Metal Gear Solid 2

I feel this needs its own topic because it’s legendary. I’m back into speedrunning it on the HD collection so if anyone wants to talk strats or tech, do so here!(I doubt anyone is playing this but oh well).

https://youtu.be/4dmq0L5mnK4

Some interesting stuff that I’ve never thought of in this run. Firing the UPS to immediately start up an alert and avoid the potential to be shot at was brilliant, as was colliding with the guard in Strut F to buy enough time before exiting the area. Using the wall peek for iframes during the fight with Fortune was also something I never knew about.

Legendary game indeed.

MGS3 is by far my favorite MGS game overall, but 2 is probably my favorite of the old-school, top-down camera, arcadey stealth ones. Great story too, obviously. I've never speedrun it, but I did platinumed it (twice!) when the HD collections came out, which was easier said than done! Those damn VR missions at the end...

3 is my favorite game ever but this is up there too. This game has a lot of little tricks and nuance that aren’t in the others. 3 is probably more deep but this game still has so much of its own craziness  that you just can’t get elsewhere.

>platinum twice
Hey, same here! I thought I was crazy haha.

>VR missions
Those missions as MGS1 snake are brutal, the lack of radar also doesn’t mesh well with the games camera. VR missions are my go-to mode when I just want to play the series, though.

Finally bust out a copy of this game. Was at a shop waiting for my wife to finish groceries (only one allowed in), and saw both ZoE2 and MGS2 for the PS2 for only a tenner a pop. I have been taking it very slow as promised. I try to only play it when I have at least 2 hours of playtime available in a sitting. I call codecs whenever something weird happens. I explore, try and derp with the guards, watch every cutscene.

So far the two biggest lessons that I learned from online that made the game much more enjoyable for me are 1) this isn't SC, so running doesn't make a ton of sound, making it more arcadey which I like. 2) if you knock a guard out, you should tranq them after, as this makes them wake up without raising the alarm.

I just finished the tanker and met Pliskin for the first time after about 3 hours of 'play'. I like the game best when it just offers me long stretches of gameplay like the tanker section. Raiden really feels like a solid middlefinger but also insert of the player themselves, saying they have "VR experience" i.e. gaming experience. Interesting stuff. Cannot imagine experiencing this firsthand. I assume there's no way to play as Snake the whole game somehow? I heard something about 'Snake tales', is that worth it? Or would you say "Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance" isn't worth it in general?

Royta/Raeng wrote:I assume there's no way to play as Snake the whole game somehow?

No, since that would kind of defeat the entire purpose of the story. The protagonist swap is positively brilliant in my opinion, and I'm always a bit disappointed at the entitled backlash it received from players who weren't receptive to anything other than a straightforward Hollywood action story. The rest of the series has never been quite as bold afterwards.

PS: MGS2's story builds on MGS1's in many respects. It might not have the same impact if you aren't already familiar with the first one.

Royta/Raeng wrote:I heard something about 'Snake tales', is that worth it? Or would you say "Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance" isn't worth it in general?

As far as I'm concerned, Substance is extremely worth playing for everything except the Snake Tales, which are horrendously designed B-team non-canon bullshit side-missions with atrocious writing. They offer nothing of value, skip at any cost. The VR missions on the other hand are great!

Don't get me wrong, this stuff is extremely interesting and I like how Raiden is basically the 'player insert' as it seems. I assume the Tanker section was also just Raiden, playing what happened in VR as perperation?

Like how the game kind of throws you in as well and doesn't have the game 'start' until you get control of Raiden (showering you with tutorials). Interesting twist. Also like the camera a lot more than I thought I would. Game plays nothing like I imagined it would compared to my experience with 1, 4, 5 and TS.

I haven't really been spoiled on the rest though, but have heard that this was originally intended to be the last one?

> MGS1
Played the first one through a few times and also finished TS on its highest setting. I still recall the story quite vividly. Just to be sure I watched a summery online though. Only thing right now that I don't get is why Occelot is possessed by Liquid's soul or something. While I know MGS4 did explain this, I assume it might be different here.

> never been so bold
Felt the 'twist' in MGS5 was very much trying to copy what they did here, though the bolder move was releasing that game unfinished one could say.

> entitled backlash
It's different, but the false marketing was a low blow I feel. Fitting, but I wouldn't enjoy getting trailer upon trailer these days of DMC6 starring Dante only to have Nero suddenly show up and the game not even have Dante playable. Still, I always love out-there tales like this. Very Morrison-esque if you're familiar with him.

>snake tales

They’re...ok. If you want straight up MGS2 gameplay goodness, I think the best thing is just becoming familiar with the game, cranking it to extreme, and skipping cutscenes. VR missions are great too though. Definitely recommend picking up Substance for VR missions if you end up enjoying the game.

>Raiden a player insert

That, and Kojima wanted to appea to a broader audience, so he made a character that would appeal to women. Raiden is annoying for most of the game but a lot of interesting things happen at the end, and I actually wound up liking him a lot.

>2 intended to be the last one

AFAIK, every MGS was supposed to be the last one. There was no planned sequel to 1, and then for 2, 3, and 4, Kojima said “this is my last MGS”, but no one would take the reigns after 2 so he can’t back to direct 3, and everyone wanted closure on 2’s story so he came back for 4.

>Liquid possessing Ocelot

I’ve always thought this was a dumb plot point, it’s explained in 3 but still pretty hard to buy.

>twist in 5

It was poorly done, you could see it coming, and the character you’re controlling in that game doesn’t even have a personality to begin with. The twist in 2 ties into the theme of the game(information control).

Somehow also getting massive Matrix vibes for whatever reason. Though that might be because I just watched M2 and M3 recently.

> every game supposed to be the last
Tends to be the hallmark of a great game. Pour all the passion in and no holds barred.

Royta/Raeng wrote:I assume the Tanker section was also just Raiden, playing what happened in VR as perperation?

No, the Tanker section definitely happened. Keep playing and you'll see how it all comes full circle.

Royta/Raeng wrote:Like how the game kind of throws you in as well and doesn't have the game 'start' until you get control of Raiden (showering you with tutorials). Interesting twist.

Well, you have already played a few hours with Snake in the Tanker section beforehand, correct? (Careful, it's possible to skip the Tanker section if you pick the wrong choices in the beginning.) In any case, there's also a story-based reason why you get tutorials for the Tanker as well as the Plant section.

Royta/Raeng wrote:Also like the camera a lot more than I thought I would.

Fixed camera systems get a horrible rep these days, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with them as long as the games they're in have been properly developed around them. MGS2 always shows you the necessary elements on-screen, which is the way it should be. No need to have the same cookie-cutter dual analogue setup in everything. Glad you like it!

Royta/Raeng wrote:I haven't really been spoiled on the rest though, but have heard that this was originally intended to be the last one? [...] Only thing right now that I don't get is why Occelot is possessed by Liquid's soul or something. While I know MGS4 did explain this, I assume it might be different here.

Yes. MGS2/3/4 (and V, of course) were all intended to be the final game in the series during development. And one of the interesting consequences of this is that they all try to tie the overarching narrative very neatly in their own way. In the case of Liquid Ocelot, 2 leaves it a bit vague (much in accordance to some of the rest of the game's themes), then 3 very subtly tries to hint at a complementary explanation, and then 4 throws most of that out of the window and opts for a very different (and imo lesser) explanation.

Royta/Raeng wrote:Felt the 'twist' in MGS5 was very much trying to copy what they did here.

Unfortunately, that is correct. One of the many things that I found to be underwhelming about TPP.

Royta/Raeng wrote:It's different, but the false marketing was a low blow I feel. Fitting, but I wouldn't enjoy getting trailer upon trailer these days of DMC6 starring Dante only to have Nero suddenly show up and the game not even have Dante playable.

I take your point, although it would feel completely out of place and like a cheap stunt for arbitrary shock value in DMC when considering the rest of the series very straightforward fantasy narrative pedigree. I think Kojima was a lot more justified in trying to square that particular circle. The problem is that MGS1's comparatively subtle message, for better or for worse, flew over a lot of young players' heads who only wanted a simplistic shooty bang bang type of game, and so they took it personally when the sequel criticized their own military hero worship in a more direct fashion.

There are some things that went wrong in its execution, but conceptually, I think MGS2 is a masterpiece.

Cambell had to come to the rescue for me to explain to baby-Raeng how to kill Fatman haha. Was running around for 5-10 minutes straight trying to get a headshot in and I just couldn't get it to work properly. Ended up getting a call from him just straight up telling me "shoot him until he falls idiot" which was fun.

Lots of game-overs so far and sloppy play. Think a subsequent run will go better.

> tanker
Did some googling but quit due to fear of spoilers, but apparently there are a lot that also thinks so. Something to do with a game-over screen in FPS mode or something that hints at it. Not going to google anymore, for risk of spoilers.

PS: Stillman's death hit me hard.

Been talking some Fatman stuff with SBK and he linked me this. My mind is blown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnahaQ268lg

Was gonna say, shooting his canckles are always the way to go for me. Whatever you do, don’t let him set his second set of bombs on E Extreme, I believe he plants 5 and depending on the placement it can be really difficult to get them in time.

MGS2 is a wild ride man. 2 and 3 are some of my favorite first play throughs in gaming.

Finished MGS2.

Had a horrible run overal haha, nearly 20 deaths after the harrier trying to make that jump towards the AK-supressor. Generally speaking though had a good time with the game. Some boss-fights, like Vamp, are still a bit unclear to me but I think with practice I can get it down. Think that playing the game as a more 'action' game really helped as well as viewing the game on a 'room by room' basis, where leaving a room basically resets things.

Earlier on I was really playing it the Splinter Cell way e.g. going slow, crawling constantly. Now I played it more action.

Some notes in random order:

- the controls require more complex finger-gymnastics than playing DMC4 at the highest level. Fight me. I like how absolutely bonkers it is and allows for so many ways of handling things, to the point that you can peak in lockers and bumb your head which is really neat.
- loved the details. You can close lockerdoors by leaning into them for example, or you can tranq Snake when he's providing Sniper support and then call him on Codec for a fun bit. Game was chock full of details like that.
- took a (long) time for me to realize how to walk and shoot (just hold L1)..
- Tanker and Shell1 are still the highlights for me gameplay-wise. Felt Shell2 really is where the game gets dull in terms of gameplay. The swimming, the recreation of the shadow-moses nikita event (I know it's part of the plot), the assist of EE, it just didn't sit well with me for the most part gameplaywise and I'm already dreading those parts.
- I got big Leon vibes from Raiden, especially when he was with EE. The way they talk, the way he comforts her, the way she puts up a strong face, the little quips like "and if I say no?" etc. They even have the same boyish charm. Have to admit Raiden grew on me and I might even prefer him to Snake in terms of personality. Especially for admitting near the end that he really has nothing he believes in, when quoting Snake and finding he just follows whatever truths he feels align or should 'fit' him.
- part where you see the dogtags of your username near the end, which I used my real name for this time, was a great touch.
- really enjoyed the very little mechanics like cover/ledge hopping giving i.frames, costume removing fire damage (bug?), toying with guards etc.
- great OST. Shame it was revealed to be plagarized iirc.

I went into the story mostly blank. While I knew the Patriots were an AI due to having played MGS4 the rest was kind of a blur and I knew there was a 'twist'. It still gave me goosebumbs when Cambell dropped the veil.

While it did come over as jumping the shark, I do feel that it was perfectly done. The whole game subtly builds up to the reveal that nothing is what it seems and the themes are well built up throughout. Feel that this really is one of those rare tales like Flex Mentallo that can only be told in its respective medium. If this was a movie, it wouldn't work.

I half expected the Coronel to just say "Kill Solidus, he's the final boss, it is what you're conditioned to do" near the end. Snake basically saying that we should play the game again to make new memories with it was also a neat touch. It mostly boggles my mind how this game survived translation so well, you'd think a metanarrative like this would absolutely crumble under translation (especially at the time). It was also very respectfully done. There were times when it was just on the border of going to far, like with the dogtags, where I thought "If they look at the TV now, it goes too far", and they don't. Very well structured. Also like how it keeps you on the edge on what's real or not. The whole game could be VR (well, it actually is since it's a game), is Rose real? Do they meet for the first time near the end, or not? Is Raiden even real? What's going on. Love that sort of 'all options are equally possible' narrative instead of one that spells it out for you.

In terms of the Patriots plans, pretty shocked to see this game be so on the mark. While I'm far from a conspiracy theorist, you could see this thing actually happening right now under our noses. Information does flow more freely and censorship is happening, and what they say of 'truths' is very real. In a way, Solidus is the hero of the story in my eyes, a man fighting for freedom be it for the most selfish reason (legacy).

All in all, really happy I finally gave the game a fair shake.

Not sure what to do now though, as the game is chucking options at me. I assume Tank+Plant Hard With Radar is the way to go? Should I keep using the radar? What about the option "alert fase is a gameover"? Interested to hear responses.

On a side note: this game is living proof that you can have your cake and eat it too. Great gameplay, great story.

>finished MGS2

You’re 19 years late, but congrats.

>playing more as an action game

This is why, in another topic, I said I think of this series as more of a hybrid of stealth and action, and not a stealth series. On the surface it’s obviously a stealth game, especially with the way it keeps track of alerts and kills, but the pace and details surrounding encounters give it an action flavor.

>room by room basis

Note that if you go into a room with alert or caution raised, you can die to reset it to get the AI and routes back to normal.

>finger gymnastics

This is a reason it’s hard to sell the series to newer to players, the controls are extremely unconventional and hard to get used to. If I didn’t have years and years of muscle memory I can’t imagine how long it would take me to get good at some maneuvers.

>chock full of details

Never played a game with more details, aside from maybe its sequel. The hidden codec calls alone amount to a ton of fun dialogue, like seeing snake in a box outside of Strut C, shooting pigeons, calling Campbell while getting pissed on, etc. Please tell me you did at least one groin punch in your playthrough.

>tanker and shell1

It’s largely agreed that the harrier fight is when the game goes through a big shift, up that point it’s almost all sneaking with some tutorials and boss fights, then shell 2 comes along and we get a bunch of weird set pieces and the game ends on a boss rush. You have the sneaking around the shell 2 core, swimming, Nikita part, more swimming, escort mission, sniping, empty backtracking, and then two big fights and two bosses. It’s certainly a weird shift and my biggest problem with the game. 3 basically had perfect pacing throughout imo, but 2 arguably has some of the higher highs.

>ost plagiarized

Only the main theme was plagiarized I think, the melody shares a similarity to a piece by a Russian composer.

>if it was a movie it wouldn’t work

Which is exactly one reason the fanbase is as rabid as it is. It’s not like most games that journos and casuals think are art, it really is a game that needs to be experienced as a game and with an open mind.

>crumble under translation

The main translator for this game actually took a bit of liberties with it, as she felt Kojima’s writing wasn’t the best. This could be a case where the translator interfering is part of why it turned out so good.

>all options are equally possible

It gets even weirder when you play the VR missions as both Snake and Raiden, for me it actually made me look at the main game a little differently. Most of the time I got the vibe that Snake is the one in the story who wasn’t real.

>censorship and information flow

The way it essentially talks about things like social media is uncanny. It actually freaks me out.

>what’s next

Yes, Tanker+Plant on Hard is probably the next step. I recommend keeping the radar on, since the game is built with it in mind. Without the radar you feel as if you don’t have enough information to assess guard patrols/visibility. This was remedied a lot in the sequels but the small environments and enemies being able to see you peak around corners doesn’t do you any favors until you really are familiar with the game. Note that quantity of enemies, as well as their routes change as you go up in difficulty. There are also more guards that make regular status report updates.

>game over if discovered

I would add that in as a difficulty modifier once you’ve cleared extreme.

>great gameplay, great story

And great level design, great art and graphics, great music, great boss fights, great everything...I’m not a fanboy, I swear.

> i'm late
How's that Master Ninja run of NGII going :p?

> the pace
Think that's more it, but also how gamey it feels. It is chock full things that you wouldn't seen in other games, but is quite interesting here. The AI is, well, blind. And dumb. But in a fantastic way. Splinter Cell is tense because the guards don't follow strict rules, so you're never 100% sure what will happen. Here, if the guard stands at X, and you knock the wall at Y, he will always follow the same path. This allows for cool routing I'd imagine which is neat and makes it more like a very efficient action game.

> room by room
Also allows for fun ways to conserve ammo. Doing the dog-tags now which is...strangely addictive. Usually I shoot enemies down but if I'm close to a door I just 'throw' them (is that the term?) and bolt for the door.

> controls
I actually just straight up tanked a grenade while in first person mode to shoot while standing on my toes, since I legit didn't know what button to let go of. It gets weird haha.

> details
Was derping around in the videopresentation section, mashing the button, only to have a half naked lady suddenly present herself and from that moment on all guards didn't have any pants anymore.

NOTE: what causes the sneezing? Anything in particular?

> post harrier
Yeah had that feeling too. The Sniper section felt weird, and I still feel the item usage to make the sniper 'not ass' is weird.

> 3 has a better pace
I'm pretty fond of the camera right now I have to say, would you say it's worth it to play the base version of MGS3?

> open mind
This especially. Note that this was the fourth time I set myself out to play this game and I just couldn't get through it.

> Kojima's writing isn't the best
I can understand that. Man probably needs a good editor. Great ideas though.

> Snake isn't real
Disregarding the fact that there's a sequel, so let's assume MGS2 was the last one, I honestly feel that Snake wasn't real in this game. He served as a constant motivator for Raiden and thus the player, and a pillar to aspire to. Guy even has a longer healthbar and infinite ammo (his AI was trash though, guy kept dying in the Tengu part).

> ost plagarized
Yeah I said ost, but should've just specified that track.

> social media way before it was real
His persiflation of 'corporations more powerful than governaments', 'police for hire' and 'Senator Armstrong' in MGR:R were also on the mark. Though IIRC that was from the writer of Peacewalker. I don't think anything in the series will ever top Armstrong. That guy. Man.

But yeah also covers a lot of theories like flat earth, moonlanding, 'false news' and massive censorship in a sense. Don't look for truth, you look for truth that fits your narrative. It's shockingly well exectured. Didn't expect this kind of narrative in videogame honestly, last time I had this good a story experience that went beyond "fun story" was Spec Ops The Line.

> status update guards
I had a question about this, is every guard like this? Or is there a way to discern which guard does this or not?

> great art
Yoji's a great artist and one my academy teacher pushed into my hands at the time as "you like ink, look at this guy". Love his designs. There's a sort of industrial feel to it, like it's from a factory.

> great bosses
Fatman was the best imo with Olga the second. The rest were honestly really mediocre for me, mostly since they were so singular, kind of similar to Zone of the Enders 2. You just do the thing you're supposed to and go at it. Maybe this will change on subsequent runs, but bosses like Ray, Solidus, Vamp and Harrier just didn't do it for me at all.

Royta/Raeng wrote:
NOTE: what causes the sneezing? Anything in particular?

I think it's when you spend over a minute out in the rain before entering the Tanker.

Royta/Raeng wrote:
I'm pretty fond of the camera right now I have to say, would you say it's worth it to play the base version of MGS3?

3's default camera leaves a lot more to be desired than 2's. In 2 there is never really any need to look beyond the limitations of the screen. But it's not uncommon to be spotted by off-screen guards and other frustrations in 3, especially given the camo system.

But the good thing about Subsistence is that it allows you to switch between the two camera systems at will. So if you're gonna play 3, I would strongly recommend picking up Subsistence for all the extras. And honestly, I think you should probably pick up Substance for your future MGS2 playthroughs as well. The extras are totally worth it (well, except Snake Tales) and I have no idea why you would settle for the lesser vanilla versions. It's not like NG2 where there are some very good reasons for playing NG2 instead of NGS2.

The reason I bought the original is mostly because I found it while browsing the store I mentioned and thought "why not". I'll see if I can find it since it's a lot more rare and expensive here than the original version. Is there any difference between the covers? There's one with Raiden and Snake on it but also one with Ocelot on the cover that's nearly 30 bucks more expensive. Some sort of collectors edition?

Royta/Raeng wrote:Is there any difference between the covers? There's one with Raiden and Snake on it but also one with Ocelot on the cover that's nearly 30 bucks more expensive. Some sort of collectors edition?

Absolutely no idea, first time I've even heard of it! The regular Raiden and Snake version has everything you need, though.

Oh, and most EU MGS3 versions have only one language, so be careful. German or french editions don't have any english text afaik. UK or NL all the way.

Good note on the languages. Sometimes I import since it's cheaper.

EDIT: is there anyway to unlock all difficulties off the bat in that version, or do you always have to beat Normal first?

In terms of gameplay(mechanics), how well does MGS1 and TS hold up? I don't own either anymore, but would be interested in giving them another shot if they are also at this level. Or where they more simplistic?

MGS1 is no where near the other games. The lack of first person aiming and targeting areas of the body removes a lot of options. No hold ups. No vaulting over ledges. Missing a lot of tools of weapons(it doesn’t even have a tranq gun). No picking up bodies. Boss fights are more simple.

As for TS, it is similar to MGS2 but contains MGS1’s arsenal. The problem is that MGS1/TS is a much smaller game, and doesn’t have a lot of enemies/encounters, that game is really more like the last act of MGS2, stretched out to the entire game.

>unlocking difficulties

I believe you have to beat the game once in every entry in the series to unlock the highest difficulty.

MGS1 definitely holds up as long as you approach it as a simple top-down (almost Pac-Man-esque) stealth game. Only use weapons when necessary and try to sneak your way through every area through proper positioning only. It's rudimentary, but it works perfectly well. Plus the story is great (if not on the level of either 2 or 3 imo) and the setting is one of the best and most memorable in the series. Certainly worth playing.

TS is a bit of a mess. The addition of MGS2's gameplay mechanics doesn't mesh very well with the MGS1's level and encounter design, plus some of the new cutscene direction can be really jarring and poorly thought out. They turned Snake into a borderline super hero in some of these, which misses the point of the entire series, I think. Nice to have in the collection but I mostly ignore it these days in my semi-regular series replay.

Yeah as noted I played both of them as a teenager, but honestly I'm quite vague on my experiences with them. I know I beat both on the highest setting but that really was in the time I just burst through games in a week and went to a new one since I just had gotten a good paying weekend job.

And MGS4 and 5? I felt 5 played more like your typical stealth game like Splinter Cell. Got the Big Boss emblem in 4 but honestly that game is also very vague in my memory. I remember really liking the game's mechanics and how detailed Snake's movement options were, but ended up just barely using any of them. What's your guy's opinion on those two?

MGS4 is great but it has massive pacing issues, out of the 5 acts only 2 of them have a lot of core gameplay. The game has a lot more weapons and maneuvers than the other titles but there’s a good bit of overlap in the arsenal and there isn’t enough encounters to use all of the different tools in. It streamlined and discarded some aspects of MGS3, to varying success. I’m not a fan of the removal of food and some of the camo abilities, but the octocamo is nice for people who didn’t like going into the menus. It has some unique aspects to the series, like the conflicts in acts 1 and 2, which raise your camo level but can cause you to get hit by stray bullets. A lot of the details are still there but it’s not as arcadey gamey as the other titles. The boss fights are also a huge step down from 3, and the story goes off the rails. But I’d still say it’s pretty fantastic.

5 does play like more of a standard AAA open world/western stealth game. It retains a bit of the MGS charm and details but it also lost a lot in translation. Alert system is completely changed, and for the worse. Areas are so open that sniping on a hill is OP 99% of the time. There’s mobile game crap shoved into the upgrade system. Mother base is a huge missed opportunity. Boss fights mostly suck. There’s no difficulty selection(tragic). The open world really drags the game down, making you run for a few minutes to the mission every time. Very little actual level design. But there’s more technical issues too, like enemies not standing up slower as they reach stun, snake no longer having smoke grenades affect his aim, etc. Throwing bodies at people is funny though.

Interesting that Inf_ would go straight into the mechanical analysis whereas my brain instantly went into the narrative side of things when reading that question.


MGS4 is a fantastically flawed game. I think its main defining feature is a complete lack of restraint when it comes to storytelling, they really threw everything they got at the wall in this one. The result is very uneven and all the usual strengths and weaknesses of the series are being put under the microscope, so to speak. It falls into the trap of trying to tie every single loose end in the series and has some excruciatingly long cutscenes filled with pointless explanations of utterly irrelevant stuff and some truly cringe-worthy moments as a result thereof. But it also has some of the greatest character-building moments and most powerful tear-jerking, fist-pumping narrative pay-offs in any medium. A worthy trade-off in my eyes.

Gameplay-wise, I would argue with the broader consensus of it not having enough room for the player to make the best out of the incredibly rich set of core mechanics past the first two acts. Although I'm not a big fan of the faction system and actually have a soft spot for Act 3 (probably my favorite in the game, and that's not something you'll hear very often!). I think the bosses get a bit of a bad rap, though. Crying Wolf in particular is an amazing sniper fight, second only to The End in my eyes. Laughing Octopus and Screaming Mantis are pretty cool too, and the RvR and Liquid Ocelot fights are absolutely incredible.

All in all, it's a less elegant and more bloated and flawed game than the first three. But it's definitely worth playing for its incredible highlights alone. And if nothing else, it is the most "Metal Gear" one of the bunch. Warts and all. :D


MGSV holds the tragic distinction of being a game which I think has probably the most refined mechanical structure of any stealth and open world game on the market, as well as being one of the most disappointing experiences I've ever had. Mechanically, it's superb. But unfortunately there is more to gameplay than just mechanics and it's guilty of most of the usual open world trappings of being filled with pointless checklist-style "content" and uninspired side-missions, uneventful downtime and a complete lack of proper encounter design. Playing it for ten minutes is grandiose. Playing it for five hours is a chore. It also only has one semi-decent boss (two if we're being super-generous) and they are simply lesser versions of the others in the series they are clearly inspired by, so it's a massive letdown in that regard as well.

Gameplay-wise, I think Ground Zeroes is probably a better overall package than TPP, which is ludicrous to think about. There is nothing in the main game that lives up to the impeccable level layout of Camp Omega or its inventive side-missions. Make of that what you will.

Story-wise, it completely squanders its own potential (and impeccable cutscene direction). The handful of interesting narrative beats get lost in-between all the irrelevant guff, characterization is massively inconsistent and all over the place, it lacks a proper central theme like the others, the OST is limp, retcons are dumb, Quiet is completely embarrassing. It has a few great moments and some interesting political elements, but those end up lost in the shuffle, unfortunately. It also suffers massively from having been released in a clearly unfinished state with some of its most crucial plot strands left without any proper resolution.

I still remember vividly the "wait... that's it??"-feeling I had in the pit of my stomach after finishing it back in 2015. As a massive fan of the series, it was borderline soul-crushing despite the undeniable quality of some of its elements (fluid moveset and varied mechanical options, superb FOX engine, cutscene cinematography). Haven't gone back to it since.

My rancor towards this game comes entirely from me being an unhinged MGS lunatic. From a purely videogame perspective, I think V is totally worth playing.


In any case, since you liked the story in 2 so much, I think you owe it to yourself to (re-)play the entire series starting with MGS1, at least until 4. Truly the kind of unforgettable of experience I think every person with an interest in video games should have at least once. And you would probably appreciate them a lot more playing them as an adult.

Bought MGS2:S and really enjoying it a lot again. The skateboarding is weird but fun. And I like that you don't need to unlock the bonus stuff. Did some VR missions (great stuff, why didn't MGR:R have this quality regarding VR?) and Snake Tales. ST is...weird. I kind of like how hard it is without radar and that non-lethal isn't a big option yet, pushing a different style, but you really miss the radar initially.

Also is it me or does the game...look better? I swear its resolution is better or something or is that my  mind screwing with me?

The VR missions are absolutely fantastic. Every character goes up in difficulty too which is nice. MGS1 Snake’s missions are insane, enemies can see you from the other side of the map and you don’t have a radar.

And yes, Substance does look a little better. Subsistence was also a noticeable improvement over Snake Eater.

You still playing this?

Yeah man, almost daily whenever I can. ALso doing some VR missions in between. Slightly rushing through Hard now and doing some Snake Tales.

https://www.gog.com/game/konami_collectors_series_castlevania_contra

Game got a re-release on PC out of nowhere on GOG. MGS2Substance as well as regular MGS. Absolutely blew me away. Wonder if we'll get mods down the line again, though I'm not sure the original PC release had this as well.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, they've fucked the controls on it.

The store page for MGS2 claims the Dualshock 4 doesn't work, and the triggers are unusable on Xinput (360/XB1) controllers, so they've come up with an... "alternative" control layout.

https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/360013441177?_ga=2.126220237.119840055.1601042479-1087187720.1600248206&product=gog

I'm trying to do a bit more research on these new releases, as I'm not sure if they've been properly fixed or if it's just the old games with the fan-made patches applied. I'm not paying KONAMI to releasr their broken shite that the fans have fixed, so I'm keeping my eye on these before I get excited. The controls linked above are enough to put me off buying, to be honest.

Did some more digging and apparently it is the old PC release as I thought, which had a lot of botched functionality. Probably going to have to wait for fan mods. What you buy here is apparently just the base game with some compatability patches, that's it.

Also note that they did remove Kojima's name from this version, including the credits from what I hear, which is just disgusting.

Bad controls, removed Kojima from the credits, buggy implementation. No thanks. Bad choices. If I want to play again, I'll stick to my console versions for this game.

9 years ago or so I tried the MGS series for the first time via the HD collection and MGS4 on PS3.

While all of them were interesting to me gameplay wise (I immediately skipped cutscenes), with MGS3 in particular leaving quite an impression on me, I was unbale to get into them due to their controls (and MGS4's poor framerate). I wasn't even aware of the pressure sensitive capabilities of the DualShock 2 and 3.

I have also played some of MGSV a few years ago and I remember loving it despite the open world, I recall the gameplay being amazing, in terms of both shooting and stealth.

Lately I have been interested in trying the series again, but before I do I have a few questions:

1. For MGS1 - Should I emulate the PS1 version, or should I go for the Twin Snakes but restricting myself by not using first person aiming?

2. MGS2+3 - Assuming I will get a DualShock 3 I will be able to:

A. emulate the PS2 versions - I'm leaning towards this option especially for MGS3 due to the amount of content that was removed from the PS3 version, and I'm almost sure there's a community server for the online.

B. emulate the PS3 versions or playing on an actual PS3.

C. playing the Xbox HD collection on my XSX with the non pressure sensitive controls.

I can live with some of the graphics inaccuracies of the HD versions as long as there aren't any gameplay or audio issues.

Considering all of this, which version should I go for? Are the Xbox controls any better or worse than the Playstation controls?

1) I'd honestly, unless you want to play the plot, skip this entry. While it's pretty decent for its time, it features very little of the mechanical intricacies on offer in MGS2 and 3 that makes it interesting to play for 'players like us' (bad term, but you get me). Twin Snakes offers these, but since they were haphazardly copied from MGS2 they are broken or have no real usage.

2) I'd emulate the PS2 release, or play the actual PS2 release if possible.

1) Just play the PS1 version. The enormous jumps the series made with 2 won’t be apparent if you start with Twin Snakes(which uses MGS2’s mechanics), and the only real reason to play the game is for the story, of which the original is better thanks to its voice acting. The gameplay is just really limited and lacking in encounters compared to later games.

2) I’ve never played the Xbox versions, and as someone who has played both titles well over 100 times, I don’t think the downgrades in the PS3 versions are significant enough to steer you away from them entirely. Just know that the PS2 version of 3 has framerate issues, while 2 is smooth no matter how you play it.

What did the HD collection version of MGS3 cut anyway? The secret theatre, the monkey minigame, the dream sequence and MGO?

It also cut the boss rush mode, which makes no sense.

so whats the definitive/best way to play mgs2? "pcsx2" or "rpcs3" or the "pc version (based on the OG xbox version of mgs2 substance) with fan made patches and fixes"


because so called "de-master collection" just fucking sucks

I don't know anything about pcsx2 or anything like it. The master collection is fine, I don't know why everyone seems to think it's the worst thing ever conceived. I've played almost every official release of the game and it's no different than the HD collection version aside from the aiming being mapped different to the controller because of the lack of pressure sensitivity.

If there's a way to play the PS2 version but at a higher resolution then I guess that would be the way to go, since the HD collection is missing the skateboarding minigame if you care about that.

nah I honestly I don't really care for the skateboard minigame.

picked up the master collection for mgs2 and 3. playing the new Hitman game got me in the mood to revisit my other favorite stealth games (MGS and Chaos Theory).

these are essentially going to be first playthroughs, i haven't played these games in fuckin forever. i've only ever played a demo of the first MGS-- my only memory of it is being in a vent smoking a cig item-- and decided to skip it again because you boys are saying it's not worth playing for the gameplay. i'll watch the cutscenes on youtube if someone tells me i should but i don't feel lost so far, currently in the very beginning ship part.

will post thoughts as i play them. i remember playing mgs3 a lot more than 2 even though i also loved 2, i'm guessing it's because there were more segments in 2 that i was a little 'eh' on.

MGS2 is fantastic, but they tend to seperate the game in 'pre-harrier' and 'post-harrier'. After the Harrier Bossfight the game really takes a nosedive for most, as it is a mix of backtracking, swimming, swimming escort, Ray-bossrush, ninja killing and more. It loses a lot of its original luster at that point imo.

MGS3 is just fantastic all-around. The only thing I dislike about it is the PAIN and RAGE boss, but that's more a skill issue than anything else tbh. Never could find an easy to execute setup against them that worked consistently.

>mgs2 nosedive

ah, that explains it

>mgs3 bosses

i remember thinking they were the greatest bosses of all time and getting really nerdy at them


mgs2 notes:

why am i like this? must have backtracked 4 fucking times through this ship to find the bridge.

found out you can't pause cutscenes via accidentally skipping the first boss cutscene  

neat little laser claymore puzzle, i like that you have to shoot right over a claymore with the last one

tanker section over

man, i really don't remember this game

took me like 2 minutes slipping on bird shit to find the little crawlspace to get off this roof

unorthodox controls took me a couple hours to get used to

i don't know exactly what's going on with everything but i think i get the general direction this is going. things are not as they appear, there's no president to save and i'm being misled here for some sort of nefarious agenda; all the VR stuff, the game is deceptive right out of the gate with the Snake bait-and-switch, as soon as the Shell section starts the tone is very different/unsettling. while Raiden was under the codename "Snake" and wearing that mask he sounded like he was in a trance and trying to do an impression of Snake, Raiden's definitely undergone some sort of brainwashing process.

all that combined with the cutscene where Raiden meets Snake and it going into Raiden's history with VR training put it together for me. Snake talked about the inadequacy of VR training, stuff like "you don't feel fear in a simulation because you know it's not real". this entire Plant section is an artificial mission to whatever degree, the next and final step after VR training and brainwashing; training that takes place in reality but, unbeknownst to Raiden, is still fake/training, constructed by his mysterious handler/agency with the goal being to produce a legendary soldier like Snake ("I feel like a legendary mercenary" as Raiden said in the beginning) but under their control.

also, the way the Colonel guy talks is really off, and Raiden's girlfriend being on the support team out of nowhere is fishy. don't know who's behind the Colonel but this character as presented is not real, not sure about Rose. people can let me know if i'm on the mark with all this but try not to spoil shit.

huge difficulty spike after the tanker section; no radar until you find the terminal in each area, the guard numbers and routes are tougher, and they send in the troops very quickly after you take out guards, forcing you to either get done with your business in the room fast, hide bodies (if you can), or ghost them entirely. feels very rare that you can take out guards without the status update situation (past the brief tanker section i mean), is there a way to tell the difference between the guards who give status updates and ones who don't?

these cutscenes/codec calls have increased my tobacco and snack consumption by 500%. not bored by them or anything, i'm just used to never, ever watching cutscenes.

the puzzles in this are good; clever enough to make you think and take up some of your time to find the solution but not so frustratingly obtuse that you turn to a guide.

i actually like post harrier more than pre harrier, pre harrier is all about disabling fatman bombs then fight fatman and then you get the disguise but oh no you dont have ak-74u so you have to backtrack to get the gun to reach ames in shell-1 core blah blah blah its fucking tedious, i like post harrier because i simply found shell 2 (2nd half of the game way more interesting than the first half). finding the president and escorting emma were still better than anything of the first half in mgs2. and dont get me even started on arsenal guts section of mgs2 (3rd/final act of mgs2 which is pretty much peak)

i respect but i also disagree with royta15 opinion to each on their own


as for mgs3, my only problem with this game was that theres no dogtag to collect like in mgs2. oh and the enemy ai is no where as advanced as mgs2

>pre-harrier and post-harrier
That’s how I’ve always thought of it too. Just like MGS1 is pre-Wolf 1 and post-Wolf 1.

>don’t like the Fury
One of my favorite bosses in the franchise, fantastic fight.

>mgs2 pause cutscene
I thought you could pause them in the master collection.

>something is off
They really do a wonderful of job of upping this feeling throughout the plant section. So many little things to pick up on as you revisit it.

>codec calls
It’s absolutely fucking insane how many optional codec calls there are too. There are multiple conversations between every character at every little point in the story. There has to be hours and hours of optional codec.

>bombs
What’s wrong with diffusing bombs? They’re stealth levels with an objective that has you being mindful of patrols who do status updates and going non lethal gives guards more time to wake up for more of a challenge. It’s some of the best sections in the series.

>post harrier
Is mostly gimmicks and retreading set pieces from MGS1.

>enemy AI in 3 is not as advanced as 2
Agreed, 2 did many things with the AI that no future games built upon.

i took a pause on my mgs2 playthrough to go back and play mgs1 first. found it to be a struggle to finish-- first of all, i've just lost my patience over the course of my life, and while the story, voice acting, and whatnot was impressive for its time (and the alert theme is incredible/iconic), there's barely any stealth and the gameplay does not hold up whatsoever. the leap from mgs1 to 2, in every single metric, is insane and i would have dropped 1 immediately if i wasn't committed to having the full context for the series.

>I thought you could pause them in the master collection

not that i know of, i tried "start" and it skipped. been too afraid to try again with another button.

>absolutely fucking insane how many optional codec calls there are

interesting, because i remember it being that way with 3, but here i was incredibly disappointed with the codec calls. i tried calling people a lot but the Colonel and Snake were all business and just told me what to do and where to go and provided help during bosses and that was that, and Rose had very little to say as well. i don't know how i missed all the cool shit.

mgs2 thoughts:

well now that i've played mgs1 the Colonel being fake in mgs2 isn't even a question, obviously that's not the same guy from the first. and in general, i can see the parallels between this game and the first now.

okay now i see the radios on their hip

Fatman: decent boss

i can't get a handle on the rules for tranq darts distracting guards, it's very inconsistent for me; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. the Socom bullets worked consistently (at least in the VR missions) and have more range but i missed the silencer in the campaign so i have to use the tranq in this playthrough.

my heart drops out of my ass every single time the Alert sound effect happens

if you try to cartwheel upstairs you fall on your ass, and with Snake you can't roll down or upstairs, good detail

is there a way to do anything in the Fortune boss "fight" or can you only wait it out?

that last switch behind the Sons of Liberty flag was clever

gotta love trying to save and quit the game but then Rose holds me hostage by unearthing some drama for 5 minutes while i need to take a piss

the subtitles getting bigger and smaller depending on where you're pointing the directional mic is a nice touch

harrier time

really lame boss that was

underwater section, everybody's favorite thing in games

game's tempting me to drown while looking at sexy posters  

the president/politicians are puppets and democracy is a joke? good thing this is just a game haha...

and backtracking through the underwater section again, okay

Vamp fight. the whole "he can dodge your bullets if you target him with auto-aim" puzzle and its justification through Vamp's powers was pretty clever.

and now the underwater section, again. for the 3rd time (thrice). but this time i have to escort someone who can barely walk and hold her breath  

Solidus is trying to take down the Patriots, what a badass. lemme step out of this dude's way.

yeah, i'm remembering/seeing why mgs3 was the game i replayed, 2 goes down the shitter as soon as you hit the harrier boss; horrible boss, nary a single stealth part past it, and all the bosses and setpieces except Vamp are terrible. the saving grace is that the story heats up from that point. this section is fine for one playthrough but all my replay value will come through VR missions and restarting the campaign at the harrier.

how long do i have to drag Emma around and was this necessary? and was it necessary to have her legs fucked up?

sniping section. i really don't appreciate how Emma takes so. fucking. long. to cross these things, and how the game spits on you for getting shit done ahead which you'd think that'd be the point, but guards pop out of the woodwork as soon as she's about to land on one of those things and the flying robot things respawn, not to mention she has little health. if she died on me i would have lost my shit.

the Otacon/Emma subplot is surprisingly sad

the guy voicing Otacon is an extremely convincing crier

her bird saying "Hal, i miss you" after she dies   brutal

>MGS1
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way about it. It's an iconic game but it's a very rare case where the sequel ends up making it almost obsolete. As you said, the leap from MGS1 to 2 is so huge that it makes playing it kind of difficult. We have sequels taking 5 years to develop now that don't change anything, yet MGS2 in just 3 years completely overhauled and expanded everything from MGS1. Crazy.

>cutscene pause
I thought they had an update that added it, and you have to press the shoulder buttons or something. Can't seem to find any info.

>all business
You typically have to call them a few times. Snake goes into the backstory of Fortune and Dolph at different points.

>radios on their hip
I don't know why shooting them in 3 seems so much harder.

>tranqs distracting guards
You mean like shooting walls?

>alert effect
Even when I know it's coming it gives me a heart attack.

>fortune boss
Wait it out. Easiest way I know of it just stay in a box and run back and forth since you don't get caught on any walls.

>Rose drama when you just need to take a piss
Most realistic part of the story tbh.

>harrier boss
I think it's a fun fight. Absolutely fucking brutal on Extreme.

>swimming
You don't like a backtracking underwater escort mission? The best things found in every game?

>goes down the shitter past the harrier
In a way, yes. It is funny now that I think about it; when I was a kid I replayed MGS2 about 500000 times, apparently I didn't care about some of the junk in the second half. But then 3 came out, and it's a proper MGS the whole way through, and I don't think I touched 2 again until it got rereleased on PS3. It's still one of my favorites but I can't deny the second half of the Plant isn't it.

>drag Emma around
You could put her to sleep and drag her around. I think it's slightly faster/less annoying.

>sniping section
I don't know what difficulty you're playing on but there's nothing worse than her getting to the very end and then she steps on a claymore and dies instantly. Bad times.

>Otacon/Emma subplot
The bro hug between Otacon and Snake seals it for me.

IIRC for Vamp you can shoot the lights out so that you no longer have a shadow that he can attack or something. Was a cool detail.

> Codec
My favourite is MGR:R in this actually, the game has the most codec calls in the series. Each of your contacts has unique dialogue for basically every little situation out there, it's insane.

> mgs2 plot
Let me know when you finish it.

> post harrier
As noted, there are users that enjoy it and it has its merrits, but personally I am with you; not my favourite part at all.

finished mgs2, notes after my responses

>I'm glad I'm not the only one

i'm guessing you didn't play it in 1998 either. i'm sure this would be considered mgs heresy, but i kinda regret not playing Twin Snakes instead; i didn't do it because i have strong purist urges that would bother me for not playing the original first, but i can only imagine that the movement, shooting, mgs2 mechanics in general would make it a lot more playable in spite of it not being endemic to the game. i might check it out after mgs3 out of sheer curiosity (and really wanting to be the guy who says "Twin Snakes is superior to the original").

>leap from MGS1 to 2

it's mind-boggling. i've never seen a more substantial leap from 1 game to another, and yeah in only 3 years, which was also across a console generation.

>5 years for sequels that are the same

it can be even longer for that these days-- makes a man want to shed Tears.

>shooting walls?

yeah. specifically in the context of a guard already being suspicious to my presence and me wanting to redirect it, sometimes it worked but other times it didn't. i'll mess around with it some more, i'm sure it's just that the darts require a really close range and my distances were varying.

>You could put her to sleep

no idea i could do that

>gives me a heart attack




mgs2 thoughts:

mgs2's music is amazing

game's touching on some uncomfortable aspects about the digital age (the conversation Jack and Rose have about digital manipulation)

just realized that you can melee in first-person and you actually spin around in first-person with the last move

game's going off the rails now (in a good way)

Colonel's glitching out and going crazy. when i called and he had that skull face with the weird video playing in the codec, that actually caught me off guard.

"Infinite ammo"

that fake mission failed screen got me the first time

Metal Gear Ray fight is ass, shouldn't take this long

twist after twist after double-cross after triple-cross right now, this is nuts

that moment where Ocelot shoots Fortune out of fucking nowhere and reveals that her ability/curse was just nanomachines controlled by him? and then she blocks the missiles with her real ability? yeah, that was awesome.

oh shit, Liquid took over

Liquid Ocelot is my favorite villain. he's menacing as hell, has a great look/voice, great gimmick (western theme/revolvers), totally unpredictable, and the Liquid possessed arm thing is such a fun and mysterious element which adds even more unpredictability to the character.

that speech by the Colonel/AI Rose about what's really going on was wild

i really like Solidus' development throughout the game, constantly making you re-evaluate him. at first he seems like a stock villain, then you find out he's trying to take down the Patriots, then you find out why. his motivation perfectly ties into the themes of these games and i found it to be really interesting/insane, he seemed to care more about his legacy than saving everyone from the Patriot's tyranny.

the last cutscene where it shows the name you put into the game on Raiden's dogtags was a great moment, and the most clever and understated implementation of that feature i've seen. i put "Jackie" as my name and Raiden's real name is "Jack" so it flew over my head at first.


finished. i gotta say, i was shocked by the story; i just wasn't expecting it to be this good. the development of the plot/subplots/characters was amazing and it all comes together in the end for a mind-blowing last act. game hasn't aged a day and it's one of the best i've ever played, gameplay-wise and narratively.