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Dragon Ball

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1Dragon Ball Empty Dragon Ball on Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:05 pm


This topic covers the franchise as whole. Discuss anything and everything related to the matter. Canon or otherwise. New and old. Debates, theories, questions, comments, concerns, fan content or whatever.

As something to get the ball rolling, allow me to REMIND:

Akira's Toriyama's Will:
Vegeta is undefeated against Goku. 2-0.

2Dragon Ball Empty pulling a Bulma on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:20 am


I've read all the original manga back in analog times, and I'm fairly certain Toriyama couldn't write any narrative to spare his own life. The DBZ Anime adaptation has atrocious filler that kills any stiffy for the fights. And I never played any video game based on it, ever.
Buuut...Toriyama's characters are indeed highly recognizable, even if one never heard his name.

Am I unqualified for further progression?

3Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:03 am


There's a lot of bad DBZ games, but some really good ones too. Budokai Tenkaichi 2 especially nailed the fights I feel, fun game.

4Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:34 pm

Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright
^ I played that one, it's indeed a fun title.

I've got a couple of questions about Z:

-In the earlier parts of it, we see Piccolo destroying a moon without breaking a sweat. But we also see SS-tier ki blasts collide with the Earth, and nothing bad happens to it. One person whom I had an argument with said that the characters used 'controlled' blasts in order to minimize damage done to Earth... while also attempting to harm an SS-tier character with said blast. My question is, does the manga ever address anything about 'Ki control'?

-Does physical strength, speed, etc. increase linearly with SS multipliers? As in, Base Goku from Buu saga cannot lift 40 tons, but when going into SS, he can now do so. But does this means that his strength increased by whatever is the multiplier for SS1? I heard the x50 one might not be official.

-Was Cell's statement about being able to wipe the solar system just a bluff? Because Kid Buu, who's stronger than Cell, could only destroy a single planet. People once again claimed that he was controlling his Ki to explain this discrepancy, because "he didn't need to destroy more than necessary", but come now. Kid Buu went berserk, how could he possibly have been 'controlling' his Ki?

-Here's an infamous question often asked in the DBG board. Super Buu vs Kid Buu. Who wins? I do believe it would be the former, judging by Goku being scared to fight him. But some people there say that when the pods were ripped off from Buu and he went into his muscular form, his Ki was said to have increased, instead of the opposite. When he turns into Kid, there is never a mention of his Ki ever going down, thus Kid > muscular Buu > Super.

-And on a slightly related note, SS3 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan. I personally think the latter wins, but people at DBG say that because Goku said "this still isn't enough to destroy Buu!" (this was said when he was making the Spirit Bomb with the power from Gohan and co.), this apparently implies that Gohan is weaker than Goku, and he stated that he was confident about beating Kid if he used his full power as an SS3. But Gohan's power wasn't "enough".

Last edited by Phoenix Wright on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total

5Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:08 pm


What are everyone's thoughts on Super? I enjoyed reading the original series, and Z, but I remember dropping Super 50 episodes in. The manga any better?

6Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:23 pm


I love the character design and will watch/read/play anything that has it.

>There's a lot of bad DBZ games, but some really good ones too. Budokai Tenkaichi 2 especially nailed the fights I feel, fun game.

Budokai 3, Infinite World, Another Road, Super, and FighterZ.

7Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:29 pm


> Gohan vs Goku
Sad to say, probably Goku, no matter how much I'd like Gohan to take it. Gohan is more powerful, but I still like to believe technique and experience counts for something in the series and Goku simply has much more fighting experience than Gohan. Gohan isn't a bad fighter by any means don't get me wrong, but Goku lives to fight, Gohan fights to live.

> Super
Didn't touch the manga. The anime was terrible until the Goku Black arc which had some cool moments and some abysmall moments. Tournament of Power was an exceptionally slow burn with a pretty great end-game. Seeing Goku get wrecked is always good fun. Gohan jobbed hard though, which made me pissy.

8Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:49 pm


Zeni: >think AT can't write
Don't just think it. Know it.

>atrocious filler
Just tons of the stuff to sandbag (waiting for source to adapt) when not cashing in. Sometimes the dramatics help, one filler tickles the masses, a few original scenes are cherished, etc. While the anime can provide an arguably superior experience, it is drastically inferior for understanding 'what is'. You will know fuck-all about the matter relying on the normal fan experience with the franchise.

>never played any of their games
I've played plenty. A dumb ass turn-based JRPG in Nip (can't understand a fucking thing) and tons of shitty fighters (only 2D outside the one trying to be taken seriously before FighterZ). Didn't really mess with the fanmade ESF directly nor Hyper Dragon Ball (or whatever).

>unqualified for further progression
There is always room, friend. Let's start with things that should be perfectly obvious. The iconic Kamehameha? It is SHIT relative to other techniques. Roshi is a fucking failure as a martial arts teacher (and a person). Crane is better (just as even GG is superior to KMHM).

Roy: >Tenkaichi
Not-ESF was never particularly appealing to me. FighterZ is mainly (for me) held back by going the 3v3 route of MvC. Amusing party stuff, but not my style (1v1). I'd prefer just a bit more depth on the character level. I'd settle for non-T Budokai (B3 in particular though elements of future bastardizations have some place) with character creator (if only just existing parts as a base *no need to waste resources on some lame ass story to use it in, just make the gameplay work*) while retaining character leveling.

>probably Goku
Not a fucking chance.

Not a fucking chance. He's too slow and too weak to do jack fucking shit to even Supes, much less the guy who absolutely DOMINATED his asshole. Gokek can NEVER get to his level, either. SS3 is treated like the pinnacle of transformation forms (even though it suffers from being a crap case with a downside to contend with). There really isn't much more for him as a pureblood inferior to superior CHAD mutts (hybrid master race) much less one with a form that takes into account having such things, removes their weaknesses and tosses in power beyond the actual limits for giggles. Gohan was always set to be stronger than his father (like any hybrid, really), but suffered from not giving a solitary shit about realizing it. Being gifted the power made things simple. If daddy got the same? He wouldn't even measure up to Breakfast's nuts. He would be lucky to get on the level of Supes this way (taken beyond his limits). Difference in fighting ability counts for little oftentimes. Plans, too. Rare are the exceptions. This would not be one.

>like to believe a lie
You deceive yourself. That's all.


Should have been an actual tournament if they couldn't handle a battle royale format. So much waste.

>great end
>irrelevant rehash of multi-time spouted mumbo jumbo martial arts religious crap for another lazy ink-saving form
>lizard gets a nod before fully falling below the surface as a glorified Rita Repulsa (gag villain)
I don't know about all that.

>jobbed hard
The manga gave him a more respectable end by having him beat Kefla to a draw, gets complimented and the two RO one another. Still got punked as "captain" among other slights.

Wright: >we see Junior take out the Moon
Roshi managed it while vastly inferior in power with a crap move.

>one person said [headcanon]
See? There is a lot of this sort of thing (fan's trying to cove for the failings of the material).

>ever address the matter
Hell, no. AT doesn't give a shit and raffs at you for even caring to think about it (much less ask the question to another living being). One of his earliest gags gave away his stance on questioning his gag comic excuse to draw silly martial arts shit with garbage food puns and shit jokes while lewding jailbait and mocking gays, non-Japanese (no Japan on this Earth, but you get the idea), etc. It would become his masterpiece (and his personal Hell with no real hope for escape *not after tax evading like a retard*). Poor old man won't get to fulfill his dream of peeping on his daughter at this rate. I suppose inserting his pet cat as a moving goalpost in some drunken napkin scribbles used to milk fans will have to suffice (until he can find a new way to shit on and spite the fans along with his hated editors *reigning in Japanese Lucas's bullshit*).

>linear increase
No way to know.

>heard x50 is not official
Oh, it is official alright. But that doesn't make it canon. The only canon modifier (that doesn't just proclaim what it is at a given time *the super dropped KK technique*) stated is from Oozaru. AT talks like he thought SS was that, but then realized how that doesn't work (KKx10 was what Gokek was passively doing against Fridge only to job even when going to x20 KMHM against 50%'s one-handed block). Not like he ever wrote it as being x10 either as we've seen far less than x2 mean one-sided beatdowns, no-sells, insta-kills, etc. The thing had a drain invented to excuse future nonsense when it acted like it restored lost stamina and healed Gokek while supposedly filling him with rage (that he reigned in to act like a total buffoon with). FPSS was a lovely strawman event (to follow that with SS3 was just delicious *genius that Tardku is...this is the guy who nearly killed himself with his own attacks, ate a bean and zenkai'd into overtaking Vegeta who was under the impression it couldn't be self-inflicted*).

>just a bluff
Unknowable. However, know this. Their celestial bodies are NOT ours. They are vastly less in quantity and size. Even without getting into official (non-canon) material as with a map of the universe (scale talk can't stop the reality that is the suggestion the ENTIRETY of their universe fits in the gap between our Earth and Mars *so half the size of our star*), scaling is often not encouraging (how things look relative to Earth). Clearly vastly different landmasses (aside from furries, dinosaurs, magic, etc.) and other maps don't exactly lend themselves to thinking the planet large, either. That's before considering how close and TINY the Moon is in canon. There are only four galaxies in this universe (King Kai presiding over the 'North', which is effectively the DB version of our Milky Way). No real signs of Blackholes (AT really isn't much of a Science guy *dude just likes silly mecha, old cars, guns, etc., not the details about how they work else he would do sci-fi properly instead of just using it like off-brand, magic-lite*).

>could only destroy a planet
Just like 'Geets (on first appearance), yes. That benchmark remains the highest canon feat demonstrated (for Vegeta it was talk *no real reason to doubt him*, but it was shown as reality through Frieza).

Those nerds need more REMINDERS. I intend on a yearly one concerning THE SCORE, at least. I've done enough with /dbs/ to infect their culture properly.

>who wins
Ignoring slim chance cases, the obvious answer is Supes. Kid is at the level of SS3 Gokek (who was scurred *as you denote*). No such reaction to Mr. Purity.

>ki went up
Last gasp of a previous form only for it to pass away. Don't be mislead by those having a laugh. There isn't genuine support for the Kid side here.

>Gokek or Rice
Rice, obviously. He mogged Supes who shits on Worst Dad. Same issue as the previous staple "argument".

>still not enough
The technique's fault, obviously. The thing is dogshit. It never occurred to these kids to accept the realities for what they are (SB being grossly inefficient at the best of times is one of them).

>he was confident
That jackass bullshitted through the entirety of that saga talking out of his ass (all the big-game in the world until Big Daddy Supes casts his gaze upon him). That motherfucker couldn't take MAJIN Buu (Mr. Buu is another story *as would be Evil Buu*). His candy ass would tucker out shy of ideal conditions for his form. He lacks the magic to deal with Buu's stamina, so he needs not be more than equal (and his most potent option is low tier, so it seems unlikely he can get the kill against the hax regen). All the coping with talk of future generation protectors and such can't throw the watchful off the trail. He's a hack fraud. That dipshit let Earth get blown up (couldn't even stop Vanishing Ball after Vegeta gave him a chance to react by stopping the first attack), only rescued the most useless people (up to Vegeta to make some use of them *though better could have been done for sure with Dende*) with help from the Supreme Know-Nothing, horsed around some more while STILL not understanding his jobber form, etc.

Firm: >how is Super

>the manga
Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Still not exactly good at the best of times (like GT).

Birdman: >love the character design
Clearly you refer to Officer Black, Popo, Blue, Otokusuki, GT in general, Super in general, etc.

9Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:14 pm


>Clearly you refer to Officer Black, Popo, Blue, Otokusuki, GT in general, Super in general, etc.


10Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:25 am

Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright
>perfectly obvious

What was Goku's power level when using KKx3 + Kamehameha (or was it x4? Correct me if I'm wrong)? Depending on your answer, I would agree with you that it settles Kamehameha's power relative to other techniques.

>Super Buu

I just remembered something that further supports the idea that Super > SS3 Goku (and thus, Gohan > Goku):

-Goku: Wait! Even though his (referring to Super Buu) power went down considerably, we're simply no match for him!

-Vegeta: Well, what else can we do?

-Goku: If only you hadn't destroyed the Pothara...

^ That was said when the pods were ripped off from Super (but not Mr. Buu's).

>fans trying to cover for the failings of the material

One of them even said that Goku not being able to lift 40 tons in the Buu saga was contradictory and therefore not canon, because Goku supposedly did more impressive stuff even prior Saiyan Saga.

>smaller celestial bodies

Interesting. So it's more proof that Z characters didn't come close to lightspeed (people like to bring up SS Gotenks' flying around the Earth feat to prove that he was lightspeed).


Oh, you are familiar with the DBG board? Interesting. Don't feel like going there again myself, those Kid vs. Super/SS3 Goku vs Gohan topics made me lose respect for the community, as I'm pretty sure I saw at least 10 topics about it, with each one of them having 500 posts each, so why bother engaging with people that will never learn from their mistakes? They even rehash the same points used in a previous topic. Ugh.

>don't be mislead

Just trying to see if my understanding of DB is correct (would hate to use misinformed points in a possible debate). Seeing that you answered Super and Gohan to my "who wins" questions (which I already presumed who would be the respective winners) tells me that I'm not completely clueless about it.

...that said, this will probably surprise you. I have not read the original DB manga (which, if I'm not mistaken, explains how I brought up Piccolo in regards to the Moon thing, but not Roshi, unless that happens in the earliest parts of Z).

>can't get the kill against hax regen

If only he knew Neo Tri-Beam (Tien could hold freaking Semi-Perfect Cell in place with that technique, even without power boosts like KK or fusion).

11Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:46 pm


Birdman: >what
A fine list of fine designs (among countless others).

Wright: >what was Gokek's PL
I'll start simple (then get to the details). He was using the same modifier that let him dominate Vegeta just a moment earlier. That's more than enough by itself (as there is no note of him losing power before the duel). Gokek's base is 'over 8K'. Less than 9K, but more than a flat 8K. Somewhere in that range. Low-balling (as I'm a nice guy) to just 8K is what I offer. He used KKx3 (~24K). He had an advantage of 33% (what Vegeta had against Cui when he struck him once for a seeming TKO before turning him to giblets *even less of a gap sees minor effort insta-killing Dodoria*).

KMHM was explained in the bout with Raditz as focusing ki into a spot to project a PL beyond the fighter. It was just x2.2* (when going over the before/after readings). SBC was x3.26, but took so long owed to the improvised nature (one-handed was not meant to be *he does it properly in a moment against Nappa later*). This noted, it was found wanting against GG. A mere tie despite that advantage? Clearly GG is 33% superior (~2.93x modifer *higher without low balling, obviously*).

It wasn't until KKx4 (taking him over 32K *exceeding 77% advantage now*) that the beam was able to overtake Vegeta (projecting a hit akin to ~71K *against Vegeta's 18K body*). The result? Vegeta goes for a ride, hops off and takes emotional damage with a bit of armor worse for wear. Those advanced models (which they wear) really pulled through for him (they sure didn't do shit for Raditz), eh? Jests aside, TANKgeta blew that shit off and took no noted loss in PL until using Power Ball. KMHM? Yeah, it's fucking shit. But the REMINDER doesn't stop there. Not at all. This is just the part concerning GG being superior to this 'equivalent' attack. I'll shit talk Roshi up and down (while praising Crane and Vegeta) in short order should you wish for it.

>Gokek still too scared of Supes
>at that moment
You've not dealt with the goofs enough to know their response, then? I get a lot of silly talk in response to the facts. Some rather humorous copes, too (not always jokes, but plenty funny). For this one, it is just talk of how he only meant while they were tiny (and he totally wanted a piece when he got out). One of the best responses to THE SCORE was attacking the first win as not being Vegeta's, but Oozaru Vegeta's (because he is too different to be the same person *yeah*).

>contradictory and therefore
Tell them to cope, concede and KNEEL like the dogs they are. Canon doesn't work that way.

>did more impressive stuff
"Proofs?" - The good doctor (a scholar of /dbs/)

Physics don't work that way. Even with more power than the universe, this is not attainable without changing the rules in some fashion. Even putting that aside, there is no time scale given (just that it would be in less than thirty minutes). Apparently 7.5 a second is what light can do. Even as a filthy secondary anime-only know-nothing, the lesser continuity of the adaptation depicts nothing of the sort. Barely 1.5 laps. The manga is not precise. Brief conversation, the laps, a nap of indeterminate length and Piccolo turns up noting they have less than a minute left (of 30). The claim is a few dozen times in what would roughly be 28 minutes. "Few dozen times"?

Even allowing for that to mean three (not two) sets of 12 (36 laps), that's not even enough to match what light can do in 30 seconds (225 laps). How much is a few? Surely not 9, but let's allow it. What do you get? 108. Still not cutting it. Was this nap 27 of those minutes? Still doesn't help his case. Light in a minute is 450. Let's not kid ourselves here. And their Earth is SMALLER than ours by some impossible to determine (precisely) amount while we're having light do the real 'outside track' with marks rigged against it at the finish line. Basically, tell them to eat shit for life on my behalf.

Quite so. Though they best remember me by another name, there are some that will no doubt recall my previous reminder session here:

>lost respect over a samefagging jester having a giggle pretending to believe horseshit
There are plenty of good reasons to think low of the community. About as many as there are of Gokek fans, as it happens.

Yes, yes. While acting as if they won the previous encounter, you were convinced of their rightness, feigning incredulity at being proven wrong, etc. A familiar approach by disreputable sorts merely having a go (and bad actors).

>didn't know about Roshi
You'll want to know these things. For instance, the Moon thing is when Gokek using his fucking power pole to extend all the way to the fucking place which is shown as not that far from Earth (and quite small as can be easily gathered by examining the curvature). AT doesn't fret over details enough to even say something wrong like how this is meant to be the same as our universe more or less. You can only work with what is shown. That being the Moon is far closer and way smaller than the real deal. My home is bigger.

>if only he wasn't a baby-bitch shitter too retarded to handle learning CHAD beam
Indeed. If only. A pity the 'zooming in' (telescope shit) stuff is anime-only. Were the case otherwise, the DBM notion of magnifying the attack by firing through multiple 'lens' would be a valid one. Just imagine it. 'Four Witches' technique gives him a second set of arms. It would not be additive, but multiplicative (you know this means runaway). Even if you lie to yourself and pretend the fucking thing is just x3 (less than SBC *again, just allow this injustice for a moment*), the moment you add another pair of hands you're talking x9. Had he upgraded it to 'Asura' (six arms), this would go to x27.

But I'm not done yet. Then you have to consider his multi-form technique. That's a split of himself evenly between copies (and only that many with that restriction *at present*). Sadly, he never levels this to 'six paths' or does anything notable with it. Even just sticking to the canon of 4 (3 copies), you divide the 27 (6.75) before putting it through three more doses of x27 (~x133K). Would it just annihilate the clones down the line? Seems like it would, but boy what an impact it would make for. Again, pretending it was just x3 (and going with the anime depiction of focusing the fire through his hands *the manga depicts nothing of the sort, but we still have the crazy feat you've listed from a guy who has no business being anywhere near First Form Frieza much less Semi*).

NOTE: We can go even more wild with 6 splits, then sprinkle in KK and fuse (if only the dance) with himself in a broken exploitation of the system left unexplored.

12Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:29 am



13Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:06 pm


^GT Pan and GT Bra. What an insight into the man behind the myth, eh?

14Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:27 pm

Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright
>couldn't get the win despite having a significant advantage

Geez, no wonder you say that Kamehameha being shit should be perfectly obvious.

Also, I was under the impression that Goku's PL was 9000+ (given that famous meme), but then I thought I saw a different number when reading the manga. That's why I asked for clarification.


I want to say yes, but I feel I must first read the DB manga first to have better context on what you might say. Might be worth noting that I didn't even watch the anime either.

>not dealt with the goofs

Actually, you just reminded me of it. I now recall someone (pretty sure it's someone who goes by Luminaire) arguing about Goku's "true" meaning behind his words, even though there's no evidence supporting that stance.

>Oozaru Vegeta's win


>tell them to cope

I'll keep that in mind.

>on your behalf

You're that famous around these parts? In any case, noted.

But anyway, how would you feel if there's someone who believes Goku was lightspeed sometime prior to Saiyan Saga? If that was the case, then why is it that Goku took so long to get to the end of Snake Way?


Oh man, those usernames. It's all coming back to me. I recall that the reason I left that place was because someone claimed that Kid Buu was SSG tier when he fought Goku, because Super will eventually lead into EoZ, and EoZ Goku says that Kid was the toughest opponent he faced up to that point. Nevermind the numeous retcons Super made if we were to say it's canon, or the obvious fact that Super came around many years later.


See, I don't know why English speakers use this acronym to refer to that transformation. It's one thing for an Spanish speaker to use it (like myself), as they're referred to as "Saiyajin" here. But where does the "J" come from in the word "Saiyan"?

>broken exploitation

I... hadn't thought of it that way. So much missed potential.

15Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:01 pm


Piccolo is my favorite.

16Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:04 pm


Wright: >no wonder
It gets worse if you can believe it (like there existing a technique allowing ignoring of PL gaps to fully deflect the shit back to sender for free, which seems like a problem to me). While it does have utility demonstrations, it isn't like this is ever suggested as a unique quality of the attack (and GG itself is called an equivalent to begin with).

Would only make it worse. As you say, that is a reference to a meme from a dubbing mistake on an oversold line.

>must read the manga
Why not both? I don't mind leading off. You can get started at your leisure:

>didn't watch the anime either
Quite the qualifications, but you may be surprised to learn this is also commonly the case (yet I'll have Gokeks strongly opposing the absolute canon truths laid before their feet).

>someone going by

If I'm not mistaken, I've seen you on the boards before.

Thus my making of this helpful image to mock what is hopefully a jest (posing as a scrub) in reality:

Dragon Ball 1576857523378

NOTE: Right-to-left should be obvious. Smaller font for things said more quietly. A fairly obvious point is made about hypocrisy without getting into the larger matter of scrub mindset. I've made others (though often leaving it to just the filename delivering the goods *as with pointing out how SKW gave Gokek passive Oozaru, but he was still only half as strong as his low-class brother despite many zenkai and lots of training with 'great masters' up to that point*).

>that famous
Infamous, rather. And some of the regulars will recall my previous handle better (along with the talking points I introduced to their board culture).

>how would I feel
Nostalgic. This talk started with Raditz and a dub line.

>so long
We even know the measurement of the thing (about the approximate time frame he traveled along it *both ways*). It is that canon notation that I used to really shit on the official (non-canon) depiction of the universe globe (including Other World and the often ignored Makai, which does exist in DB's canon *Dabura is not from Hell like Devilman, but this place*, but really doesn't get covered). It reaches from the central point (check-in station) all the way to one edge (no reason to suggest the North is well away from the 'glass'). Even generously expanding it with a straightened out version of the path won't significantly alter the reality here (when doubling for circumference). Tiny.

>SSG tier
That's a problem by itself (for another time), but first to address SSG. We have no way of knowing how much gaining 'god ki' improves someone even officially (within any continuity). There are no official guides for the matter unlike with even GT. Nothing in the material gives a clear picture on the matter (at all). As for Kid being on that level, Gokek's SS3 was one-shot by AT's cat's self-insert (Billy) and couldn't touch Mr. Whiskers (he always jobs to cats *see: Puar and Korin*). Kid as at that same level. A level 'angry' (muh buruma) Vegeta's SS2 exceeded. Putting that trivia aside, we have no way to divine the difference in the before and after as Beer Boy was lying (and AT was bullshitting for raffs) about how hard he tried (we didn't have a before and after rating of SS3 Gokek to SSG to begin with). Likewise, we know jack-shit about SSB (SSBE is also confusing as it ought to just be USS, but is somehow either SS2's official match at x2 or an absurd x20 to keep up with the meme top output of KK for Toei's telling of events *not even a thing for Toyo*). Then there is Omen/Sign (UI) and UI (MUI), which dorks deny as being more than a technique (clearly also a transformation in terms of PL and not just appearance).

NOTE: Leaving the stuff to just Saiyans is absurd (as with their being some hand-holding ritual to just gift it, but it requires goodness *why should it* and SS *again, why*).

>never mind the retcons
Including Gokek saying X new person is now the toughest, strongest, etc, yes. Even without it, he was up against Buutenks (technically present for Buuhan, but didn't so much as attempt an attack there) whom he didn't dare try to fight (unlike Kid). Buu himself (knowing himself) called this the mightiest state he's ever had (and not just concerning his new ID as 'Supes' *considered a different person from the good side or the pure original*). Again, the lad is just having a go.

Allow me to explain the matter. "Saiyajin" (or Saiya-jin"). A word for people of Saiya (jin meaning "people"). What is Saiya? Nothing more than a pun (as usual), but it should be the proper name of a city, nation, empire, planet, etc. Something other than just the people/race (otherwise they should be the Vegeta-jin *to note it, we have never seen Vegeta's father in canon nor is he depicted, but it is known the boy surpassed his father while still a youth while having been named after the planet owed to his high PL at birth*). The honorific in question by grammar rules is NOT to be used at all for an abbreviation (in this case, an initialism). It is incorrect to do so at all (and officially wrong *as another matter*). That is why it is "SS" (when Romanized, it becomes "Saiyan", but we don't say "SSN" *or SSn*. Meme complaints as with sunken ships, nazi talk, etc. have no merit. Just how it is. The origin would be weebs who needed more language lessons. Now we have kids making fallacious arguments in favor of continued use (popularity, legacy, etc.).

>so much missed potential
If allowed to work (even with the time it lasts shortening with each merger *30m down to 7.5m for the 4 way case and perhaps 3.75m for 6 way IF there were a way to make that work clean given the fused selves have one uneven partner as the oddman out to contend with, which could affect the outcome*). One way to get Tien back on his feet. Another shortcut would be Mystic for just gaining all he can be (and beyond) in terms of natural ability. This through magic, which another means being SCIENCE (magic by another name). Have Bulma stop being lazy and copy Gero's work to cybernetically enchance the man at a cellular level as with 17 and 18 (two regular human twins presumably *prior to being kidnapped*) would take him further. Allowing for Super, god ki (no good reason only Saiyans can have it *just that UI seems like a trump for all things*). Obviously, he needs King Kai to have taught him KK for going beyond whatever he gets with the all this, too. Doing all this bullshit in tandem with the multi-arms and multi-form anime-continuity fanon for Tri-Beam would let him punch insanely high above his true base 'weight' (PL) without just resorting to ECW (sealing).

Recall that AT buried Oozaru and KK both in unmarked graves (without a further word on the matter). These are canon sources of modifiers (too troubling for a man who wants to fudge things instead of being corrected for numbers not adding up). Hell, if one is being honest, you shouldn't even expect that by the point of the beam struggle with GG...that AT even factored the talk from the Raditz battle in the slightest (so mocking 50% Frieza one-handing KKx20 KMHM as nonsense given what we are given from official values and canon demonstrations of how power gaps tend to go is...just to be done for laughs). In short, he "forgot" (willfully or otherwise). As usual. Moving away from PL stuff, back to ECW. Tien already survived using it directly on a foe much stronger than him. We never see PL gaps mattering much in this matter (nor does it come off like the cost scales up, really *logically, neither should Power Ball, which is a fun thing to talk about regarding SS4 and how it should be easy to exploit early when allowed for*). Even IF it scaled up, multi-arm should be able to help a little, but multi-form can help a ton. Divide up the workload (as it isn't really a PL matter). One to do the technique, another ready to deal with a possible reversal, the third for placing the object (a catcher for the pitcher) and the last at the ready to slap on the seal. Only those DOING the move would pay the toll, so even if he was at death's door, it should be possible to cheat the system with more hax abuse.

NOTE: With GT logic, it is still stupid to allow Gokek to overtake Gohan. Only Vegeta should be able to obtain the form let alone get much from it (as Gokek already has SKW *no double-dips allowed*). Hate the misnomer even more than with SS3, frankly. The form is super pointless when it should be natural, thus Mystic would be the better choice (god ki being ass-pulled into existence at least exists as some unnatural thing to escape Gohan's domination *so long as he isn't allowed to have any*) even before UI crops up.

Birdman: >Piccolo
I suppose we're talking about Pickle Junior, but allowing for his merged identity (Nail and later Kami), yes?

17Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball on Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:18 pm

Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright
Forgot to address this, but in your previous post, when you said "DBM", you meant Multiverse, as in the fan manga?

>ignores PL gaps

Don't remember anything that did this. Is it shown in DB only, perhaps?


Thanks. I'll start reading it soon, as I have a little bit of free time.

>seen me on DBG

Probably. IIRC by the time I stopped going there, I didn't know about this forum yet, nor I had met Raeng. The only two people I knew by that time were SBK and Hotel, and that was only because they were a bit active in the KH boards, which I used to frequent.

In fact, I didn't know that GMG, MrStarkiller, etc. were the same person until a month ago or so. That said, you know I don't go by "Phoenix Wright" on GameFAQs, yes?


Hilarious. But I don't know whether it would be more hilarious (or not) if whoever said that was being serious.

>Kid being at SS3 Goku's level

To this day, I still wonder is they where really serious when claiming that he could go beyond that level. It's like not being able to see a red stain on a white wall.


Haven't read/watched anything past the ToP, but I heard UI can now be activated at will. Is this true?

>why SSJ must not be used

I see. Thanks for the clarification.


To quote SBK: "If you're not a Saiyan, an insert for AT's cat or the main villain you're going to get shit on."

18Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball Yesterday at 2:33 am


>meant the fan comic
The very same, yes.  It was a fun idea, but it is based in fanon interpretation of secondary continuity.  There is no basis in canon for thinking Tri-Beam has the option to stack with multiple hands or clones, sadly.  It is broken enough, just that the sole not.  Still, there is hope in ways to boost the 'self' in this equation if not the move.

>DB only
Of course.  Hell, AT forgot about by the time Tien had a rematch with Gokek.  Even praised the MC for beating him without needing KMHM (like it wouldn't have worked in his favor).  Roshi is the one who tells us that the technique is why Tien is immune to KMHM (and that PL gaps make no difference to it).  Thus, Gero looks like a huge fucking asshole for using Gokek's useless early genes (especially with AT writing out KK and not allowing SB *not that it is worth shit used as intended*), but at least Cell made it right by getting a sample from later (for IT, which is NOT a bad feather to have in your cap though limited to having a ki signature to warp to *unlike the kai version that Kid copies, but costs a good amount of ki to use and begs the question how he you know where you are going without 'god eyes'*).  He should have taken a taste from Tien for Dodonopa, Tri-Beam, ECW (would have made a fool of SS2 Gohan should Tri-Beam have somehow been found wanting), multi-form, Four Witches and, of course, Crane-School Anti-Turtle Tech (not a fucking kiai like some dorks categorize it as those don't have a property like infinite PL gap ignoring).

Because it tickles me so, have this helpful PSA (with our lovely assistant 'the hobo mutt') and a word from Baba's pitiful little brother:

Too large for direct link:

Dragon Ball Tien_i10

NOTE: Just imagine Cell having this to save himself with against Gohan's kill stroke. Gero's computer was a tit for having him focus on the wrong parts of his DNA. Almost exclusively use Gokek's worst and just used passives from the others. Terrible.

>read soon
At your own leisure.  There is a fair bit and it is quite different from 'Z' in tone, so it may not be entirely to your liking at the start.

>SBK and Hotel
Both of which I've taught (my influence being more keenly felt on the former).

>didn't know
It is why AKheon credits me the way he does at the bottom of this FAQ:

>don't go by Wright there
That right?

>if they were serious
I'd like to think not, but you never can be too sure with the dipshits out there.  Best to ridicule them and their stated beliefs to be on the safe side.  Good ammo to shit on their 'team' with, too.

>if they were serious
I doubt the loudest pusher is, but there are certainly anime-only that actually play themselves by misunderstanding lines like 'most dangerous Buu' (among other things easily used to mislead).

>at will
We've seen that demonstrated with Omen, but I'm still waiting to see him show he can go in and out of UI as reliably.  The finish to the Moro fight suggests that is so (and that Uub dwarfs him casually *hilarious*).

>I see
Yes, it is unpleasant business for many to learn the truth.  That it was just weebs making a blunder and others going along with it unwittingly (in the desire for being in the know and being 'correct' with Japanese, they pretentiously clung to this as with 'correct' translations of the names *more understandable* with some insisting on saying names how the Nippon mispronounces some that are clearly not of the Moon tongue *Trunks becoming Toranksu owed to their inability to say that word as with Big Bang Attack being too much for Vegeta's VA*).


As before, SS3 and SS4 are misnomers.  I see no reason they should be called as such.  It is a pity SS2 is what it is (rather than just a hybrid's full potential).  The degree of worthlessness attached to SS3 is staggering.  Imagine needing Other World's higher planes (suggesting the lower sphere of Makai should make it even worse in my mind *sort of ties in with the oddity of OG Broly's LSS gathering ki while calling himself a 'devil', but that's non-canon territory*) AND a dead body to even be a tenable option.  At least GT gave it a way out with tails helping to stabilize the form.  Mystic STILL makes it useless crap.

Then there is SS4, which is nonsense for a few cosmetic reasons I'll skip for the time being.  GT's guide (which gets to have credence for being about as legit as the anime itself *not from AT*) runs with the modifiers, so SS4 is x10 of SS3 (already x4 of SS2 which is x2 of SS1's x50 *making SS4 x4K*).  Not really sure why it is ONLY that, frankly.  Oozaru is x10, but what about the Golden Ape?  Super Oozaru just x500 (SS plus Oozaru), then to surpass SS3's x400?  Why did Gokek get his ass beat so bad?  The concept of Golden Ape controlled for SS4 is a bit off to me.  Should probably have been mastering Oozaru beyond the level of even Vegeta to condense it as a new base (of x10 in humanoid shape) before stacking other forms on it (for higher multipliers).  Super Oozaru seems like a big mistake to me (though I get why they made the call back to their filler depiction of the original SS).

Again, Mystic makes this natural form redundant.  For Gokek, his having SKW means he already has the x10 modifier. Why does he get the damn thing TWICE?  He should be stuck at SS3's modifier, but without the drain (needing to use KK to make-up the difference and keep pace with Vegeta).  Why is it that they never need the qualifications for the form after first reaching it?  Would removing the tail even stop it (clearly a light source doesn't matter)?  Clearly it didn't matter for Vegeta (at all).  Maybe it is easier with the tail?  No, the only requirement is a certain amount of a (for no good reason) reflected light source.  Vegeta's Power Ball is able to do this early on at a cost to his ki (which would NOT scale, but the potential returns can easily fly beyond the penalty).  Ignoring the concept of making the thing's duration shorter in exchange for 'burning brighter' (higher output), we'll just pretend it can only be one way.

As you may recall, Vegeta only did this for lack of a full moon to work with (and it cost him enough of his 18K that he was suddenly performing worse than half-assing Nappa *upon losing his tail to be left with his powered down state from using the technique, which gives the impression of dropping to sub-4K*).  Vegeta says it is 17M of some unit to trigger the transformation.  Our moon is just one-fourth of our Earth.  Theirs is even less (by far *to a laughable degree*).  If you humor the talk of being like our set-up, that just means the seeming 14K cost multiplied by 4 (high balling a bit) would just rise to 56K.  He couldn't put this out by himself until post-Recoome, but upon getting at First Form Frieza's level (530K), he would drop to 474K before the x4K modifier (as he is already an Oozaru Master *no requirement for SS exists in actuality*) would take him there and then to nearly 2B (*if not able to make a bigger Power Ball, just toss four of them to gawk at*).  A silly pay-off to be sure.

He would very probably vanquish any and all beings in the DB universe at that point in the story.  If you want to make it more costly, have him need to cover for losing the tail, too.  Perhaps x10 the cost (meme use of the Oozaru multiplier again).  Make that 56K go up to 560K.  Suddenly that Vegeta cannot do it yet.  What of the Vegeta facing final form (after another zenkai)?  He's surely 2M or so.  2M would drop to 1,440,000 before rebounding to almost 6B (the window where it isn't worth it *the first time without being healed* to gain access to this nonsense is quite small).  Again, dominating the threats of the universe from canon (not so much from GT where they let nobodies be at this level and beyond pretty easily).

If I'm remembering right, the Power Ball he used needlessly lasts 2 hours for that 14K cost.  Could he NOT just make it last one-quarter the length (30m) and intensify the output (x4) for "SS4" (again, as if it has anything to do with the others)?  Not like he needs them around upon getting the form unlocked (or even his tail based on GT's showing of him with it).  Some balancing was clearly needed.  But that's enough on this matter for the time being.  Don't go getting conned with talk of FPSS4, either. That's a whole lot of whatever (along with fanon on Gogeta's red hair).  If we're talking fanon, the only thing I'd be curious about is LSS mixing with SS3 (if it could possibly offset the drain on its own to some extent).

Ikari is another form that would be better for Vegeta (who mastered the state), but is pointless in the face of Mystic.  Gokek?  He can't control the state (and him getting control from seeing the Earth *not Pan* is laughable along with suddenly being full-sized and mouth-blasting things).  Should have had training from his Prince to that end.  Again, SKW covers this, so Gokek couldn't handle (what appears to just be a mutant thing anyway) it.  A fusion with Broly would be just as berserk as such.  Vegeta with Broly?  That's another story.  However, again, Mystic should be the way to go (until you just trump all with UI).

19Dragon Ball Empty Re: Dragon Ball Today at 2:09 am

Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright
>the very same

Interesting, didn't think you'd be interested enough to read a fanmade manga. What are your thoughts about it, in relation to the canon and non-canon manga?

>AT forgot

This seems like it would be some sort of meme. Wouldn't be surprised if it actually is.

I should note this, Google brought some news that caught my attention. It said something about Vegeta "finally" having his dream about overcoming Goku come true. It depicted Vegeta using a Spirit Bomb (or what "looks like it", according to the news).

>would have made a fool of Gohan

Indeed. But he DID have access to Galick Gun, and probably Final Flash. And yet, here we are.



Seriously though, now I wish that technique was used in Z. Shame how things have turned out.


I noticed. Like you, he has a tendency to call Goku and Vegeta "Gokek and Geets", respectively. I think I've only seen Hotel talking about DB twice, one on the KH boards, and the other was when he was arguing with a troll on the Mega Man 11 board, but I don't remember in what context the DB talk was used.

>man with a thousand names

Heh. Speaking about GoW, looking forward to playing it for the first time. Crimson told me that you still were in the mood to teach people new to the series.

>never can be too sure

Like with most GameFAQs users, about pretty much any topic you can imagine. Seen someone defending mediocre games because it taught him real life lessons. The one who said that was probably being sarcastic... or not.

>still waiting

You mean the manga will still continue past Moro saga?

>hybrid's full potential

I think I read that was originally the intention with SS2. Not sure if that was a direct statement from AT, or someone's guess.

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