What are you playing right now?

Mario 64 is a game I'll always respect but never enjoy. I played it a lot at my friend's houses when I was a boy, but never got into it and always prefered the 2d games (never dared say so then since 3d was obviously superior to a child, right?). Bought it decades later and honestly, still didn't do it for me. I get why people would love its more sandbox nature but there's just something that doesn't jibe with me.

> Dragon Quest builders 2
> GOTG
Damn, that's high praise. I knew you were into it considering your posts but this I didn't see coming.

Gotta admit, you've got me curious about DQ Builders 2, a game I know nothing about in a series I know nothing about.


Okay, so back in the day I developed sort of a reputation for liking games nobody else liked. Granted this was partly because I was surrounded by basic-ass industry bros who thought stuff like God Hand and Monster Hunter were bad because they didn't sell well in the States. But every once in awhile I develop a taste for something that I know is going to feed right into that reputation and can't help but laugh.

I've been experimenting with Dolphin the last couple weeks, and started playing Metroid: Other M. I thought it looked cool a decade ago, but never bothered with it because the surrounding sentiment was so singularly negative and I hated using the Wiimote in general. Now I'm playing it with zero expectations and am SHOCKED to find I'm enjoying every minute of it???

Granted I'm only 2-3 hours in, but early impressions are:
-It's wayyyyyy more of a Metroid than I'd been led to believe. It's scratching the itch better than Samus Returns did, that's for sure.

-Not sure how it compares on Wii, but at 1080p with a PS4 controller, this game is gorgeously slick and feels really good in my hands. I do think moving in the 3D space with a Wiimote D-pad must've sucked a lot.

-I've always thought Metroid's "combat" was a forgettable means to an end, much like the classic top-down Zeldas. Other M isn't a full realization of Team Ninja's pedigree, but the little innovations they've made to the combat are certainly cool and feel good (on the PS4 controller). Perfect-dodging by just tilting the stick feels great, and I love the cinematic finishers. They've made the action more interesting without making it too technical or demanding of your finger dexterity.

-I've heard people don't like the VO. So far it's been 80% Samus monologues, and I think she did a good job. I can see how it would sound monotonous to some ears, but I think she's on the safe side of "wistful reflectiveness." These humorlessly reflective monologues are sort of a sci-fi trope, but then again so is Metroid.

-I've heard people hate that Samus is so subordinate in this one and that that's the excuse for gating her abilities. Granted I'm only casually familiar with Metroid's lore and pretty fuzzy on the timeline (the only ones I cleared are Fusion and Zero Mission), but I think it's totally believable that Samus's badassness is counterbalanced by her by-the-bookness, much like Ripley, who I assume was her primary inspiration.

After like eight games of doing the same thing over and over, it's gotten pretty silly seeing them come up with new misfortunes that rob Samus of her abilities every time. I like the idea that in this case she's simply cooperating with her squad, because I think that tells us something about Samus we've never had an opportunity to hear before (because she's always worked in isolation). It might have been cool if there were a subversive moment in Other M where she disobeys (or CAN disobey) orders and it has some impact on her relationships, but as it stands I think it's a decent new approach to this perpetual narrative problem dictated by Metroid's gameplay. In any case, I've always felt like story was secondary to atmosphere and action in Metroid, and even in Other M the story hasn't been obtrusive enough to detract from that so far.

Speaking of Ripley, Other M seems to take many of its cues from Aliens, a movie which ironically seems immune to criticism despite having a lot of flimsy plot devices, iffy performances, and departing drastically in tone with what preceded it. Dumb marines? Check. Flimsy "Oops we can't use any of our weapons here" justification? Check. Strong, proven heroine stuck on the sidelines, beholden to the questionable orders of a commanding officer? CHEX MIX.

But y'know what? Aliens is rad anyway. Not sure how people reacted in '86, but I think by now people just kind of roll with it because it stands on its own merits. Plus it's admirable that they weren't content to just rehash the same thing they'd already done. Other M, meanwhile, is only inching away from the Metroid formula, which had been done to death a lot more than Alien had when Aliens came around. Maybe people would have reacted more positively if Other M had deviated even more.

Anyone else have a positive experience with this game? (I'm still bracing myself for it to go sour later, but so far I'm totally on board.)

The most positive experience I have with that game was having bought 10 bucks of used copies and setting them on fire.

Jokes aside (or was it), combat and gameplay wise there's little to hate imo. As you note the controls were a problem with the D-pad for movement, though it wasn't that bad. The movement from first to third-person was handled well. Metroid's combat has always been on-par with Zelda imo, it has a lot of interesting tools but most just pewpewpew/slashslashslash their way through which is both the fault of the player and the game imo, since it never motivates players to push further. You have damage-over-time flame tools, resource management, a competant freezing weapon with shatter properties depending on the game, meter-management in Prime 3, fun Morph Ball shenanigans etc. Or you just charge-beam your way to victory haha. But there is a lot to the game's combat I feel and here too.

In terms of exploration, there's a lot of locked doors, which is a bit of a no-no for Metroid. Fusion kind of did it alright, but Other M is pretty railroaded. The unskippable cutscenes don't help either.

Warning, from here-on be spoilers. I tried to keep them to a minimum.

The biggest downsides imo of Other M was the game's visuals, narrative setback, disregard for the work of others and misconception of character across cultures. Starting with the visuals, after Metroid Prime's 3d take it was hard to go back. That game nailed the sort of sci-fi mood with hyper realism meets good art-style. Bright colors. Imaginative re-designs for the 3d world. Other M on the other hand built upon the style of Fusion and Super Metroid.

Metroid Prime is largely ignored and, due to some plot elements, also removed from the canon which was later-on confirmed. It is no secret that Sakamoto, the series director, is very unhappy with Metroid Prime and more than a tad jealous. Metroid never hit it big in the homeland, but in the West it did. Super Metroid was hailed a masterpiece, and here came some dumb Texans in his eyes that managed to do a better job than him.

Narrative setback mostly in terms of the melodrama, but also in the 'why'. Why focus more on a story? Why fill a game-series that until now always was niche and filled its tales with subtle enviromental storytelling, with cutscenes. Why give a game like that a movie-mode? Japanese games were falling behind at the time, which resulted in a ton of bad titles i.e. the super serious Bomberman, DmC, Gunblade(? I forgot the name, the capcom title), Ninja Gaiden 3 - all chasing that Gears of War, God of War and Uncharted cash hoping to stay afloat.

And then you come to the downside that, Metroid never had any real writing. Samus only had a few lines in the actual games, which were either personal notes in some logs of Metroid Prime and the dialogue she has in Fusion, all of which painted her as an honorable warrior. Pair that with what the player has done in the games, and gamers tended to paint a picture of her being this battle hardened woman. You see this visualized well in the Metroid Prime 1 ending, her face is still imo the best interpretation she's had: https://external-preview.redd.it/7UGaUYC2FZ5NVOgQ6rj57i51Ag1G6sTAZBJnwww2kRY.jpg?auto=webp&s=1e16bdd12abb7586d9618a8870d6eed001acaaea
She's jaded, seen a lot of hurt, a loner, strong. It's telling that nearly all the fans of the franchise had the same 'picture' of her personality in their mind, despite there not really being any.

The danger then becomes, the second you start to give her a personality, it will most likely clash. People also have an idea of what kind of person Link is, or Mario, or the trainer from Pokemon. Hence, you leave them alone. Giving them character ruins the insert people gave them.

Which lead to the cultural divide, namely how woman are seen in Japanese culture. This is not my take, but Sakamoto's. After the game's lackluster reception he was asked why he thought people felt Samus wasn't "their Samus" and why she was so weak. He noted that in Japanese culture a woman is more 'soft', 'open to her weakness' etc. So that's probably a cultural divide. I personally don't see that, but hey, who am I haha!

Though, yeah, to me she was weak in this entry. This is, even if you ignore the Prime games, her upteenth adventure. She has killed Ridley over two times now (5 if you count Primes). She has commited genocide. Blown up a planet. She is a walking deathmachine capable of destroying the entire space-station. Yet here comes daddy Malko saying "you cannot equip your armour that protects you from extreme heat because it's scary to me, go boil to death until I allow it" followed by her getting a PTSD attack when being confronted with Ridley. To western fans, that wasn't Samus. Samus, in the picture they made for her, would've immediately grabbed her gun high and aimed at him. Compare it to this encounter, the first time she meets him again after having killed him:

https://youtu.be/IiyYlYnhat0?t=288

That's Samus. She whinces a bit (interpretation) that he gets away, and goes on to chase him through the planet. No crying. No suit-failure. No panic. If that was just my interpretation of her, it would be no defence, but if it is nearly universal, there's something going on.

Other M would've worked in isolutation for me, or as a first game, but building off of the world building set in the previous titles and the Primes especially, it just didn't stick for me.

It also didn't help that the tale was, strangely, a retelling of Fusion's tale. Which makes its connection to it even stranger.

Sorry I went of kind of a tangent there hahahahah, don't take any of this personally please.

This site needs a warning not to mention Other M.

Other M. Fun! It’s been a long time since I’ve played that one...10...11 years already!?

I liked that game a lot. Sometimes I enjoy ‘on rails’...depends on the game and my mood. I really dig the 2D/3D stuff in the game, they did a great job with that where they could have easily blew it. It still has 2D puzzles of the old (I’ve played them all since the first one on NES). One of my favorite franchises.

The story...I sort of agree, some cutscenes are long and you do see more Samus personality which is unusual...you get to see a bit in Fusion as was mentioned, but this went a bit further. I love the way you learn in the Prime series...it feels better, because it’s up to you to find the story, it isn’t spoon fed, that was great. In this one though, you get to see her admiration for (I don’t remember who it is haha)...and do it sort of flowed.

Gameplay though, loved it. I just didn’t like some of the (find the obscure thing in this scene) portions. It even has a hard mode which is fun!

Have fun Laquerware!

> This site needs a warning not to mention Other M
Everytime I see it posted I just black out, come back and think "did I post all that, where did the time go".

There are doctors for that.

How much do you bill per hour?

Mario sunshine is...interesting. I agree with a lot of the criticisms(little variety, Fludd is too much of a crutch, blue coins) but it still has some fun objectives and Mario controls like he’s had way too much caffeine which is entertaining. Having a hard time finding time for it with Galaxy on the same cartridge though.

Playing more and more Dead Space 2. Feel bad for neglecting these games so much. Really love how later in the game the delimb system gets a new layer when enemies start spewing crap out of them after a delimb to encourage more careful kills. The hide and seek enemies are great fun and I’ve been having a good time laying traps with the detonator. It’s a minor thing, but I really like how spawns can work in this game; enemies crawl out of vents randomly, it adds some unpredictablity to the encounters while keeping it logically consistent with the game world. Also the ripper is such a fun weapon. Not really the most complex thing but I love it. That final fight can die in a fire though.

> Super Mario Sunshine
I hope you continue on with it. It has a great flavor to it. The level design is such that F.L.U.D.D. is needed, but you can still find plenty of spaces to just use good 'ol Mario jumping/wall jumping/backflip/triple jump combos, etc. There will be the 'obvious' path, but you can get very creative and shorten your traversals when you forge your own path and experiment.

> Blue Coins
I've always been a fan of some collect-a-thon games like Banjo Kazooie, Donkey Kong 64, etc so the blue coins were a neat addition for me to SMS...It made me explore every nook and cranny of each level. I enjoy Mario level design a lot, so this sort of thing is fun for me. Hope it doesn't turn you off too much.

Some of the best levels in that game are when you have F.L.U.D.D. taken away from you. The throwback art/music style is fantastic. Definitely try to look for those levels :)

>How much do you bill per hour?

I bill by stages in CL.

I beat up until stage 5 iirc, so hit me chief. How much hours of therapy does that buy me?

500 hours.

The therapy being playing CL. So you have 500 hours of therapy.

And as you go through this therapy you gain more hours per stage. What a deal!

Lacquerware wrote:I thought it looked cool a decade ago, but never bothered with it because the surrounding sentiment was so singularly negative and I hated using the Wiimote in general.

Hey. Welcome to the forum (had to skip over the last page to avoid any potential Nightshade spoilers). You may be interested in that the overseas translation for the game received serious changes that contributed to story woes.

Anyone else have a positive experience with this game? (I'm still bracing myself for it to go sour later, but so far I'm totally on board.)

https://stinger.actieforum.com/t544-metroid-other-m

Royta/Raeng wrote:Sorry I went of kind of a tangent there hahahahah, don't take any of this personally please.

I definitely don't take it personally! On the contrary I'm grateful to have found a place where I can engage in healthy, non-toxic conversation about action games even when we have differing tastes.

One thing I'm gathering is that Fusion might have been a weird place for me to start this series. (Technically I played the original first, but I was so young it was almost entirely over my head.) I mean I know it's Part IV, but even putting that aside, I've heard people criticize Fusion for essentially eliminating Metroid's exploration element by giving you waypoints that spell out where you need to be. But I always thought that was overly critical--the waypoints felt more like hints, and there's still exploration involved in in finding all the upgrades etc. In hindsight, I also think the waypoints helped with the pacing. I've since started playthroughs of Super Metroid, Metroid II (original), Samus Returns, and Metroid Prime, and I've bounced off all of them because I inevitably get lost and spend hours scouring the entire map looking for the hidden path to progression. After awhile the openness of the exploration starts to feel meaningless, because progress is still on a linear rail, you just can't see it. (I absolutely will revisit Super and the Prime series one day.) 

Also I remember thinking it was a little weird in Fusion that Samus seemed to be constantly fixated on this Adam guy, who I assumed was a character from one of the games I'd missed. So I think I already came to terms with the idea of Samus having this soft, vulnerable side when I first got into Metroid, haha. So it feels a little ironic that people were so put off by it in Other M.

>there's a lot of locked doors, which is a bit of a no-no for Metroid. 
Really? Isn't progress always gated by your abilities? I thought this was standard for the entire genre.

>unskippable cutscenes
Always infuriating, but I'm about four hours in now and still haven't encountered an instance where this has been particularly consequential. Occasionally I'll have to watch an enemy entrance a few times, but those are like a few seconds long. Forgivable since I'm having so much fun. ^__________________^

>Prime and Sakamoto
That's interesting and pretty unfortunate. But I can understand how frustrating it must be to watch some other overseas team take "your" creation and take it in a more successful direction without you. All the more frustrating for people to act like Sakamoto's characterization of his character is wrong because they've all been projecting their own fantasies onto this Texan rendition for ten years. 

>Why focus more on a story? Why fill a game-series that until now always was niche and filled its tales with subtle enviromental storytelling, with cutscenes. 
This is where I start to feel like much of the criticism of Other M I'm seeing boils down to it not doing the same thing yet again. Don't get me wrong, I've always said video games are a lot better at atmosphere than plot, and I tend to zone out as soon as the cutscenes start rolling (in games in general), but I don't think the decision to focus a little more on story was inappropriate in its own right. It's a fairly natural direction to go with a beloved series/protag in a market with an increasing demand for story-driven experiences. 

That said, so far I'd still say the cutscenes have been considerably more sparse than most of the game's 2010 contemporaries. It really does feel to me like they just inched ever so slightly away from precedent, not like the all-out betrayal I'd been led to believe this game was.    

>Bomberman, DmC, Gunblade(? I forgot the name, the capcom title)
To be fair, DmC did appeal to a new segment that had been turned off by previous DMCs. But it did it in a way that seemed to pave over all the good work that had been done to date, which was a stupid idea from the outset. Compared to DmC, Other M seems fairly respectful to at least the non-Prime stuff. (For the record, I will go to bat for DmC any day despite its misguided pitch.)

I'm dying to know what this "Gunblade" Capcom title you're referring to is.  

>Battle-hardened woman, character "inserts" 
It does seem like a lot of people's gripes with Samus's characterization here could've been allayed had they only set this game BEFORE all/most of the other ones. Because my grasp of the chronology is fuzzy, I kind of assumed this was a younger, greener Samus going in. I can see how that would irritate people, but I do still think you see her badassery on display in the game. There have been several cutscenes already where an enemy ambushes her and she immediately snaps into shooting stance.

I've never been in love with the "voiceless protagonist" thing games do, although admittedly it works way better in Metroid than in most since she's almost always alone anyway. It's like every game is the last 25 minutes of Alien. But I don't think it's entirely fair for people to malign a game for characterization that clashes with their assumptions about a character mostly been presented as a blank canvas. Some amount of vulnerability is important to making a character relatable and facilitating conflict, and I still just don't feel like this game has crossed a line yet, since I've mostly been doing badass things on my own. 

>She has commited genocide. 
Huh.

>Yet here comes daddy Malko saying "you cannot equip your armour that protects you from extreme heat because it's scary to me, go boil to death until I allow it"
It is pretty dumb that something as innocuous as heat resistance is beholden to this same "captain's orders" conceit, but it feels a little like splitting hairs to me after the series has asked us SO MANY times to believe she keeps losing and reacquiring the same abilities. I'm always suspending disbelief to facilitate this gameplay element anyway. Also, while that Ridley encounter you linked is rad as hell, it ends with Ridley flying through outer space by flapping his bat wings, just to give an example of how this series' radness has always justified the occasional glaring logic blemish. 

I haven't gotten to the Ridley encounter in Other M yet but now I'm eager to see how it strikes me.   

>Other M would've worked in isolutation for me, or as a first game, but building off of the world building set in the previous titles and the Primes especially, it just didn't stick for me. 

It also didn't help that the tale was, strangely, a retelling of Fusion's tale. Which makes its connection to it even stranger.
I try to judge every work in isolation, and maybe that's why I'm having such a good time with this. I'm sure it also helps that my expectations were as low as possible. I've also dedicated most of my life to Japan in various forms, so maybe my sensibility is a little more forgiving of this treatment.

That is weird that it's a retelling of Fusion though. Does that mean they didn't even consider this canon when they were making it? So far I've had no indication that this could be retreading Fusion stuff, so I guess I'm still just scratching the surface? 

Birdman wrote:This site needs a warning not to mention Other M.

I'm really enjoying this discussion! But considering how long-winded we're getting, you may have a point.

hebass wrote:Other M. Fun! It’s been a long time since I’ve played that one...10...11 years already!?

I liked that game a lot. Sometimes I enjoy ‘on rails’...depends on the game and my mood. I really dig the 2D/3D stuff in the game, they did a great job with that where they could have easily blew it. It still has 2D puzzles of the old (I’ve played them all since the first one on NES). One of my favorite franchises.

The story...I sort of agree, some cutscenes are long and you do see more Samus personality which is unusual...you get to see a bit in Fusion as was mentioned, but this went a bit further. I love the way you learn in the Prime series...it feels better, because it’s up to you to find the story, it isn’t spoon fed, that was great. In this one though, you get to see her admiration for (I don’t remember who it is haha)...and do it sort of flowed.

Gameplay though, loved it. I just didn’t like some of the (find the obscure thing in this scene) portions. It even has a hard mode which is fun!

Have fun Laquerware!

Thanks! Nice to see someone else who had a positive experience with it. Honestly I could take or leave the story, but I'm having a ton of Metroidy fun and enjoying the look and feel of the game, and even the story stuff is still fairly appealing to me so far, even if it doesn't quite meld with previous games. Mine isn't that fine-toothed a comb I guess.

vert1 wrote:Hey. Welcome to the forum (had to skip over the last page to avoid any potential Nightshade spoilers). You may be interested in that the overseas translation for the game received serious changes that contributed to story woes.

Wowwww that is a dense analysis. I'm probably not going to watch the entire 48 minutes, but from the fifteen or so minutes I've just watched (jumping around to look at the subtitled bits), I'm not really seeing how the Japanese text actually supports this narrator's claims. Often his translations seem to infer things not actually in the Japanese text. 

E.g., at about 17:14 he says the loc undercuts the stakes at hand, citing an example where the official loc line is "This facility appears to be on an intercept course with Galactic Federation HQ." The translation he provides is "The Bottle Ship appears to have set a course towards the Federation's home planet," and he points out that "set a course" implies intent, while "be on an intercept course" does not. But what the Japanese actually says, as literally as I can put it, is "The Bottle Ship has begun moving toward the Galactic Federation HQ." It doesn't imply intent, the player must infer that for themselves. It also doesn't say "home planet," it says 本部, which the game seems to translate fairly consistently as headquarters, which is a fairly literal translation. That HQ may be on their home planet, but that's for us to infer.

At 25:10, he suggests the translation "After a mission gone wrong..." versus the official "As the result of a certain incident." The Japanese says something more like "spurred by a certain incident." "Mission gone wrong" is entirely this narrator's inference. 

Similarly at 17:31 he criticizes the translation "meeting room" rather than his translation, "before parliament." But the Japanese text indeed says "meeting room." He's inferring that that means before parliament. 

Am I missing something? This Japanese text is from the game, right? Don't get me wrong, modern localizations often DO diverge drastically from the original Japanese for the sake of readability or clarity (and at places like Nintendo and Capcom this process is thoroughly interwoven with the game's development and dev team), but if the claim is that Other M's official localization made drastic changes, the narrator's examples are actually disproving the claim while his own suggestions seem to be in favor of taking more liberties based on his own inferences (using "before parliament" for "meeting room," etc).

In any case, this is also just wayyyy wayyyy deeper than I think this story warrants delving, but I'm pretty apathetic about video game narratives in general, unless they're really exceptional (e.g., I loved Return of the Obra Dinn).

Thanks for the video, anyway! Interesting to see this kind of deep dive.

I'll try and not make my post too long this time haha!

> healthy non-toxic discussion
This is good to hear! This is still what I hope this forum will stay as and why I made it, good to hear man :)

> Fusion
It was the first time the game in the series worked against the exploration element by actively locking doors behind players to limit their exploration and focus their attention more. There are two reasons why Fusion is excused a bit more in this regard compared to Other M:
- Fusion came after a near 15 year drought of the series, so people were happy to get a classic Metroid game, period. It also offered some neat new things to counter balance the lost freedom by having a ton of good bosses, areas and stellar music and the fantastic SA-X hunting you;
- it still featured options around it. There's a famous moment in the game where sequence breaking around a set of locked doors is actually rewarded with an in-game cutscene, so it at least rewarded exploration and toying with mechanics somewhat.

Other M came behind the revival of the series. We had gotten a 2d title, 3 3d titles and a DS shooter game which honestly wasn't that bad. So it was excused a lot less.

> bounced off of classic Metroid
That's fine, but there you also kind of have what makes it so appealing to players, you are in a big world, just go explore. The hint-system in Metroid Prime could at least be disabled, but in Fusion and Other M you always have a bright shining light, which takes a lot of the fun out of it.

> locked doors
I mean artificially locked doors i.e. doors that were opened by you before but are now locked for story reasons to prevent you from backtracking or going a route the designers did not want you to take. This is absent in the post-game obviously.

> All the more frustrating for people to act like Sakamoto's characterization of his character is wrong because they've all been projecting their own fantasies onto this Texan rendition for ten years.
This isn't true I'd say, the personality of Samus as we know it was already there in Super Metroid and before that. Everyone always saw her as the strong fighter, the amazon. Release-artwork also showed this. The Prime series mearly made it stronger.

> different = bad
Being different certainly didn't help, considering how niche genres like that of Metroid are (or were, as this was before the indie boom of Metroidvanias). You saw the same with Hitman: Absolution. Sure it was quite a decent game, but it was different, which in a result meant that we lost the only game of its kind.

I'd have been a big difference had it at least been done well. Yet the plot is filled with weird choices and holes, especially considering the death of a character which made zero sense.

> inched away
By comparison within its own series, it was a big leap I'd say. Prime was already quite the shift, going from a game that always started with a one minute intro, only to then never have a cutscene again, to a game with roughly 20 minutes of cutscenes (not counting scenes such as 'door is now unlocked') though most were boss introductions. The rest was always enviromental storytelling, both in the 2d games as in the 3d games.

Subsequently Other M is around 2-2.5 hours, having longer cutscenes than Uncharted 1 and about equal amount as Uncharted 2 - that's a big, big change in narrative style imo.

> Gunblade
Got massively confused with Quantum Theory, which isn't even Capcom haha.

> DmC
Same, game is hated for all the wrong reasons imo. But that's another discussion entirely haha.

> Other M set before the first game
That'd alone would fix a ton of issues for me. This game is nearly at the end of the timeline which just doesn't fit imo.

> vulnerability is important
For sure, but there's vulnerable and then there's practically breaking down when seeing a monster you've already killed a trillion times, or constantly needing someone to save you. Her being unable to kill the last Metroid, the emotion she showed when she saw the Chozo Temple blow up, that was her vulnerable side imo.

> genocide
Though the game downplays it, she killed an entire species (the Metroid) and has actively worked to kill all Space Pirates.

> Fusion retelling
Yeah the story is nearly exactly the same beat for beat. Especially the 'twist'. You go to a space station with a distress call, something escaped, you work together with Malko to solve it, you find the hidden experiment, work to destroy it, the end. The hidden experiment is even the same. I'm sort of oversimplifying it, but even when you write it out completely it's nearly the same barring the Deleter and Mother subplots of Other M.

Lacquerware wrote:

vert1 wrote:Hey. Welcome to the forum (had to skip over the last page to avoid any potential Nightshade spoilers). You may be interested in that the overseas translation for the game received serious changes that contributed to story woes.

Wowwww that is a dense analysis. I'm probably not going to watch the entire 48 minutes, but from the fifteen or so minutes I've just watched (jumping around to look at the subtitled bits), I'm not really seeing how the Japanese text actually supports this narrator's claims. Often his translations seem to infer things not actually in the Japanese text.

47:44 - "This subtitle file hardly constitutes a better translation. At least in the literal sense. I took just as much liberties with the original material as the official localization did. Hoping to make the story of Other M come across as clear and interesting as possible within the constraints of how it was presented. But despite my own indulgences I hope this translation does do better justice to the plot, characters, and lore in the game's story."

In any case, this is also just wayyyy wayyyy deeper than I think this story warrants delving, but I'm pretty apathetic about video game narratives in general, unless they're really exceptional (e.g., I loved Return of the Obra Dinn).

Thanks for the video, anyway! Interesting to see this kind of deep dive.

Sure, but considering how well-discussed this game is... this may be the final level going into a comparison of the English script to the Japanese script; I think the word choice is massively better in the video. The dedicated thread here on the game, you'll notice, is mechanically-oriented conversation.

Infinity_Divide wrote:Mario sunshine is...interesting. I agree with a lot of the criticisms(little variety, Fludd is too much of a crutch, blue coins) but it still has some fun objectives and Mario controls like he’s had way too much caffeine which is entertaining. Having a hard time finding time for it with Galaxy on the same cartridge though.

Playing more and more Dead Space 2. Feel bad for neglecting these games so much. Really love how later in the game the delimb system gets a new layer when enemies start spewing crap out of them after a delimb to encourage more careful kills. The hide and seek enemies are great fun and I’ve been having a good time laying traps with the detonator. It’s a minor thing, but I really like how spawns can work in this game; enemies crawl out of vents randomly, it adds some unpredictablity to the encounters while keeping it logically consistent with the game world. Also the ripper is such a fun weapon. Not really the most complex thing but I love it. That final fight can die in a fire though.

Started playing 1 after watching a recent Joe the Button stream of a handicap DS2 run. Haven't played 1 in a while, it is great fun on impossible. PC port is horrible.

I haven’t played 1 in like a decade so I’ll probably play it after I’m done with 2. It was nice to re-discover this series since they’re almost exactly my thing when it comes to combat. I had kind of just assumed I would never find another great TPS after TEW but DS2 totally exceeded my expectations.

Same. After 2 came out I never went back. 1 has much worse feeling combat in general.
The un upgraded plasma can take up to five shots for a normal slasher. I don't think no upgrade would be possible. Also the stomp feels bad, misses all the time. Stasis doesn't recharge, and you can't kinesis kill objects other than barrels really. Still has great encounters and levels.

You ever play 3? I never did and would like to play 3 coop at some point. I have a 360 for games like that.

I played 3. I remember not liking it that much though I can't remember exactly why.

I do remember that you could customize your gun and I think there wasn't different ammo types. Every weapon used the same ammo or something.

Hey hey, sorry for my slow responses. I haven't even gotten to play any more Other M since my last post. I don't want to draw this out too much because I think I have a pretty good understanding of why some people dislike the game now, and am also comfortable with the fact that my enjoyment stems from a difference of "gaming values," haha.

>Fusion came after a near 15 year drought of the series, so people were happy to get a classic Metroid game, period.

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that checks out. Fusion was 2002, a day after Prime came out, which was just eight years after Super Metroid. I guess the point still stands that it had been awhile since a 2D Metroid, but it still weirds me out that that surrounding context allowed for SO MUCH of a disparity in sentiment between two fundamentally pretty similar games--if anything, I'd expect people to be more critical of Other M if that had been the only Metroid they'd gotten in awhile (kind of like they were with DmC). For fear that it was the new direction for the series rather than just another drop in the bucket. Point taken about SA-X though, that really did tie the whole experience together. First 2D game to kinda scare me.

>That's fine, but there you also kind of have what makes it so appealing to players, you are in a big world, just go explore.

Yeah I think I just never thought the openness of the early games was good or meaningful. It felt like the illusion of nonlinearity in an inherently linear experience, which to me is just tedious, especially in a world like Metroid's, which isn't as inherently compelling/entertaining as, say, an Igavania castle. It would be cool if you could progress/win by doing things in any order or without things being gated by upgrades, but to me that would be unMetroid. Maybe. I dunno, I'd still be curious to see them try something different like that.

>This isn't true I'd say, the personality of Samus as we know it was already there in Super Metroid and before that. Everyone always saw her as the strong fighter, the amazon.

Yeah I think this vulnerability we see in Samus is one of those bits of dissonance I experienced first with Fusion (with her thinking about Adam all the time), but figured it was just a liberty they took to serve the plot, which didn't really faze me since I was never that invested in plot or believability to begin with. That kind of went out the window with the morph ball conceit, not to mention Ridley's bat wings working in the vacuum of space. XD

>Being different certainly didn't help, considering how niche genres like that of Metroid are (or were, as this was before the indie boom of Metroidvanias). You saw the same with Hitman: Absolution.

Haha I actually really liked Absolution, again not really looking very critically at the story. Same deal--after watching the series do the same thing competently four times, I welcomed a different approach. I don't think it's bad to just deliver more of the same good thing over and over, but I think it's cool when one series/franchise does a bunch of distinct things that don't overwrite/replace each other.  


>Got massively confused with Quantum Theory, which isn't even Capcom haha.

Ahhh, haha. Well as a replacement Capcom example, there's Lost Planet 3. That was such a complete departure that it baffles even me, but I do still think that's different than being "bad." Judged on what it sets out to do rather than what it doesn't, it's...all right.  

>DmC: Same, game is hated for all the wrong reasons imo. But that's another discussion entirely haha.
Hear, hear.


>there's vulnerable and then there's practically breaking down when seeing a monster you've already killed a trillion times


That does sound pretty dissonant D: I think I have such a low expectation of game narratives that I've never allowed them to factor into my criteria for how I assess games. I thought it was a symptom of being an action gamer, but now I don't know.

vert1 wrote:

47:44 - "This subtitle file hardly constitutes a better translation. At least in the literal sense. I took just as much liberties with the original material as the official localization did. Hoping to make the story of Other M come across as clear and interesting as possible within the constraints of how it was presented.

Ahh, so it seems like he is criticizing the writing rather than the translation. Fair enough, but yeah it does kind of feel like polishing a...well, not a turd, but a video game story. XD I do think the shift to a greater focus on story makes for a less classy Metroid, but yeah that just doesn't equate to "terrible game" for me--it barely even registers as a factor. Almost all my favorite action games--even Nightshade--have corny, unnecessary exposition and I just tune it out.

I know what I'm NOT planning to buy. Atelier Ryza 2 on PS4. The trailer is censored so there's a high chance the game will be too. Sick of Sony's shit. Might have to grab a Switch for it. I like my women 'problematic'.

No problems man, life tends to get in the way! And to be clear, it's all good, it's just good to discuss stuff from time to time, gives a difference of perspective. It's easy to stay in the bubble of hate or love, good to get a different view on things.

> Metroid release
No idea how I reached 15 years, I think I maybe used Metroid 1's release date. I blame my rage blinding my logic haha, but yeah 8 years. That still buys a lot of good will I'd say generally speaking, especially in a genre as niche as Metroid. You saw the same with DMC (though granted, I was less likely to offer a favourable opinion to that one despite it being released after such a big break).

> similar games
One thing that wasn't similar though was the core gameplay i.e. Metroid Fusion was a 2d Metroid game, Other M a 2.5d one. Fusion was basically Super Metroid with a new map, a revised wall-jump, some new abilities and story. Other M had different mechanics, widly different combat etc. Only the structure remained similar at a top-level if you get me.

> new direction etc. Hitman Absolution etc.
I think this to me boils down to (personally), if you make a game, and you don't want to make that game again, make a different game(series). Don't make a Splinter Cell shooter series, don't make Mario into a racing series, don't make Call of Duty into a stealth series. Either make it a clear side-venture like Mario Kart or Metal Gear Rising with the knowledge that the regular show will go on, or make a new title. You can still innovate within the same game series and genre by changing up fundamental elements, just like at how different Ninja Gaiden Black and Ninja Gaiden II are at a fundamental level or work to improve like with Hitman which added so many new mechanics in each title.

Hitman is a unique stealth game with an emphasis on 'blending in', which not a lot of games do. Take it away, and that genre vanishes. I had a talk about this with a friend of mine years ago about Star Trek. I'm a big fan of the tv-series (TNG, DS9, VOY etc), but the movie by Abrams was terrible to me. He said it was the best Star Trek since he actually liked it, as he found the shows boring. So then my question was: why? Why make a movie about an IP whose goal is to be liked by people that didn't like it? Money, probably, but it also shows a wrong mentality imo on a conceptual level.

There's plenty of games and genres I really don't enjoy, which is fine. Sure I'd like to be able to enjoy Fifa, but let those other millions do that while I enjoy Nioh and vice versa you know.

You see this with God of War too, and almost with NG3. The developers tried something truely new, but as a result you remove the old. GoW2018 was a hit, so by default we'll never see the classic gameplay again. You could argue "you still have the old ones" and that's absolutely true, but there was still so much they could do with it. Same with Hitman. Same with Star Trek, same with Metroid haha!

> metroid story
I think for me it was mostly that I was really interested in Metroid's story and mythos already, so when a Metroid game was announced that would really zoom in on that aspect, I was extremely excited and thus also extremely let down haha.

It's funny you mention Star Trek in a metroid discussion... Metroid's kind of in the same boat as Star Trek where they never advance the plot. Chronologically, the last game is Fusion. Then they keep releasing prequels, interquels, remakes, etc. and nothing showing what happens after Fusion. Same with Star Trek and the TNG movies, which were the last ones chronologically... for a while anyway. Now we have Picard, after a long time. Wonder how long we'll have to wait for Metroid 5.

I haven't really given Picard a chance yet, since it really seems to have a different set of values than the original series from what I've heard/seen. Later it was said to be non-canon which also didn't help.  Did you watch it? How was it?

> stuck in prequel-city
Hate this with a passion. Loved how the series used to be interconnected and moving forward, but that really seemed to stop and you see this more and more. Doubt we'll ever again see an MGS take place after 4 for example or a Devil May Cry after 2 had they not just retconned it.

Doesn't help that Fusion ends with a pretty interesting setting. Samus is on the run.

Not just on the run. She has a cool new suit! Especially like how the arm spikes seem to protrude even more... the mind wanders at what really cool new elements Metroid 5 could have. There's absolutely no restrictions. Space Pirates won't be the sole enemy yet again. She doesn't have the same suit she had in every other game and not exactly the same suit she had in Fusion.

Prime 4 is cool and all but... Metroid 5's what I really want. And on top of that I prefer the 2D games anyway.

Yeah that's I think also the reason they haven't touched it, which is sad, just so much options! Also in terms of new Metroid esque abilities, her X-abilities (she sort of fused with them too near the end) - the sky is the limit.

> Prime 4
I really wonder what's going on with that title and what we'll get. The Prime games were an interesting growth in that they were each sort of unique with different focuses. Wonder if 4 will be a big departure and how it will bring Phazon back (since that was sort of the main antagonist of Prime).

I started an Okamiden challenge run yesterday but stopped at the first save point when I realized this game only has one save slot.

I have a 100% save I can take into NG+ and while Okamiden has way less combat stuff than Okami, there are still things I wanted to document.

Now at this point I am just playing survival mode in any game or I am just repeating a level to just fight enemies again. I'm really having trouble progressing through games. I play a lot more than I finish.

I finished playing Ghost Trick. The game is simply amazing, most fun I've had with a new franchise in years.

Still debating on whether I should replay Chrono Trigger, finish Mega Man Zero 3-4, or play either Okamiden, Zelda: ALBW or TWEWY for the first time.

>Ghost Trick

That's a great game! Directed by the same guy that did Ace Attorney, and it really shows in how it's written. I have really fond memories of playing it with my sister back when I was 8, even if I didn't really understand what was happening in the story.

Finally beat the story of DQB2. Now I just have to build enough gratitude to get the last island and recipes, then I can retreat to my own personal island and build what I want.

One thing I dislike is how the main story island you own has these tablets in each area with various goals like build certain rooms, plant certain crops, etc. Some just absolutely suck to do and you have to do them to get or upgrade your tools. I'm slowly working through them while waiting for gratitude to build.

Finally got all the islands. Not many tablet targets to work through now. I'll complete all the lists like monsters, rooms and every other recipe/blueprint. Then I'll start working on a house. It's going to be one of the houses I grew up in and loved. I remember every inch of it. I've started drawing rough blueprints in my notebook and have a pretty good idea of how to recreate it.

Will also do our current place and maybe another I remember well.

Might even see about doing areas of games I like.

TheFirmament1 wrote:>Ghost Trick

That's a great game! Directed by the same guy that did Ace Attorney, and it really shows in how it's written. I have really fond memories of playing it with my sister back when I was 8, even if I didn't really understand what was happening in the story.

Glad you liked the game as well. The game is definitely a top 5 DS game, or heck, maybe a top 3 one. I'll have to think about it.

Finally finished playing my first PS2 action game; Viewtiful Joe. The game was super fun, Joe reminded me of Proto Man from the Mega Man series a little, and I found it hilarious how there's even refights in the game.

This is my ranking of the games I've played so far:

]

NOTE: I haven't played most of those games in years, if not decades. So they might end up lower/higher than they are at if I play them again, except KH2FM, RE4, and of course, VJ. And don't worry, I'm not planning to do this every single time I finish a game.

I used the same template that I posted here months ago. If any of you wants to mess around with it again, here it is:

https://tiermaker.com/create/general-action-games--267364

I might play Shinobi next.

Mine would look a bit like this, not too sure on some of the top ones but yeah about this. Viewtiful Joe is excellent ,really great game! Are you going to try the sequel?

Interesting list, didn't think RE3 would be on par with RE4. Makes me want to try it. Same as NGB and NG3 RE, I knew the latter was an improvement over the original, but I thought it was still far from Black and NG2 in terms of quality.

As for Onimusha, is Genma really that much of an improvement? I was surprised to see how big the gap is for these two.

And lastly, I thought you played Okami and Chaos Legion... guess not.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to ask, in which tier do you think Samurai Jack belongs in?

>Viewtiful Joe 2

I might try it, but not right now. Haven't heard good things about it, and I really want to try Shinobi.

I did 'play' Chaos Legion, in a sense that I got about halfway and then dropped it for something else. I don't consider that having played it. Did make one mistake in the list, ZoE2 was supposed to be in the top, somehow it went lower than that haha.

> NG3RE
It really is a fan-tas-tic game.

> Genma
Onimusha's base game is a fun action adventure game, Genma really ups it to a whole new level imo. Extra content is gold, the charge-moves are fantastic, skippable cutscenes *really* helps the game out too. One of the best "special editions" I've ever played.

> Shinobi
God that game is amazing, have fun man!

What made you put Kiwami 2 in the Disgraceful tier!? It's no Yakuza 0 but is it really that bad? I'm currently playing and enjoying it (or maybe it's my addiction to the Cabaret club mini-game talking...)

>As for Onimusha, is Genma really that much of an improvement?

Yes and every copy of the original version should be destroyed.

>And lastly, I thought you played Okami and Chaos Legion... guess not

I'm sure he has them lined up. When are they opening international flights up anyway?

>I did 'play' Chaos Legion, in a sense that I got about halfway and then dropped it for something else. I don't consider that having played it.

If only these know nothing, mechanically blind games 'journalists' could think like this.

>Stuff that's the best because I play it

Building my house in DQB2 now. Finally.
Got a new tool that let's you place and destroy items from a distance. Useful in cramped areas and for placing stuff in higher places. I have a sabre cat for that though which is easier. It can double jump like 6 blocks high. When you're building a house you need to be on the walls viewing from above often.

It's harder than I thought. I found out pretty fast that you need to build to the scale of the items or it looks weird. I started making a room that was 10×10 but when I placed the bed which is only 2×2 it was so tiny in the corner. The rooms appeared cavernous because remember the characters in this game are all midgets.

The trick was to build around the items. It's cramped but when I stopped and thought about it our house is actually like that.

A lot of demolishing and rebuilding. Making one small mistake that puts everything off. But it's immense fun.

There are tons of materials but they are largely medieval. The modernist pack offered a few modern things like sinks, pipes and a few gadgets. Half the fun is using these limited materials to get the result you want. I actually went around our house taking photos from every angle.

A few things annoy me though. One is how a house has the plaster inner wall, then the outer wall. Ours is brick on the outside. So I have to basically have to have two walls and these are made out of those cubes. If you've played something like Minecraft you'll see what I mean. I started with the inner walls first then it was easy to apply the brick over the outside. I also did the foundation legit, with a concrete base, wooden floorboards, the another generic block the color of carpet.

When I'm finally done I'll see about taking some snapshots and posting here.

Yeah I should've iterated, this is just "how much did I enjoy this title and how likely am I to replay it", not anything objective. YK2 is a fine game, I just didn't enjoy it at all and it's the only Yakuza game I didn't finish.

> international flights
I'm not even allowed to see my parents a.t.m., though I'm sure the pandemic can make an exception for Chaos Legion.

>Genma's improvements

I see. This reminds me of KH2 and KH2FM, in the sense that there is zero reason to ever play the former with the latter existing. Still, KH2 would go in-between the ''Good'' and ''Mediocre'' tier for me. Most of the important mechanics are there, but the game is extremely easy.

>Genma and KH2FM

Yeah, I’d say that’s a fair comparison. I got the PS4 release of Onimusha after having played Genma to death and couldn’t even bring myself to finish it once, felt like I was playing a prototype.

>tier list

I also made one but kind of in the mindset of “I’ll just rank the games based on how much I enjoy playing them in the moment and not think about it”. More and more I’m about seeing how much fun I have with the game, or how much I naturally think about it, rather than analyzing it after the fact.

Just finished up another Dead Space 2 run. Will go so far as to say I think the game is a masterpiece. Incredible weapons, great enemies, amazing scenarios, excellent details akin to RE4/TEW, does the whole Kinesis thing better than some games who use it as its main selling point(Control), the delimb system is layered with multiple possibilities(it also makes me realize the delimb system in RE2make is a super watered down version of this). Also it’s funny how GoW2018 marketed its “one shot” camera when this game already did that. The game also has a beautiful compromise to Doom 3’s flashlight(the light comes out when aiming your gun). Just so many little things. Godlike game.

> Kiwami 2

To be fair, the combat for an action game isn't particularly good. The absence of the style system hurts, and it feels like there are fewer heat actions, unless I just haven't unlocked them. The ragdoll mechanics are a novelty at best as they are sometimes humourous. I've found you can get through most bosses using the 2 charged attacks and your heat actions, so there really isn't much to it.

I like the story and presentation though, and it's a very pretty game on PC. Yakuza is probably the only open world/sandbox series where I actually enjoy doing the side content. I think the localisation team do a great job of "westernising" the script, but retaining the game's very Japanese personality.

> Tier List

I could make a tier list but honestly, I've still got so many games in the genre to play. I could imagine if I replayed titles that I'd change what tier I'd put them in, so I almost feel like it's a bit redundant.

Oof... Tier lists... Definitely don't feel like I can make one yet.

>Dark Souls 2
Ah, so you're one of those. I haven't done the DLC yet, but to be honest, I'm pretty lukewarm on what I've played.

>ZoE2
Huh? You put it in your trifecta of "best action games ever" along with Vanquish, and Ninja Gaiden 2... Why isn't it on top tier?

>Force Unleashed
Didn't realize that you liked it that much.

>Metal Gear Rising
I remember you liking that one a lot more... Recently re-evaluate it or something?

>Yakuza 6 and Kiwami 2
I hear a lot of hate for those two games. Someone mind explaining?

> I’ll just rank the games based on how much I enjoy playing them in the moment and not think about it

That's basically what this is for me too, like I have made numerous of these in the past and I just always have a different one haha. I think the most important question I ask myself though when putting it somewhere is how eager I am to put the disc in just thinking about it. If I'd really have to analyze, like a genuine "how good is this game", the list would look totally different. NG:B would be at the top for sure in that one.

> YK2

It didn't help that I'd already played the original a few times so the story was of no surprise to me. There's some super cool scenes in there and barring some of the terrible plot choices, the romance and bromance going on there is outstanding. Ruji really is the best villain we've had in the series imo.

> Dark Souls II
Oh yes, I am haha! But only Scholars, the vanilla one is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssssssss imo haha

> ZoE2
As noted, that was an error on my part, should be at the top but I probably made a mistake dragging them all around as much.

> force unleashed
The giant fanwank I did in my article didn't convince you ? But yeah I love the game, it has a lot of flaws but its grab system is unmatched imo and it really nails in terms of aesthetics and lore what made Star Wars so cool to me as a kid.

> MGR:R
It was my first 'real' action game, so I naturally have a lot of love for it. But the more I play it and revisit it the more things I find that are just a bit out of wack. Fantastic game though but not top 10 for me.

> Y6 K2
Sounds like a popgroup haha. That aside, the Yakuza 6 topic probably has this in spades so I'll keep it brief. The entire engine changed. Yakuza used to be a 3d beat'm up with cool moves and fun finishers. Y6 made everything a bit more 'real' with ragdolls, less moves, less heatmoves and bigger emphasis on giant group fights. The entire 'feel' of the game was different as well (Kiryu was more floaty I felt). It wasn't nearly as arcadey, removal of equippable weapons didn't help matters either. Didn't help that Yakuza 6 had an absolutely terrible story imo.

> Kiwami 2

Finished it last night. I enjoyed the story, even though I found the last few minutes of the plot to be... just weird. Like they were written by someone else. I won't elaborate for spoiler reasons. I agree on the above point on Ryuji, but I think Kuze from Y0 might just pip him as the best villain of the games I've played so far. Combat was a step back compared to 0 and K1. Couldn't tell you how many health items I used on the final chapter of K1, and in the final chapter of K2 I think I might have used 1 max. The contrast in difficulty between the two is crazy. All you need to do is use the charged attacks and you can basically stun lock the bosses by repeating the loop as they stand up after being knocked down. Throw in some heat actions if you're feeling a bit exotic. I'm starting to think the combat might be the one thing I don't particularly like about Yakuza titles. I enjoy the stories and still want to play through the rest of them, but I'm not sure how high I'd rank them purely as "action" titles. I watched some gameplay of the original Y2 and it looks more cohesive, so I might play it after I've beaten the rest. Going to take a break from the series for now, but Y3 on PS4 will be up next.

Yakuza 3 on Hard has the best combat in the series for me, there's quite a lot to its simplistic approach to combat-design. Curious to hear your thoughts on it eventually!

I remember my playthrough of Y6 was mostly me grabbing guys and doing the spin attack to hit everyone nearby since most attacks sucked. Got the same vibe from K2 so I didn’t even finish it. Seeing the same heat animations over and over again was tiring too.

>Yakuza combat isn’t very good for an action game

I’m more and more inclined to agree with this as I play the remastered versions of 3/4/5. They’re still good, but I really do like this series for its supporting stuff, like the story and the music, more than I initially thought. I also got Judgement recently and the combat is really not doing it for me.

>ZoE2

Anyone who doesn’t have this as top tier probably just hasn’t played it. 

>MGR

I’ve always thought this was an opinion that would get me crucified, but I really don’t enjoy this one much either. If it wasn’t for its over the top style and Armstrong, it would be close to the bottom for me. Come to think of it, I really don’t like Platinum that much. The only game of theirs that I really love is Vanquish.