what 'ruined' DMC if you ask me (meaning, made the combat worse in later entries). Too many tools that are haphazardly intermixed without much thought and not enough variation in end-results to set them apart enough.

I kinda like the limitations in place, since it forces you to squeeze everything out of your arsenal even if you don't have equipped the best weapon for the situation. It creates some interesting scenarios where it forces you out of your comfort zone, but I also understand that style and weapon switching could be more rewarding. Fortunately there are mods for that.

>If you have all the options there's going to be 'best' setups, since you just have every tool

It's other way around. All options being available means more experimentation. 3 is more likely to have best setup since it lacks the options to experiment on the spot. Dante's most intersting combination is his DMC1 arsenal which in later games means sword,gauntlet,pistols, shotgun & swordmaster style. By allowing on the fly switching player is more likely to use situational attacks or weapons.

> now you kinda have to make decisions beforehand, which is interesting. Maybe the term is more 'preperation' or whatnot, but that's semantics.

Those decisions don't make for interesting gameplay. It's not a resource based game where ammo is scarce or anything like that. Its a game based on relexes. 3 also doesn't have the meter management of the first game so it's just a case of making gameplay boring or not.

>Too many tools that are haphazardly intermixed without much thought and not enough variation in end-results to set them apart enough.

what do you mean? Any examples?

> haphazardly intermixed
In DMC3 it makes sense for every (or nearly) every weapon to have it's unique stinger-attack, in DMC5 far less so since you can always swap to Rebellion on demand for Stinger. You can argue that some have different values/range, but these are to minor if you consider a better more unique move could've taken its place.

My biggest gripe with the style-switching system is that it does nothing but add slight finger gymnastics to get specific moves. KA in DMC5 is a good example of this.

In DMC5 it has these attacks:

Howitzer: Press Square
High ex: Hold Square

That's its entire moveset. But go into Gunslinger and it suddenly gets four more inputs. Why? Those could've easily gone into its regular moveset.

In DMC3 you could made the point that Gunslinger is an active choice, since it allows you access to these moves at the sacrifice of others (decision making). In DMC5 the only difference between Hysteric being Back+Circle and Back+Square is a d-pad input that has to be done beforehand. It does nothing.

Same argument could be made with things like Royal Guard and Trickster. In DMC3 it made sense that you had to choose, but there's honestly no reason for Dante to still have his default roll but has to press a d-pad motion to gain access to something like a different dodge or a block/parry button.

I'd rather see Dante's kit be made more wholesome while using Styles for some truly interesting and unique ideas instead of "we had these styles in DMC3, so we kinda just kept 'em".

> doesn't have metermanagement
I'd argue it does, especially with the more in-depth options available to you now from multiple DT forms with unique stats, DT-explode, QS and DG (the latter two being styles, so that's more up to you if you want to engage with it). DMC1 was king in this though for sure, but MeterManagement was pretty good in DMC3.

> decisions don't make for interesting gameplay
Perhaps to you? I can't convince you what's fun for you or not, but for me (and from what I'm reading, also some others here) it's a neat element of DMC3 that they enjoyed. As noted, don't like it? Switch version and Mods exist. My enjoyment of the game shouldn't harm yours.

> on the fly switching promotes creativity
To use your words: It's the other way around. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this. For me when the entire kit is available, clear best and worst options surface, while if the kit is more contained, I have to work with every tool that I have to make up for shortcomings.

>In DMC3 it makes sense for every (or nearly) every weapon to have it's unique stinger-attack

sword stinger is one of the best attacks. None of the other weapons stinger is good enough to replace sword. Same case with divekick. the other weapons are situational hence not a good reason for tradeoff. They gave every weapon a unique attack but didn't balance them properly. Essentially the player is making things harder for themselves by experimenting. Weapon switching on the fly allows situational weapons to be better used in combat.


>in DMC5 far less so since you can always swap to Rebellion on demand for Stinger.

you do it beacuse of style which lets you access Sin DT(best iteration of DT since the first game)

>My biggest gripe with the style-switching system is that it does nothing but add slight finger gymnastics to get specific moves

The issue is style system itself not style switching. In 1 DT doubles your moves but for some reason they replaced that with styles. The styles aren't interesting enough on their own at all. Swordmaster is clearly the best style beacuse without it you are left with even less moves than 1 with inflated enemy health. Not only that they put aerial combo on swordmaster when the sensible thing should be to put it on the default attack.

All the other other styles are uninteresting or situational at best. Style switching allows those styles to work in tandem for a better combat loop.

>DT-explode,

Dt explode is boring. requires too much waiting and is pretty much a win button.

> No stinger replaces Sword-stinger
My point exactly, but what if you don't bring the sword? Then you still have 'a stinger' in DMC3 since most weapons have one. As a result in DMC4-5 you have multiple stingers with a 'best stinger' already existing, so why do the rest exist? Since you have all weapons at the same time.
That's my point. It all feels so haphazardly put together. Fact that Dante still hasn't gotten a new style (hell, he even lost some) in nearly 20 years is also quite a disappointment.

> you do it for style which accesses SinDT
Wouldn't you rather have gotten style by each weapon having unique moves instead of the typical launcher, 3 hit and stinger combo? I mean this is kinda of what my disappointment is with DMC post 1, especially when you compare it to something like NGII. While that is a bit unfair, since NGII is literally the benchmark for weapondesign, that game has every weapon be nearly wholly unique in terms of moveset and application (something streamlined a bit more even in NG3:RE). I never had that feeling in DMC (or Bayo for that matter), which is a shame.

> swordmaster is the best style
In 3 you mean? Or 4/5? It's the most potent for style-content for sure, but wouldn't call it 'the best'. The beauty of 3 is that there is no 'best' style, just preference. Which is how they were designed.

> all other styles are uninteresting
Hardly, they have a ton of fun tools. Hell Gunslinger Artemis alone is just such a fun weapon with interesting interactions. Swordmaster is the easiest to 'default' to, especially retroactively after playing 4 and 5, but the rest have just as much to offer. Experiment more I'd say.

> DT explode
It's literally a nuclear bomb going off, how is that boring hahaha. At least it doesn't invalidate DT, and using it sacrifices a lot of other elements (low stylepoints, triggers enemyDT due to kill count, no access to QS or DG or DT afterwards).

>SIN DT
To me this felt more dull, at least mechanically. I liked the Majin Form in DMC2 for what that was worth (reward for low-HP run). The idea is neat here that you can do a quick swap into it when your style-meter goes high enough (finally implementing the style meter in gameplay outside of orb-rewards), but outside of that it's just a form with a couple of screenclearing moves and no real nuance to it. Especially since for a regular transformation you had to sacrifice regular-DT, which meant it got benched pretty hard. There was no reason not to use it or use something else instead. Looked cool tho.

All in all DMC1 did a lot more with a lot less in that regard that's for sure.

That's my point. It all feels so haphazardly put together. Fact that Dante still hasn't gotten a new style (hell, he even lost some) in nearly 20 years is also quite a disappointment.

I think you are partial to 3 hence willing to overlook a lot of its shortcoming. You can play 5 like 3 but vice versa isn't possible. I guess you played 3 before 5 hence don't find it as fun as 5.

>that game has every weapon be nearly wholly unique in terms of moveset and application

how are weapons different in that game compared to DMC&Bayo.

>In 3 you mean? Or 4/5?

In every game post 1.I'm willing to bet swordmaster is the most popular style because it locks important moves behind it. All of the moves that were DT exclusive in 1 are assigned to swordmaster. I'm not sure what else what it would take to make it more important than that.

>Hardly, they have a ton of fun tools.

yeah but there is no good trade off betwixt swordmaster and other styles since they are situational whereas swordmaster isn't.


>how is that boring hahaha

its mindless to me kinda like Nero's charge shot. you hold it and then release it to cause massive damage.

>low stylepoints

You aren't consistent with this.

>but outside of that it's just a form with a couple of screenclearing moves and no real nuance to it.

you access it by reaching SSS rank,allows you to cancel attacks and gives you access to different moves with different effects. What would make it more nuanced? Its definitely more nuanced than DT bomb.

>which meant it got benched pretty hard.
true though the way its tied to royal guard is neat. personally i would have made sin DT default DT. its a hassle to fill the meter during combat.

>3 is more likely to have best setup
If you prepare for it sure, but no loadout will be the best for every fight in a certain chapters (with some exceptions like M20), so you often have to figure out the best way to deal with a certain encounter with what you have.

The style and weapon limit works in 3 because the game was designed around it. If Dante had everything at once without rebalancing he would be too powerful (just try the mod or the Switch version if you can stomach the input lag). Having everything at once is probably better gameplay-wise but also more difficult to balance. DMC4 Dante was a disaster because of this, and while DMC5 Dante is much better he still has lots of useless fluff that DMC3 didn't really have. In DMC3 if you equip Beo and A&R you have to use the latter's launcher if you want to juggle something quickly, and that launcher sucks and you'll never use it if you had access to everything at once. In 5 often there is no reason to use certain moves because you have always access to something better.

>None of the other weapons stinger is good enough to replace sword
Every Stinger has a different use. Reb is quick, knocks back and can be comboed into a CC. Beo is short, powerful and can be charged. A&R is slow, has a decent AoE and you can choose if you want the knockback or not. Nevan is quick AoE launcher and Cerb moves you very little forward but it makes you airborne and has lots of hits for parrying. Ironically they have more distinctions than the Stingers in DMC5.

>SDT
I like it outside of Quadruple S, which is trivial to accomplish thanks to the slower decaying style meter (and the plethora of moves Dante has to cycle through) and lets you basically permastun everything for free.

>DTFlux
As it is it's too powerful compared to regular DT and yeah it's a bit boring. Still appreciate the management aspect but it makes quick work of a lot of encounters for minimal hassle. I guess every action game needs its broken mechanic (UTs, Kilgore/Rodin, HSK spam just to name a few).

>best way to deal with a certain encounter with what you have.

you aren't getting my point. you can play 5 like 3. Just use 2 weapons and two styles.

>DMC5 Dante is much better he still has lots of useless fluff that DMC3 didn't really have

5 Dante is second best balanced dante after 1. Sdt alone puts 5 over 3. 3 has the worst DMD mode in the series.

>equip Beo and A&R you have to use the latter's launcher if you want to juggle something quickly, and that launcher sucks and you'll never use it if you had access to everything at once.

exactly. There isn't an even tradeoff here to make choosing fun. It would be fun if other weapons& styles compensated properly for Dante's DMC1 arsenal.

> In 5 often there is no reason to use certain moves because you have always access to something better.
>I like it outside of Quadruple S, which is trivial to accomplish thanks to the slower decaying style meter (and the plethora of moves Dante has to cycle through) and lets you basically permastun everything for free.

you are contradicting yourself here.

>every action game needs its broken mechanic

yes but its an important mechanics both gameplay wise and story wise. 1 nailed it on the first try so this is a stepback. Bayo's magic meter is comparable to DMC1 DT so not a good comparison.

>you can play 5 like 3
You can do that but it will be worse than 3. If you limit yourself to a single style then GS and RG are pretty bad as single use styles compared to 3 and if you only use 2 weapons you're going to use a lot of the same moves because there is a lot of underpowered stuff, especially the ground combos. Dante in 3 used to have very powerful ground combos, don't know what happened.

>5 Dante is second best balanced dante after 1
Faust alone disproves this, but if you leave that out then you still have lots of broken moves and lots of useless moves in a way that DMC3 Dante really didn't have. He's much better than I initally gave it credit for but he still has a long way to go.

>There isn't an even tradeoff here to make choosing fun
The tradeoff comes from the loadout choice you make at the beginning of the mission, or if you want to set up an enemy properly to launch them with Beo instead. The Stinger moves are balanced better than the launchers otherwise (the Nevan launcher doesn't even work).

>you are contradicting yourself here
You don't really need to cycle through everything to get to SSS. Weak moves are still pretty useless because style gain isn't really that hard to do in this game. Cycling through your weapons a couple of times while only using the strongest moves of the weapons is often enough to get you through it. If they nerfed the style gain, increased style stall and made the meter drop faster then there would be more reasons to use everything to get/matain SSS.

>its an important mechanics both gameplay wise and story wise
Yeah they nerfed it too much and made DTE a requirement for it to be useful. IIRC you need to do something like 40 Killer Bees to make up for the loss of damage of not using a full powered DTE (and this is considering you only hit one enemy with the explosion). Even if the damage buff was 50% it still wouldn't be enough. How much was the DT buff in DMC1? I remember seeing something like 250%.

How do you define a useless move in DMC games?

Either a move that has an equivalent that is better in pretty much every situation or a move not worth using in general/too niche. For the first case it would be like Reb combo A in DMC4. It's a 3 hit combo ending in a knockback. Then you have the Darkslayer combo, which is the same but does more damage and has a higher DT gain. It's a bit slower but such differences in speed don't really matter in that game since enemies are slow anyway (it would matter in NG2). For the second case it would be the normal Kalina Ann shot in DMC5. Despite it having a specific use (high damage, long range projectile) it's basically never worth using since it's very slow moving and has a disgusting amount of recovery frames.
This doesn't mean that the moves are unusable or that I don't use them to fuck around, but when talking specifically about balance those are important and it's why I'm coming back to DMC3 more compared to 5.

Is this only if you're playing without regard for the style meter? Or are they not even good for that?

I'm sure someone could work them into their combos/playstyle. That Kalina Ann shot sounds like something I'd use.

>talking specifically about balance
In what way?

The style meter in 5 is pretty forgiving and you only need a few moves to max it out. Sometimes one move is enough if it hits multiple enemies.

>someone could work them into their combos/playstyle
That can be part of the appeal.

>In what way?
When taking into account just completing the game and doing it with an S rank. Pure efficiency if you will.

>That can be part of the appeal.
In pretty much every game I touch I use only what I like regardless of how 'useless' it is.

>When taking into account just completing the game and doing it with an S rank. Pure efficiency if you will.
Does DMC3 have any useless options like the ones you mentioned in DMC5?

Personally, DMC5 Dante might be my favorite

>Does DMC3 have any useless options
Some of them yes, like a lot of Cerberus moves, but in general is better balanced compared to DMC5 imo. It also helps that you have a limited loadout, so you might have to use some moves otherwise you wouldn't depending on what you choose.

Sorry to be blunt but should we move the discussion to the DMC3 thread? I don't think anybody has mentioned Bayo in the last 15-20 posts

I finished my B1 playthrough and I've got to say, it's kind of a mixed bag. I know B3 has been criticised for too much gimmicky stuff (and it's a very fair criticism) but man, this game's got some shit. The Route 666 and Space Harrier bits are awful, mostly because they're ridiculously long. If they were maybe 75% shorter I'd maybe say they were at least tolerable. Why oh why does the enitre camera rotate 360 degrees when you dodge in Bayo Harrier? Why not just spin the rocket round? I don't usually get dizziness in games but I couldn't wait for this bit to be over. The game makes you put up with so much crap to get to the good stuff. The Angel Attack mini-game - why?  Just why? Has anybody ever had fun playing that? I highly doubt it. The out of body sections - not awful, but felt limiting in a way I didn't really enjoy. I found most of the QTEs really hard to get the max points on, and I'm not a fan of wearing my controller down for no reason. I'd totally forgotten how much harder this game is on Normal compared to the others. Some enemy attacks are already very fast on Normal. There must be plenty on NSIC that you have to predict rather than react to.

I like B1s gameplay but it's hard for me to say it's better (or worse?) than it's sequels. There are some encounters in B1, likes the fights against Jeanne and the Grace/Glory (and Gracious/Glorious) fights that really feel like duels. Not just wailing away at an enemy, witch time, wail some more. You've got to look for and create your own openings. Those are missed in the sequels, for sure. It's interesting how different the magic system is when compared to the sequels. I know a lot of high-level players dislike the move away from B1s system but I like how they have different uses in each game. Sometimes it's nice to have B2s simple Devil Trigger style buff, sometimes you might wanna mess with B3 summons, or you might want the wicked weave management and risk vs reward style of B1. I like them all.

I wasn't a big fan of the flaming enemies, though. I read that you can negate the damage when touching them with a dual-Durga loadout, but otherwise you have to fight them at range. Trying to get wicked weaves out against these with the game's lock on system against these is tough, seeing as the quickest weave combos move you in really close to the enemies. Maybe I was just doing it wrong.

You do get a pretty cool selection of weapons though, and I think they do feel more different than B3s. Everything has quite a clear role in the combat loop (although for close-range I felt like Durga's pure damage output was a lot better than the Shotgun's stagger property), where as in B3 I think a bunch of them feel like you'd only really use them to just to amuse yourself with something visually different. That's not to say B3s are all bad as I still had a lot of fun with a few of them and I'd like to try and work the Microphone buffs into my gameplay. I can't believe most of the B1 weapons never came back in the sequels. Kilgore is genius - tonfa rocket launchers!? How could the devs think "nah no point bringing those back"?!

It's hard to say which is the most enjoyable game in the series, I think they all do different things well. I'm tempted to say that for me, it's still B2 for now. From memory it has the least fluff and is the most enjoyable start-to-finish playthrough, even if it lacks some of B1s combat nuance and B3s spectacle.

>You can do that but it will be worse than 3.

False. Weapons & styles are much better balanced in 5 than 3.

>If you limit yourself to a single style then GS and RG are pretty bad as single use styles compared to 3 and if you only use 2 weapons you're going to use a lot of the same moves because there is a lot of underpowered stuff, especially the ground combos. Dante in 3 used to have very powerful ground combos, don't know what happened.

I haven't played 5 in a long while but let's see

GS- rainstorm's trajectory can be controlled, shotgun got exclusive useful moves, rocket launcher has some new moves.I don't see how this is bad.

RG- same as 3. Only good change is you lose your DT instead of health& style points.

3 also makes you choose betwixt swordmaster and other styles how can you be more limiting than that.

>have lots of broken moves and lots of useless moves in a way that DMC3 Dante really didn't have.

What are these broken moves and weak moves?

>The tradeoff comes from the loadout choice you make at the beginning of the mission

As i said in my previous comment that choice isn't interesting. Let's say i go with dual swords & nunchucks instead of sword & gauntlet. Now i have no moves equivalent to sword stinger,helmbreaker & divekick which is fine but these weapons aren't compensating for that in other ways.

Dual swords - Nothing interesting about it. Its got new moves but the effect isn't interesting.

Nunchucks- same applies here.

nevan- interesting weapon but not good enough to replace sword or gauntlet.

These weapon may have some situational advantage but for a new player who has no idea what is coming next they are uninteresting. The better choice is to stick with DMC1 arsenal because it covers all bases. With on the fly switching this isn't an issue beacuse you can experiment on the spot and go from there.

This isn't an issue in 5 beacuse weapons are developed properly.

Cavaliere- grants super armor, deals high damage, grants you extra air time and the timing aspect means you can't mash.

nunchucks- 3 forms with their own quirks.


>style gain isn't really that hard to do in this game.

style gain isn't hard in 3 either.the fact that style gain leads to Sin Dt alone makes it more interesting than 3.

> move to the DMC topic
The absolute nerve how da-- yeah honestly you're right. I don't think I can merge individual posts, but for ease here's links to the DMC5 and DMC3 pages:
https://stinger.actieforum.com/f10-devil-may-cry-1-2-3-4
https://stinger.actieforum.com/f26-devil-may-cry-v

> B1 minigames
Absolutely aweful and the reason I prefered B2 so much. I will also say that B1 has a lot of downtime. The Angel-Attack animations, putting down the little doll on the next chapter. Going from one chapter to the next (or worse, wanting to replay a current one) can easily take 2-3 minutes.

> Route 666
The worst one in my book. The gimmick sections with fights within it are cool, and on your first time through its nice. But it comes to a point where you think "wait am I going in circles" . It also gets the core gameplay of Super Hangon very wrong. Hangon and Harrier are my favourite arcade-titles that I used to play for days on end when I could, and they all get them wrong, even to something as basic as the camera.

> B1 magic
I will say I love the balance/application of it way more. It's used for TA, but also multiform, summoning attackers or butterflies, wicked weaves and more. You're constantly managing, while in B2 it was basically "or I do this single thing, or I just blast the meter with a screen-clearing super ultra attack".

> weave combo
Offset is required here, so doing two dodges with intermittent inputs so you only get the weave. Or using those instant-weave attacks, or just using enviromentals (cars and such) and angel weapons.

> B1 v B3 weapons
Yeah B1 seems to do a lot more with a lot less. Originally I hated it for this, but on a second visit I can appreciate how every weapon has its niche despite its similar movesets. B3 seems overly filled with a ton of things that do exactly the same as the other.

> B2
Yeah I'm in the same boat, at least as a ' start to finish ' kind of game. I'd have to replay it to see how it holds up mechanically though.

> Route 666
Super Hangon, that's the one. I thought the bike sections must have been a reference to something but couldn't think what game it was. Excellent point about the camera, the placement of it is painfully stupid. Right behind Bayo so you can't really see what's ahead of you. It's a shame because I think the hand-to-hand fights in that chapter are actually quite interesting, the environment makes them quite different to the other fights in the game.

> Magic
I can see why people were disappointed with this aspect when B2 came out. It's kinda cruel that you lose both health and magic for getting hit, but in a fun way.

> Weave Combos
Ahh, of course, you're supposed to use offset so you don't have to commit to the attack animations you don't need. I'd forgotten about that!

I jumped back in to a Hard playthrough last night. Even though it's harder, the earlier chapters are definitely more fun the second time around when you've got most of your kit unlocked. I'm finding that I'm generally getting better ranks this time.

I was intending on doing a B3 hard run but I might stick with this for a while. Might post more stuff in the B1 thread instead.

Why did this turn into a DMC3 vs DMC5 war?

.

> minigames
One thing I will say in B1's defence, you can easily skip it upon replays. My biggest gripe with B3 in regards to this was that, no matter how much fun it was, every chapter had some of these things breaking the flow.

.

> loading
I more meant the unskippable loads (regardless of horsepower). So the startup and closing animations of Angel Attack. The animation the Cereza moves the Bayonetta doll to the next stage. The animation that starts the next chapter-select icon. It all adds up to an annoying degree. Replaying the stage is even worse, since you have to go to chapter-select afterwards.

> skip minigames on replays in B3
Can you? I mean, a lot of them are right before key boss fights or smackdamn in the middle of the chapter.