Chaos Legion

Likely.

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NUR+ is complete. You were right, Stage 11 is the hardest 'proper' stage of them all. Stage 13 (before the boss itself) took me 2 tries, didn't even need to think a lot for a good strategy to beat it. For some parts, I'd lure soldiers to someplace where they couldn't reach me (like at the beginning, the soldiers were all at the lower level), or gather a crowd in a far away room, bomb them, and then run along to the main area that I was supposed to beat (like the final stretch before the staircase screen).

The 'boss' itself (or themselves) were quite a problem owed to the small cramped area. I used Blasphemy pretty much exclusively for the majority of the fight. Prioritized the cannons first, so when they were gone, I wouldn't have to worry about keeping them on camera (while leaving the robot off-camera) to see if they would be readying an attack. Then the rollers came up next. As with the cannons, they were dealt with via hit and run strats. Bomb them, then run around in circles to avoid the robot (if it dashed past me, I could use that chance to attack a roller once *very rarely twice* with a bomb). Then when they were gone, Malice destroyed the robot with the stun -> mash triangle for the duration of the stun -> repeat strat. And that was the stage.

The final stage... it was something else. I'd say it was about on par with the Clone War in GoW1 when you're attempting to beat it for the first time. At least, Siela was. Victor was relatively straightworward, but the rotating swords were an issue. Due to spending more time with the fight, sometimes the swords would move in a way that had me jumping to avoid the first sword, but a second sword was ready to kill me (nothing I could do about it, since I couldn't even land on the ground to immediately jump again). This happened a number of times. Thank goodness there are checkpoints in-between each boss.

Azrail was a test of patience. Some things couldn't one-shot you, but it still opened you up for a follow-up, which was certainly fatal. So I had to take it slow and pick my openings wisely to kick bombs, all the while hitting soldiers to get meter back (and I still had to take care of what Azrail was doing, or else I'd eat an attack and most likely die). I probably spent 25~ minutes on this fight.

But that was nothing compared to Siela. Of course, the same problem I had on my minimal grinding runs was multiplied by 10 times on NUR+. The mob phase. Especially when Siela decided to assist the mobs herself. But the worst part was dealing with her laser rain attack (the one with the telegraph about several red circles on the floor) while mobs were still alive. I think I had to fight her around 70 times in order to be able to win. Still can't believe I actually managed it. Tons of luck at play. And of course, the robots... I had to concentrate on multiple things at once when they were around, but still, it was unavoidable to leave them off-camera to focus on the projectiles of a gunner (either way, it was going to be an issue). I brought Flawed here because of its cheap Assist that was relatively good against the robots, and also because it made Sieg jump backwards for a small distance, unlike Malice's, which locked you in place (also because this distracted them for a short while), and also because it could be used as a trap (didn't need to wait for a robot to be close), but I had to contend with Despise (thought you had to upgrade Flawed in order to be able to use this at all, but that isn't the case).

So, despite the hardships I had to endure with Stage 11, I did enjoy the fact that the strategies I came up with proved effective when beating it. And I also learned a few things while doing the NUR+, while also helping me to get better at the game as well. However, I wouldn't really do this run again. At least, not the final stage. Like I said earlier, I may come back to Side B and the alternate encounter replacing Victor in Stage 11, but that final stage? Never again. Too luck based for my tastes, I feel.

So to wrap it up... Chaos Legion. What a fantastic game. It was very neat to get to experience another summoning system other than KH's in an Action game, and the weakness/counter hit system is a joy. I believe that pretty much everything in Sieg's arsenal (excluding Legions *that's another matter*) has a purpose, even the basic strings (other than to serve as a means to get to the finisher *which you can use instantly in vanilla runs anyway*). Already said my piece about Arrogance and Hatred (if I'm not mistaken) in that they could definitely have been handled better.

The only thing left for me to ask at this point is to ask you (Birdman) if there is something I missed (that I haven't noted in any of my posts) that you deem is worth mentioning to me. One of the things I learned during the run was that you can keep 'countering' enemies even beyond the first strike (which I believe deals x4 damage) without needing the enemy to do anything, but every subsequent 'counter' will deal double damage instead (much like the lock-on ray counter). I figured this by stunning a soldier with the ray, and attacked him with the first hit of the string. Waited for a little less than a second, and attacked him again. Another counter (but weaker this time). And you could pretty much counter him to death if he doesn't block (attacking him from behind solves the issue). However, the second hit of the string makes the soldier react differently, which makes you unable to keep countering. A faster way to take advantage of this is to attack with the delayed air slash over and over after hitting the soldier with the first hit of the string. However, the timing is a bit tight, and the hitlag caused by the counter may throw your timing off.

I will take a break from games for a bit, and then I'll play ZoE2. For those reading this line, CL is well worth your time.

>What a fantastic game.
Phoenix Wright

>worth mentioning
I think you have the game down more or less. There's stuff like early game counter hits that are risky and little things here and there.

>countering beyond first strike
The window is still open so with quick attacks that don't knock the enemy away, you'll be able to get in more if I understood your description correctly.

>have the game down
Skill-wise, I still have much room for improvement. And I may learn even more things in other challenge runs (as is usual for other games).

>counter hits that are risky
Like the counter against the big green guy?

>little things
Any and all things will be worth knowing.

>my description
Yes, something like that. The first hit of the string resets the window, while the second hit disallows more hits. I forgot to mention that subsequent counters becoming 2x damage instead of 4x affects Blasphemy's Assist at close range (the kick deals 4x damage, but it doesn't mean much since it's pretty weak, which leads to the bomb dealing 2x damage instead of 4x). This is solved by kicking the bomb against a wall, but I wonder about how risky this could be (certainly against crowds if the AoE isn't big enough *and even then, I wonder*).

NOTE: Since I have a NUR+ save file and a MAX'd save file, I'm quite curious about the relative difference between base power and max power (in a numerical sense), at least for Sieg's attacks. I could test this against an organic enemy like those green guys that appear in Stage 2 Side B.

Got the data.

Green Lizard (Stage 2 Side B initial enemies, just in case): 1200HP

Base stats (100ATK, Hard):

1st hit: 23 -> 47 -> 119

2nd hit: 35 -> 71 -> 179

3rd hit: 47 -> 95 -> 239

4th hit: 71 -> 143 -> 359

Aerial hit: 101 -> 203 -> 509

Delayed hit: 35/35/35 -> 71/71/71 -> 179/71/71

Blasphemy's Assist Lv 1: 11/250 -> 23/500 -> 59/1250

MAX stats (500ATK, Hard):

1st hit: 119 -> 239 -> 599

2nd hit: 179 -> 359 -> 899

3rd hit: 239 -> 479 -> 1199

Ground Zero: 749 -> 1499 -> 3749

Aerial hit: 509 -> ??? -> 2549

Delayed hit: 179/179/179 -> 359/359/359 -> 899/899/899

Blasphemy's Assist Lv 4: 59/600 -> 119/1200 -> 299/3000

Breakdown Lv 2: 629 -> 1259 -> 3149

Airblaze Lv 2: 479/149 -> ???/??? -> 2399/749

Spartan: 200/150/100/150/100/150

Perfect Thanatos' Normal Attack (Force Mode): 1800 -> 3600 -> 9000

Perfect Thanatos' Passive Attack (Passive Mode): 900 -> 1800 -> 4500

Perfect Thanatos' Force Attack (Force Mode): 1200/1200/1000/2000 -> 2400/2400/2000/4000 -> 6000/6000/10000/20000

Perfect Thanatos' Force Attack (Passive Mode): 600/600/500/1000 -> 1200/1200/1000/2000 -> 3000/3000/2500/5000

NOTE: Tested these in a bit of a hurry, so I couldn't test much. Numbers in these format (x/x/x) means the attack is a multi-hit. The first set of numbers before the arrows mean moves with base damage output. The following set of numbers mean counter hits via the lock-on ray (or if they are the second thing to hit the enemy after a primary counter hit). The final set of numbers refer to counter hits proper. There is no data for the MAX aerial hit (x2 boost) since I had Despise, and had no idea how to hit the enemy to get the proper data, but given the context of other numbers, we can get an idea on how much that one deals. Same goes for Airblaze.

Also, the delayed air attack doesn't get the primary counter hit's boost for all its attacks (the rest just get the secondary counter hit's boost), just noting it that way so you can get an idea on how much each hit would deal otherwise. Same goes for all other multi-hit attacks. Also, it seems that Blasphemy's Assist (the bomb) will deal x1 damage if you counter with the kick first.

Some interesting results. It seems the proper counter hit gives a x5 damage bonus, instead of a x4 damage bonus like I had initially thought. For Sieg, though, it looks like there's some rounding up shenanigans going on, since just multiplying the base numbers won't give you the noted numbers above.

And as for what I wanted to know, the difference between MIN and MAX stats. It seems to be ~ x5, as a primary counter with MIN stats will deal basically the same damage with a normal hit (without scoring any counters) with MAX stats. Ground Zero is different because I hadn't unlocked the move for it in my NUR+ file for testing purposes (as I said, I'm running out of time). Still, doing so will likely boost my stats a bit, so the results won't be the same.

>Like the counter against the big green guy?
Yeah that's one.

Lure him into running attack then attack with Sieg's first sword attack at max range then back dodge and repeat. Or side roll to get out of the way. Or Guilt assist counter right through it.

Can do similar to big lizard boss. Lots of things like this.

Can't understand a word about the numbers so not going to comment. I just know at some point the jumping spin slash will get strong enough to stun big greens, and it can knock down white spiders from the start.

>Lure him into running attack then attack with Sieg's first sword attack at max range then back dodge and repeat.
Got it. Will try this next time I play.

How safe is it to use the normal aerial attack when there is an elevation (green guy is above, you're below)?

>Guilt's Assist
I did use this, yes. Same for when he uses both hands to hit you with, though not sure how often you can counter with that.

>can't understand the numbers
In a nutshell, the gap between base ATK and MAX ATK is x5 damage. But you can close the gap with a normal counter (not the lock-on ray one), as that just happens to deal x5 damage.

>stun big greens
Yeah, though a Breakdown counter won't do anything to the palette swap version (orange one) at base stats. Had to learn this the hard way.

>knock down white spiders from the start
With counters, or with normal attacks? I also know that hitting them with multiple delayed air attacks can cause hitstun.

NOTE: It seems SBK would've been more interested to try the game, if he had known that this game was nothing but pure combat. I'm surprised you didn't mention this to him.

>How safe is it to use the normal aerial attack when there is an elevation (green guy is above, you're below)?
I wouldn't if his head is out of reach.

>Yeah, though a Breakdown counter won't do anything to the palette swap version (orange one) at base stats. Had to learn this the hard way
I can't remember if this worked, but I once tested doing Breakdown against this attack on an angle. The idea was to clip him and at the same time Breakdown's momentum would carry you off to the side. I got this to work on Siela's red dash attack and it got me out of the way of the monsters that pop up. Or maybe the i-frames were still active. This is in my old notes and hasn't been tested for like 13 years so I'm not sure how accurate it is. Eventually I'll retest everything and make new notes.

>With counters, or with normal attacks?
Normals. And I think that fourth hit of the sword string will hitstun in isolation. I tested it by whiffing the first three. That's what gave me the idea that each attack has an attack value vs enemy def value. If you have higher atk you'll put them in hitstun.

I know the delayed air attack works. But it that because there's a multi-hit element to bypassing their defenses? Or does one of those hits have more base atk than the others?

>surprised you didn't mention this to him.
Thought I did. But we've have been messaging about so many games for years now. I can't remember what I've said.

>idea for making Breakdown work against the stronger version
I think I understood half of it, but still would like to see some sort of demonstration.

>make new notes
I'll be sure to read them as soon as you post them.

>normals
I see.

>But it that because there's a multi-hit element to bypassing their defenses? Or does one of those hits have more base atk than the others?
I have a theory that it works a bit like a hidden meter. It rapidly decreases each time it isn't taking a hit.

For example, let's say that for the spider to be stunned, you need to go past a threshold of 120. Delayed aerial hits deal 35DMG per hit, so that's 105 for build-up of this hidden meter. By the time you jump again and do the slash, the meter would have decreased to, say, 90, but the following hits outpace this, so the next hit (or the one after) is successful in stunning the spider.

Not sure if I was clear on this. And like I said, it's just a theory. I haven't looked in CE to see if this is actually the case.

>can't remember what you said
Understandable.