The Evil Within

> Traumas
Jup, dies in one stab. It's a very rare animation though.

> Saddist
It takes a while though. You need to stab him and run back to the closet and hide. Takes around 15 minutes or so on Nightmare.

> Bolt
By far my favorite tool, especially with the Level 5 upgrade - the only one that feels like a true 'exclusive upgrade' like in RE4.

Again I cannot stress this enough I am loving this game now. I can see how my mindset made me hate it at the time but it is excellent.

Jup, dies in one stab. It's a very rare animation though.
Did you discover this? I've never seen it mentioned, ever. I think most players would never consider attempting it due to the game already making it clear some enemies like Ruvik clones can't be stealth killed. You would just assume something as big and evil as a Trauma would be immune.

How did you figure it out? Get close by chance or actually tried to do it?

It takes a while though. You need to stab him and run back to the closet and hide. Takes around 15 minutes or so on Nightmare.
Is this in the very first encounter in the area after cutting yourself down? I thought the knife attack doesn't work and he auto kills you?

By far my favorite tool, especially with the Level 5 upgrade - the only one that feels like a true 'exclusive upgrade' like in RE4.
Do bolts still cost the same at level 5? I can't remember and only ever used it in NG+.

> Trauma
I found it out myself and googled it afterwards, found one video on it. I could only get it to work the same way he did. You can jump off ladders by mashing Circle (PS4) and in the situation where you are introduced to a Trauma there's one down a ladder which you're supposed to not reach.

> Saddist
It's in the encounter where you have to sneak past him using bottles, just after you hid from him in a closet. Found it while looking for the Trauma stuff, same YT'er.

> Bolts
Cost the same yeah, only 2 per arrow making it a brutal weapon.

You can jump off ladders by mashing Circle (PS4) and in the situation where you are introduced to a Trauma there's one down a ladder which you're supposed to not reach.

Then it should also work with the ones in the city in that gas room. Nice.

No fall damage too, I tested it in the tower in the village, also on ng+ in the village you can find and shoot a crow in the room above the long ladder in the barn to initiate a mini game where you have to shoot a few other crows to get some gel as a reward, its timed though.

Finished the game yesterday, really excellent but like I remembered the last chapter really feels out of place and rushed. The second to last has this underground vibe with the old laboratory feel and these weird slime monsters and boss (which was pretty cool). I still found it insanely stupid to hear Sebastian say "what's going on" when seeing the city in ruins, still hinting that 'it might be the real world' which is absolutely stupid.

But yeah the final mission was really awkward. First you have this incredibly lengthy walking scenario, followed by what is essentially a horde-mode level containing one of the biggest ammo-sponges I have ever seen in my life. Seriously that Sadist took so much punishment it was just insane, had to pump him so full of lead I was starting to think the game had glitched out.
After that you have this weird sniper segment which feels out of place and then a short and strange stealth segment. It feels like the game wants to show-case all of its elements one last time but fails at it. The final boss feels like an entirely different game and I still don't know how to do the RPG-segment. Sometimes he falls of, sometimes he gets near me. I once fired all 10 rockets at him and he killed me anyway, but the next time I fired two and he fell off - no clue on how that works.

I dislike how on NG+ you still need to do Chapter 1 - wish you could skip it since it's so lineair. I just want to try my RPG and Machine Gun for a second before starting Nightmare.

I once fired all 10 rockets at him and he killed me anyway, but the next time I fired two and he fell off - no clue on how that works.

I never noticed how many I used. It was never under 5 though, and I figured I was missing half the time. Maybe you need to get him in the head? Did you see where the final shot connected?

I just want to try my RPG and Machine Gun for a second before starting Nightmare.
You probably already know this, but these have very limited ammo and think once they're empty that's it. I never really used them but I heard machine gun ammo is very rare, and rockets don't exist.

Birdman wrote:I once fired all 10 rockets at him and he killed me anyway, but the next time I fired two and he fell off - no clue on how that works.

I never noticed how many I used. It was never under 5 though, and I figured I was missing half the time. Maybe you need to get him in the head? Did you see where the final shot connected?

I just want to try my RPG and Machine Gun for a second before starting Nightmare.
You probably already know this, but these have very limited ammo and think once they're empty that's it. I never really used them but I heard machine gun ammo is very rare, and rockets don't exist.

Yeah I heard about the ammo, just want to derp around in a chapter and see how they feel. It's really weird and stupid that they did that, no clue as to why.

Finally started on the DLC. So far they are hit and miss for me. Granted I didn't dive in too much so bear with me. The Executioner DLC wasn't to my liking. The combat felt very slow and unresponsive, moves like the running strike took forever to activate - yet the QTE kills are insanely well animated showcasing some Mikami roots. The grabs are very fun to but barely seem to do any types of damage despite you throwing them into the stratosphere. 

The Assigment is both great and meh. I love how Kidman is animated, designed and presented. She really is what I'd imagine a female Leon would be. I love the way she moves (not in a sexual way), just has a fluid motion to it (really hard not to make it sound sexual). Love the stealth emphasis, that it hammers down on it. But I don't like the stealth, that's the big problem. It's very old-style, like 'find the way we envisioned you'd tackle this' instead of finding your own path or route. Granted I managed to sneak past one in a way that probably wasn't the intention. Meleeing isn't really worth it though you can get them in a loop pretty easily, but I don't believe it damages them; I wasn't able to kill any of them so far. For those interested the loop is Dodge an Attack > Kick > run towards their left to dodge the counter > kick etc. Didn't take me long to figure that out. Also is it me or does crouching barely do anything? Regular walking seems quiet as hell. Still very exicited to dive back in and like what it brings to the story. Especially the implication that everyone sees something unique in STEM.

Also dove into Nightmare difficulty, decided against Akumu just yet. Ironically I'm liking the cutscenes the most, it surprises me just how well they are crafted and how the little details actually work. Like at the start they talk about 'people getting butchered' in the hospital to which Joseph notes that that was incorrect, so that's two memories conflicting and making a mess for Sebastian. It's those little sentences that gain a whole new layer on repeat viewings, love it. Or how Kidman isn't affected by the signal's sound - cool stuff. Going to try and kill the Sadist in Chapter 1, wish me luck haha!

Kid man(why is she wearing high heels in formal detective/agent gear?) animates better than seb I noticed that, does she control better because of that? seb walks and runs like a cartoon it's really jarring to me, like Garcia hotspur except it effects gameplay due to his janky movements. I'm going through nightmare now. It's how awkward he moves around like up and down stairs.

About crouching, it seems mostly for stealth kill prompts to appear and to get in tight spaces as well as reducing sebs size so mobs can't see him and avoid traps.

Executioner: running attack is janky and unreliable it seldom connects and the hit box moves to either side of mobs for some reason. You can cancel attacks with a dodge if you tap sprint left/right/back. He slower paced fighter you might get used to it, it's a slow weighty combat style.

Theirs no I frames on grab animations so you can be killed during them.I've tested it but sometimes their might be I frames its bizarre, just like re4 you should have I frames when you are completely vulnerable during a grab animation, grabs deal damage to you anyway it's not fair to get hit and die during it, akumu is exception fair enough but you can't call that balanced when you can be double teamed during a grab, that's unneeded grabs punish you for getting grabbed in the first place.

It's a problem with multiple mooks in close quarters usually, like chapter 6. I've died multiple times while being grabbed that bollocks, being grabbed is my fault but I can't do anything during the animation. Matches have risk reward use no issue it's namely lack of iframes on grabs.

Crouching makes you completely silent. Go behind an enemy then stand up and start walking. They'll notice you instantly.

Controling her is the same as Sebastian I feel, she can have a lot of mobility issues especially when on stairs and having to quickly turn - for some reason this is a really big problem for them. Not sure why but the animation transition is pretty hefty. Speaking of stealthkills do you ever get a weapon or is it pure stealth? Don't really mind but just curious. I like how she goes in this special 'crouching in fear' animation if in cover and a foe is nearby. The covermechanics are also pretty rock solid, took me by surprise.

About the stealthkill I noticed that too that you have no i.frames. I both like and...not like it. The animation is slow enough as it is and doesn't even kill some enemies or work on them, so why they did this is beyond me.
When talking about the grabs what I am noticing is just how on higher settings they don't stop coming until they finish the grab animation by getting close. Weird design. Also found out you can cancel the 'tired animation' by tapping crouch or aiming, handy if you need to make a quick escape. I'm thinking about what to upgrade first on Nightmare, I'll probably go Matches > Sprint, Agony Stock > pistol stock > shotgun stock > Harpoon damage. Having flaming harpoons during the Keeper was very helpfull. I do plan on doing a Pistol only run later-on or a no-upgrade run.

Fun Fact: Kidman doesn't have a weapon while starting the game for some reason, and Sebastian apparently has a pistol that he uses in some cutscenes including the final boss. Wonder what's up with that.

She'll get a gun later in the first DLC but it's scripted. Second DLC you'll actually get it for real.

I died so many times(on chapter 6) because I got comboed while in and out of a grab when I'm helpless, also you don't even have I frames on your recovery roll if seb gets caught on fire as I was hit out of his roll. I saved clips on my PS4 so I'll have a look at those to check. I'm fine with no iframes on matches as it's short enough to be risk reward, requires timing and can potentially kill whole groups.
You can be stunned after a grab from a knife/sickle and be grabbed and hit right after.

Tip:switching weapons after a weapon is loaded you can skip the end reload animation, speeds up the rifle and shotgun reloads a lot.

During chapter 6 arrow firing sniper section Joseph can fall off the wooden bridge area and you have to help him up, you don't seem to have I frames while helping him as I died during this animation a few times but one time a enemy missed a grab somehow.

Enemy grabs last way too long, like 5 seconds they can chase you for when most of game is close quarters. Seb can have trouble meleeing enemies if he next to a body so he kicks the corpse instead of enemies.

Aiming is way too zoomed in it's hard to see what/where I'm shooting and where Seb is.
only place you can see seb while aiming is in safe room for some reason, needs a aim zoom option like re6 added. Shotgun is not so effective at close range due to the aim zoom in, it's all very awkward.

During chapter 6 arrow firing sniper section Joseph can fall off the wooden bridge area and you have to help him up, you don't seem to have I frames while helping him as I died during this animation a few times but one time a enemy missed a grab somehow.

I actually had this happen to me on my Survivor run and hadn't seen that before, was pretty shocked. Liked it.

I have to note that I did cheat one little bit, looked up a speedrun of Chapter 9 to run through it. I honestly don't care about that chapter thanks to the Ruvik encounters. It was tense the first time but I'm done with it now.

EDIT: don't want to flood haha. But finished the first chapter of Assigment, like it a lot - but mostly the storybits and exploration and puzzles. The stealth so far has been very cut and dry and not really interesting. The 'survival' part while waiting for the lift was probably really cute in their minds but ended with me running one big circle making tons of noise for nearly a minute. The most tense it's gotten was somewhere in Chapter 2 where you have to hide from a Trauma while opening a set of doors. I was stuck and cowering in a corner but he didn't see me because I was so small. Scared shitless I was, also because my Spotify was having issues so no relaxing music for me at that time. 
Continued on with Sebastian a little bit, melee'd Connelly at the start - poor guy didn't have a chance now that I know their pattern. Really curious if they have updated hearing etc. on Nightmare now too. We'll see! Going to work on the Vanquish article now.

I just don't have a single issue with no i-frames in a horror game like this. It doesn't even make sense to have them. No others do accept for these modern RE action games.

As for the DLC, that spotlight creature scared me so bad I moved inch by inch the entire game. Horrifying thing.

Agreed, doesn't really matter. It was a bit surprising though that even a stealth kill doesn't have any i.frames, and it looks a bit glitchy too when you get hit during it.

And this might be thanks to me playing music while playing but I don't find her that scary. I am just too pussy to play it regularly haha, no way in hell I'm going to get that done. Still I find her design very interesting, to have a horror-enemy based around the concept of light.

I have yet to be interrupted during a stealth kill, though I have been seen by other enemies while doing them and by chance they chose to approach slowly or just observe long enough for me to finish it.

Makes sense for a stealth kill not to have them, seeing as if you get seen you aren't really in stealth at all, but I can see what you're getting at. I remember somewhat expecting them, this being Mikami, but I'm glad they aren't in. It just wouldn't be a horror game to me if it had all these action elements.

I'm scared of most horror games, like legit. That's why I love them so much. I have noticed that I never see anyone else freaked out by them. One thing that doesn't scare me in the slightest is Japanese horror. I love the Zero/Fatal Frame series, but their take on ghosts just doesn't scare me at all for the most part. The environments are creepy though. I play it for the excellent gameplay.

I'm actually terrified of zombies. Yes, the absolute basic, slow moving zombie. And dinosaurs.

I'm deeper into the second DLC now, just finished the first. I cannot imagine how much I would've hated this DLC had I played it back then as I recall hoping that it - as a more streamlined dlc - would be the RE4 fix I craved. Damn imagine my disappointment had I played this then. Still I really enjoyed it and the tension it had, the stealth is really bad though when it comes down to it. Would really like to see them do a horror game with like Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory levels of stealth, that would be insane (seriously, play that game if you can it is the DMC3/NBG etc. of the stealth-genre).

The second DLC is nice, just as the first one, with mixing things up. The chemical-lights were good but also bad as they never told me I had an infinite supply. I did nearly the entire thing using just one until at the last second before I reached the flashlight found out you could throw them... imagine my face hahahaha. I wonder when I'll get a weapon (don't spoil it), imagine it will feel really good to have a form of defense. Also liking the details in the story that are thrown at you. The flash-light chase near the start really scared me btw, I can see now why you found her scary. It's really cool that 'light' is made scary while it's supposed to be this safe thing, neat idea.

What I'm noticing the most though is how strange Kidman is in terms of design and writing. I keep forgetting this is a Japanese game while she is very un-japanese. Women are generally conveyed very differently there (just look at the cutscenes in Metroid: Other M) and she's very strongwilled, stubborn and mature - not something you see often in this type of game.

I'm actually terrified of zombies. Yes, the absolute basic, slow moving zombie. And dinosaurs.

It took years for me not to be scared of dinosaurs having seen Jurassic Park 2 at the age of 4(?). Kid brought it to class and we were all terrified.

Knife Melee kills/stealth kills same thing they are scripted prompt moments when you are completely vulnerable, no use using them during a group if you can be hit. stealth no iframes fine I never had an issue with that, but knife combat prompts should give iframes since you have to earn those stun states and can only attack one mob at a time anyway, its fine usually since groups will be stunned so you can kill one of two via prompt in that time or whatever else you want to do, just noting no iframes.

You have no I frames you can be hit during stun animations, as in during grabs and the animation of seb recovering from them also, you cannot move and are completely vulnerable you tell me if that sounds fair. Akumu is the exception fair enough, getting grabbed is the players fault, getting hit during said grab by other enemies and dying because of that is the games fault.
I have clips of this I'll have to upload them. I frames have been in games since forever, it's a way to give players a small moment of immunity to give them a fair chance to recover.

I have noticed some amount of iframes if seb gets hit sometimes, he can still be grabbed which makes it moot, you can be grabbed again after a recovery state like recovering from a fall of other grab.

EW has plenty of action, what's all those guns you have then?(does zombie swat man with assault rifle sound like horror to you? in siren yeh but not EW)
its a spooky bang bang; it has spooky stuff that you shoot to survive, that's how most survival horror is in essence, some have more emphasis on shooting to survive, some have no guns(haunting ground,amnesia,clock tower) at all and you survive via other means.(running, hiding)
Oh and that subtle turret sequence, along with the final boss being another turret sequence then rocket launcher finale.

re4 was a farce on survival horror, that's why it knew when to give up trying to be spooky at the island(except regeneradors) and reveal what it always was; a somewhat spooky game about shooting spooky things and sometimes doing sick suplexes and roundhouses.

Also for the record I never expected re4, if I wanted re4 I'd play re4, because it's re4. Same as why I don't need another god hand or vanquish I'll just play them again. Dead space and shadows of the damned function similar to re4 so I'll play them also, same as re5-6. I don't play classic survival horror it's too slow and combat and movement are not enjoyable to me, I watch them instead,that's why I play spooky bang bangs like re4, dead space and EW.

I'm not mad or anything like that sorry if my writing conveys that.

Stealth is super basic and shallow in EW, its a simple option for no ammo kills, it has far more going on with its regular combat so I'm fine with that. Its inoffensive stealth so it's not awful just meh.
Kidman Dlc I didn't buy, i didn't like EW stealth and typically don't play stealth games other than mgs(since they have a lot of action, characters and bosses I like).

If you want a stealth survival horror then siren does that, its not complex very basic but the sight jacking is cool concept(see enemies points of view), has enemies that for most part can't be killed(siren blood curse you have to kill the shibito brain. Siren blood curse visuals look somewhat like EW(regular humans with pale bloody skin with body damage like stakes sticking out of them) except more defined and less schlocky.

What I'm noticing the most though is how strange Kidman is in terms of design and writing. I keep forgetting this is a Japanese game while she is very un-japanese.

Possibly because apparently, it was directed by some western guy. Same guy is doing The Evil Within 2.

Interesting though. Makes me wonder if she has the same character in the JP version which has JP voice acting.

You have no I frames you can be hit during stun animations, as in during grabs and the animation of seb recovering from them also, you cannot move and are completely vulnerable you tell me if that sounds fair.

This is the case in a lot of games. You get hit, you get stunned, and you get followed up with more attacks. Sounds fair to me. Solution? Don't get grabbed. All it is is an attack like any other. You avoid it.

I frames have been in games since forever, it's a way to give players a small moment of immunity to give them a fair chance to recover.

This is more for action games where it makes sense. Horror games rarely have such things as i-frames.

(does zombie swat man with assault rifle sound like horror to you?

It still is, no matter what it sounds like.

If you want a stealth survival horror then siren does that

Personally I didn't even think about it. I was never so hyped for EW because I was looking forward to top stealth mechanics. The only mechanic I need in that regard is basically being able to hide and shit my pants when a horrific creature stomps past.

I'm a bit on the fence about the i.frame debacle, I get that it's not an action title and that they very clearly wanted to differentiate themselves from Resident Evil 4. But that's like saying you can get hit while being grabbed in Resident Evil 1 - it's a bit overkill. That said just don't get grabbed.

Speaking of horror, for me the scariest thing is things that move weird. Things like the Regenerators from Resident Evil scared the hell out of me. But over all what I find the most horrifiing is something that breaks conventions. Acts normal but does something weird. My scariest dream was me having a cup of tea with a friend at a cafe and suddenly we look outside and saw a plane stop mid-air only to start turning 360 degrees in a circle infinitely. It's something normal doing something un-natural, horrifying.

I can except being grabbed, that's my fault, being hit during the grab is piss, being survival horror is no excuse, at that point I might as well play akumu if it's gonna kill me during a grab anyway.im not good enough to never be grabbed, it's going to happen, so simply allow for iframes during the grab so I'm only hurt by the grab itself, simple fix, I won't complain then. it's not a game breaker but it would help the balance given its close quarters mostly. I think dead space has the same thing for grabs, not sure.

Rule of rose has iframes when getting back up, this applies to enemies too. It is in them but more subtle.

My comment about zombie swat man is how uninspired it is, like how re6 got flak for the same exact enemy. it's not very interesting or fun to fight as opposed to say invisible mobs and Ruvik clones both of which I find work well; both have standard grab move and Ruvik clones have instant kill attack, melee enemies are better suited for its close quarters combat. Snipers are fine they distance foes with distinct rifle glint. Enemies with guns I found boring, not very novel just man with gun. I'd appreciate something more supernatural like the invisible and Ruvik mobs.

Visual design wise the mobs got less interesting as it went on, I liked the grim barbed wire and stake speared designs but average Joe, lady cop and fireman where very bland. whole city chapters where uninteresting, those chapter almost have up on the torture porn aesthetic.
I want to see more mix of normal and surreal areas like final chapter area with the brain stuff, like silent hill regular and other world mix. What do you say of this?

Exactly it's overkill, yeh don't get grabbed but it happens so punishment is the grab itself not anything else, if Laura or ruvik clones grab me ok, my fault, no issue fam. I frames are iframes it's not simply action, horror has them it's more subtle uses, re has had them it's for fairness and a second chance nothing more.

On horror creatures, uncanny is a human factor, something familiar but unfamiliar messes with our perception and causes unease. I love silent hill creatures they are uncomfortable to be around, that's a good monster to me not jumpscares, since simply hearing and seeing the creature is the horror and how it may interact with the player also. Horror can be hard to desribe since it can be so implacable. I like eldritch designs, I want to be confused as to what I'm looking at.

I also find faces, mouths and eyes in places they shouldn't be to be bizarre. Like say the god hand realm in berserk. Horror varies greatly from creature to creature, like how birdman gets spooked by zombies and not fatal frame ghosts, zombies I find boring, they slow, dumb and too normal to captivate me.

I see grabs as just attacks. Pretty much every action game allows you to be hit again and again while stunned from previous hits. Rather than have i-frames, I would rather the enemies just stand back and watch. I've played a few games that do this.

it's going to happen, so simply allow for iframes during the grab so I'm only hurt by the grab itself, simple fix,

Do more to avoid close quarters combat with groups unless you have something that can deal with them. You know the grabs exist, so you know what to look out for.

I think dead space has the same thing for grabs, not sure.

I think the other enemies just don't attack.

Rule of rose has iframes when getting back up, this applies to enemies too. It is in them but more subtle.

I love RoR but its combat is some of the most glitchy and worst you'll ever see in a horror game.

I'd appreciate something more supernatural like the invisible and Ruvik mobs.

That's fine but you got to accept that not every enemy can be this new, unique idea. There's always going to be some unoriginal stuff in every game.

I want to see more mix of normal and surreal areas like final chapter area with the brain stuff, like silent hill regular and other world mix. What do you say of this?

The brain and gore stuff made me feel sick to be honest. Don't really like it at all. Loved the village and mansion though. City was ok.

zombies I find boring, they slow, dumb and too normal to captivate me.

They are, true, yet they don't need those to get the job done. They don't just kill you, they eat you alive. Think about that. RE2 scared me to death when I first played as a kid and even today it creeps me out. The sound design is excellent. When you're outside every now and then you'll hear zombies moaning on the wind. The gross shuffling sound when they move.

Yes thank you birdman, making enemies passive during a grab is what is needed to make it fair, since it's a period of immunity from all but the grab(area hazards are an exception), functionally the same as iframes. That's a fix I want. Just a moment of not getting hit while I'm getting grabbed please. A minor moment of respite is the point I frames or not, it's a tad cheap and needlessly punishing is my issue.

It's mostly an issue during forced group encounters(chapter 6 namely due to limited space) I don't get grabbed much outside of them, those explosive bow guys are a pain, they can stun lock you to death, though they can blow themselves up by mistake.

About zombies, they do eat you alive, but so do many other creatures, zombies are a threat in bulk. I find being absorbed into a creature while conciouss more horrifying and unfathomable from just being eaten since I might die anyway while being eaten.
Creatures that force you into its biomass(the thing,dead space, aliens) or otherworldly horrors I can't rightly comprehend are truly horrifying to me.
Zombie fiction I like more for zombie variants like mutants(crimson heads, left 4 dead) and bio weapons like re has. I respect the simplicity of zombies and they can be used as a way to frame and force human drama(night of the living dead,walking dead).

Do you take issue with any game that stunlocks you? As I said most action games will do this.

If their isn't a viable way to recover from consecutive hits then yes, the player needs a chance to recover.
I seldom get stun locked in action games I play, it may happen eventually because of how a game is designed to allow for stun lock,factors like area space, player and enemy positioning, enemy types numbers, and I frames or not can cause a situation that leads to stun lock.

In the case of EW I except being grabbed as the punishment but I need to be able to recover so I can have a chance to fight back, so having a system in place like some iframes and making mobs passive so they don't gang bang you are balancing things that avoid overkill punishing situations. I frames are used for giving players a chance to survive and get their bearings again, it's why so many old games have iframe blinking phases if you take a hit or die and respawn.

God hand has iframes if you get hard knocked down, during prompts(except stomp) and after using god hand or roulette moves, so the player doesn't immediately get hit after doing them which would be unfair since you are stuck in those animations,you need a brief period to recuperate. I frames are used in almost all genres including horror it's a matter of balancing if a situation would be deemed to punishing. I frames I just one way to avoid unfair/too punishing situations.

It depends on a games design, at some point it may be more the game than the player but that depends id need to give examples, being stun locked may be a sign of poor design its often something that leads a game to be called cheap. If being stun locked is too consistent of an issue and the game makes it difficulty to avoid then I'd say can be be bad design.

I frames would be useless in EW as enemies still attack while you are in recovery animations, I think I have seen some iframes if seb gets hit but I've still been grabbed during that. I have footage of being grabbed during a role recovery after Seb gets set on fire, I can't react at all during these unskippable animations so I can't defend myself and recover, it makes it pointless having grabs as they lead to so many stun lock situations I just restart if I get grabbed and am aware of the other factors that will cause my inevitable death. Take the chapter 6 gauntlet, I have so much footage of being stun locked it mostly restarted as I knew I was dead anyway.

Some small amount of iframes when I'm in control and during stun animations and/or making mobs passive would fix this issue.

I'm fully excepting when it's my fault for getting hit but at some point it's not the player and the game for making an overkill situation. I got grabbed this is on me, but I can't effect whether I'm hit or not when I'm not in control,I can't effect the outcome after being grabbed if I'm not in control and entirely vulnerable, it's entirely up to the game whether mobs attack me at that point.

I recently beat bogeys on god hard and would never say it was unfair, you have iframes in vanquish and auto ARS also functions as a quick getaway comeback mechanics to allow the player to reposition and deal some damage. I'm getting off topic this is best for the unfair thread.

EW gameplay functions similar to re4 and dead space, both of which have mobs passive for a brief period while you are being grabbed, re4 also has iframes, re5 has iframes during stun periods also and makes mobs passive especially during a critical life phase mobs will taunt the player for a period to allow for a recovery. EW mob grabs are identical in function to these games so they should allow passive mobs and maybe iframes if needed, that's my major balancing issue. I hope they fix this for EW2.

In the case of knife finishers during combat they should allow for iframes as it's a long scripted animation just like re4 melee prompts(namely suplex), you have to earn this stun state and it only effects and potentially doesn't even kill a single foe(sadist) having no iframes removes practical application of the move, of course you can stun groups with flash bolt so you ideally would have time to kill a few mobs which is fine. I don't have much of an issue with this because of flash bolt lengthy stun effect.

I think I disagree with almost everything here. It all sounds like rewards for BEING HIT.

Stuff like GH roulette or pummel moves make sense, but not from actually being hit, then being susceptible to follow up hits.

Think fighting games like Tekken. You get launched or stunned, and you can't just say, flip out of it. Some FGs allow combo escapes if you have a meter of some sort but that still doesn't protect you from counter hits and all kinds of other variables that lead to follow up damage.

Why not just be invincible in Vanquish when you overheat then?

Your not seeing what I'm saying here, I'm talking about EW here firstly iframes are iframes no matter the genre it's simply one game concept used for the sake of balance.

God hand you have iframes right after god hand and roulette uses as it lets you gain control and not immediately take damage with no chance to react as you are stuck in an animation.

Not a reward it's to allow chance to recover so you can't be hit constantly during recovery,which can lead to unfair situations and make certain actions practically useless. It's not simply a matter of iframes or not it's looking at a games design and determining if something is needed to avoid unbalanced things, iframes are one way to balance a game.

In the case of re4 during a GRAB you are invincible for sake of balance, or if you take any attack for that matter excluding instant kills, you have iframes during Leon's recovery animations and while being grabbed until you are in control again, if you could be hit while still recovering then you would never have a chance to recover, defeating the point of having recovery animations, mobs are also typically passive so they allow for recovery when you do gain control again otherwise it's a loop of being hit then being hit then being hit with no chance of surviving.

Dead space you don't have iframes during grabs since it's unneeded as mobs don't attack during grab and only attack when you gain control, this is what can balance a game. These things in dead space and re4 are the same, mobs don't attack while you are entirely defenceless.

In EW you have no iframes while being grabbed so you can be hurt and killed during a grab and can be hit during lengthy recovery animations, this means if you get hit/grabbed only once you can never recover potentially also due to mobs not stopping attacks at all. You can be hit before you regain control is the issue, I'm not in control during recovery and a grab, all because I didn't avoid a grab which was my fault not the chain of events that folllow.

length of iframes is used for balance, too few and it's useless,too many and you are immortal, only the amount needed to allow for recovery is necessary, once you are in control you have no iframes again.

In the case of god hand if you take a hard knockdown instead of getting up immediately from a knockdown attack you lose a extra portion of life for a trade off for iframes when you get back up, you don't get iframes if you are hit regularly which is fine since you recover instantly from basic hits, you do have iframes during grabs so you can only be hurt by the grab itself, same exact thing as re4.

What's are you saying about vanquish? What are you interpreting with my writing exactly? What logic do you think I'm using?

I'm looking at games and uses of I frames and other factors to balance a game, to avoid too punishing of situations.

In vanquish If you had iframes for whole overheat it would be unbalanced as you would be immortal and their would be no penalty for overheating. Auto ARS and sams knock back animation are used to give the player a second chance if they get hurt too much, these 2 factors allow for a comeback, at the cost of a forced overheat this is a trade off for your second chance, so you now have to be careful again, so you can't rely on auto ARS to save you immediately again.
You are in control during overheat and have already recovered, being hit during RECOVERY animations can unbalance a game. you have iframes during sams long recovery animation from taking critical damage in vanquish, that's why it's a RECOVERY animation to allow you to recover by not be hit immediately while in critical state, after this you are vulnerable since you are in control that's my point. If you could be hit during his lengthy recovery animation then that would defeat the point in having one at all. It lets you recover that's what it's for. A comeback mechanic.

What do you think I'm saying here? stop equating horror=no iframes and action=iframes, iframes are a tool to balance a game. It's one of many tools to allow for a safe RECOVERY and balanced gameplay.

Uses for Iframes and other tools to allow for recovery is my point, not just iframes but it's uses along with other factors.

You get iframes in fighters, like after getting hard knockdowned you get iframes for the RECOVERY animation usually so you can't be hit with no pause that's a fighting game balance, combos only last so long so you have a chance to recover and retaliate. If you get hit in a fighter than that's usually p your fault, then you get comboed until the combo ends, then you can regain CONTROL. In tekken you can roll away to avoid hits after being knocked down, that's to help let you regain control.

In EW you can be stun locked to death potentially, forced group encounters like chapter 6 show this issue well. It's not broken I've beat it 3 times now but it's needlessly punishing for a simple mistake that was my fault, if I could recover reliably and have a chance to survive then that's better, same as re4 and dead space, after grabs/knockdowns you can continue to fight reliably as the game let's you and doesn't harm you during grabs and knock downs. Just that is the issue, the grab and knockdown damage are punishments for getting hit not excess damage from other foes during those states.

Roy do you see my point, I'm trying to be clear here.

EW is the game I'm talking about firstly, it doesn't allow the player to recover as they should due to design issues of no immunity to other foes during the grab, no immunity during recovery animations and no mobs stopping attacks to allow for a recovery during those animations that's the issue. if you get hit while in CONTROL then it's on the player, getting grabbed while in CONTROL is the players fault, but being hit during said grab(from other foes) and during recovery animations then that's the games, you are literally defenceless during your RECOVERY animations that's the issue.

It's not a matter of just frames it's simply allowing the player to recover at times when it's needed, during RECOVERY animations especially. I frames are one means to allow for players to recover and regain CONTROL. I'm not talking about just iframes but allowing to regain control is the issue.

EW you are capable of being hit and killed during recovery that's the issue, which means you can't reliably regain control as you can remain being hit/grabbed with little to no chance to gain control, if you never had recovery animations then you would be able to remain in control and then react and be hit of the players accord. Don't have recovery animations that don't allow you to recover its pointless.

If you are knocked down in EW you can still be hit during recovery so it's a matter of if mobs don't hit you which is chance, you typically fight groups of mobs so the more mobs the more chances to not be able to recover, and they attack constantly so groups you have little chance to survive. One mob can still stun lock you while in recovery.

Being stunlocked with no reliable chance to recover is unbalanced in EW. A use of Iframes can be called mercy invincibility, check it on Tv tropes to see what I mean, this is what I'm talking about they let you recover so you can't be stun locked constantly and can allow you to gain control to fight back. You can't do anything during EW stun animations as you are not in control, but can be hit non stop, just for being grabbed or knocked down once can lead to a unwinnable situation due to not being allowed to recover.

rule of rose is a listed example, its not the only survival horror to have them, it's a tool is all. Horror or not mercy invisibility is just that, it lets players recover is what it's for nothing more is needed. Really simple fix.

What do you have to say about rule of rose use of iframes? it's used during recovery animations from getting knocked down so you can recover, same as what I'm saying. That's the same use EW needs so you can simply get up without being hit during grabs and recovery. It doesn't have to be like Mario where if you get hit and have a power up you get iframes and are immune to damage when you are in control. Just something to allow you to gain control, not when you are in control iframes then could make you overpowered.

Can you see removing iframes from re4 as an issue? That's what EW issue is, same situations but EW has no iframes and mobs don't stop attacking while you are recovering or being grabbed, leading to excess damage and not being allowed to recover.

Survival horror isn't a genre dedicated to having no iframes, they do since Iframes are a game concept not just action, platformers have them also. Just because it's labelled survival horror isn't an excuse for no iframes, if it's designed in such a way to not need them and use something else instead then that's fine, iframes are a means to an end.

Just because a x number of survival horror games doesn't always have iframes isn't an excuse when some should/could have them in some form.
Action games don't always have or need iframes so survival horror dont always have or need no iframes.

Why do you call re4 action game(you say it has action game aspects) and EW just survival horror? What of dead space?
They are all very similar;games where you shoot spooky(horror) things to survive with guns played from the 3rd person perspective. As far as I'm concerned these games are all a different takes on the same thing; spooky bang bangs/spooky shooters as well as surviving horror.

Haunting ground and amnesia are about running and hiding to survive rather than a more direct confrontational approach to surviving the horror like re, silent hill and dead space.

Games can be more than one label, survival horror is a term used for a game that's about survival and horror, survival is indicative of surviving gameplay mechanics(limited resource management) against the horror. Horror being what emotion the player is meant to feel and what the games aesthetic/themes are supposed to convey. If I frames would help balance its design then put them in, or something to that effect.

Your not seeing what I'm saying here

Maybe, but in addition to being hit WHILE being stuck in a grab, you have also mentioned being stunlocked while being hit. I'll try to answer all your points and see if I'm getting exactly what you want to say.

God hand you have iframes right after god hand and roulette uses as it lets you gain control and not immediately take damage with no chance to react as you are stuck in an animation.

There is a difference here. These are abilities designed with i-frames given to you in order to use them effectively or we wouldn't use them at all. I don't have an issue with this.

Not a reward it's to allow chance to recover so you can't be hit constantly during recovery

Recovery as in, once you hit the ground and are considered 'down'? Or instances with grabs where you might be able to shake off the attack, and in that instance where you haven't fully regained control right?

I can agree that it sucks to be grabbed and have some other guy hit you while you're still in the grab. But as long as the grab (which I consider no more than another attack) is avoidable then there's no issue for me.

Not a reward it's to allow chance to recover so you can't be hit constantly during recovery,which can lead to unfair situations and make certain actions practically useless.

In terms of getting hit by attacks consecutively, for example, say a ranged enemy shoots you with an arrow, and you get a small stun, then a nearby enemy with a sword jump slashes you while you're still reeling from the arrow. I have no problem with this. Avoid the arrow. I know you were originally talking about EW, but this concept can apply to any game with combat. Action games usually give you tons of options to avoid damage, with i-frames on dodges, jumps, attacks, and various abilities.

In the case of re4 during a GRAB you are invincible for sake of balance

1)This isn't RE4.

2)Not every horror or action game has them, or at least not in the same place and it doesn't mean they HAVE to have them. If the attack is avoidable in the first place, it's fine.

it's a loop of being hit then being hit then being hit with no chance of surviving.

Avoiding the first hit solves this. And even when you get hit or grabbed, it's not even like this most of the time even in EW.

I'm not in control during recovery and a grab, all because I didn't avoid a grab which was my fault not the chain of events that folllow.

I agree it sucks when it happens, but I never had an issue with it even then. Because once I let a guy get close enough, for whatever reason, with his fellows in tow, I knew I had royally f*cked up.

The fact that we know what happens when we get grabbed with enemies nearby means we have an advantage right there. We have the tools to avoid it, though yes, there are some nasty situations, though only the burning house was really a problem due to lack of space, but even that we prepare for with bolts.

What are you interpreting with my writing exactly? What logic do you think I'm using?

That you can deal with the situation, but you don't want to I guess. I never felt anything needed i-frames just because if they caught me I could potentially be heavily damaged by follow up attacks.

In vanquish If you had iframes for whole overheat it would be unbalanced as you would be immortal and their would be no penalty for overheating.

I guess I see anything that happens after you screw up as a penalty for screwing up. Which it is.

You get iframes in fighters, like after getting hard knockdowned you get iframes for the RECOVERY animation usually so you can't be hit with no pause that's a fighting game balance,

My point in mentioning fighters is because I asked you if you have an issue with getting stunlocked by regular attacks and you did.

combos only last so long so you have a chance to recover and retaliate.

Like the majority of your health.

If you get hit in a fighter than that's usually p your fault, then you get comboed until the combo ends, then you can regain CONTROL.

Yeah eventually, but I guess this comes down to how you view being grabbed in EW. To me it's an attack, like a Tekken launcher. Once either hits you, you lose all control until the opponent/enemy is done with you. Answer? Don't get launched and don't get grabbed. Work towards this.

In tekken you can roll away to avoid hits after being knocked down, that's to help let you regain control.

True, but even then with good players there are numerous options for catching tech rolls that lead into more hits/combos. They let you TRY to regain control but they aren't safe.

stop equating horror=no iframes and action=iframes, iframes are a tool to balance a game. It's one of many tools to allow for a safe RECOVERY.

Not in every game. Multiple ghosts in Fatal Frame can combo grab you. Haunting Ground slowly makes you lose control the higher your panic gets, and you can end up running into walls, and then the stalker hits you during the rebound. If you're on the ground from being knocked down, the stalker can pounce on you and you're dead unless you can get Hewie to attack enough to hold them off long enough for you to get back up. I could list numerous examples that would take pages on all kinds of games where follow up damage is guaranteed after being hit or grabbed, and none of it is unfair. Sure, just adding i-frames to everything would make stuff easier, but isn't necessary. I actually like not always having them. It leads to new ways to think and play other than relying on them to save you.

I know of a few action games that have no i-frames on dodges and have seen them criticized for that when it's unnecessary. The dodges work without them.

if you get hit while in CONTROL then it's on the player, getting grabbed while in CONTROL is the players fault,

I think this is the root of the issue. You had control, and you lost it, and now you pay for it. I don't view this as a design issue at all.

EW you are capable of being hit and killed during recovery that's the issue, which means you can't reliably regain control as you can remain being hit/grabbed with little to no chance to gain control, if you never had recovery animations then you would be able to remain in control and then react and be hit of the players accord. Don't have recovery animations that don't allow you to recover its pointless.

Then avoid getting too close to groups. You know what they can do.

you typically fight groups of mobs so the more mobs the more chances to not be able to recover, and they attack constantly so groups you have little chance to survive. One mob can still stun lock you while in recovery.

I have never had a major issue with this. Sure, I've been comboed, but not often. I know what can happen if I take on groups and get too close to one of them. If I need a group taken down, I have bolts for that. I have a shotgun to get someone out of my face.

A use of Iframes can be called mercy invincibility, check it on Tv tropes to see what I mean, this is what I'm talking about they let you recover so you can't be stun locked constantly.

I already understand perfectly what you're talking about. I've been playing these types of games for years.

What do you have to say about rule of rose use of iframes?

That the game is the worst possible example due to how glitchy it is. Can you link me to that page?
I played RoR for a very long time and found some serious nonsense in the game's mechanics. I'd need to see what that page says, but if it's what I'm thinking, the game doesn't have actual i-frames at all, (being knocked down and having the enemies leave you alone is not what I mean) it is a glitch related to consecutive hits not connecting to due to collisions being some of the worst you'll ever see.

Can you see removing iframes from re4 as an issue?

Yeah, it would drop your capabilities in terms of melee dramatically. I wouldn't be wanting to use melee in a group at all. You could still get through the game, but it was built with those i-frames in mind.

That's what EW issue is, same situations but EW has no iframes and mobs don't stop attacking while recovering or being grabbed.

Yeah, if you added them it would solve those issues you're having. I'm not saying it wouldn't. I'm just saying I don't agree that it needs them.

Just saw your edit.

Just because it's labelled survival horror isn't an excuse for no iframes, if it's designed in such a way to not need them and use something else instead then that's fine, iframes are a means to an end.

It's not about making excuses. If the situation in question can initially be avoided, such as EW grabs, then I have no problem with a game not having them. If a situation is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid, or to take some other action like your GH examples is only possible WITH them, then I'd have an issue.

when some should/could have them in some form.

Should, if something was impossible to deal with without them. Could? Well of course anything could, but then the question would become SHOULD they have them? I think we'd just go in circles there.

Action games don't always have or need iframes so survival horror dont always have or need no iframes.

That's been my point from the start. It's highly debatable and depends on the person. I would define 'need' as being impossible to progress without taking damage/getting killed. Some want it to be overall easier to survive.

Why do you call re4 action game(you say it has action game aspects) and EW just survival horror?

I don't really care for the definition thing again. Action horror or whatever. I don't view EW as action. Dead Space is kind of like RE4, an action/horror/shooter hybrid I guess.

Thankyou for responding I've been editing my posts to be as clear as possible, sorry if I'm coming off as aggressive I'm just trying to articulate and understand the discussion better.

I don't have an issue with regular attacks not triggering iframes, that's fine since usually you can recover instantly against basic attacks. I can't  honestly remember being stunlocked in an action game except mad midget five recently, little shitters can stun you with basic arm flails haha.

Recovery as in once you hit the ground and are considered 'down'? or instances with grabs where you might be able to shake off the attack and in that instance where you haven't fully regained control right?

Yes Both, when you are downed and getting back up from a downed state, and when you haven't fully regained control but standing. Being hit during these states can be frustrating to me, it's really not so bad in EW but it should give you more leeway to recover. simply not being hit during downed and non fully control states would give me a reliable chance of a comeback. I can deal with it but it's a bother when it happens haha. You do have plenty of tools to counter this, I did use my resources well and find effective strategies to avoid big damage situations. Getting grabbed is my fault I'd just like less egregious consequences, make mobs a bit passive during grabs and only being harmed by the grab is a fix for me, its manageable but it's more annoying than anything. It doesn't need them but I'd appreciate it.

Matches I'm fine with having no iframes as its a big risk reward mechanic. you can instantly kill whole groups with a single well timed and placed match, its animation is short enough to allow for practical use, ideally if you succeeded then recovery is a non issue as you killed them so less or no threats remain.

Knife prompt kills for stuns don't need iframes since flash bolts stun whole groups which gives you plenty of time to act how you see fit.

I'm on your line of thinking really, just a bit butt hurt was all. I did beat EW 3 times now(2 on survivial and 1 on nightmare) so I got my bearings by now, and I have recently beaten vanquish god hard with 70 deaths(this is stellar according to Roy, I'm only decent as far as I'm concerned) so I can beat hard games that can bum you over easily if not played well enough, I know when to stop whining about hard things which I have as of now haha.

I'll replay EW1 in time for EW2. I'll leave it be for now, think I'll play Bayonetta.

It's fine. I guess I just have a different opinion on this.

Basically, the point where you say it's the fault of the player for getting grabbed in the first place, that's where I stop and make every effort to avoid that initial event.

I find the aim view way too zoomed in, it makes quick aiming and seeing seb difficult, odd how at some points you can aim regular over the shoulder(like in the saferoom), you can barely see his hand its harder to shoot close quarters namely with the pistol, shotgun also is less useful for crowd control because of it. i haven't tested shooting with no aim with shotgun, its manageable but an option would be nice. i've seen a pc aim fix. EW2 looks to be regular over the shoulder aim.

on nightmare mode; its the same as survivalist mostly except some appreciated enemy remixes, namely some invisible mobs used later on about chapter14 which has some nice changes. Ruvik clones are throughout whole game now, i do really like them they have instant kill grab thats well telegraphed and interrupted due to them functioning like standard mobs, reminds me of salvador in re4 who is just an instant kill regular mob with more life and a bit of armor from say knife and handgun shots,that is otherwise just as susceptible to mob stun states. Sadist is a miniboss like re5 chainsaw man so they fulfill a different role.

TIP;when you are in waist high water areas which makes sebs movement slow if you aim you will move faster, useful for getting around faster and away from foes. this can also speed up some walky bits but it depends for them.
you can also cancel reloads to skip the last part of its animation when its loaded already, useful when you have long reload times like sniper and shotgun.

So Roy if you get round to executioner dlc I've got some tips for you:

It's a slow melee type game like condemned criminal origins.

You can cancel melee attacks including dash attack with a side step which is the sprint butting tapped either left, right or back. To best use dash melee you need to use it far away, up close its hit box tends to miss but if it connects its big damage, again not much commitment since dash cancels.

Grabs can be used to throw an enemy into another which puts any mob hit into a stun state, so its often better than a instant kill move which gives you frames but only kills one foe,it also kills the thrown foe.

You get a fast machete for beating it, its very short series of combat arenas with EW bosses, smart asset reuse.

Use bear traps to trap foes like bosses to get big hits in, use molatovs and dynamite for crowd control and big damage to bosses. Chainsaw can instant kill regular foes, I don't tend to use it much as hammer is super good with upgrades. You seem to get more tokens for executions. You can buy a gold pimp hammer that drops more coins for kills on ng+ for beating Seb in a optional boss fight.

If you didn't know, you can stun the Ruvik clone Laura arms in place with a shock bolt, it looks silly they sort of spaz out in place. Don't know how else you can effect those arms, of course you can knock down the clone before they can summon or during a summon. Maybe a freeze bolt has the same effect.

Didn't know this. Nice find. You should test the freeze bolts and even explosive ones. It might be possible to kill the hands.

Im burnt out on playing EW for now, i'll ng+ before EW2 drops. I'm playing Max Payne 1, shadows of the damned and bayonetta as of now(trying to get sai fung). Was thinking of buying sengoku basara 3.

Also easy kill against amalgam alpha is to put explosive bolts around the break rooms you can enter, does massive damage and if quick enough you can pretty much skip its instant kill phase. You can also stun it if it's eye is out, hit the eye or use flash bolt to stun it.

Here's a nice Amalgam fight on Akumu.

On the topic of hitstun: I feel that there should be a limit to it at least. Enemy attacks are generally random so if getting hit results in you getting hit three times: fine. But I've seen scenarios like in games like Ninja Gaiden 3 where you'll just be combo'd to death if you were unlucky of off one mistake. I don't mind the mechanics that older games used where getting hit gave you a few moments of i.frames to re-adjust yourself.

That said in a game like this I don't really mind. Grabs are insanely slow and easy to dodge and most enemies outside of ranged ones will never hit you anyway unless you play extremely sloppy. If they get two hits in it's not that bad generally.

@Roy;Pretty much what i was trying to say. Something to give a small window of recovery is all, be it iframes or passive enemies giving you some space.I like room for error since i don't play on hardest modes, so its frustrating when a single hit can ruin me, just come on being hit during a grab that already is a punishment that's too much man. RE4 and dead space never had this issue, its only really a problem in a few areas in EW1(chapter6), anyway i'm done bitching about it haha.

And what I'm saying is you go back a step to before the grab happened. You know what grabs can lead to so you play well and watch out for them.

No point comparing to other game's mechanics. Take each game as its own thing and deal with it. That's what I do. If a game gives you i-frames, fine. If not, work around it.

At least in EW2 you can stockpile those bottles for free escapes.

@birdman; I know I agree with you, I just find being hit while grabbed is a bit much, I deal with it anyway. Some things I find more cheap than hard.
The bottle grab escape is a fix I appreciate.

On the topic of the original game, finally finished both DLC's with Kidman. Her wielding a gun felt so much more like Leon, especially the way she moved with it. Still it felt a bit ... hollow. Once you got the pistol the DLC became pretty boring - same with the Shotgun later-on. The final boss wasn't interesting to me outside of the Kidman clones that moved in a very scary manner. 

Considering finishing my Nightmare run but not sure where I'll get the time haha!

I'm playing it now on nightmare ng+, nice that it gives you a chapter select, I don't even like it that much I've no clue why I'm giving it another try. It's a glory run I guess, it's fun just decimating every enemy with just knuckdusters and op rocket and flame harpoon(which is likely a nod to re4 flaming crossbows, but NOW I HAVE THE FLAMING CROSS BOW).