Dragon Ball

This topic covers the franchise as whole. Discuss anything and everything related to the matter. Canon or otherwise. New and old. Debates, theories, questions, comments, concerns, fan content or whatever.

As something to get the ball rolling, allow me to REMIND:

Akira's Toriyama's Will:

I've read all the original manga back in analog times, and I'm fairly certain Toriyama couldn't write any narrative to spare his own life. The DBZ Anime adaptation has atrocious filler that kills any stiffy for the fights. And I never played any video game based on it, ever.
Buuut...Toriyama's characters are indeed highly recognizable, even if one never heard his name.

Am I unqualified for further progression?

There's a lot of bad DBZ games, but some really good ones too. Budokai Tenkaichi 2 especially nailed the fights I feel, fun game.

^ I played that one, it's indeed a fun title.

I've got a couple of questions about Z:

-In the earlier parts of it, we see Piccolo destroying a moon without breaking a sweat. But we also see SS-tier ki blasts collide with the Earth, and nothing bad happens to it. One person whom I had an argument with said that the characters used 'controlled' blasts in order to minimize damage done to Earth... while also attempting to harm an SS-tier character with said blast. My question is, does the manga ever address anything about 'Ki control'?

-Does physical strength, speed, etc. increase linearly with SS multipliers? As in, Base Goku from Buu saga cannot lift 40 tons, but when going into SS, he can now do so. But does this means that his strength increased by whatever is the multiplier for SS1? I heard the x50 one might not be official.

-Was Cell's statement about being able to wipe the solar system just a bluff? Because Kid Buu, who's stronger than Cell, could only destroy a single planet. People once again claimed that he was controlling his Ki to explain this discrepancy, because "he didn't need to destroy more than necessary", but come now. Kid Buu went berserk, how could he possibly have been 'controlling' his Ki?

-Here's an infamous question often asked in the DBG board. Super Buu vs Kid Buu. Who wins? I do believe it would be the former, judging by Goku being scared to fight him. But some people there say that when the pods were ripped off from Buu and he went into his muscular form, his Ki was said to have increased, instead of the opposite. When he turns into Kid, there is never a mention of his Ki ever going down, thus Kid > muscular Buu > Super.

-And on a slightly related note, SS3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan. I personally think the latter wins, but people at DBG say that because Goku said "this still isn't enough to destroy Buu!" (this was said when he was making the Spirit Bomb with the power from Gohan and co.), this apparently implies that Gohan is weaker than Goku, and he stated that he was confident about beating Kid if he used his full power as an SS3. But Gohan's power wasn't "enough".

What are everyone's thoughts on Super? I enjoyed reading the original series, and Z, but I remember dropping Super 50 episodes in. The manga any better?

I love the character design and will watch/read/play anything that has it.

>There's a lot of bad DBZ games, but some really good ones too. Budokai Tenkaichi 2 especially nailed the fights I feel, fun game.

Budokai 3, Infinite World, Another Road, Super, and FighterZ.

> Gohan vs Goku
Sad to say, probably Goku, no matter how much I'd like Gohan to take it. Gohan is more powerful, but I still like to believe technique and experience counts for something in the series and Goku simply has much more fighting experience than Gohan. Gohan isn't a bad fighter by any means don't get me wrong, but Goku lives to fight, Gohan fights to live.

> Super
Didn't touch the manga. The anime was terrible until the Goku Black arc which had some cool moments and some abysmall moments. Tournament of Power was an exceptionally slow burn with a pretty great end-game. Seeing Goku get wrecked is always good fun. Gohan jobbed hard though, which made me pissy.

Zeni: >think AT can't write
Don't just think it. Know it.

>atrocious filler
Just tons of the stuff to sandbag (waiting for source to adapt) when not cashing in. Sometimes the dramatics help, one filler tickles the masses, a few original scenes are cherished, etc. While the anime can provide an arguably superior experience, it is drastically inferior for understanding 'what is'. You will know fuck-all about the matter relying on the normal fan experience with the franchise.

>never played any of their games
I've played plenty. A dumb ass turn-based JRPG in Nip (can't understand a fucking thing) and tons of shitty fighters (only 2D outside the one trying to be taken seriously before FighterZ). Didn't really mess with the fanmade ESF directly nor Hyper Dragon Ball (or whatever).

>unqualified for further progression
There is always room, friend. Let's start with things that should be perfectly obvious. The iconic Kamehameha? It is SHIT relative to other techniques. Roshi is a fucking failure as a martial arts teacher (and a person). Crane is better (just as even GG is superior to KMHM).

Roy: >Tenkaichi
Not-ESF was never particularly appealing to me. FighterZ is mainly (for me) held back by going the 3v3 route of MvC. Amusing party stuff, but not my style (1v1). I'd prefer just a bit more depth on the character level. I'd settle for non-T Budokai (B3 in particular though elements of future bastardizations have some place) with character creator (if only just existing parts as a base *no need to waste resources on some lame ass story to use it in, just make the gameplay work*) while retaining character leveling.

>probably Goku
Not a fucking chance.

>s-ski-
Not a fucking chance. He's too slow and too weak to do jack fucking shit to even Supes, much less the guy who absolutely DOMINATED his asshole. Gokek can NEVER get to his level, either. SS3 is treated like the pinnacle of transformation forms (even though it suffers from being a crap case with a downside to contend with). There really isn't much more for him as a pureblood inferior to superior CHAD mutts (hybrid master race) much less one with a form that takes into account having such things, removes their weaknesses and tosses in power beyond the actual limits for giggles. Gohan was always set to be stronger than his father (like any hybrid, really), but suffered from not giving a solitary shit about realizing it. Being gifted the power made things simple. If daddy got the same? He wouldn't even measure up to Breakfast's nuts. He would be lucky to get on the level of Supes this way (taken beyond his limits). Difference in fighting ability counts for little oftentimes. Plans, too. Rare are the exceptions. This would not be one.

>like to believe a lie
You deceive yourself. That's all.

>Black
Xicor?

>slow-burn
Should have been an actual tournament if they couldn't handle a battle royale format. So much waste.

>great end
>irrelevant rehash of multi-time spouted mumbo jumbo martial arts religious crap for another lazy ink-saving form
>lizard gets a nod before fully falling below the surface as a glorified Rita Repulsa (gag villain)
I don't know about all that.

>jobbed hard
The manga gave him a more respectable end by having him beat Kefla to a draw, gets complimented and the two RO one another. Still got punked as "captain" among other slights.

Wright: >we see Junior take out the Moon
Roshi managed it while vastly inferior in power with a crap move.

>one person said [headcanon]
See? There is a lot of this sort of thing (fan's trying to cove for the failings of the material).

>ever address the matter
Hell, no. AT doesn't give a shit and raffs at you for even caring to think about it (much less ask the question to another living being). One of his earliest gags gave away his stance on questioning his gag comic excuse to draw silly martial arts shit with garbage food puns and shit jokes while lewding jailbait and mocking gays, non-Japanese (no Japan on this Earth, but you get the idea), etc. It would become his masterpiece (and his personal Hell with no real hope for escape *not after tax evading like a retard*). Poor old man won't get to fulfill his dream of peeping on his daughter at this rate. I suppose inserting his pet cat as a moving goalpost in some drunken napkin scribbles used to milk fans will have to suffice (until he can find a new way to shit on and spite the fans along with his hated editors *reigning in Japanese Lucas's bullshit*).

>linear increase
No way to know.

>heard x50 is not official
Oh, it is official alright. But that doesn't make it canon. The only canon modifier (that doesn't just proclaim what it is at a given time *the super dropped KK technique*) stated is from Oozaru. AT talks like he thought SS was that, but then realized how that doesn't work (KKx10 was what Gokek was passively doing against Fridge only to job even when going to x20 KMHM against 50%'s one-handed block). Not like he ever wrote it as being x10 either as we've seen far less than x2 mean one-sided beatdowns, no-sells, insta-kills, etc. The thing had a drain invented to excuse future nonsense when it acted like it restored lost stamina and healed Gokek while supposedly filling him with rage (that he reigned in to act like a total buffoon with). FPSS was a lovely strawman event (to follow that with SS3 was just delicious *genius that Tardku is...this is the guy who nearly killed himself with his own attacks, ate a bean and zenkai'd into overtaking Vegeta who was under the impression it couldn't be self-inflicted*).

>just a bluff
Unknowable. However, know this. Their celestial bodies are NOT ours. They are vastly less in quantity and size. Even without getting into official (non-canon) material as with a map of the universe (scale talk can't stop the reality that is the suggestion the ENTIRETY of their universe fits in the gap between our Earth and Mars *so half the size of our star*), scaling is often not encouraging (how things look relative to Earth). Clearly vastly different landmasses (aside from furries, dinosaurs, magic, etc.) and other maps don't exactly lend themselves to thinking the planet large, either. That's before considering how close and TINY the Moon is in canon. There are only four galaxies in this universe (King Kai presiding over the 'North', which is effectively the DB version of our Milky Way). No real signs of Blackholes (AT really isn't much of a Science guy *dude just likes silly mecha, old cars, guns, etc., not the details about how they work else he would do sci-fi properly instead of just using it like off-brand, magic-lite*).

>could only destroy a planet
Just like 'Geets (on first appearance), yes. That benchmark remains the highest canon feat demonstrated (for Vegeta it was talk *no real reason to doubt him*, but it was shown as reality through Frieza).

>DBG
Those nerds need more REMINDERS. I intend on a yearly one concerning THE SCORE, at least. I've done enough with /dbs/ to infect their culture properly.

>who wins
Ignoring slim chance cases, the obvious answer is Supes. Kid is at the level of SS3 Gokek (who was scurred *as you denote*). No such reaction to Mr. Purity.

>ki went up
Last gasp of a previous form only for it to pass away. Don't be mislead by those having a laugh. There isn't genuine support for the Kid side here.

>Gokek or Rice
Rice, obviously. He mogged Supes who shits on Worst Dad. Same issue as the previous staple "argument".

>still not enough
The technique's fault, obviously. The thing is dogshit. It never occurred to these kids to accept the realities for what they are (SB being grossly inefficient at the best of times is one of them).

>he was confident
That jackass bullshitted through the entirety of that saga talking out of his ass (all the big-game in the world until Big Daddy Supes casts his gaze upon him). That motherfucker couldn't take MAJIN Buu (Mr. Buu is another story *as would be Evil Buu*). His candy ass would tucker out shy of ideal conditions for his form. He lacks the magic to deal with Buu's stamina, so he needs not be more than equal (and his most potent option is low tier, so it seems unlikely he can get the kill against the hax regen). All the coping with talk of future generation protectors and such can't throw the watchful off the trail. He's a hack fraud. That dipshit let Earth get blown up (couldn't even stop Vanishing Ball after Vegeta gave him a chance to react by stopping the first attack), only rescued the most useless people (up to Vegeta to make some use of them *though better could have been done for sure with Dende*) with help from the Supreme Know-Nothing, horsed around some more while STILL not understanding his jobber form, etc.

Firm: >how is Super
Terrible.

>the manga
Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Still not exactly good at the best of times (like GT).

Birdman: >love the character design
Clearly you refer to Officer Black, Popo, Blue, Otokusuki, GT in general, Super in general, etc.

>Clearly you refer to Officer Black, Popo, Blue, Otokusuki, GT in general, Super in general, etc.

What?

>perfectly obvious

What was Goku's power level when using KKx3 + Kamehameha (or was it x4? Correct me if I'm wrong)? Depending on your answer, I would agree with you that it settles Kamehameha's power relative to other techniques.

>Super Buu

I just remembered something that further supports the idea that Super > SS3 Goku (and thus, Gohan > Goku):

-Goku: Wait! Even though his (referring to Super Buu) power went down considerably, we're simply no match for him!

-Vegeta: Well, what else can we do?

-Goku: If only you hadn't destroyed the Pothara...

^ That was said when the pods were ripped off from Super (but not Mr. Buu's).

>fans trying to cover for the failings of the material

One of them even said that Goku not being able to lift 40 tons in the Buu saga was contradictory and therefore not canon, because Goku supposedly did more impressive stuff even prior Saiyan Saga.

>smaller celestial bodies

Interesting. So it's more proof that Z characters didn't come close to lightspeed (people like to bring up SS Gotenks' flying around the Earth feat to prove that he was lightspeed).

>reminders

Oh, you are familiar with the DBG board? Interesting. Don't feel like going there again myself, those Kid vs. Super/SS3 Goku vs Gohan topics made me lose respect for the community, as I'm pretty sure I saw at least 10 topics about it, with each one of them having 500 posts each, so why bother engaging with people that will never learn from their mistakes? They even rehash the same points used in a previous topic. Ugh.

>don't be mislead

Just trying to see if my understanding of DB is correct (would hate to use misinformed points in a possible debate). Seeing that you answered Super and Gohan to my "who wins" questions (which I already presumed who would be the respective winners) tells me that I'm not completely clueless about it.

...that said, this will probably surprise you. I have not read the original DB manga (which, if I'm not mistaken, explains how I brought up Piccolo in regards to the Moon thing, but not Roshi, unless that happens in the earliest parts of Z).

>can't get the kill against hax regen

If only he knew Neo Tri-Beam (Tien could hold freaking Semi-Perfect Cell in place with that technique, even without power boosts like KK or fusion).

Birdman: >what
A fine list of fine designs (among countless others).

Wright: >what was Gokek's PL
I'll start simple (then get to the details). He was using the same modifier that let him dominate Vegeta just a moment earlier. That's more than enough by itself (as there is no note of him losing power before the duel). Gokek's base is 'over 8K'. Less than 9K, but more than a flat 8K. Somewhere in that range. Low-balling (as I'm a nice guy) to just 8K is what I offer. He used KKx3 (~24K). He had an advantage of 33% (what Vegeta had against Cui when he struck him once for a seeming TKO before turning him to giblets *even less of a gap sees minor effort insta-killing Dodoria*).

KMHM was explained in the bout with Raditz as focusing ki into a spot to project a PL beyond the fighter. It was just x2.2* (when going over the before/after readings). SBC was x3.26, but took so long owed to the improvised nature (one-handed was not meant to be *he does it properly in a moment against Nappa later*). This noted, it was found wanting against GG. A mere tie despite that advantage? Clearly GG is 33% superior (~2.93x modifer *higher without low balling, obviously*).

It wasn't until KKx4 (taking him over 32K *exceeding 77% advantage now*) that the beam was able to overtake Vegeta (projecting a hit akin to ~71K *against Vegeta's 18K body*). The result? Vegeta goes for a ride, hops off and takes emotional damage with a bit of armor worse for wear. Those advanced models (which they wear) really pulled through for him (they sure didn't do shit for Raditz), eh? Jests aside, TANKgeta blew that shit off and took no noted loss in PL until using Power Ball. KMHM? Yeah, it's fucking shit. But the REMINDER doesn't stop there. Not at all. This is just the part concerning GG being superior to this 'equivalent' attack. I'll shit talk Roshi up and down (while praising Crane and Vegeta) in short order should you wish for it.

>Gokek still too scared of Supes
>at that moment
You've not dealt with the goofs enough to know their response, then? I get a lot of silly talk in response to the facts. Some rather humorous copes, too (not always jokes, but plenty funny). For this one, it is just talk of how he only meant while they were tiny (and he totally wanted a piece when he got out). One of the best responses to THE SCORE was attacking the first win as not being Vegeta's, but Oozaru Vegeta's (because he is too different to be the same person *yeah*).

>contradictory and therefore
Tell them to cope, concede and KNEEL like the dogs they are. Canon doesn't work that way.

>did more impressive stuff
"Proofs?" - The good doctor (a scholar of /dbs/)

>lightspeed
Physics don't work that way. Even with more power than the universe, this is not attainable without changing the rules in some fashion. Even putting that aside, there is no time scale given (just that it would be in less than thirty minutes). Apparently 7.5 times...in a second is what light can do. Even as a filthy secondary anime-only know-nothing, the lesser continuity of the adaptation depicts nothing of the sort. Barely 1.5 laps. The manga is not precise. Brief conversation, the laps, a nap of indeterminate length and Piccolo turns up noting they have less than a minute left (of 30). The claim is a few dozen times in what would roughly be 28 minutes. "Few dozen times"?

Even allowing for that to mean three (not two) sets of 12 (36 laps), that's not even enough to match what light can do in 30 seconds (225 laps). How much is a few? Surely not 9, but let's allow it. What do you get? 108. Still not cutting it. Was this nap 27 of those minutes? Still doesn't help his case. Light in a minute is 450. Let's not kid ourselves here. And their Earth is SMALLER than ours by some impossible to determine (precisely) amount while we're having light do the real 'outside track' with marks rigged against it at the finish line. Basically, tell them to eat shit for life on my behalf.

>familiar
Quite so. Though they best remember me by another name, there are some that will no doubt recall my previous reminder session here: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/77468291

>lost respect over a samefagging jester having a giggle pretending to believe horseshit
There are plenty of good reasons to think low of the community. About as many as there are of Gokek fans, as it happens.

>rehash
Yes, yes. While acting as if they won the previous encounter, you were convinced of their rightness, feigning incredulity at being proven wrong, etc. A familiar approach by disreputable sorts merely having a go (and bad actors).

>didn't know about Roshi
You'll want to know these things. For instance, the Moon thing is when Gokek using his fucking power pole to extend all the way to the fucking place which is shown as not that far from Earth (and quite small as can be easily gathered by examining the curvature). AT doesn't fret over details enough to even say something wrong like how this is meant to be the same as our universe more or less. You can only work with what is shown. That being the Moon is far closer and way smaller than the real deal. My home is bigger.

>if only he wasn't a baby-bitch shitter too retarded to handle learning CHAD beam
Indeed. If only. A pity the 'zooming in' (telescope shit) stuff is anime-only. Were the case otherwise, the DBM notion of magnifying the attack by firing through multiple 'lens' would be a valid one. Just imagine it. 'Four Witches' technique gives him a second set of arms. It would not be additive, but multiplicative (you know this means runaway). Even if you lie to yourself and pretend the fucking thing is just x3 (less than SBC *again, just allow this injustice for a moment*), the moment you add another pair of hands you're talking x9. Had he upgraded it to 'Asura' (six arms), this would go to x27.

But I'm not done yet. Then you have to consider his multi-form technique. That's a split of himself evenly between copies (and only that many with that restriction *at present*). Sadly, he never levels this to 'six paths' or does anything notable with it. Even just sticking to the canon of 4 (3 copies), you divide the 27 (6.75) before putting it through three more doses of x27 (~x133K). Would it just annihilate the clones down the line? Seems like it would, but boy what an impact it would make for. Again, pretending it was just x3 (and going with the anime depiction of focusing the fire through his hands *the manga depicts nothing of the sort, but we still have the crazy feat you've listed from a guy who has no business being anywhere near First Form Frieza much less Semi*).

NOTE: We can go even more wild with 6 splits, then sprinkle in KK and fuse (if only the dance) with himself in a broken exploitation of the system left unexplored.

YES.

^GT Pan and GT Bra. What an insight into the man behind the myth, eh?

>couldn't get the win despite having a significant advantage

Geez, no wonder you say that Kamehameha being shit should be perfectly obvious.

Also, I was under the impression that Goku's PL was 9000+ (given that famous meme), but then I thought I saw a different number when reading the manga. That's why I asked for clarification.

>Roshi

I want to say yes, but I feel I must first read the DB manga first to have better context on what you might say. Might be worth noting that I didn't even watch the anime either.

>not dealt with the goofs

Actually, you just reminded me of it. I now recall someone (pretty sure it's someone who goes by Luminaire) arguing about Goku's "true" meaning behind his words, even though there's no evidence supporting that stance.

>Oozaru Vegeta's win

HA!

>tell them to cope

I'll keep that in mind.

>on your behalf

You're that famous around these parts? In any case, noted.

But anyway, how would you feel if there's someone who believes Goku was lightspeed sometime prior to Saiyan Saga? If that was the case, then why is it that Goku took so long to get to the end of Snake Way?

>link

Oh man, those usernames. It's all coming back to me. I recall that the reason I left that place was because someone claimed that Kid Buu was SSG tier when he fought Goku, because Super will eventually lead into EoZ, and EoZ Goku says that Kid was the toughest opponent he faced up to that point. Nevermind the numeous retcons Super made if we were to say it's canon, or the obvious fact that Super came around many years later.

>SSJ

See, I don't know why English speakers use this acronym to refer to that transformation. It's one thing for an Spanish speaker to use it (like myself), as they're referred to as "Saiyajin" here. But where does the "J" come from in the word "Saiyan"?

>broken exploitation

I... hadn't thought of it that way. So much missed potential.

Piccolo is my favorite.

Wright: >no wonder
It gets worse if you can believe it (like there existing a technique allowing ignoring of PL gaps to fully deflect the shit back to sender for free, which seems like a problem to me). While it does have utility demonstrations, it isn't like this is ever suggested as a unique quality of the attack (and GG itself is called an equivalent to begin with).

>9K+
Would only make it worse. As you say, that is a reference to a meme from a dubbing mistake on an oversold line.

>must read the manga
Why not both? I don't mind leading off. You can get started at your leisure: http://mangahasu.se/dragon-ball-v6-p3288.html

>didn't watch the anime either
Quite the qualifications, but you may be surprised to learn this is also commonly the case (yet I'll have Gokeks strongly opposing the absolute canon truths laid before their feet).

>someone going by
Lemmings.

>recall
If I'm not mistaken, I've seen you on the boards before.

>HA!
Thus my making of this helpful image to mock what is hopefully a jest (posing as a scrub) in reality:



NOTE: Right-to-left should be obvious. Smaller font for things said more quietly. A fairly obvious point is made about hypocrisy without getting into the larger matter of scrub mindset. I've made others (though often leaving it to just the filename delivering the goods *as with pointing out how SKW gave Gokek passive Oozaru, but he was still only half as strong as his low-class brother despite many zenkai and lots of training with 'great masters' up to that point*).

>that famous
Infamous, rather. And some of the regulars will recall my previous handle better (along with the talking points I introduced to their board culture).

>how would I feel
Nostalgic. This talk started with Raditz and a dub line.

>so long
We even know the measurement of the thing (about the approximate time frame he traveled along it *both ways*). It is that canon notation that I used to really shit on the official (non-canon) depiction of the universe globe (including Other World and the often ignored Makai, which does exist in DB's canon *Dabura is not from Hell like Devilman, but this place*, but really doesn't get covered). It reaches from the central point (check-in station) all the way to one edge (no reason to suggest the North is well away from the 'glass'). Even generously expanding it with a straightened out version of the path won't significantly alter the reality here (when doubling for circumference). Tiny.

>SSG tier
>tier
That's a problem by itself (for another time), but first to address SSG. We have no way of knowing how much gaining 'god ki' improves someone even officially (within any continuity). There are no official guides for the matter unlike with even GT. Nothing in the material gives a clear picture on the matter (at all). As for Kid being on that level, Gokek's SS3 was one-shot by AT's cat's self-insert (Billy) and couldn't touch Mr. Whiskers (he always jobs to cats *see: Puar and Korin*). Kid as at that same level. A level 'angry' (muh buruma) Vegeta's SS2 exceeded. Putting that trivia aside, we have no way to divine the difference in the before and after as Beer Boy was lying (and AT was bullshitting for raffs) about how hard he tried (we didn't have a before and after rating of SS3 Gokek to SSG to begin with). Likewise, we know jack-shit about SSB (SSBE is also confusing as it ought to just be USS, but is somehow either SS2's official match at x2 or an absurd x20 to keep up with the meme top output of KK for Toei's telling of events *not even a thing for Toyo*). Then there is Omen/Sign (UI) and UI (MUI), which dorks deny as being more than a technique (clearly also a transformation in terms of PL and not just appearance).

NOTE: Leaving the stuff to just Saiyans is absurd (as with their being some hand-holding ritual to just gift it, but it requires goodness *why should it* and SS *again, why*).

>never mind the retcons
Including Gokek saying X new person is now the toughest, strongest, etc, yes. Even without it, he was up against Buutenks (technically present for Buuhan, but didn't so much as attempt an attack there) whom he didn't dare try to fight (unlike Kid). Buu himself (knowing himself) called this the mightiest state he's ever had (and not just concerning his new ID as 'Supes' *considered a different person from the good side or the pure original*). Again, the lad is just having a go.

>J
Allow me to explain the matter. "Saiyajin" (or Saiya-jin"). A word for people of Saiya (jin meaning "people"). What is Saiya? Nothing more than a pun (as usual), but it should be the proper name of a city, nation, empire, planet, etc. Something other than just the people/race (otherwise they should be the Vegeta-jin *to note it, we have never seen Vegeta's father in canon nor is he depicted, but it is known the boy surpassed his father while still a youth while having been named after the planet owed to his high PL at birth*). The honorific in question by grammar rules is NOT to be used at all for an abbreviation (in this case, an initialism). It is incorrect to do so at all (and officially wrong *as another matter*). That is why it is "SS" (when Romanized, it becomes "Saiyan", but we don't say "SSN" *or SSn*. Meme complaints as with sunken ships, nazi talk, etc. have no merit. Just how it is. The origin would be weebs who needed more language lessons. Now we have kids making fallacious arguments in favor of continued use (popularity, legacy, etc.).

>so much missed potential
If allowed to work (even with the time it lasts shortening with each merger *30m down to 7.5m for the 4 way case and perhaps 3.75m for 6 way IF there were a way to make that work clean given the fused selves have one uneven partner as the oddman out to contend with, which could affect the outcome*). One way to get Tien back on his feet. Another shortcut would be Mystic for just gaining all he can be (and beyond) in terms of natural ability. This through magic, which another means being SCIENCE (magic by another name). Have Bulma stop being lazy and copy Gero's work to cybernetically enchance the man at a cellular level as with 17 and 18 (two regular human twins presumably *prior to being kidnapped*) would take him further. Allowing for Super, god ki (no good reason only Saiyans can have it *just that UI seems like a trump for all things*). Obviously, he needs King Kai to have taught him KK for going beyond whatever he gets with the all this, too. Doing all this bullshit in tandem with the multi-arms and multi-form anime-continuity fanon for Tri-Beam would let him punch insanely high above his true base 'weight' (PL) without just resorting to ECW (sealing).

Recall that AT buried Oozaru and KK both in unmarked graves (without a further word on the matter). These are canon sources of modifiers (too troubling for a man who wants to fudge things instead of being corrected for numbers not adding up). Hell, if one is being honest, you shouldn't even expect that by the point of the beam struggle with GG...that AT even factored the talk from the Raditz battle in the slightest (so mocking 50% Frieza one-handing KKx20 KMHM as nonsense given what we are given from official values and canon demonstrations of how power gaps tend to go is...just to be done for laughs). In short, he "forgot" (willfully or otherwise). As usual. Moving away from PL stuff, back to ECW. Tien already survived using it directly on a foe much stronger than him. We never see PL gaps mattering much in this matter (nor does it come off like the cost scales up, really *logically, neither should Power Ball, which is a fun thing to talk about regarding SS4 and how it should be easy to exploit early when allowed for*). Even IF it scaled up, multi-arm should be able to help a little, but multi-form can help a ton. Divide up the workload (as it isn't really a PL matter). One to do the technique, another ready to deal with a possible reversal, the third for placing the object (a catcher for the pitcher) and the last at the ready to slap on the seal. Only those DOING the move would pay the toll, so even if he was at death's door, it should be possible to cheat the system with more hax abuse.

NOTE: With GT logic, it is still stupid to allow Gokek to overtake Gohan. Only Vegeta should be able to obtain the form let alone get much from it (as Gokek already has SKW *no double-dips allowed*). Hate the misnomer even more than with SS3, frankly. The form is super pointless when it should be natural, thus Mystic would be the better choice (god ki being ass-pulled into existence at least exists as some unnatural thing to escape Gohan's domination *so long as he isn't allowed to have any*) even before UI crops up.

Birdman: >Piccolo
I suppose we're talking about Pickle Junior, but allowing for his merged identity (Nail and later Kami), yes?

Forgot to address this, but in your previous post, when you said "DBM", you meant Multiverse, as in the fan manga?

>ignores PL gaps

Don't remember anything that did this. Is it shown in DB only, perhaps?

>link

Thanks. I'll start reading it soon, as I have a little bit of free time.

>seen me on DBG

Probably. IIRC by the time I stopped going there, I didn't know about this forum yet, nor I had met Raeng. The only two people I knew by that time were SBK and Hotel, and that was only because they were a bit active in the KH boards, which I used to frequent.

In fact, I didn't know that GMG, MrStarkiller, etc. were the same person until a month ago or so. That said, you know I don't go by "Phoenix Wright" on GameFAQs, yes?

>image

Hilarious. But I don't know whether it would be more hilarious (or not) if whoever said that was being serious.

>Kid being at SS3 Goku's level

To this day, I still wonder is they where really serious when claiming that he could go beyond that level. It's like not being able to see a red stain on a white wall.

>UI

Haven't read/watched anything past the ToP, but I heard UI can now be activated at will. Is this true?

>why SSJ must not be used

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

>Tien

To quote SBK: "If you're not a Saiyan, an insert for AT's cat or the main villain you're going to get shit on."

>meant the fan comic
The very same, yes.  It was a fun idea, but it is based in fanon interpretation of secondary continuity.  There is no basis in canon for thinking Tri-Beam has the option to stack with multiple hands or clones, sadly.  It is broken enough, just that the sole user...is not.  Still, there is hope in ways to boost the 'self' in this equation if not the move.

>DB only
Of course.  Hell, AT forgot about by the time Tien had a rematch with Gokek.  Even praised the MC for beating him without needing KMHM (like it wouldn't have worked in his favor).  Roshi is the one who tells us that the technique is why Tien is immune to KMHM (and that PL gaps make no difference to it).  Thus, Gero looks like a huge fucking asshole for using Gokek's useless early genes (especially with AT writing out KK and not allowing SB *not that it is worth shit used as intended*), but at least Cell made it right by getting a sample from later (for IT, which is NOT a bad feather to have in your cap though limited to having a ki signature to warp to *unlike the kai version that Kid copies, but costs a good amount of ki to use and begs the question how he you know where you are going without 'god eyes'*).  He should have taken a taste from Tien for Dodonopa, Tri-Beam, ECW (would have made a fool of SS2 Gohan should Tri-Beam have somehow been found wanting), multi-form, Four Witches and, of course, Crane-School Anti-Turtle Tech (not a fucking kiai like some dorks categorize it as those don't have a property like infinite PL gap ignoring).

Because it tickles me so, have this helpful PSA (with our lovely assistant 'the hobo mutt') and a word from Baba's pitiful little brother:

Too large for direct link:

NOTE: Just imagine Cell having this to save himself with against Gohan's kill stroke. Gero's computer was a tit for having him focus on the wrong parts of his DNA. Almost exclusively use Gokek's worst and just used passives from the others. Terrible.

>read soon
At your own leisure.  There is a fair bit and it is quite different from 'Z' in tone, so it may not be entirely to your liking at the start.

>SBK and Hotel
Both of which I've taught (my influence being more keenly felt on the former).

>didn't know
It is why AKheon credits me the way he does at the bottom of this FAQ: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps2/932295-god-of-war-ii/faqs/54994

>don't go by Wright there
That right?

>if they were serious
I'd like to think not, but you never can be too sure with the dipshits out there.  Best to ridicule them and their stated beliefs to be on the safe side.  Good ammo to shit on their 'team' with, too.

>if they were serious
I doubt the loudest pusher is, but there are certainly anime-only that actually play themselves by misunderstanding lines like 'most dangerous Buu' (among other things easily used to mislead).

>at will
We've seen that demonstrated with Omen, but I'm still waiting to see him show he can go in and out of UI as reliably.  The finish to the Moro fight suggests that is so (and that Uub dwarfs him casually *hilarious*).

>I see
Yes, it is unpleasant business for many to learn the truth.  That it was just weebs making a blunder and others going along with it unwittingly (in the desire for being in the know and being 'correct' with Japanese, they pretentiously clung to this as with 'correct' translations of the names *more understandable* with some insisting on saying names how the Nippon mispronounces some that are clearly not of the Moon tongue *Trunks becoming Toranksu owed to their inability to say that word as with Big Bang Attack being too much for Vegeta's VA*).

---

As before, SS3 and SS4 are misnomers.  I see no reason they should be called as such.  It is a pity SS2 is what it is (rather than just a hybrid's full potential).  The degree of worthlessness attached to SS3 is staggering.  Imagine needing Other World's higher planes (suggesting the lower sphere of Makai should make it even worse in my mind *sort of ties in with the oddity of OG Broly's LSS gathering ki while calling himself a 'devil', but that's non-canon territory*) AND a dead body to even be a tenable option.  At least GT gave it a way out with tails helping to stabilize the form.  Mystic STILL makes it useless crap.

Then there is SS4, which is nonsense for a few cosmetic reasons I'll skip for the time being.  GT's guide (which gets to have credence for being about as legit as the anime itself *not from AT*) runs with the modifiers, so SS4 is x10 of SS3 (already x4 of SS2 which is x2 of SS1's x50 *making SS4 x4K*).  Not really sure why it is ONLY that, frankly.  Oozaru is x10, but what about the Golden Ape?  Super Oozaru just x500 (SS plus Oozaru), then to surpass SS3's x400?  Why did Gokek get his ass beat so bad?  The concept of Golden Ape controlled for SS4 is a bit off to me.  Should probably have been mastering Oozaru beyond the level of even Vegeta to condense it as a new base (of x10 in humanoid shape) before stacking other forms on it (for higher multipliers).  Super Oozaru seems like a big mistake to me (though I get why they made the call back to their filler depiction of the original SS).

Again, Mystic makes this natural form redundant.  For Gokek, his having SKW means he already has the x10 modifier. Why does he get the damn thing TWICE?  He should be stuck at SS3's modifier, but without the drain (needing to use KK to make-up the difference and keep pace with Vegeta).  Why is it that they never need the qualifications for the form after first reaching it?  Would removing the tail even stop it (clearly a light source doesn't matter)?  Clearly it didn't matter for Vegeta (at all).  Maybe it is easier with the tail?  No, the only requirement is a certain amount of a (for no good reason) reflected light source.  Vegeta's Power Ball is able to do this early on at a cost to his ki (which would NOT scale, but the potential returns can easily fly beyond the penalty).  Ignoring the concept of making the thing's duration shorter in exchange for 'burning brighter' (higher output), we'll just pretend it can only be one way.

As you may recall, Vegeta only did this for lack of a full moon to work with (and it cost him enough of his 18K that he was suddenly performing worse than half-assing Nappa *upon losing his tail to be left with his powered down state from using the technique, which gives the impression of dropping to sub-4K*).  Vegeta says it is 17M of some unit to trigger the transformation.  Our moon is just one-fourth of our Earth.  Theirs is even less (by far *to a laughable degree*).  If you humor the talk of being like our set-up, that just means the seeming 14K cost multiplied by 4 (high balling a bit) would just rise to 56K.  He couldn't put this out by himself until post-Recoome, but upon getting at First Form Frieza's level (530K), he would drop to 474K before the x4K modifier (as he is already an Oozaru Master *no requirement for SS exists in actuality*) would take him there and then to nearly 2B (*if not able to make a bigger Power Ball, just toss four of them to gawk at*).  A silly pay-off to be sure.

He would very probably vanquish any and all beings in the DB universe at that point in the story.  If you want to make it more costly, have him need to cover for losing the tail, too.  Perhaps x10 the cost (meme use of the Oozaru multiplier again).  Make that 56K go up to 560K.  Suddenly that Vegeta cannot do it yet.  What of the Vegeta facing final form (after another zenkai)?  He's surely 2M or so.  2M would drop to 1,440,000 before rebounding to almost 6B (the window where it isn't worth it *the first time without being healed* to gain access to this nonsense is quite small).  Again, dominating the threats of the universe from canon (not so much from GT where they let nobodies be at this level and beyond pretty easily).

If I'm remembering right, the Power Ball he used needlessly lasts 2 hours for that 14K cost.  Could he NOT just make it last one-quarter the length (30m) and intensify the output (x4) for "SS4" (again, as if it has anything to do with the others)?  Not like he needs them around upon getting the form unlocked (or even his tail based on GT's showing of him with it).  Some balancing was clearly needed.  But that's enough on this matter for the time being.  Don't go getting conned with talk of FPSS4, either. That's a whole lot of whatever (along with fanon on Gogeta's red hair).  If we're talking fanon, the only thing I'd be curious about is LSS mixing with SS3 (if it could possibly offset the drain on its own to some extent).

Ikari is another form that would be better for Vegeta (who mastered the state), but is pointless in the face of Mystic.  Gokek?  He can't control the state (and him getting control from seeing the Earth *not Pan* is laughable along with suddenly being full-sized and mouth-blasting things).  Should have had training from his Prince to that end.  Again, SKW covers this, so Gokek couldn't handle (what appears to just be a mutant thing anyway) it.  A fusion with Broly would be just as berserk as such.  Vegeta with Broly?  That's another story.  However, again, Mystic should be the way to go (until you just trump all with UI).

>the very same

Interesting, didn't think you'd be interested enough to read a fanmade manga. What are your thoughts about it, in relation to the canon and non-canon manga?

>AT forgot

This seems like it would be some sort of meme. Wouldn't be surprised if it actually is.

I should note this, Google brought some news that caught my attention. It said something about Vegeta "finally" having his dream about overcoming Goku come true. It depicted Vegeta using a Spirit Bomb (or what "looks like it", according to the news).

>would have made a fool of Gohan

Indeed. But he DID have access to Galick Gun, and probably Final Flash. And yet, here we are.

>Kamehamewhatever
>Tienchadhan

Hahaha.

Seriously though, now I wish that technique was used in Z. Shame how things have turned out.

>former

I noticed. Like you, he has a tendency to call Goku and Vegeta "Gokek and Geets", respectively. I think I've only seen Hotel talking about DB twice, one on the KH boards, and the other was when he was arguing with a troll on the Mega Man 11 board, but I don't remember in what context the DB talk was used.

>man with a thousand names

Heh. Speaking about GoW, looking forward to playing it for the first time. Crimson told me that you still were in the mood to teach people new to the series.

>never can be too sure

Like with most GameFAQs users, about pretty much any topic you can imagine. Seen someone defending mediocre games because it taught him real life lessons. The one who said that was probably being sarcastic... or not.

>still waiting

You mean the manga will still continue past Moro saga?

>hybrid's full potential

I think I read that was originally the intention with SS2. Not sure if that was a direct statement from AT, or someone's guess.

>read fanmade
I've read a lot of such things (not just for DB) over the years. I'm just less thorough about it (understandably). AF, DMB and many, many more...

>thoughts about Multiverse
>relative to official material
If just working off canon, it makes a lot of mistakes (born of fanon). The Tri-Beam case isn't even the most egregious (not by a long shot). A common, but large mistake is Broly's LSS (and how it is interpreted). It was bad enough to include non-canon characters, but they went with the Funi Dub's misframing of how it worked (having it gather power over time *infinite strength so long as his body can take it* rather than ki *before needing release it, thus being more something that maintains his stamina pulling ki seemingly from the environment*). He gets wanked further to have no cap and then again by adding how his body is indestructible in that form.

Moving away from canon talk (there is a ton of it), there is second continuity problems (even before getting into how the movies are tertiary) like the one noted with Brocolli, but also overdesigned garbage like the excessive extra forms for Cold. Just terribly overdone. Putting the cosmetic aside, he was also wanked based on a misunderstanding. He is clearly in the second (restrained) state of his people. However, CANON says Frieza is stronger. The correct way to interpret this is that Cold just can't go to a higher form (thus this would be his 'true' self). AT didn't really put effort in, so had this been his grandfather and pops had a base of Third Form, you could at least get a generational improvement thing going on (dating back just one more generation to the 'first', which could be considered either the original state of his people or the first mutant deviation of the 'Frost' lizards/demons *fan talk*). Instead, he rolled with a what-if where he could go higher, but was just humoring Frieza (and got taken out by Trunks too quickly).

There is a lot that could be said on these matters, but I'll skip to the OC. A lot of it is bad. The actual Sue, Son Bra (waifu of the writer *with a nonsense name as Vegetto chooses Bulma, so humoring fan misunderstandings means she should be a Briefs even though Briefs is just the given name of the doctor and not his surname*), Vegetto (just too good *even somehow dreams up soul destruction stuff to ape tall talk from Gogeta*), etc. Perhaps the only to challenge Bra is Hanasia (in terms of wank). There are certainly many fine qualities (often the art is this *outside side-story stuff*). I stay away from the 'novels'. Again, a ton of fanon involved. If there is anyone or anything specific you want you go over, note it.

>wouldn't be surprised
Nor should you be. It is.

>his dream
His dream is not making his own version of SB and using it (to empower Gokek to get the final blow like some shitty Z movie finish). He had just gotten to be stronger (again) only for UI mastery to create a vast gulf (again). Form-for-form champ, that fellow. UI is not something that lends itself to non-idiot, non-sociopaths, so Vegeta is going to have to do without (and likely even Vegetto/Gogeta unless the writing sinks into the toilet where fan material often resides *which is not out of the realm of possibility given Super often apes just that while rehashing bad things from the past*). Also, SB (as it is) beats even KMHM for the most shit of moves. If you want it explained, ask away.

>did have access to GG
Which he never used (as I'd alluded to when blaming Gero's PC). Likewise, he had SBC.

>and FF
He didn't. Cell didn't get updated samples from anyone except Gokek.

>used in Z
The CHAD Triclops would have multi-form, four-arm gangbanged Launch to prove he isn't gay before using CSATT to MOG Cell's KMHM attempts. Teach that retarded bug to keep spamming that garbage move (and ONLY it).

>Hotel talking about DB
He doesn't care about that series. He'll just pretend to support Gokek (and like him for the negative qualities pointed out *jests like how he brilliantly played everyone by pretending to be retarded and making them love him despite his malicious antics including having a former rival raise his kids like a cuck, having a fawning wife he doesn't pay any mind save to get food and sex, etc.*).

>still in the mood
Always. Just more troublesome when I have to de-rust. I'm fully prepared for GoWIII and GoW:A talk, but would have to get myself together a little for GoWII (less so GoW1) if I'm going to be in tip-top condition. I'm not able to help much with the Clone War (for those seeking bonus credit *would be odd to help with a fight you've not bested yourself*) or Tranny W3 (I can offer tactics/tips and tons of videos, but the fight is chaotic in nature, so there isn't so clear cut a cookie-cutter path to victory for runners to follow). Those are problem cases. Likewise, those seeking bonus credit with GoW:A's VH PAIN+ ToA W1 better be ready for the long haul. Just knowing the method isn't going to make it much easier (to much lesser extent that holds to CoO's VH PAIN+ Persephone S2 *or even GoS's x2 Geryon bout*).

>Crimson
Was Red referring to you, then? Was wondering if it wasn't Star since he came out of the woodwork to speak with me again just a few days ago.

>first time
Lots to go over. Might be more enjoyable if your vanilla N (not H) experience is spoiler-free. Just take things in at leisure. Maybe ask questions post-run (keep notes). Vanilla VH is where you will probably want to check on chest guides and get some tips (and evaluation). Up to you. NUR and higher is where I tend to come into play though I can help sooner (with MAX runs and such, even). You should expect a lot of jargon to learn.

>past Moro
Fairly sure I'd heard that already confirmed. I forget. Uub seems about at the same age as in EoZ, but there is probably still time for more to happen (silly as that seems given the things added between the two spots). Not like the models and attires of the characters yet matches that point. A lot of the aging is missing, for instance. No, there is still time enough for more (and we've not really delved into the issue of facing off with angels *Hell, Gokek STILL isn't implied to be as strong as Billy Cat Man*). There are universes that got erased we still don't know much about, but then we haven't even (in canon) explored the Makai. Or fulfilled the promise to visit Planet Salad (a ton is left on the plate, really *like figuring out what to do with Nu-Broly who is not meant to be treated as Tarble*). They seem reluctant to go beyond EoZ again.

>original intention
Just the implication of the notation about how the form was Gohan's potential (later to be reinterpreted as the display of power as being that anger harnessed, not the form itself being exclusive to him or hybrids in general). I don't believe AT ever says anything like that. The guy barely even recalls SS2 existing (at one point he thought SS3 was that).

>AF

Alongside DBM, they're the only ones I can recognize. Never watched or seen anything about AF, though. I do remember my friends talking about crazy stuff like SS10, one of them even showed us an image of that form to "prove" Goku could go into said form when we questioned him. That was probably 12-13 years ago, though.

>LSS

Can't remember if I even watched the full movie, so I have to admit that I did think Broly could increase his ki as much as he wanted. Didn't help that in the recent movie he could fight Goku and Vegeta in Base, despite both of them going into SS and even SSG (is it just me, or are multipliers a joke at this point?).

>fine qualities
>art

Agreed.

>DBS Vegetto/Gogeta

With the time limit thing being retconned, is there an actual advantage for choosing either of them? Now that I think about it, is the 'rival boost' canon?

>want it explained

Please, go ahead.

>samples

I see. Perhaps I should also read the Z manga again. Been a long time.

>haven't bested the Clone War

That is surprising. I thought you were among the very few people who accomplished it.

>referring to me

Yes.

>spoiler-free

Outside Roy's article (which now I can't remember any specifics regarding the mechanics, except for small stuff like killing enemies in a specific way rewards you with health, if I'm not mistaken), I haven't read or seen anything else about GoW. However, I did play one of the PS2 games (can't remember which one) for about 30 minutes.

>jargon

Too right. I don't understand some things (like SKW, CSATT, and ToA). Still doing an effort to keep up (like researching for a word or an abbreviation I haven't seen, if I can find it on Google).

>Cat Man

Not sure if Goku or Vegeta will ever get surpass him. Pretty sure the amount of power he claimed to have used against SSG Goku (in the movie) was retconned in the anime, not even when they now have access to SSB, SSB+KK (Goku), SSBE (Vegeta), and UI.

By the way, is Bills a misspelling?

>thought SS3 was SS2

Wow.

>recognize
Meaning, know of or acknowledge?

>not too clear on the former
There is a lot of nonsense involved. Zammy as BLACKu apes Xicor heavily. Neither is really well realized, frankly.

>kids talking of nonsense
I'm not unfamiliar. The webpages (and forums) of old gave way to wikis archiving that sorry history (now just good for laughs at those hungering for more *to the point of absolute absurdity*).

>recent movie he
Not him. Nu-Broly is another person in appearance, personality, rearing, etc. He's about as much Broly as Kale was. Both of those aping him ran with the nonsense (ever-increasing power *until they didn't and it was time to job*).

>multipliers are a joke
They don't exist (for SS). They were never canon and though Super tends to run with the anime adaptation's continuity, that is hardly an absolute (both versions of it *a third being movies* do as they please as it pleases them to do). Again, Super didn't bother to even do as GT did with a guide even pretending to make sense of SSG, SSB, etc. Nothing concrete is offered (to be used against them *we have other ways, of course*). Ikari opened itself up to being shit on for involving itself with Oozaru (which has a canon modifier).

Toei's version of Super insists on using KK (all the way up to x20 *never treated like the degree of change suggested as should a foe be even double your power, it is improbable you survive their attacks long enough to fuck around*), which creates problems like making it such that Gokek should (on paper) be vastly stronger than Vegeta, but results suggest Vegeta is just that damn good (keeping up anyway).

NOTE: Going over how SKW paints the picture of Gokek's hilarious natural inferiority to his fellow Saiyans is a fun matter. Might do that soon. Don't think I've done it here (fully) just yet.

>rival boost
It is a canon suggestion of Old Kai. If it is absolutely the case or not is another story. He says the earrings produce a superior result (and isn't talking about the permanence *that he would know about, so Super was horseshit for making him look like a fool*), so that's what we go off of. Just his word. Unlike Shin, he wasn't proven a know-nothing constantly blundering (like when he said Gokek would win against Bejita-sama, it was best to let Gohan get succ'd, they shouldn't cause Buu to be freed prematurely, that he couldn't obtain the ki to go help with Kid *except Dende was right next to him*, etc.).

>explain SB as shit
Very well. Fret not. I'll give it props where they exist. Just be prepared to have its image tarnished (should already be fairly clear it ain't shit in canon when you only account for times it is used there *not when it is wanked outside this context sort of like the damage control done for KMHM and even KK though that move SHOULD have merit*).

To start from the start, one thing NOT well known to fans about the move is that it isn't free. The first time it is used (ignoring King Kai's babby world *celestial bodies of DB really strutting their stuff again before Mario Galaxy could make a game about it*) is only on the level of Earth on an involuntary level (minimal power gathered). This power can vary with the amount of 'life' in the world (and the richness of that life). I don't get the impression higher level (soul-having) beings give anything up in this instance (just the world). Wildlife, plantlife, etc. do, but not to any notable degree (Moro makes as if taking the real sample is an absurd degree of difference that should make it capable of trashing Kid with ease *but that's going outside canon*).

About the cost. It isn't known how much it is, but it has some amount (as Gokek was in pain, but not super drained before gathering SB *after it, he only had enough for a feeble blast to Vegeta's eye*). That was the cost for the Gokek of this time (~8K) using a minor SB case. This process took 10 seconds (not 3 minutes *the anime likes dramatically dragging things out to this degree, at least*). Still too long with Vegeta asspulling ki sensing to stuff it (costing roughly half the power to be lost). Recall how King Kai wanted Gokek to land SB on the post-Power Ball, pre-Oozaru Vegeta? After he lost his tail, he was so weak Gohan could somewhat face off with him (while he couldn't really manage even that much against Nappa who is ~8K *thus tying up with Gokek when he got his act together only to get folded by KKx2 from behind, but clearly half-assed against the others at best*).

Gohan wasn't even able to break 3K (angry and using ki blast *though AT probably forgot multipliers on moves by that point, so it could just be his anger showing his full strength*). It doesn't take much power gap to dominate a foe in DB oftentimes. Even letting Vegeta be as high as 4K is enough to for the display we got. Frankly, I'm high-balling (where it might seem like low-balling). THIS Vegeta was to be the target of the FULL SB. The halved version hit him, but he survived and kept on fighting (though clearly harmed and further weakened by it). It wasn't going to do anything substantial even if it hit his full (18K) self let alone his Oozaru (even though it was probably more like ~40K rather than 180K thanks to the Power Ball draining him). Frankly, he would have been better off tanking the whole thing earlier.

NOTE: One wonders how long before the 'involuntary' energy gathered can be harnessed again (recovery of the power source).

While it is nice that the move allows a person to gain power beyond their own to punch above their weight potentially, we (before long) start getting to cases where individuals vastly outrank the totality of living beings (other than the combatants squaring off). It still has a cost (that should scale up with the amount of power being pulled in, but doesn't come up again, really). It is ONLY an option for direct hit on 'evil' targets (gets bounced), but upon detonation does not discriminate at all. Limits the value more than it gives utility. Frankly, why it does requires explanation (natural just means good, so 'deal with it' is how it comes off).

When next we see it we're up against Fridge who at 50% is beyond Gokek's KKx20 (with KMHM). SB overwhelms him using the power of a mostly lifeless Namek (along with fighters giving remnants of their voluntary power *well below the target to a laughable degree*), but also an unknown number of neighboring planets (specifically NOT the stars we see *so he held back to avoid blowing up the world*). Can't guarantee it (as AT doesn't give a shit about the astronomy), but I'd imagine stars should count for a lot more than a planet. Should, but it is never put to the test in canon. So, yeah. We go from an involuntary type taking 10s and possibly just shy of 8K to gather for a strike that seemed under 8K itself (not even 1:1) to a few worlds somehow being consequential (Pickle shouldn't even have a million to offer in his state, Chestnut is at 'over 10K' and Gohan is an unknown amount below Pickle *when not angry*). None of this should come even close, but it just works. The result? Frieza is embarrassed and cosmetically damaged. That's something, at least (definitely better than before *had to be better than 1:1 for sure*).

The last instance? We get Namek and Earth (two healthy worlds *so not much*) giving FULL voluntary (not really sure how most of these add up to anything given how weak they all are even on Namek *and there are SO few people on even Earth, but whatever*). Shaping up for a repeat except this time GOHAN is there. Mystic Gohan. Who is beyond Supes who Gokek couldn't even hope to exchange blows with (said Carrot being about even with the target *Kid*). The only thing worth considering here is Gohan's power being given to the thing (no mention of him losing Mystic in death though people sure like to write as if it were so *to get him out of the way as the strongest*). Even with THAT on a PURE evil target, Kid is able to resist the damn thing. The excuse given? Gokek is tuckered out. What a crock of shit. It just isn't a good look for the technique even when you put aside the need to rely on others, tons of charge-up (not a mere meme as with FF or true SBC), moral alignment dependency, etc. Luckily, once more, his totally drained self didn't have to pay what should be an ultra high ki cost to pull all this shit together (Vegeta makes this shit look super fucking easy with FSF *Super with the accidental slights to CANONku amuses me terribly*).

NOTE: In the movies, it has some utility for empowering the user (possibly healing). Alternative uses don't come up in canon. It is always the ball for a 'bomb'. No superior modifier beam or whatever gets employed so the energy gathered isn't funneled through this garbage. Now, with FSF, Vegeta (in theory) should be able to at least punch a SB to nothing with technique alone (sending the ki back to the original source, at least). Yet another nail in its casket where the kids should be concerned (as they accept the new stuff readily *as always*).

>should read Z again
Strongly advised. I've read it many times (over and over) to deepen my understanding as I discuss various matters. Easy to misremember things that didn't happen thanks to seeing the anime (no matter the version).

>among the very few
Afraid not. I loathe the false t0 glitch (Ascension becoming Plume with no hitbox and cannot be canceled), targeting issues for t0, hyper armor (trumping t0), chaos to manage for 10+ minutes, protection aspect (without the ability to improve your lot reasonably with intended family moving), etc. Grouping the bunch for spawn pool depletion is especially bad at the start with the 'bonus' clones, the different clone types in a given pool spawning at different locations makes it hard to know where to look (or who to try and kill first if you did have control to start with), regaining control upon a multi-clone kill (as will eventually happen *more than once*) is a nightmare, etc. I am one of the two to have bested VH PAIN+ ToA W1 in GoW:A (as most disliked the title too much to continue serious work and the fight is motherfucker *taking over 45 minutes the way I did it*). The other did it by accident with an RNG-based case of pushing for a stun (got it after many, many attempts for the strat more meant for easy PAIN victory *slightly better than RO method though much slower*). It is the one thing left on my plate, really.

>referring to you
Ah, then I need not fret over getting back to that thread just yet as I'd already encountered you here.

>about 30m of GoW1 or GoWII
Do you recall fighting on a boat at sea? If so, the former. If not, the latter.

>SKW
Super Kami Water. Korin had some bullshit for Gokek earlier, but this is the real deal. A 'poison' that managing to overcome gave him his 'potential' manifested as Oozaru (retroactively meaning it was a passive x10 boost). Also, ki sensing (he didn't learn it on his own *thus he couldn't even use IT without this*). People point to Gohan for handouts, but forget about the original MC. Those that point any fingers at Geets for playing a wizard for slight boost (making up for not having Other World access) can eat shit for life as they get REMINDED of SKW. Same to those whinging about Oozaru (and the only canon known master of the form *though Vegeta does mention others knew Power Ball*).

NOTE: Worth expanding on just a bit, I'll say that Gokek is an Oozarulet. Like the real thing, but inferior. Smaller and doesn't even fire a mouth blast. His mutt was YOUNGER, but his was the real thing. Both were berserk, but Gohan was (with some help from Cueball) able to focus on his foe (even if without full control of himself). Both pass out when reverted. Vegeta? Full control and not KO'd when taken out of the state (even by loss of tail). At least Gokek managed to eventually train his tail weakness away (unlike Raditz)? Still pretty funny seeing him lose to Yamcha and Puar (would have lost again if Roshi hadn't stepped in to get his membership in the club *undefeated against Jobalot*).

>CSATT
The technique Tien used (confused for a simple Kiai) is unnamed. I just refer to it as Crane-School Anti-Turtle Tech. His master's style applied as a technique to counter the rival master's 50 year legacy (how long he spent making the thing *imagine being 300yo and this is the best you can do after having such a great master as the guy who made ECW and Tri-Beam while the other dude makes Dodonpa, Solar Flare, Flight, esper shit, etc.*).

>ToA
This is in reference to an infamous bout in GoW's history. Each title likes to have a (usually) pen-ultimate battle (just prior to final boss) with an enemy gauntlet (doesn't have to be a bunch of different foes necessarily). This one has a changing arena, a variety of foes and three 'waves' (with different spawns *parts* to each). A lack of checkpoint is typical for these tests of endurance against non-boss enemies. They don't even necessarily have to give you a means to replenish your resources in the fight. With the last entry to be made (in the proper formula *before total bastardization*), one was particularly poorly balanced (something I can get into more detail about when the time comes). Wave 1 had two Major Grunts that were more akin to mini-bosses (and laid it on thick). With other changes to the game's system and how it interplays with PAIN+ rules, it... just doesn't work out too well. You're starved for options to the point you're basically left with being bombarded and chased about as you light attack chip one foe type to death to get at the other freely, which proves quite the feat. "ToA" refers to this fight (Trial of Archimedes). "W1" being Wave 1 (as you may have surmised). PAIN+ is just a more extreme version of PAIN, which doesn't stand for anything (not an acronym). Just what it is.

>researching a word
You probably won't have much luck with a lot of what I say (and Google hasn't really been especially useful for searching for these things *feels like a decade since I could expect worthwhile results from a lot of my queries*).

>ever surpass AT's cat's self-insert
He's a moving goal post as has been evident for some time now.

>claimed to be trying
And AT made-up (as usual) an on-the-spot rating of Gokek versus Billy (and Whis) to the tune of SSG being a 7, Billiard at 10 and Whiskers at 15. Clearly this isn't as it seems (and is more like the Richter scale *orders of magnitude at work*). The old man just bullshits and expects you to not overthink things (as he sure doesn't).

>misspelling
It is just a nickname. The original plan was some corrupting villain (aping Baby) acting as a Virus (Beerus) before AT's tax evasion forced him to involve himself (needed the dosh). Changed the understanding of the name to a food pun (Beer). All other GoDs (later) would be named accordingly. Likewise, his attendant gets a name playing to that same tune (Whiskey). Made the foe a non-villain (and his cat) who is mostly a dork that just wants to eat (and not do his fucking job). Opted to act like he was there all along (inserting him with stuff like meeting the Saiyan King, Schlurpza being warned by daddy dearest not to piss in the wind, why North Kai has a plantoid for a home, changing how Old Kai got put in the Z sword, etc.). Just a lot of really dumb shit (as with god ki itself *if it were 'destruction', at least that would be something new where we've had plenty of the divine with nothing of the sort to speak of*).

>Wow
He's impressive with the degree he forgets things as he makes them up. His interviews are pretty awful. Took him no time at all to forget SS3 had visible pupils. The form is probably too much work for him, so he jobbed it out quick. The original motivation for SS was just to draw KK, but without needing to spend as much ink. I'd wager Mystic was a rebelling against all the forms as much as it was a manifestation of laziness. Launch...Tien sure got screwed over. His only solace is the wank Tri-Beam got against Semi. Even for a move of its caliber, to pull that stunt was absolutely insane. It is not a binding PL ignoring technique, so there is nothing pretty to point to for explaining it away. This isn't ECW, CSATT, Solar Flare, etc.

>know or acknowledge

The former. Don't know about anything else besides Multiverse and AF.

>guides

Yes, they're most likely aware that anything they say on the matter will contradict anything we were shown, no matter what they do. So perhaps they simply don't bother.

>can't stand a chance against someone twice as strong

Agreed. I recall using the SS multipliers (assuming that they were canon), to theorize that their physical capabilities didn't increase linearly. But I don't remember the exact words I used.

>might do that soon

Keep me updated.

>first instance of SB
>below 1:1

>SB

So the best instance of that technique is when used against Frieza (who wasn't killed anyway, but he was still much stronger than anyone in Namek at that point). The first instance being below 1:1 (highly shocking, as I didn't even take into consideration the calcs you used), and the third instance not working (until Goku's energy gets restored) against someone inferior to Gohan (people saying that he lost Mystic upon death is news to me) indeed proves that this technique is not as good as I thought it was. Neo Kikoho is much better, and it shows.

>misremember things

This is most likely the case for a few details.

>didn't learn ki sensing on his own

Man, the more I read about Goku, the worse he gets in my eyes.

>won't have much luck with Google

You'd be correct. I could only find out about a handful of abbreviations (like FSF).

>original plan

Really? Never heard of this.

>not aware of other things
I see.  Not too many worth noting, really.  Fewer still that aren't porn or fanfiction (pure text).  Vegeta Dan was okay for a bit.  Same for the Isekai story about being Yamcha (and trying not to job).

>aware of contradictions
Never stopped them before.  Daiz gets jerked off all the time despite saying dumb shit like Raditz being 1.5K, when he's equal to a Saibaman (1.2K) by word of Nappa and demonstration (killed by an attack with a PL of ~1.3K).

>didn't crease linearly
They ought to, just that SS doesn't actually multiply by some set amount as suggested by outside material (and does less and less as things go on).  I already went over how AT (after the fact) thought of SS as being x10, but even he recognized that can't be right.  It is never written as even that much of a difference.  Even x2 would be pushing it with respect to PL gaps (given how those tend to go).  Goku pretty convincingly slapped Junior's shit and would no doubt do so again with their gap being a fraction of a percent (416 versus 408).

>SKW inferiority
Right.  There are those that will cite Gokek not having access to the x10 gravity Planet Vegeta had.  Not like Raditz had it long (given it got blown the fuck up).  Not sure how a weakling like him could even survive to be sent away (makes no sense), frankly.  Anyway, he gets to Earth and jobs to a ravine (brain damage is too much for mystical beans and wish-granting dragons made by a magical-slug man 'god') to receive the personality and early training (found by a student of Roshi) positioning him well for being received by future teachers (just say you knew so-and-so *nepotism, baby*).  Oh, and being found and dragged along by Bulma (who showed her goods to earn one of the balls they didn't have a way to obtain otherwise *Gokek couldn't beat him*).  Needed her, too.  Lots of things, really.

More than the training (which was mostly weighted training and survival rubbish) and meager techniques (really got held out on until King Kai polished his knob *with a double-edged sword and a spectacular dud*), he was fortunate to have a series of foes able to beat him to near death without actually finishing the job (for repeated zenkai boosts).  Do you think there is much chance Raditz got nearly killed, but then was able to get away to recover (much less ever got saved by two guys who didn't respect his life)?  Unlikely.  Vegeta knew about the process, but had NEVER tried to exploit it as he didn't know what Gokek bumbled into (you CAN self-harm to exploit the fucking thing).  The Prince for sure had never suffered any such beating at all (nor ever trained).  He's just naturally talented and powerful.

So Gokek gets all these near (enough) death experiences that have shown a potency shifting between significant to ungodly (compared to just training).  He uses this to make his way to the point of facing and losing to Tien (a human who trains hard under a decent master *and is STILL weaker than Yajirobe's natural power*) before getting his shit slapped by a child of Ma Senior.  Sluggo's boy caught him tired and/or hungry as the excuses usually go for early DB.  Riveting.  Comes back for his revenge and gets bodied by King Pickle.  Elderly style and it wasn't really close.  He lost handily to someone this weak despite his training and zenkai boosts and he's a teenager.  Sad.  But it gets much worse.  He revisits the second cat he goes 0-1 against to slurp Purple Drank.  No more UKW, it is all about that SKW, baby.

The real shit gives him ki sensing (demonstrated by sensing Flute Lord from afar) and his potential as demonstrated by the Oozaru he had always struggled with (later revealed as x10).  He now has a passive tenfold power increase when he goes up against rejuvenated Green Bean who still had the win (until Tien saved Gokek from getting dust'd *tiring the snail enough that he could be handled before three-eyes got taken hostage*).  We now how this goes down.  Next Popo and Kami train the little retard (both stronger than said foe) so he could face and defeat a superior reincarnation (Junior).  Bests him fairly clean all things said.  What does he have to show for all this (including another near death recovery)?  PL 416 against his Uncle Raditz's 1.2K.  Pathetic.  Just ridiculous to have all these boons and come up SO SHORT (like his tiny Oozaru *that can't even mouth blast things*).

Yeah, I'm thinking he's just very, very lucky to be alive (plot armor) and made it far enough to fucking DIE with his help against Raditz (including his mutt child breaking the ribs of the man said to be faster than light by Big Green in Ocean Dub *horse shit*).  Lucky enough to have his body preserved and be vouched for by Kami to go see King Kai (who then gives him the tools he needs to job to Vegeta, but you know the score).  This cunt has just amazing handouts and manages so little while getting wanked so hard by his fans.  Then there is material beyond canon allowing shit like double dipping on a form he should never have been able to achieve (it would only be worth the level of SS3 without strain in his case if being fair *then use KK to take it further as a base, but GT somehow forgot to top it off with that wank despite it being Toei's baby and they are responsible for the filler with SS KK to begin with before Super had them do it for SSB*).  Super slaps his ass with the handholding ritual, too.  This before UI being fine-tuned to suit his 'void' of a brain and years of masters telling him the same fucking shit that is supposed to be some amazing revelation from Whis, Merus, etc.

NOTE: With SKW suddenly dropped, how well do you suppose he does upon returning to life against Bejita-sama? Trick question, he would die against Nappa while using KK. Dropping him down to fucking 800PL means he would need KKx10 to measure up to him. What's he going to do? SB against that level of foe? Better land the full version. It might injure him enough that a KK KMHM could stand a chance... Skipping ahead, if the bottom drops out against Majin Vegeta (because that bit of wizardry catches him shit), what's SS3 going to do? It was already improbable that Jobalot at the wheel could have won with it even before cutting him down to size this way.

>not as good as thought
It has a time and place, but without losing the cost and means to gather (from a sufficient source for a valid target you can hit) in peace...It just needs a lot of help, frankly.

>the worse he gets
As you will see for many as you read up.  Some have delusions about Krillin's close relationship with Goku (just former fellows under Roshi who barely were around each other after that), Yamcha not always being a joke, Roshi being a great master, etc.

>like FSF
Amusing.

>never heard of this
Shouldn't be hard to look into.

>doesn't multiply by a set amount

Right, I was just taking the official multiplier for granted, but nothing the Saiyans did made me believe that their strength, speed, etc. increased 50 times, hence why I said that. But now that I know it isn't canon, what you say is a more reasonable way to look at it.

>Zenkai

I don't quite remember, but was this relevant for the entirety of Z, or just until Cell saga?

>SKW dropped

Oh, so this boost is permanent? Now I get why you said that thing about SS4 Goku getting the same boost twice.

By the way, Cell stated that he could use KK and SB, right? If so, have you noticed that pretty much no one addresses this plot hole?

>nothing they did
The only time it seemed remotely like it could be the case is the very first. Why? Frieza was at 50% (allowing that to stand), Gokek used KKx20 KMHM and...one-handed block with minimal issue. At the very least, you would expect more than double to be needed for SS to do what it did (and that's without going into how KMHM should have taken it up by x2.2* additonally, so x50 itself would NOT have been enough there). After that? There is never a fight where it came off like the enemy was that much stronger, but holding back so as to not one-shot before a transformation decreased the gap to a more reasonable one. It just isn't written that way.

>relevant for
It was made to exist as of Namek (not Saiyan Saga) and ended there. It only got a guest appearance at the end of Cell Saga (nothing in Android). Obviously any claim of it boosting Gokek prior to the first explanation of it (when the author made it up) is applying it retroactively (fair game, frankly). The things that qualify for zenkai in canon already aren't quite as 'near death' as you would think had to be the case:

-(Goku) Crippled with every bone in his body broken *unknown return*
-(Goku *x4 or so*) Self-harm in gravity training with only shown instance being him tuckered out and somewhat damaged *unknown return, but apparently these have all been proportionally small to only add up to him now being possibly base 90K*
-(Goku) Severe-body beating by Vegeta where he is unable to get-up though nothing is reported broken *most massive return*
-(Vegeta) Injuries from Earth where he lost an appendage, bottomed out on ki and was too hurt for more than crawling *meager return*
-(Vegeta) Zarbon beats him up and tosses him into water apparently closer to death than last time *decent return*
-(Vegeta) Uses up what he has on Recoome and takes some knocks leaving him barely able to stand *huge return*
-(Vegeta) Lowered his PL and threatened Chestnut to make him blow a hole in through his torso for a clear cut near death experience *apparently worth a ton less than the previous beating*

NOTE: Gohan was shafted out of any zenkai from the Saiyan Saga as his PL going ahead did not increase. Gets a handout to make-up for that (taking him from ~1.5K to 'over 10K'). After Recoome broke his neck? Apparently nothing substantial (not exceeding doubling) as the poor showing from Ginyu in Gokek's body demonstrates. However, without a reason to get stronger (putting anger aside), the boy is able to do a little against 'over 1M' (Second Form Frieza the self-reporter). Gets his shit-slapped and recovers to do the same to third form, but that is again not a huge proportional increase.

As you can see, the returns vary a bit and the things that qualify can be somewhat less extreme than 'near death' (and even get better results than those that are the real deal). Self-harm works just fine. Does death and resurrection (Gokek against Raditz)? No way to know for sure, but doubtful. Looking back through DB (up to 'Z')...you will find A LOT of cases of Gokek taking enough qualifying punishment before recovering. Can you say authoritatively they were all zenkai? No. You can argue that they would have been, however. Just that the concept wasn't made-up yet. The list would be quite long (and with what one typically gets out of zenkai, that paints a sad picture for the state of the MC's power when he finally comes up against Raditz just to be half his level *where big bro would certainly not be so lucky as to have all these experiences without just being left to die*).

>permanent
There was no point where its effects were noted as ever wearing off (losing the boost or ki sensing).

>understand the 'double dip' talk now
Yes, as it would also apply were Ikaru not just some mutant thing (and a form he could go for *not out of the question for a fusion though it wouldn't be a good idea given Gokek isn't any better with Oozaru, but maybe SKW will just let the fusion have the power at base*).

>stated he could KK
I don't believe he ever mentions it in canon. AT buried the multiplier stuff.

>and SB
Yes, he claimed he 'probably could'. It was never demonstrated (or tested).

>no one addresses it
Lots of fans do. B3 even has him do it (to comedic effect). After going over SB with you, I'm sure you can see how the SB would be super underwhelming for him even if he had a valid target for it. A bunch of involuntary energy of just Earth at his PL? Not exactly going to measure up to his weakest blast using his own power, is it? Fans also note how he genetically has enough Saiyan in him that he should be able to go SS (as even a hybrid was shown to have that potential *and the human hybrid even gets ridiculously superior returns over the pure bloods, but he cannot really say the same thanks to Gero not slapping a human into his biology through TienCHADhan like I keep bringing up*). Cell is worth going over in a bit more detail, I'd say.

>taken it up by x2.2

Oh, right. I missed that.

>AT buried the multiplier stuff

Must've been an anime thing, then (?).

>SB

Should've specified, I meant why no one said anything about Cell using KK for the final beam struggle. But if that was a filler thing, nevermind.

>worth going over

Sounds good. Going into non-canon territory for a bit, do you think he would've been a better choice for Super instead of Frieza?

>missed that
So did Toriyama.

>must be an anime thing
Or even a dub matter.  Lots of nonsense comes of these adaptations, you'll find.  One of the most flagrant being "the brilliant scientist" that Vegeta knew (Gokek's father).  It wasn't in the original Funi, version (regarding KK).  This is canon:



>about Cell using
As in 'should have' or 'did'?  The latter didn't happen even in filler (overtly) in any known version I'm aware of.  The former is just going off the skills he SHOULD have.

>better choice
Absolutely.  Is there any real question here?  Let us get on with it, then.  First, the canon component parts and what they offer from the samples he had.  Next we'll go over what he ought to have done with them.  Then what he should have been.  Finally, Super...

His components are:

Goku - Solar Flare, KMHM, SB (talked about), KK (hushed), SKW (magic, so maybe only good for the power sample of the time *else he should have the full extent of his Oozaru, which SHOULD be a thing for him even as a mutt*), flight, telepathy, mind-reading touch (updated sample), kiai, ki transfer (update), FFFFFFFFF and IT (from an updated sample, which would include FPSS and even the latest KMHM variations as with the 'torpedo' *yes, it was actually KMHM in canon*).  Zenkai and Oozaru as part of the biology.  Afterimage is pushing it (RPS ain't shit and 'moving quick' to leave illusions is really whatever *as covers the likes of Choppa's garbage move*).  Of the techniques only used on this list, Cell only uses Solar Flare (to get away pre-Perfection) and KMHM until getting the last zenkai of the series and IT (only to get back to the battlefield).

Vegeta - Ki augmented strikes, fireball (kids apparently are calling it "Shine Shot" now), Power Ball, Oozaru mastery, GG, AoE blast, barrage, Dirty Fireworks (though people only think of it on Namek, it is the same thing he did to the Saibamen), mouth blast (while Oozaru, anyway), Ki sensing (not from SKW like the vassal and asspulled it just before getting sampled), flight, ki disc (he knew it before Krillin, so he could warn Nappa *even uses it to take out Oozaru Gohan*) and 'Galaxy Breaker' (fancy name given to Vegeta sending his ki from his whole body in a beam).  If not from Pickle, then all he is using that can even come from Vegeta would be ki sensing and flight (basic enough that all have it).  No update to his sample obtained for Namek and beyond.

Piccolo - Barrage, SBC, Clothes Beam (some utility should exist), AoE, Antennae Shock (Cell doesn't have them, so...), Eye Beams, flight, ki sensing, Destruction Wave, Chasing Bullet, Demon Wave, ECW (he at least knew how to counter it, so there is that), Light Grenade (from updated sample), Masenko (never used by him in canon, but supposedly taught Gohan this off-panel), Hellzone Grenade (updated sample), ki barrage, mouth blast, telepathy and kiai.  Regeneration (somehow NOT draining stamina from Cell and NOT failing if the head is taken out *the slug only ever really shows this off for his arms in canon though it should work for other parts and off-screen Buu Saga has him recover from what should be a really fucked up state*), Limb Stretching (only shown in canon for arms, but at most Cell does it for the tail when accepting things into his body), Expansion ('Super Namek'), merger (something that never comes up), super hearing and birthing (Junior never does it in any way, but Cell makes his own bullshit version that doesn't weaken him).  Kids talk like he has Eternal Youth (from his father's wish *inheriting magic, are we*), but that is fanon.  Potentially Cell could use Kami's genetics to let him peer to 'lower realms' (like from Other World) for what little that would be worth (though this was also something that applied to being high up on Earth *down to the ground level, which has more obvious value*).  Of these things just on him, regeneration and birthing (maybe also stretching) are it.  Just biological things.  No techniques from him.

Frieza - Death Beam (barrage, too), Death Bullet (better known for the barrage on Junior), Death Wave (similarly 'Psychic Wave'), Death Ball (didn't do shit), Death Bomb, telepathy, telekinesis, flight, eye beam, kiai, Death Storm (same thing as what Nappa does, really), Death Barrage (odd ki during an otherwise generic attack), Imprisonment Ball (like almost all of the moves this one uses, unproven against near equals), Nova Strike (a proven move in that against someone STRONGER than him he was able to temporarily match the KMHM), Death Saucer (ki disc, but demonstrating he can do multiple and apply TK to direct though not without hand movement), Death Cannon (another Destructive Wave type *a few of these I'm not bothering with*) and Death Psycho Bomb (like Dirty Fireworks).  'Breath' (the fuck is there to take-in *he is known to pant, so it is a thing for him* when in a damn vacuum) in space, extreme survival (functions while in a sorry state *possibly a factor in the nonsense combo with Namekian regen*) and transformation (Cell never does this save through absorbing the cyborgs he was meant to join with).  Fanon suggests he may have minor divination based on his esper abilities and talk regarding a Saiyan growing in power.  Hard to say if it wasn't just paranoia.  Fanon also suggests he can make the bio-suits, but there is nothing canon backing that.  Cell definitely uses the 'survivability', TK, Death Wave and Death Beam.  While he leans on Gokek, he does use some Fridge, too.

Kold - Flight is about all we know from him.  Huge waste to even possess.  Somehow more of a filler choice than Gokek.

What should he have done with what he had?  Certainly NOT rely on Gokek's KMHM.  Of his 'beams' to be used quickly, SBC should be his best bet.  Not so sure if it could be 'struggled' with, so for continuous fire maybe GG instead.  Can't trust Frieza's track record for moves demonstrated to work when not at a hilarious advantage regarding his own cases.  For balls?  Doesn't really matter too much.  Could even be KMHM (torpedo), but use it in a guided fashion.  If left to a single arm, I suppose Death Beam is sensible (versus how long SBC takes that way).  For slicing surprises, Death Wave.  Frieza and Vegeta both have surprise explosion options (better to go with Vegeta if being direct, frankly).

Fire?  Geets brings the heat.  Paralysis?  Not all it could be, but Pickle has it as utility, but would that 'crown' even cover for the lack of antenna?  Mouth and eye attacks are good for surprises (especially in close while otherwise having limbs tied up).  In terms of AoE, the Pickle and Vegetable are both fine (no clear advantage to one or the other).  Esper abilities?  Frieza has 'em.  Make better use of this.  Magical stuff is more limited, but materialization even if limited to a beam landing on a target should allow bullshit like summoning armor for oneself/others or perhaps a Katchin (strongest material there is) straightjack (or Iron Maiden) to capture/entomb someone?  Sounds promising to me.

Gokek's updated sample was mostly desirable for IT (underutilized).  The original was only really good for Solar Flare, but we have a significantly better source for that.  Not convinced SB (as is) has any value whatsoever to Cell.  KK, however, should have been essential.  The updated sample having FPSS as a concept means he should have been able to at least use SS (mutt genes) without being overly strained (made-up to be a thing by this point).  Ranged slicing?  Ki disc from Frieza is probably optimal.  Barrage?  Go with Vegeta or Piccolo again (usually the best calls).

Actually making use of Oozaru might have been something (and Power Ball would be practically free) if he wasn't enjoy the perks passively already.  Shame the infinite stamina of the cyborgs didn't cover his ass, but he did get hax regen and survival, so whatever.  Maybe stretch out at foes?  Birth and try to merge to pull bullshit hax?  Guy didn't even try to use his tail anymore after getting his perfect state (could have been firing beams from it *didn't even do this beyond his hands in canon*).  Ki augmented strikes could have been fun, too.  Where is the damn Nova Strike (converted into Galaxy Breaker)?  Just left a lot on the table.

NOTE: Having SBC should have easily allowed him to best Gohan (even without FPSS and/or KK taking him further) in the final struggle.

What should he have had?  Not Gokek.  He only got put into the corner he did for having that useless stock (for KK being banned).  IT is all he had, but it shouldn't have become necessary.  That he couldn't copy it was telling, too (saw it more than once, but still wasn't able to do it despite Gokek genes *supposed genius about mimicry, so not sure other such types would make the difference there*).  No, Vegeta already offers the same things, but better.  We don't need more Saiyan DNA.  Piccolo and Frieza have obvious merits.  Kold is filler.  Pretending he can only have five slots, this leaves two now.  Shall we partake in a mutt just to have the DNA (since we're going to act like it has to be demi-Saiyan by birth)?  Not much point before SS2 unlock, so that is off the table, sadly.  If being less restrictive, we just need another human to get the advantage.

I will, obviously, nominate Tien.  Even without that boon, he provides us some superior tech.  Dodonpa gives us the best one-handed beam option (in terms of efficiency).  Tri-Beam is the ultimate (needs no explanation).  The extra eye has some minor utility value (aside from another eye beam source).  Multi-arm would also allow utility.  Multi-form merely taken as is in canon would probably not help without ultra hax (pretending combining back together is now a merger to just multiply *too goofy to humor*).  Though maybe in tandem with ECW (possibly the case Pickle already knows it through his ability to reverse, but this guarantees we have the ability as a final resort).  CSATT would be the trump card against at least KHMH (if not all similar beams), which might have come in handy while he was getting wrecked by it (multiple times) of all things.  Having Tien means replacing the lost Solar Flare, too.  Won't have mind-reading (updated Gokek), but it wasn't like he had a reason to do that.  More repeats like flight, kiai and telepathy aside, there is also the useless Volley Ball Fist.  Perhaps had he not gotten pushed aside, he could have made the 'Galactic Donut' (for a volleyball of a foe to knock around) rather than Gotenks.  What a pity (doesn't even get to do a team up in FighterZ with Piccolo and the rat).

But if one needs a final slot, why not gain more utility?  Roshi has pressure points (though only used on a much weaker foe).  Hypnosis is a cute trick, but he needed the enemy to just stare at it.  Lullaby is in the same boat, but they have to listen.  Thunder Shock Surprise punched way above its weight by the nearly equal Gokek being contained despite Oozaru (x10) though not incredibly damaging all at once.  ECW is already covered.  KHMH would be regained for what little that even matters.  His lack of flight is covered.  Has the all too common ki sensing.  I'll not humor RPS, Afterimage, Drunken Fist, etc.  While already having Tien, it is sort of a weak pick, but he might also come with advanced lifespan (like his sister) if not also biological immortality (magically gained).  The gimmicks could help if not TSS for keeping someone stronger than you in place (without resorting to Chiaotzu genetics *who couldn't even manage half-assing Nappa*).  No other cases among the samples available in the time span in question seem like as good a final choice.  Trunks really isn't offering anything other than biology.  Same for Gohan.  Yamcha's guided attack doesn't seem any better than what Piccolo offers and WFF is dumb shit.  Krillin offers a bunch of crap already available and one half-decent move (Scatterbullet is nonsense punching above its weight though slow in exchange).  Devil Man is not around, so he can't just lift Devilmite Beam (or it would be the most obvious fucking selection for one move).

NOTE: Obviously Cell looks like a putz not absorbing everyone he could to obtain their abilities (something Buu was a bit smarter about *and Kid copied the superior teleport while exploiting his hax stamina*).  Clearly the cyborgs taken whole and humans slurped up didn't allow for the hybrid advantage.  Sucks for him.

As for Super, they had a day for Cell to get caught up if using him.  Pretending he didn't get purified in Super (instead being in Hell), we could send him to train for a year in RoSaT.  Frieza needed little time to improve himself.  Speaking of which, take Cell to slurp up the captured Frieza in Hell.  Get a head start.  Maybe re-absorb the cyborgs (updated power)?  Needless, frankly.  Need 10 contestants as is (at the start).  If convincing (or just absorbing *getting there without sensing him would be the problem here, not lack of a teleport*), then spitting out a Junior to do the ritual) Old Kai to help, he can go Mystic to bypass the training (again, RoSaT to make it work in a day).  Without Mystic, 'Golden' and a year of training would go a long way even before a bit of god ki training (would go faster with an updated 'taste' of Gokek *senzu can heal the damage*).  This being something useful even with Mystic (as it is unnatural, it is another way to 'go beyond').  The ability to birth a bunch of fighters (cost free) at even 'around half' his level would be pretty great to exploit.  His ability to survive extreme damage would be useful for playing the likes of Hit (if ever desperate enough to go for a 'kill shot' *mutual DQ*).  Same for blowing himself up on someone just to come back (stronger, possibly).  Having him adds another 'android barrier' user (if he could learn to pull the stunts of 17 in the anime, that would be swell).  Really, just giving blood bags to the guy to take in as bio-extract might be enough to donate towards further evolution.

NOTE: However, the obvious truth is that BUU is the top choice (of all).  He got screwed for being too hax (and thus removed for raffs).

>KK not being mentioned in canon

I see. I was about 55% sure Cell mentioned KK, along with Kamehameha and SB, but it seems I stand corrected.

>should have or did

The former.

>torpedo

Hmm? Don't know what you mean by this.

>Devilmite Beam

Oh, I remember seeing this technique in one of the 'what-if' scenarios that Tenkaichi 3 had. He used it to take down Cold and Frieza, and some other soldiers. I thought that was shown for comedic purposes, but is it actually that OP against 'evil' characters?

>pretty sure
Yeah, not in canon. Not even in the Funi Dub. Is it possible one of the MANY dubs do? Sure. I, however, am not aware of such a thing. Should he have it? Absolutely. Just that AT removed it (thus Gokek getting screwed *which he deserves after the bullshit of inventing strain on SS suddenly as a strawman for him to knock down and look smart just to NOT stack KK on FPSS*).

NOTE: Toei did SS KK (and later SSB KK), but I'm still amazed GT passed on it. With how the tail helped SS3, really he should have been able to somewhat use KK in that form, too.

>what I mean
It is the fan name for when he made two balls of ki ahead of himself underwater, threw one up at Frieza, then the other (coming up himself at the same time) as another distraction before landing a dropkick. The use of the attack was like a torpedo (except it left the water unlike torpedoes at all). He DOES call it KMHM, so that is what it is. Likewise, the barrage of ki blasts he landed on himself during gravity training were, in fact, KMHM. He's had a lot of variations on the move (from the feet, used to get around or land a strike, bending, etc.).

>that OP
It is OP against anyone that isn't 'pure' (meant to be good, mind you). Mostly good, included. None of the cast except Gokek can survive it. He's a pure retard, so he is given a pass when struck. The evil inside swells until all of their being is destroyed. I wonder if it wouldn't get every portion of Cell or even Buu (should they not split a piece of themselves away quickly enough). Given how people defended against Buu's magic ki, I imagine a barrier might protect you.

>SS KK

I forgot about that. Now that you mention it, I remember asking myself why didn't Goku use it again (this was before reading the manga).

>Kamehameha from feet

Oh, I thought DBM invented this.

I remember that movie where Goku absorbed the spirit bomb and did a scary face.

Did he ever do that again?

Not in canon, IIRC. Outside that, I guess the first time he had access to UI Omen in the anime counts (not sure about the manga).

Wright: >why he didn't use it again
AT's will. Toei disagreed (until they themselves forgot in GT *recalling it in Super*). Fanon blames the strain made-up during Cell Saga (for SS), but doesn't have anything to offer when FPSS was come up with (making it laughable that you would ever use SS2 or even SS3, when you could just have a 'strainless' SS base to stack the modifier of KK on *x8 of the latter cannot compete with casual x10 and full effort x20*).

>thought DBM invented this
A lot of wacky shit happens in DB (not having flight forced more creativity in this regard *even dumb shit like spinning his tail like a helicopter to fly actually happens*). As you get through it, you will come to understand my words all too well (as with the depiction of celestial bodies).

>counts
He didn't absorb it there. It just took him to his limits (surviving it) as I recall. Just another case of SB failing spectacularly (yet coming out smelling of roses). Gokek managed to get hit DIRECTLY and was hurt by the damn thing (despite being an anti-evil move that should bounce off 'good' people *Rice was at sub-2K PL when he bounced back a ~4K version of it without real effort*).

Birdman: >ever do that again
No. He never used SB in a fashion other than a bomb in canon or even in tertiary continuity (movies). Secondary material even avoids it. The only other instance of such a thing is from games (where he absorbs it before using another movie-only attack *turning the 'Oozaru Fist' into Toei Fist before it finalized into "Dragon Fist"*). With Super's manga, Toyo still hasn't done that, however, Vegeta did his own version of SB, tossed the energy to Gokek and the divine ki of Uub manifest as a ki giant aura around him, which was remarkably retarded (invoked Korra).

I haven't bothered with Super. Is it still all about random power ups and winning for no real reason?

I really loved early DBZ where they fought Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta. Actual strategy involved. Like they could really hurt more powerful bad guys if they got the chance.

>Cell SB
Only in the games.

Even if he really could do it SB only works when the opponent has no idea what you're doing and your buddies are distracting. They'd never let Cell do it.

>haven't bothered
Nor should you.

>is it still DB
Yes, but not canon.

>strategy
Don't expect too much of them. The instant they get any ideas about technique and such factoring, it is STAMPED out with authority (the very idea jobs before the might of...MIGHT). I've already detailed instances of past canon options just being dropped like a bad habit (as they create problems for future writing intentions *Tien should ECW this foe, he should CSATT this beam back, Tien can just Tri-Beam the cyborgs to death, multi-form should be expanded on, etc.*).

>spinning his tail

I've seen that happen in Tenkaichi 3. I thought that was done for comedic purposes, not because there was actually a precedence for that in canon.

>bounce off good people

You think the same thing would've happened when Goku used it in the fight against Kid, had he not gotten his energy back?

>that it was just for raffs
It was. Canon often is (just more so early on). Once you start reading you will understand this all too well (including AT putting himself into the fucking series to call himself out for fucking around too much).

>same thing
You mean in the event Kid stupidly threw the thing at Gokek? It should, but I imagine AT had already forgotten this detail. I have no reason to think Kid was just going to toss it away, detonate the thing or realize he can fucking warp and just get in the damn clear. Having it hit Gassedku only to bounce off while Kid warps out of the way (blowing up the planet) would have been funny. Funnier still if they forgot this was in Other World, so it isn't like they would be left in a vacuum without air (which is sort of how the writing with King Kai's planet went as there is no reason FPSS Gokek should job to Semi's self-destruct directly *even if he opts out of just porting into the clear*).

>in the event

Once again, I've mixed up what happened in the manga and the anime. I really need to re-read the manga again. But yeah, Kid should have teleported out of the way, and in that case... I dunno, have Dende restore Shin's energy, so he can teleport Gohan to the Kai's planet?

>mixed up canon and non-canon
It tends to happen when you've not really seen the former much (if at all). Like most, I started with the latter (mostly), so it took time to work things out (and many, many passes at the story).

>should have warped
As Cell should have.

>Dende heals Shin to go get
Gotenks would also suffice, but Gohan is the safer bet.

NOTE: New Saga has started. 7-3 is back as the Rildo to Granolla's Dr. Whatever. Seems we're on course for a 'Bebi' (FighterZ concurs). A Nu-Babby, if you will.

I read some news about it.

So, how was the Moro saga? Each time I wanted to start reading, I kept losing interest (partly because I haven't read the manga, mostly because it's... well, Super).

>how was
Better than prior sagas of Super. Still not actually good. It made an attempt, but slowly feel into comfortable territory (only briefly upsetting the norm). Leans way too hard on making the MC(s) job repeatedly before they are allowed a win (with help *at best*).

Seems UI isn't quite 'mastered'. The 'true state' is had, but not nearly the highest 'grade' of output. Talk is that the 'technique' (read: transformation) buffs the user's base until matching their level of refinement with it. Billy ain't about this 'angel' business, but wants to both be petty and lazy. Unwilling to teach Geets, he instead recommends he observe some god tech able to compete with this shit (learn by example). This after getting pissed about Gokek constantly doing stupid shit that causes the cat trouble. Merry is indeed returned to life, but has none of his angel powers (though I don't get the impression this denies him his base power and capability of using UI). New villain is a fusion of Vegeta and Bebi going by Granolla (with partner Oatmeal). Has a grudge against Saiyans (but is really after Fridge) for annihilating Not-Tuffles. Steals the shitty borg from the last arc (from some YYH evil doctor rip-off) as a bounty (for some Bojack nerds) before being informed the lizard is alive again. Oracle Fish predicts yet another 'strongest fighter' is about to appear.

>highest grade

Is this supposed to be the max power that characters can tap into? Any word or theory on how Uub will be in any way relevant?

Also, I was told that you didn't know what was my username in GFAQs. I thought I told you when you asked me about it in this topic, but I somehow missed that.

>supposed to be
Nope. UI is already noted as not being the be-all, end-all. Imagine that. Also, even with MUI, it isn't actually 'mastered' (so much as 'stable and on-demand').

>how Uub will be relevant
His 'divine ki' is treated like being superior to 'god ki'. Also, he is vastly stronger than UI Gokek is right now given the sheer power FSF SB (by Vegeta) gathered to give Jobalot his spirit Gundam (to put the goat down).

>told me
You only told me that it wasn't the same as here. Not what it was.

>divine ki

I suppose that he isn't the only one who has this, right? Not sure if they explicitly mentioned that Beerus has god ki. If so, does this mean that he'll finally stop being a moving goalpost?

>vastly stronger

So that's how it's going to be.

>what it was

Yes, I thought that I gave you a name, but I didn't. Missed that somehow.

>only one
He got his from Kid Buu who got it from taking in the 'Lord of Lords'.

>stop being a moving goalpost
Don't hold your breath.

>how it is going to be
Yes, but also no. Uub has this power, but isn't drawing on it. That is the sort of impression I get. We'll see.

NOTE: These days I've paused my campaign with /dbs/ (shaped them properly with sustained REMINDERS). I'm focusing on DBG at GFAQs now (where normally I just do an annual topic with occasional drive-by hits). I know some of the anonymous scum are among them. They'll need to bust out alts to play that same game in this setting. Really fucks them up to be confronted directly.

>DBG

I took a peek at it. It's amusing to know that the Kid Buu debate is still relevant in 2021. And Luminaire is still citing Super and EoZ to prove that Goku = Kid > Gohan. Some things just never change.

>Kid
That's mostly pushed by Lemmings who is having a go. He's only to be entertained so that others aren't convinced by his monkeyshines.

>over Gohan
Same deal.

>never change
Like AT's will (2-0).