God of War III Apollo/BOA/Chalice PAIN+ run

Here are the rules:

PAIN+ Conditions
-No upgrades
-No meter extensions
-No opening of chests
-No magic
-No Rage
-No parrying of projectiles (including Gorgon's gaze)
-No shattering of petrified enemies
-No Argo's revenge
-Items may not be used to deal damage (Bow of Apollo may be used for enemies that cannot be killed by other means). Additionally, Solar Flare (Head of Helios), and Fiery Inferno (Bow of Apollo) may not be used during combat.
-Icarus wings may only be used for gliding

Extra Conditions
-Hera's Chalice (slowly decreases health to near zero)
-Apollo's costume (Kratos does half damage, and enemies do half damage [made negligible by Hera's chalice])
-Aphrodite's Garter (Gives access to Blades of Athena which must always be used)

Side note:
-Most but not all attacks are a OHKO.
-Blades of Athena under these conditions are noticeable weaker than NUR Blades of Exile.
-I will have to see whether or not I will use Hermes evade. Most likely I will just use the Nemesis whip evade for the Skorpius.

I had some upload issues so I apologize if the videos are out of order on my channel. I will post them here.

part 1:

part 2 (Poseidon):

part 3:

part 4:

part 5:

part 6:

>no shattering of petrified enemies
Why?

>no Argo's Revenge
No Relic specific things despite being tied in with BoA, yes. Were this PAIN, it would be fine, but not so much PAIN+.

>Chalice
I forget where it stops. Not sure if it is as high as 25 units, but I don't think it goes to 1 (maybe 10).

>Apollo
Half damage won't affect our grabs, at least. Halved damage of foes won't include projectiles and grabs (doing as much as usual), but is a small boon if not already at critical life, sure.

>BoA
The focus, yes. I expect plenty of 's,t,t,t'. Maybe some specials (ground TR comes to mind) to horse around. Have to take care to avoid AW. Lacking CG will hurt here and there. Having classic t1 will only prove an issue at Zeus S3P2.

>most attacks are a OHKO
Is that right? It depends on how low your HP caps off. If at 25, anything doing a quarter of your life or more will apply, yes. Not sure that's more than half given how few moves do double that as they would need to best this costume's DEF (not remembering a lot of attacks that do half the starting MAX HP bar *Skorpius is obviously going to be your guy, but he already was, so...*). However, if as low as 10 (think it might be), then yes. Most things will one-shot when you cap on drain. A simple 2DMG attack (minor grunt light attacks are like this) would be 10 on VH, but they're nerfed here (to 5). Two-shot in that case. It would take a 4DMG or higher base (Enemy Power %) scaling attack to measure up to that.

>BoA are weaker than BoE
Is that right? Let's compare for this set-up (lvl on both, Apollo VH):

BoA / BoE (dash for "same")

s1 - 0.75 | -
s2 - 0.75 | -
s3 - 1.5 | -
s4 - 0.75/0.75 | -
s5 - 0.75/0.75 | -
s6 - 3 | -

S (Hyperion Charge) - 0.75 | N/A
s2a (Hyperion Rush) - 1.5 | N/A
t1a (Hyperion Rise) - 0.75 | N/A

t1 - 1.125/1.125 | 2.25
t2 - 1.5/1.5 | N/A
t3 (Spirit) - 0.75/4.5 | -
t0 (plume) - 2.25 | -

T (Olympic Ascension) - 0.75 | -

(R),t *Athena's Wrath* - 1.875 | N/A

(air) s1 - 0.75 | -
(air) s2 - 0.75 | -
(air) s3 - 1.5 | -
(air) t1 *Dissension* - 0.75/0.75 | -

L1+x (Icarus Ascension) - 1.875 | N/A

(air) Icarus Strike - 1.875 | N/A

L1+x (Rapid Switch) - 0.75 | -

(air) - 0.75/0.75 | -

L1+s (Cyclone of Chaos) - 0.375 per hit (9 hits) / 5 *ender* | N/A

(air) - 0.375 per hit (10 hits) | N/A

L1+t (Tartarus Rage) - 1.875/1.875, 1.875/1.875, 2.25 (9.75 damage total) | N/A

(air) - 0.375 per hit (hits vary) / 1.125 *ender* | N/A

L1+o (Rampage of the Furies) - 0.375 per hit (14 hits) / 1.875 *ender* | (Hyperion Ram) 1.875

(air) - 0.375 per hit (13 hits) | (Hyperion Ram) 1.875

Argo's Revenge - 5 | N/A

Argo's Return - 5 | 5

Divine Reckoning - approx 2 per hit (9 hits) | N/A

I don't believe Argo moves are altered by Power % or other modifiers. DR is a spell (and weaker than the more expensive AoS), so that much is obvious. Like the specials, most of these values won't mean much to you given the run restrictions (also, the moves aren't that awesome). What is nice is having "t2" and classic "t1" (most of the time). Sadly, it doesn't get the GoWII style REAL double hits on t0/t3 to make those moves more potent (instead TR is not scaled down properly). Still, Charge to Rush should be a quick path to knockback (though 's,t,t,s' is already pretty good). Shame AW can't multi-hit (would be nice for larger targets while going through walls, working range, etc.). On-landing air TR can allow on-demand bounce (don't think it is a full launch) quicker even than PoP. Not sure about the dps or utility value of spamming air L1+o as it isn't like you want to focus on direct damage (as with juggles) and it doesn't get stuck on big boys (maybe mobs) like BoE's air TR lvl2 (held). BoE's CG was desirable for easy mounting and knockback more than damage. As for how the two compare, Lights are all the same (air or ground *ignoring held moves and specials*). With heavies, all the same except access to t2 (obviously) and t1 being two rather than one hit (for the same value). The edge slightly goes to BoA in most scenarios between them at lvl1 (as I'd noted), but there will be times it hurts not to have the intended tool (or access to some of the toys tied to this one).

>Hermes Evade
Air dash? Same ruling as in PAIN+.

>upload issues
Figured.

>up to Hades
Anything since then or just waiting for me to get freed up?

Why?

I thought it was a violation under PAIN+. Looking back, Taz destroyed petrified enemies, however, Bick did not. I am also not so sure about the differences between PAIN and PAIN+, so I just restricted most things to be safe (better than an accidental violation).

Chalice

You will see that it gets pretty low. If lvl 1 Hp is 100, then I would estimate that it gets down to 10.

Air dash? Same ruling as in PAIN+.

Hopefully no exceptions for the Skorpius fight. But the Cestus evade is pitiful. Perhaps I will just use the BoA evade.

Anything since then or just waiting for me to get freed up?

Since then Hades has been kicking my ass. I've gotten close to the checkpoint though. Should be done by tomorrow.

>Taz did
He listens. The rule was only ever about us spending MP. We allow tricking even when it is on an otherwise forbidden tool, so why would we not allow friendly fire (status, hit property or damage)? I thought we went over this last time (so you would make good use of the mechanic to help in this run *thought it would mean a lot more in a PAIN than a PAIN+*).

>Bick did not
He's an idiot (read: doesn't listen). How many times must he redux for having failed to do so properly? How many evaluations are wasted on deaf ears requesting my wisdom? It is infuriating to deal with him (and I blame Franchise for requesting my aid in the first place). The only merit to be found is that he very slowly starts to show what I tell him after enough cycles of the same time loop (even as he fails to give credit properly). Ridiculous, but most of my alternatives speak Portuguese instead of retard.

>difference between PAIN and PAIN+
All comes down to one ruling being nerfed. "No Relics" becomes "No Rage" (just that relic cut off) in PAIN. We felt the loss of 'return' was pretty annoying, but we didn't want a version of PAIN without blocking the super state, either. That was the originally arbitrary division we made. GoW1 didn't have a need for such a thing, thus only PAIN. The legacy sense for how things were called is different from the philosophy that guides later. Were it (GoWII) ruled on by that system the notion of using how we start upon finishing the tutorial (so right after Rhodes) would mean we use lvl1 BoA. No allowance for progression unlocks ends up pulling away a lot of options that NUR/NUR+ enjoy. Opening chests would be fine. Any use of relics (including to parry *not even to counter*) would be forbidden (even for non-damaging purposes where purity is concerned *you don't have them in essence*). The 'plus' distinction would be taking away resources, but that only translates to chests in this case. You would suddenly not be allowed to use PR during the tutorial, but that's pretty whatever.

GoWIII's tutorial finishes with lvl1 BoE, but we don't have AoS yet. Thus, no spells (cast at will during tutorial). Don't have Items yet, so none of those. We do, however, have relics. Argo's Return (and Revenge during intro) would be allowed. Gliding (and specials during start)? Allowed. Chests? Fine. PAIN+ just takes them back away while denying use of MP during intro. We don't have RoS at the start, so it isn't on the menu.

GoW1's tutorial ends upon reaching Athens, so arguably you can have PR during PAIN (others might interpret the way we start at boot-up to be the calling point) and use MP on it. No resource spending means it (and chests) go away in PAIN+. CoO finishes after giving us Efreet, so that would be your spell option in PAIN. PAIN+ would take it and chests away. GoS ends its section with a spell, so just another tacking on of NCR conditions. GoW:A? You DO start with rage, so it would still be allowed in PAIN. You do not finish the tutorial with a spell, so that is out. You have barefists from the start, but WWs are iffy. Debatable, but you could count them as resources, thus allowed in PAIN, too. PAIN+ would take them away (not barefists) along with rage (flare-up is still a bit much, so same final ruling as in the actual run). Again, no chests.

NOTE: As you can see, the philosophy is an okay guiding principle, but sometimes a more custom take has its own appeals.

>gets pretty low
Yeah, I was thinking 10 sounded about right. Definitely NOT 1, but probably not as high as 25 (or even 20). Maybe 15. I'll see soon enough.

>Skorp
Use either Cestus (the fight already pushes it) or BoA (roll is plenty good enough).

>ass kicked by Hades
Thought you were done with him. You properly getting down the talk I gave from last time?:

-S2P1 hugging of non-stomping leg and going between them (under him) during unblockable ender
-Phase 2 (Wall) working of the hips and how to limit movement while clearing attacks to punish with your own
-Phase 3 (Meat) build-up while hitting arms to unload safely on target
-Stage 3 geyser punish (think SpeedMartyr more recently showed nearly the full punish) using build-up to just barely outpace the attack while dealing damage before unloading with t3 (the real thing gets two reps in). I've mentioned before how your run would have to test to see if you can get more than that through 's,t,t,t' or just 't,t,t' OR if the heavies in question cause a problem with staying ahead of the attack giving chase (something you would be more qualified to weigh in on after having learned the BoE way of doing it with the long dial-up)

NOTE: Even if not 's,t,t,t', you might want to go with more than just 's,t' since t2 is available and stronger than just t1. Something like 's,t,t' might be a thing for this run (before canceling for safety and going for another rep).

"The god of the Underworld is dead."

>new shit
So I saw. Noticed roughly 3 minutes after upload.  However, my time is short.  Might not get to this right away.  Have other matters to attend.  Perhaps there will be a few more by then.

so why would we not allow friendly fire (status, hit property or damage)?

Nothing that can't be changed in the previous videos. I will remove it from the descriptions.

Any use of relics (including to parry *not even to counter*) would be forbidden (even for non-damaging purposes where purity is concerned *you don't have them in essence*).

Seems pretty harsh given the parry windows.

GoWIII's tutorial finishes with lvl1 BoE, but we don't have AoS yet. Thus, no spells (cast at will during tutorial). Don't have Items yet, so none of those. We do, however, have relics. Argo's Return (and Revenge during intro) would be allowed. Gliding (and specials during start)? Allowed. Chests?

My first GoW III PAIN run seems to have been about right if that's how it is. For a while (before No Weapons), I thought about redoing it because I used returns.

GoW1's tutorial ends upon reaching Athens, so arguably you can have PR during PAIN (others might interpret the way we start at boot-up to be the calling point) and use MP on it..

Never knew that was the case. I would much rather do a modified NUR than use magic in PAIN; it just seems like something that I should drop from there. I'm just going to skip PAIN and go to PAIN+ from NUR+ when I get to it.

Perhaps there will be a few more by then.

Hermes by tomorrow if possible.

part 8:

part 9:

part 10

part 11:

part 12:

Hercules

part 14:

>description changes
So I've seen.

>would be pretty harsh
We thought the same. For the version sticking to how the philosophy (made later) works, it would be inarguable. Just how it goes. PAIN would take it away (as a progression unlock).

>used returns
PAIN+ doesn't allow them, but the version of PAIN in question (not the official rulings people are held to) would permit it. Many people run afoul of this and in GoWIII the biggest source of DQs? Cestus. By far. People fuck up and accidentally hit where not permitted like crazy in Box 6. Me? Not a fan of people failing to adhere to it. Part of the challenge is that very inconvenience (needing to walk on eggshells when throwing out attacks *just as the parry becomes scary to use for fear of a return screwing you on the defense front*).

>never knew
Allow me to clarify once more. GoW (as a series) does NOT adhere to PAIN philosophy. That was something that was made years later. GoW is where the run type started, but the rulings are based on vet community tastes (the vast majority at TUGOWU didn't like 'no hit', so the use of the resource that is HP is allowed *via taking damage*). How you've been understanding PAIN and PAIN+ is correct. What I'm talking about is what the runs would be like if the rules were adjusted to match the philosophy (dictating rules instead of going off tastes of vets like myself). While it is true both are from me, I don't have as much control over the new system. It is up to how the game was made to dictate things (more so than before).

>skip to PAIN+
PAIN is all GoW1 has. The others have PAIN+. I don't recommend PAIN for the other entries save maybe GoWIII if dabbling in BoA or GoW:A (just because of how obnoxious the difference made by 'plus' is). It is just a slightly watered down version of the real deal. I forget what we even do to distinguish the two in GoS (let alone CoO). Usually the 'plus' has some bothersome source of DQs tied to it.

>most recent video
All caught up (same for replies).

part 15:

part 16 (Cronos):

Sorry that It took so long, I was stuck on the 2x Chimera fight, then gave up for a few days. Then I was stuck on Cronos (surprisingly). Also, gave up after that and came back. I am now on the Cyclops fight. Should be done with it soon.

All caught up (same for replies).

I will catch up with that as well.

>catch-up
Hopefully my days off will see me do the same.

>stuck on x2 Chimera and Cronos
The latter is more surprising. Not sure what it would be. Tagged while at low HP during wall bit or something? As for the former, having a good feel for punishing a given form of the beast is good, but using pots effectively and/or just splitting the two up tends to be best. Desirable to not find oneself needing to work the boundary (or even the camera).

>Cyclops Box
A lovely bit. I wonder if you'll be trying to face them in the open, go after all the Enforcers first, ignore Enforcers, efficiently used mounted Berserker, get the Berserker stuck between foreground chests (and chip with the likes of t3 while walking on the edge), etc.

part 17:

part 18:

The latter is more surprising. Not sure what it would be.

Lots of fails at the Talons. As you already know, the grab system prioritizes stronger foes, so despite the fact that I was closer to, and was facing the grunts, I false OS the Talons instead and get killed.

>Talos targeting with the others closer, aiming for and looking at another
Higher priority. Need them to either be behind what you want to attempt to grab or outside the range of OS attempting to go for them (reminds of GoW:A with Tether having a strong thirst for Shield Grunts *sans the ability to tell it to fuck off*).

>more parts
All in cue.

We may have a problem. And it's not surprising that the problem is at the Skorpius.

Breaking the legs is not so difficult (no more so than it usually is). However, after the Skorpius is downed and we have the opportunity to wail on it, an issue of dps emerges. Given that this run is half dmg. (Apollo costume), it seems that I cannot progress to the next stage of this fight since the Skorpius recovers before I can get an O-prompt. I started with the Cestus mashing /\ and got nothing. Then I used BoA TR (air) and still got nothing. The dps is just not enough for the window of time given. If you want, I can send you a private link to see it, but so far, it seems as if I am going to have to violate the conditions of this run in order to defeat this joke of a boss.

>issue at Monster Truck
Shouldn't be.  I suppose you just need to not get tagged (play carefully *take it slow*) and do the same as in VH PAIN+.  Cestus is allowed for the fight (exception granted).  If you want to switch to other things to evade, I don't care (just don't air dash).  The dps is the same as with BoE, so you cannot hope to beat the face phase (it does NOT carry over progress on it and will reset the legs to an extent, even).  Just forget that weapon focus here.  If you want to challenge yourself to NOT hit any Spawns during P1 (can't be helped with P2), go for it.

>Apollo
Ah, yes.  I'd forgotten about that.  With gow3forums down, I don't have the coverage from it (as with NGR+ NUR+ and NBR+ NUR+ *and some others).  Don't recall the particulars, but it seems odd that I would forget that hurdle (then again, I would have quickly shrugged it off as what it was after giving it the old college try).  Let me see if I can find an old video where I weigh in or something.  **checks**  Right:

So, here you can see he's not fussing over taking out the adds with Cestus.  Sticks to that weapon given how the fight was designed (forcing our hand).  He doesn't have the Chalice, but that is just a matter of what sort of damage you can take.  Sadly, he isn't doing the thing I like best (breaking a limb and partially locking the boss to control the fight while chipping away at the Onyx).  Any use of it is simply incidental.  He does end up switching to BoE for quick rolling (for distance).  Breaks a full side without weakening the other at all.  Not really what I recommend.  ...Curious.  So that's why he did it that way.  He failed to finish (S1)P2, so he had to redo the legs.

I was quite sure the face did not work like Kraken (keeping your place unless you break it and FAIL with the next part).  Here you see him just (in essence) double up the fight by breaking a set of three to bring it down, do the usual to chip away and repeat to beat S1 (moving on to the same with S2).  The second time in P1 of S1, he bothers to weaken other legs as he'll be closing the deal to reach S2 (still no checkpoint, but whatever).  I imagine he repeats this mentality for S2.  This being the case, one can avoid dealing with undesirable legs by favoring the front and tolerating repeats of the battle (probably still not desirable).  At least only the FIRST drop will ever do the forced visual cue.

Ah, but S2P2 was one-rounded.  Curious.  I don't recall it having less HP for this face phase.  Something off about how this works.  Then you need only do as demonstrated (and see that it is so for your version as well).  Perhaps there was an oversight in how we had understood the fight to work after all.

Skorpius:

Thanks for the help. I was having thoughts about ending this run at this point (more so than with 'No Weapons Run'). So I really appreciate it. I didn't look too hard for any other examples to follow. I did find:
Skip to 46:30

The difference being that this player was doing NUR+, so he had access to magic (and inferno for the extras). Other than those two, I couldn't find an Apollo NUR and above on the Skorpius.

S1P2 is impossible under these conditions (the first time), and I think OG Kratos knew that (hence the focus being on the spawns instead of the boss). The issue is that there simply isn't enough time because the game stops and pans the camera over to the face, losing a few seconds in the process. After that first down however, you have enough to get an O-prompt, so the next phases were standard. I did use a different leg strategy to make up for this dps issue, which you will see.

part 20:

part 21:

Endurance fight:

>thoughts of ending it over an exception
Well, glad there was an out, then. Such things don't detour me much.

>other uploads
I'm caught up now.

Breeder+Satyrs:

Put it into history. I imagine you'll be done with the run before I get back to you, however. What was next, again?

Next?

My next run is Apollo/Cestus/Chalice PAIN+. After that, I may stop there and move on to another entry, so I won't be revisiting GoW III for a while. I recall telling you before about my inconvenience with playing Ascension, but now I am considering PS Now since the service has gotten better (would much rather have a port but we all know that ain't happening).

One more question. I am on the final stage of Zeus right now. Am I allowed to use the Cestus to stop Gaia's heart? Seems like a Gray area, but the weapon is not being used against the boss.

>VH Apollo Cestus PAIN+ w/ Chalice
So you starting recording at getting Cestus or doing the NER version where it is MAX (using NG+ Glitch), but you have it from the start? Both are viable given it and NW both only get +40% from base at lvl3. The only real boon would be the light special to spam against Onyx (like Skorpius legs). Get to use it in weird places, too. Your call. Already sort of a goofy run (and being nerfed via Apollo can offset concerns about being too strong just a bit). What then? NW time? You'll love bits where you can't just launch things. Not great for knockback (let alone bounce). Tirades can be fun to work with, but also a real challenge in places (like when against multiples foes no-selling your ass).

>may stop
Before working with the only weapon (set-up type) worthy of a vet with multiple specials that aren't shit? Would be just a terrible shame. Granted, you could return another time.

>issue with GoW:A
Right, right.

>PS Now
Should be fine.

>stop Gaia's heart
You don't need to do that to begin with, so no. His recovery isn't that hard to outpace. The idea is to slap his shit while he's busy doing things he cannot clone during (at the heart or making ready to charge it *the latter in particular*). Classic Bravery ain't a good tool to rely on for bounce in S3P2 thanks to cloning (as it is multi-hit so it can provoke him). T or Rise (would also say IA, but it is ruled out by PAIN+) might be good to try as air OS set-ups. Otherwise, give up on slamming him to the ground. Doing so to the clones should be fine (good idea to clear them up *even if just waiting until he is going for the heart*). Going after the heart is more for heals, which doesn't really help you (HP drain). Stopping him from going after the heart by shutting it down is less desirable than just going after him directly.

>gray area
It is being used to deal HP DMG. The heart is not Onyx (nor forced).

His recovery isn't that hard to outpace

My problem is that my dps is too low (Apollo) to actually stop him before he reaches the heart. And it seems that he just recovers all of the damage that I do to him. Even s, t, t, t and TR in a row isn't enough. I could stop him when he reaches it but he still gets back some health. I'm fine with punishing him with OS (air), though.

Disregard my last comment. I just beat him. Will upload in a few minutes. The last stage took about 15 minutes (was a bit sloppy) mostly because I wasn't going for grabs like before. We will discuss it in the comments section later. Thanks for the help.

My notes are just from VH PAIN+ BoA, so I'll have to test directly.  First time I've booted it up since 2013, apparently.  I've got an Apollo run set-up, at least.  At just before the Hades boss fight.  Thrilling.  Time to cheat my way through for speed.  Before I rush things.

Wall attacks:

Light chain - s,s,s,s (s1,s2,s3,s4)
Heavy chain - t,t,t (t1,t2,t3)

s1 chains into either s2 or t2.  s2 chains into s3 or t2.  s3 chains into s4 (Valor) or t2.  t1 chains into s2 or t2.  t2 chains into s4 or t3 (Plume).  The only moves with mobility are t2 and t3.  Not sure if this version of Plume has a multi-hit (even if it did, it would likely be false like the ground case).  The fastest string for getting to heavy ender would be 's,t,t'.  Would also be the most mobile.

My ground s1 does the expected 0.75 per hit like this.  I have the cheat for x3 hits on so I can see a single hit landing (supposing it wasn't during i-frames for a false count, but I don't think that'll factor this time).  Time to see about what we're working with for the others.  0.375 is the modifier (all things said).  Seems fairly clear the Icarus attacks do scale with Power %.  Fleece, too (not absolutely sure about Return just now as I can't test it on harpies).  Just wanted to be sure.  Divine Reckoning is meant to be 11 hits with 2DMG per hit, I believe.  Should be 22 for an insta-kill.  It isn't.  The only thing to suspect is Power %.  If that is true, each hit drops to 0.75.  That would mean 8.25DMG per cast.  It takes at least two casts to kill them with it...With the value possibly being the same as s1, it should take 20 hits (with the cheat off).  It does.  Shit.  It is fucked just like Nemean Roar (except it has even lower base damage).

Noted.  Now then.  Each air OS feels like 5DMG.  I was able to chain by using air OS low to the ground then leaping on-landing into another for what that is worth (not much with air OS infinite, insta-kill with alt.OH and OS kill, their low HP, low petrification resist, etc.).  OH seemed like 10.  With some things established for damage, I can try to approximate.  Pardon this old man getting the rust off, will ya?  For damage:

(wall) s1 - 5 (1.875 here)
(wall) s2 - 5
(wall) s3 - 5
(wall) s4 - 5
(wall) t1 - 10 (3.75 here)
(wall) t2 - 10
(wall) t3 - 10

Saw some oddities, but I think I got the t1 down.  Already looking like the wall attacks are stronger than the ground stuff (I wasn't entirely expecting more than just 6 base on it to tie with ground Bravery).  All the heavies seem the exact same.  The lights are all weaker, but the same as well.  Seems the wall lights are half as strong as the heavies.  Wall grab won't connect on harpies even when within range.  Can't speak for gap crossing.  Doesn't seem like slide does anything.  Anyway, that's how it is.  For future reference on walls, those are the values.  As for the best dps you can get out of them, that's hard to say.

Can't really cancel to rapidly do 's,t', but for a situation where you need to interrupt right away into a heavy punish it should be good (just time the breaks between inputs so it doesn't chain).  With a little more time, 't,t' is probably better.  For reach when unable to move towards the target (off wall like Poseidon), you can't count on anything other than lights and (especially) t1.  Seems like s3 and s4 have more range than s1 and s2.  If I had to guess, timing breaks between t1 would be the best dps with the best change of hitting the target (when unable to close the gap).  Not so hot when they're behind you, but we're not really fretting over such things here.

Things to keep in mind in the next fight with Hippocampus and Poseidon.  As for the Ceiling, I can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if they lazily applied the same values (5 for lights and 10 for heavy).  You would think the enders would be different, but I guess not (this time).  Turning tech with the heavy should make it worth at least 20 (2 hits) though I think it might be possible to land 3 on one foe in one use (for 30).  Might have been a close competition with just the 2 hit tech, but not with 3.  Not clear just yet what the reality is (just guessing about what the values might be).

Might be good to use s,t,t,s into s,t (during his shuffle after stagger) as punishment when circle strafing (I was using CCW) S2P1 Hades.  Getting grabbed while in the air moves him to one side or the other a bit.  Might be something to that if willing and able to eat a hit (then work the other side).  Sort of seemed like S2P2 souls would whiff if running up-right against the wall pillar while on the right (opposite for the left).  S2P1 recovers too fast out of stomp or the old melee string into the new triple strike (with unblockable ender).  Better to just punish until he is about to do the triple strike (circle strafe with air block to defend while not being pinned in place) into 's,t,t,s'.  I think there is barely enough time for 's,t' follow-up again.  Don't recall what the deal was with the hopping around (just not sure S2P1 leaves enough time for more than t1) or grab (shouldn't see the latter in close).

S3 took some practicing again to get it right with x2 full punish of 's,t,t,t'.  Working his left hip (rightside) was safer if sticking close as you would have more time to react to his unblockable summon animation for Mongrels (just evade through his left (our right) second swing or space it.  Seems like the swipe is NOT the attack, but the unblockable part is the appearance of the Mongrels themselves (their bodies).  They become blockable shortly afterwards.  The attack hits pretty high, so I don't think air strats are viable.  Can only have two out at once, so if he doubles up summoning the second cast's second mutt won't come out (creating an opening).  Working the front can also allow you to avoid the unblockable concern (if spaced just a bit away).  He still has the grab to watch for (can evade through *not great from the front as you'll end up on his sides* or just space *sort of a hassle to leap over properly but backing away for 's,t,t' is fine but don't pull the trigger unless it'll finish him*).

Start-up of Geyser is not an attack, but it IS invincible.  The flailing that is.  The ground impale is an attack (and returns him to vulnerability) and hits near the body, but is blockable (unlike Geyser).  Geyser won't always appear if too near/over the boss.  Can get stuck on him to an extent, but also evade under his legs.  Very important to preserve momentum if you want to outpace them (slow as they are).  Better if you don't have to roll.  If you do, you'll need to step a bit before going into another string (or it'll catch up to you).  Yeah, that seems good.

So work the front at a small distance away.  If a grab, just move back a bit and go in with 's,t,t' (don't end without knowing it'll finish).  IF you react quickly you can start-up 's,t,t,t' with s1 whiffing during dial-up before turning back to land the rest.  Your call.  If he goes for SS, I move away a little and to our right before doing a running block over the rightside mongrel (just after it stops being an attack) and watch what he'll do next.  If another summon, the attack can't hit me.  If a grab, you need to evade or get away.

If Geyser, just block until the summons are gone before punishing it at leisure.  No need to rush.  Just start from one side and work to the other while near enough for the string to hit him throughout.  Then trot just a bit (about a geyser or so allowed to whiff) while minding your distance from where the attacks come up before going back in for another pass (then get back to center).  It is that sort of thing.  Mongrels don't disappear just for reaching "O".  I'm satisfied with this testing.  Should improve future advising of others a bit.  Mind you, most will be using the long path to t3.  Still enough time for two there.  Knowing you cannot punish the start of Geyser is good (waste to even try).

NOTE: I'll be updating as I progress.  Shouldn't be super long as I don't want to test everywhere too much.  Mostly want to get a save at Skorpius, mess with Box 4 a bit, see if I still have the touch on HCB (for x3 OS lock) and test Zeus S3(mostly P2).

>disregard
Well, you already got me playing it again, so I might as well push ahead to see what's going on anyway. My old notes had me furious about RNG for managing air OS strats. I know I ended up switching in another such run to punishing the charges, but I can't recall if that was with Apollo.

Zeus:

>vid out
I'll try to see if I can't test before I get there. Freshen up a bit.

(Mounted) Cyclops Berserker:

s1 - ?

s2 - ?

t1 - ?

You get 10 lights or 5 heavies before the next input will make him crumple. Then you've got two lights or a heavy remaining before you'll go into the OS kill mini-game. Attempting to use a light/heavy combo (either way) will be too much. Going into the OS will prevent exploiting the mount repeatedly (next "O" will go right into it again). If you avoid this and get tossed off, you pick up (in the case of being tapped out) with two lights or a heavy before the kneel (then another two lights or a heavy). You need only have HP enough to survive losing the toss off to keep mounting for these big hits while invincible. Not sure how practical it would be at critical (from the Chalice), however. I'd have to see how many you can survive. I'm sure the Mongrel is a similar case. When thrown off, you are in a position that doesn't get up quickly, but evasion cancels this.

NOTE: Probably should have tried to test the damage values here (annoying as it would have been). Would probably need to get off the cyclops and carefully ignore it while killing the others down to the individual I want to test. Probably a Guardian if it can survive one full heavy hit. Not sure if it takes 'crush' damage from the Onyx (or if it is just 'break'). I forget. Will probably have to come back here at some point to do this.

(rope) s1 - 1.875 (5)

(rope) t1 - 2.625 (7)

NOTE: This just leaves the ceilings to approximate. Hopefully the climbers ahead are Sentries. I imagine they are the 35 (rather than 20) HP case. Or are the lads ahead skellies? If so, they are at 60HP. Not sure what values I should expect. Ideally something about the same as the wall case. No harpies around for that instance.

(Mounted) Cerberus Mongrel

s1 - ?

t1 - ?

You get 12 lights or 4 heavies before it kneels. Then 3 lights or 1 heavy before the OS kill. Same rules for mount exploitation. If you allow yourself to be tossed early, you get 4L, 1H or 1L/1H before kneel (then the normal amount post-kneel).

NOTE: Worked called me in early. Can't continue right now. Just how it is.

EDIT

Now they've called me out of my sleep again. Time to get back to work. On GoW. Thinking on it, I'm sure I did values testing on mounted shit in the past. Probably at GoWIII boards (gone now). Would have used the Arena to help with that. I know I had mastery of mount abuse in the past, too. I'd even made a challenge that would be obnoxious without it (as you need the invincible super attacks to burn through high HP targets in a reasonable time frame *might have been something like a non-respawning Mongrel teamed with x2 HCB and needing to clear it quick*). I know I've never done wall, rope and ceiling. Well until now. Ceiling is all that remains, but I'm unsure how I would really get an accurate test. I'd be relying pretty heavily on assumptions to make approximations.


NOTE: Wall civvies probably have meme HP like HCWs (so you can't be denied killing them in a single blow). You can cancel (with an evade) any wall attack at any time. Shame t3 can't leapfrog over them.

Hermes. What a bitch. He has a slight step difference when he makes his body a true unblockable (slaps). Speeds up during this and gains phantom range (how nice for him). His wall flip is just an unblockable (won't go into the grab). His flip out of a regular run is the grab. Reverse is 2/3/4 times (each phase) to finish him. Implies his HP is higher in each part (even as he begins falling more). He seems like he wants to do this less with each phase, too. Slide should be invincible, but I wonder sometimes. He's obviously exposed when he falls from the walls (chase him to them). Even recognizing the step difference still leaves it quite subtle and hard to react in time (to evade or move into the grab to help it connect for a reversal punish). His slaps HURT. His bullshit design is why so many runs just try to chip him from outside aggro range (or hit him while catching his breath before fleeing to reset the situation).

Seems like he cannot attack if switching to defense (bow shots are an example of something forcing his hand). He can't 'rush' you. He'll either have to run away, slide or leap (grab). Could be useful in other runs to know if RNG is favorable (grabs). The wall flip is a brief opening to land some hits he otherwise evades. Not sure about other openings. He starts falling in P2. Seems like 30.75/50/70. Doesn't seem like you can get overage between orb drops (no way to one-shot). For P1, the star is to say 'and change' as it seems like just 30, but that wasn't enough (and 32 was excessive *30.5 wasn't enough*). My 0.75DMG extra hit finished the job. 30.75 would be weird, but not impossible. Not sure why it is that way (probably a coding error *wrong value*). False OS doesn't exist (just whiffs). Well, other than with CoH CG.

No reliable way to bait the grab in the end. Sucks the tell is so bad for the UNBLOCKABLE heavy damage 'rush' (slaps). Shame my melee can't provoke him like the bow can or it would be wise to just let attack priority guide my swings while pacing them to keep him behaved until he tries to grab me. RNG can screw you like this, but it came close to being a new way to go. Not sure about the grab reverse. 22.5DMG so it seems. Odd call, but it checks out. Hate that select pausing hides the QTE input (and puts a slight delay on it becoming visible again). Don't care for it instantly failing you if you were moving during the mini-game's start-up (should have a longer delay before it starts after the slow-down).

BoA 'rush' strats were as close as I came to feeling like I could provoke his grab (then reverse it). RoS is turned off by our use of a grab (even on whiff) and his landing a grab. Activation won't win the mini-game (not that sort of grab). RoS's running attack never seems to come out on him. No good reason to use Sentries or Archer (as even the latter with 5 hits landing on wall flops *hard to do anyway* is just 10DMG at lvl1 for 10MP, which is just 1:1 like Mongrel, which is easier to land at 15DMG for 15MP at lvl1). Anyway, that's about all I can say about it in this testing session.

EDIT 2

Hermes Boots trial has an invisible wall beyond the leftside boundary (the gap) that a BR can collide with. Rightside boundary lets them fall through the map for RO if you toss them to the lower level, but no orb gain. RO is blocked by invisible walls for the low rails ahead (more Sentries), but the starting point (after the vertical wall run) has none (kill floor gives orbs). Intangible Siren state can be bested with a bug (parry them into a wall collision), but it grants just a momentary punish opening. If she regains footing, the bug ends. If you grab her once (OH or air OS), the bug sticks. She can reuse intangibility like this. While bugged, she uses her normal moves (not just the swipe). Hitting her bugged state with Flash/Flare won't end it. If you just beat on her while in the temp bug state without letting her escape she never triggers her "O" (just dies from damage). Not sure why the elevator with Guardians didn't allow parry (for a wall collision) to bug them out. Pretty sure it works that way elsewhere. Out of time at Herc.


EDIT 3

S1 - Archers are not infinite. Not sure how much it helps for something like NGR+ PAIN+, but taking them out would at least prevent chip (more meaningful with Chalice).

S2 - He really likes to spam calls to rally (rarely arrows) at a distance. They'll charge you even when launched in the air. This along with infinite respawns makes them obnoxious distractions you basically have to just keep contend with (not a problem when allowed to use BR). In close, it is typically just the unblockable 's,s,t'. Friendly Fire can jack up the crowd for you. Baiting it is good for stopping rallies and opening him up a bit. Archers are still not infinite. More notable is that halved grunts can't magically rush us down. With BoA, I favored air TR while kiting them along to halve after luring Herc to the foreground (and them to the background). Kept the crawlers away from the others until I had nothing but the belly-draggers before luring them away to pursue into air RotF (chipping archers to death). Takes a lot of time. Probably still better to just chip away at Herc more normally even in such a restricted run (maybe with air RotF during openings).

With P2 he uses unblockable 's, 's,t' or 's,t,t'. His second heavy recovers faster than you would expect. Typical of him, he can block out of unsafe things if he feels like it, too. His light is faster here. His heavy doesn't hit in melee range save for on the ground (shockwave). Shockwave hits about half a jump off the ground. Knockback on his lights is pretty crazy (wall carry from one side to the other). Those heavy BR controls sure are awkward. The idea is to point the left analog in the direction Kratos is facing and rotate CW or CCW relative to where you want to steer (then holding towards the spikes you're aiming for). Obviously taunts and rallies are openings. Jumping screws over chasing mooks thought trot is already fast enough for them. Circle strafing shits all over his lights (not enough tracking in close).

Had three weird bugs. One with Herc just walking into the corner (fixed in a few seconds), another with fodder not working (for a minute) and the last with Herc seemingly defeating himself. Thought the last one was making him walk into spike walls (got excited at the prospect), but that isn't it. Not sure if he has to kill an ever increasing number of his fellows (least likely), if they were able to hit HIM (possible given what I've seen) or if it is about him causing collisions on himself when knocking his allies around. (quite probable). I'm thinking it might be option D (B and C). In essence, he and his flunkies slap his shit. Pretty quick in P1 (especially if you make them group by the wall), but way longer in P2. I forget what the HP distribution here is.

S3 - Has 's,s', 's,s,t' or 't' (only part with a heavy starter). Doesn't seem to rally anymore. Light start-up is slow again. Had another bug where he had allies in S3. Could let them slap him or BR him to death. No idea why it happened. Might be the system being on too long or too many restarts or whatever. He just didn't start with the 'armor for weaklings' thing. Beat him up and he did the clap (for S4). Restarted and it worked fine. If you neglect his dizzy, it becomes wander for a bit (fighting him with "O" over his head *using it warps you into place*) before fixing itself. His parry pose is invincible. If you delay long enough you can catch him during the recovery for a free hit. Thought I saw Spirit go over one of his heavies (like jump frames). Only happened once. If you slap him out of "O", it ends right away. His riposte is open to punishment (looks like a light, but comes out fast after a brief delay). Pretty hard to consistently evade trick his heavies as the shockwave hitbox is a bit odd (can roll into it). Had times I could act sooner than I should after the clap.

NOTE: If I understood S3 a bit better, I might make a challenge to do S2 and S3 with just friendly fire killing him. As is, can only apply it to S2 (still something different). AKheon would approve.

S4 - Nothing interesting to report. Ended up forgetting to test for things with Items. Meh. Didn't feel like doing any more values testing, either.

Had no idea the dog lift could collapse. It looked like it could, but I'd never seen it until messing around with NGR+ PAIN+. Could pacifist down to 1 dog (of the starting 4), but then there is no way to spare the final one. No matter. Tried to get cute with the Talos, but was just left with boundary abuse (or obstruction). Shame the heat-up mechanic is fake. Also, no RO. Couldn't even make them go through the portal (trapping them on the platform). Would have been cool if both were heavy enough that it made it drop (killing them). Didn't realize they put invisible walls up in a fashion similar to the Bog crossing of GoWII just before Aphrodite.

I'm satisfied with Gates of Tisiphone now. I've locked in each phase of Chimera with pots (while fighting the other) now. Made "L" shapes for them to slip behind that block their pathfinding to where I'd go (the background) with the other. Another option I had for Lion (don't think it works on Snake or Goat), was to pull it (easiest when freshly spawned and the other Snek is coming in from its spawn point) to the bottom-right corner (sort of blue spot) during its melee. It goes beyond a threshold and stops functioning correctly (then I get away and fight the other) until struck. I can't recall a lock for the serpent, but sheep jobs to foreground boundaray abuse if you want to chip him out. Better than that is camera abuse (gets stuck doing his flamewave until you close enough distance). That alone (when put at the bottom) can be enough to isolate the other enemy for 1v1 from Snek all the way to Goat (and dead). Background (door) is pretty alright for Goat with my usual approach of t0 (only) after hopping the flamewave to stagger it before baking t3 to land as it stops the CCW steps (have to mind if it is off-screen *or blocked by something*) If timed right, attempts to charge are interrupted. If it no-sells, that is flames again (leap it and repeat the process). Simple enough to kill one and then get the other alone. Not sure how good it actually is to get multi-explosions (multi-use of the same one and/or two at once). Definitely good to blast both Chimera (if just trying to maximize value). Didn't feel that effective to go for the bug.

(Ceiling) s1 - 5 (1.875)

(Ceiling) s2 - 5

(Ceiling) s3 - 10 (3.75)

(Ceiling) t1 - 5

I'm impressed with how inept the AI is here. Just wait and they'll often fail pathfinding and just drop to their death. No control of where we toss those grabbed while valid targets are in range (as usual). Got a ranged grab here. Cursed Remains (reskinned Olympus Sentries) have 60HP. You cannot movement cancel the heavy, but you can turn during it for a double hit (couldn't get triples myself). Being that it is balanced as worth only that of a light, it cannot compete. Shame. Losing the safety in exchange for skillfully turning during the attack for 10/10 in the time it takes for lights to get 5/5 would have kept it competitive. Enemies cannot shake out of this grab (as with the wall). No real effort put into these sections. Can't even chain between light and heavy outside walls. This fight doesn't even let you opt to drop (could have CG'd back up after a special or something to spice things up). Now we know the base values for each situation. Thrilling. Anyway, we can make informed decisions based on them, at least. I'll stop there for the night.

EDIT 4

It occurs to me that having the values I do now permits me to test for approximate HP on Hippocampus (S2 and S3) where I could not before. Might do that in the near future. Should probably test Hades S4 HP (so we know the deal with those attacks *approximately*). Sure was annoying mounting the Cyclops Remains when I dabbled in VH PAIN+ NGR+ BoA. Just lots of using t0/t3 to control grouped up Cursed Remains while using baited kicks as wide openings to get in damage on the big boy. Easily did x3 OS lock set-up on the first Satyr, but went to try opening the door to fight beyond it only to get trapped outside (even on restart). Bah.

How disappointing. So if you let yourself be dismounted early, you get taken to the same HP remaining (for mount use, anyway) as if at death's door. Worse, it does 10DMG (sometimes bugging for double that from what I'm fairly sure I saw a time or two). Apparently that is where Hera's Chalice bottoms out. For runs with 11HP or more remaining, you can opt to 'take the throw' in exchange for dishing out some extra hurt. Still good info, but not quite as useful as I'd hoped (for this run anyway).

Got to mess with wall strats (updated) against the Gorgon/Harpy encounter. Lured them to the net and used t1 to chip the birbs away. Once the bats were gone, I would pull the snek close enough to at least do that much (if not a full sideways 't,t,t' towards the corner so I wouldn't move further away) until she died. This to test what it would be like without using grabs, using RO, etc. in these conditions. Takes a bit, but quiet easy. A little luring is needed when the girls run off on you. Have to take care as Kratos will not always (though usually) catch him self on the net (sometimes running over the side just sends us, so you need to react in time). At Skorpius now. I'll resume later.

My notes are just from VH PAIN+ BoA, so I'll have to test directly.

I was actually able to stagger, but the window is very tight. I know in BOA PAIN+ you can have the heart active and prevent clone spawns. My misunderstanding was with heals. I was under the impression that I could not out dps him at Gaia's heart.

Seems fairly clear the Icarus attacks do scale with Power %

Still a very strong tool. I should have used it more in No Weapons Run.

Divine Reckoning is meant to be 11 hits with 2DMG per hit, I believe.

I'm sure it's 9 hits.

OH seemed like 10.

More than OS (air)? Isn't the damage unique for the enemy type?

(just evade through his left (our right) second swing or space it

Courageous, I see.

Start-up of Geyser is not an attack, but it IS invincible.

Good to know. Not an issue if going for t3 punisher.

Well, you already got me playing it again, so I might as well push ahead to see what's going on anyway.

Got you out of retirement?

My old notes had me furious about RNG for managing air OS strats.

I barely even focused on that this time. I just spammed T (locks him for some time in P1), and grabbed when I could. Most of the fight felt like NGR.

>thought his heal was stronger than it is
Didn't I say it was about the same as doing one air OS on him? Think it was something like 10 for S3P2 though he can go beyond his HP (up to 20) if you just let him.

>still very good
True, just not for DMG (like I'd wanted the case to be for this run).

>should have used it more in NWR
Not untrue. It had its times and places.

>sure it is 9
Typically, yes. My notes said the same. However, I had a time it landed 11 on a single target. Or so it seemed. Perhaps pots were caught in the blast without my noticing. I'd seen throughout this run (with x3 hit count on oftentimes to detect single hits) that was the case.

>more than air OS
Double it, yes. This aside from alt.OH tying with ground OS (insta-kill).

>unique for enemy type
To an extent this is true. Sometimes they scale the damage up proportionally, sometimes just a bit and other times it is just the same (getting worse with each more advanced version). GoW1 liked being proportional (which created cases like Minotaur Grunt and Tormentors jobbing in the same number of air OS despite a vast HP difference).

>courageous
Only as much as my player ability allows. This one is easy for me. I find consistently evading some of Herc's attacks in the same manner quite a bit harder.

>out of retirement
I'd not fully retired (no more so than before *when I was just teaching*), but I had been inactive as a player since I returned to finish up with GoW:A (other than recording shit). My controller is still damaged from VH PAIN+ ToA W1, which is beginning to annoy me as (R) can be face buttons and even R2 when it feels like acting up. This and the move damaged my TV, so I can't use HDMI 2 while HDMI 1 sometimes kicks out for a 1-3 seconds.

>spammed T
For S3P1 attempts to get air OS? What of S3P2? Same?

NOTE: Left off (in final edit) at Skorpius. How fun.

Only as much as my player ability allows. This one is easy for me.

I would have to try for myself to see the timing. SpeedMartyr has impeccable timing (as I've stated those speed runners are of a different breed), evading through Zeus' thunderclaps consistently.

since I returned to finish up with GoW:A

I should start with that in June (I just want to get it over with). Let's see: NUR+ would be first. Then PAIN+. If I complete that, then a custom run-sub weapons only (if possible).

What of S3P2? Same?

Same thing. Well actually I should elaborate:

3-hit string

Evade on 2nd hit and Athena's wrath

Lying state

T spam until launch.

Air escape followed by lightning stomp

Jump over and repeat launcher spam.

P2 is the same except he starts to use his charge attack more frequently, so I have to block and then repeat. That, and obviously stopping him from getting heals.

>try for yourself
If I can manage, I'm sure you can. Skill isn't my strong suit.

>June for GoW:
Summer Suffering, is it?

>sub-weapon only
World Weapons, eh? Recall bare-hands mostly count as this. Shield will dominate. Club is good. Sword is meh. Javelin and Sling are dog shit. Shield only evens out with Club when you take away the Blades extensions from it (that are unique to it *Club has an extension off BoC, but those moves are normals of a forbidden tool...*). Without Shield Valor and (more importantly) Shield Plume, you lose a ton of the value. Not sure if you consider dumps to be part of the Blades or as their own thing (through rage). You might want to keep all the tools you can to help here.

Spells aren't much, but they're something extra to work with. Dumps would really help in places. Grabs obviously (more so with Tether) come from the Blades, but I'm sure you don't want to lose the option (nor limit yourself to doing them close enough to getting the hug animation of OS while denying yourself OH entirely). This going to be NUR+ or do you imagine enough problems without that? Even NER could be pushing it since magic is so lackluster (four uses of meh is still not much of a boon regarding MAX *MIN being just the one cast*).

Obviously an Item/Relic (I forget what they were) like OSoO is of huge importance (less so in certain encounters where it is designed to get nerfed *or if it bugs out*). Less so AoU. Sadly, EoT appears too late to get all the use it could have had (for AoE knockback regularly on-demand).

>Athena's Wrath
wat

>T spam in the name of the Lord
I see.

>he resists
Try, try again.

>stop the heals
Slapping the taste from his mouth as he does so or letting him get to the heart (without clones) just to beat him off (lewd) and try for air OS or what? Then again, I'll be seeing for myself before much longer (video has been out). I should probably just blow through the bug and get on with the rest so I can do my testing. Save messing about for later. Don't want to waste too much time on this loathed encounter right now. Also, work day, so I probably won't play much if at all.

Forgot to mention that attacks from the cyclops do nothing to his fellows in terms of DMG unless they are halved. Might be the case this state opens them up to friendly fire from all sources. Would have to test that. Even the fucker running over them kill them instantly. I was planning on halving the horde (as they infinitely respawn) to mostly make the fight 1v1 to chip it down for mount and use on Cronos,but instead had to resort to t0/t3 control, kiting and baiting. Annoying.

Briefly dabbled in Skorp. First thing that happened was going in for a Spawn grab, but Kratos was lifted off the ground during it by the claws of the boss (interrupting and confusing me) before I got slapped by Spawns (dead). Second thing was the tail slam getting evaded by gliding only to be flung off the map. Don't remember that RO option. Thought only 'breath' did that. Forgot how clumsy the targeting could be (aside from the known issues with the fight like getting grabbed out of i-frames by his grab). Been seeing a fair bit of Ascension in GoWIII (Jason taking over) in things like being attacked as I came out of grabs (not just at HCB).

Edit: moved comment to GoW Ascension topic.

Figured it would be related to that. I ended up getting food poisoning, so I had to relax. Prior to that it was just work (and assisting other runners) keeping me from finishing up the light testing run (prior to going over your final vid in this series).

Hope all is well. We will continue at that topic. Once I'm ready I'll start a NUR+. Should begin challenge runs by the end of next week (maybe earlier).

>all is well
I seem to be better able to digest food. Not as pained, exhausted, etc. by nourishment.

>will start NUR+ and beyond
Hopefully with your own topic. Keep that focus pure.

>by end of next week for the Odyssey
You're in for it, friend.

Even with cheats to dabble with, Skorpius remains fucking retarded.  I actually got forced through the floor of the arena while messing with RoS Cestus Bug on him (he landed on me for RoO).  I've now seen three legs break without him collapsing, so that's new.  Got forced through the map before I could test the fourth.  I-frames on Nemean Roar spam aren't so hot.  Nemesis Rage with a leg uncovered proves quite reliable on his right, but somehow only staggers on the first direct hit for the left.  Somehow I'm not nearly as capable with using uncovered leg strats as I used to be, which annoys me.  Still wish I had a clear idea of how the Onyx legs truly work.  Guess BoO makes you immune to the grab (seemingly not even taking the tip DMG).

Seems like too many targets at once can overload a 'normal' hit into NOT landing.  AoE attacks don't seem to have that problem, but if you ever felt like you definitely hit a crowd yet they swam through the attack clean this could be why.  Another problem highlighted by this fight.  Who could have seen it coming?  Explains why crowd control is harder than it ought to be.  This drastically increased the difficulty of chipping away with non-AoE attacks (Cestus heavy string being all AoEs is what makes it so potent here).  Not even sure Skorp is taking collisions (aside from maybe wall collisions) when I do s6 to send the group into him.  In theory sending 1 spawn (of the many) into him should be either 1 (pure wall), 10 (pure knockback) or 11 (wall and knockback).  With six or so, the potential climbs to 66.  I feel like it would be quite difficult to test this without Wulf's tools.

If wanting to do something like VH Apollo PAIN+ BoA (Chalice or not) Skorpius for bonus credit you would have to just accept that your normals are not going to land like they should in most cases and plan around that, which pretty well forces you to stick with TR, air TR, t0 and t3.  It just seems like you are pushing your luck even to do t0 on the group into 's,t,t,t' in the hopes of a mass collision (compared to landing 2.25DMG t0 over and over *hopefully on him, too*).  It isn't like hits from the Spawns tickle and merely take life without much if any stagger.  They fuck you up (and recovery is pathetic).

Nemesis Rage doesn't seem able to target the rearmost legs at all (known to be glitchy).  RoS Cestus Bug doesn't seem to work on the AoE/projectile attacks (not surprising).  Okay, now it seems like Nemesis Rage even landing on the right's uncovered legs doesn't work for staggers.  This fight is full of shit.  To make things vastly worse, certain moves don't even HIT face phase as the hurtbox on the boss is low and shielded by his body collision, so you need to be low to the ground to land strikes.  Want to try air RotF or air CoC to keep above the danger?  Eat shit for life, kid.  It doesn't work at all.  You won't land a single hit without being near the ground.  A general problem with the Monster Truck is hitboxes bigger than his body allowing for early strikes.

A rage flare-up forced the boss out of place such that I was able to run around behind him.  Useless, but worth noting as I've never once seen that happen.  Also, the hurtbox is even worse than I thought for his face as many ground attacks are often not landing on him, too (might be aggravated by the 'overload' thing I was talking about, but even AoE types don't always seem to land *could be that Cestus is benefiting from bouncing the Spawns with t1 or t2 before the other heavy lands on JUST the boss so there is no conflict with too many things hit at once*).  The idea of beating it for bonus credit becomes more laughable as this testing goes on.  Real shame about the spawns likely being truly infinite rather than just a huge number (sub-1K, but big) in a spawn pool to work through (giving some way to eliminate that issue entirely).

Aaaaand fell through the map again while RoS was active (this time during the double snip).  I must have done ten cycles of the face and didn't beat S1P2.  That was with cheats to more easily get through the legs just for the purpose of reaching the the face again.  I sort of wonder if there isn't actually some HP recovery going on behind the scenes (makes me wish I had Wulf's tools once again).  If you miss the dizzy or fail the mini-game, it seems to heal about half the face phase worth of HP.  I imagine it does NOT cap itself to that.  I'd dare suggest that if you aren't dealing MORE than half of face phase in dps per go you might NEVER actually outpace him.  That is to say beating on the face without reaching the "O" for it to recover from might STILL enjoy an HP recovery, just not a full one.  IF that is so, this is actually impossible (numbers don't allow for it at all).

What the Hell?  I tested lvl1 Nemesis Rage to see how many direct shots (hitting it so even if the arcs and follow-up shocks don't, the start would) it would take to beat him post recovery and it was ~21.  Getting to around ~20 and trying for the finish took the full amount.  He recovered absolutely everything for some reason.  Not a partial amount as has been demonstrated by OG Kratos (I'd even tested it with Cestus doing its best only to fall short and doing another cycle to finish the job *it is a thing*).  Can't beat his grab with RoS activation.  Now there are times where he falls wrong and his hurtbox is a bit off (even Cestus heavies can miss at point blank).  Even saw him just give up and lay forever (never able to get him to dizzy).  Something is fishy (not just floating on invisible collision at different points in the arena, either).

Tested his full face phase and it was too much for NR spam to do.  I have a theory now.  I opt out of doing ANY DMG during the first drop of S1P2 and just attack wildly with Cestus heavies as if I had been going hard before.  What do you know?  IF he isn't finished (no matter the situation), he gets a new MAX total (taking away or regaining HP like a Cursed Remains in GoWII).  If you lack the dps to deplete the second amount you will absolutely NEVER beat him.  Ever.  Enough of this.  I'm calling it here.  This pretty well settles the matter of what is or is not possible.  This (VH Apollo PAIN+ BoA) won't work as even with all your hits landing on his smaller total you cannot do enough damage before running out of time (endless loop).  Sorry for the wait Zaser, but it was really bothering me.  I could put some other testing matters on hold, but I wanted to know what the real situation was here.

I'm thinking the recovered HP total is his lesser S2P2 amount.  Any time after the first drop (with forced visual cue) will be the S2 amount rather than the (probably doubled) S1 amount.  If you can't do S2P2 in one-go, you cannot do this at all.  That's how this dps race goes.  So OG Kratos did well to have just enough for S2P2, but all his attacking during S1P2's first drop meant nothing at all.  You can just sit that out and it works exactly the same as going to town.  Meaningless.  Just tacking on charges against Jason and the dipshit from the dev diary talking about how well tested this boss in particular was.  In fact, I'm looking that shit up right now.  *checks*  I don't know if I've been misremembering Brian Yu's talk of making his attack cues recognizable, but I can't find the prick who said Skorpius was well tested (and would be great).  Whatever.  I'll leave it at this for now.

EDIT

Caverns Box 6.  For BoA, it is a tall order to single out Gorgons for RO to kill them off first where BoE has CG to help with that (prior to probably taking out the Minotaurs and then just handling a bunch of Sentinels).  A bit RNG heavy to get a start where you can reasonably cast out the first snek, but getting the other in the thick of things is a real struggle.  Probably not worth focusing on with BoA.  You'll have to work with her.  Not exactly hard set-up PP glitch for the bulls (T from corners is a cheap way).  Could just use the likes of Rush (knockback) to RO.

Shield boys are annoying, so busting Sentinels can take the level of pressure down.  They won't get petrified with the shield out, but with it gone you can work the PP glitch.  Maybe exploit their taunt with shields to keep the spear users (able to poke corners) away as the unshielded gather (impotently).  Could attack the latter, but maybe just leap over and rush the former.  Whatever.  I don't know that I'd recommend taking out a shield and then just going for a kill to slowly take the count down so much as plain wiping away shields and going for mass kills (PP glitch or even infinite air OS into BR *aside from RO options*).  With a big enough group, I have seen the mob push Sentinels (without shields) up on the corner with me (easy RO there).

For VH Apollo PAIN+ BoA w/ Chalice the best I could come up with was to T into OH the gorgon at the start to just get her away (not for RO).  It was too troublesome to deal with the targeting with lots of high priority lads oftentimes, so I would limit CG poking to being truly singled out (often favoring s1 or s2 *s3 is risky*).  Rush the first two Sentinels to take away the shield, bring the group to a corner, bait a Stare (don't want her super close) and t0 to PP glitch at least the grunts.  Repeat for the next spawn leaving two bulls.  Just bait them to rush away from the others and time for Rush to land as they start another attack while near the edge (for RO).  With just the snek, easy enough to T into OH her for RO. This spawns another along with a Sentinel in each corner (rush them down while they are apart to de-shield or at least get two to set-up PP glitch before going for another dose/sample).  PP glitch after deshielding.  1v1 snek to finish the fight.

Labyrinth Box 1.  With NBR+ you just run away more.  BoA changes little.  With NGR+, you aren't permitted to OS kill the Tallies, so you just keep their HP very close (for two DMG kills).  The trouble is beating the Mongrel with this dps before being swarmed by Hounds.  Can bait the rush before making it whiff into 's,t,t,t' over and over (though a word of caution being to watch for signs of it leaping out of the rear slaps before committing to t3 *don't recall that being a thing before*).  At least, that would be the idea if we had the dps.  We do not.  With the statues, you can't hide on the ledges from their attacks (mostly true for the big dog, too).  If their HP gets too far out of sync, you will want to bait them apart (charges) with one off-screen and the other on-screen while working the foreground (get cornered while sticking to the front and you'll get a lot of private time *keep setting this up as needed*).  With the Mongrel, it really doesn't matter too much.

I'd advise exploiting jumps to get out of hound grab attempts and gliding (as allowed) if not quick rolling with the aim to get the major grunt away and off-screen.  With BoE, you would just have to settle for getting on the ledge, climbing up (letting them aggro) and dropping into ledge hang until they calm before side-switching with attempts to go for t0 on the group (chipping them down).  With BoA you can do better thanks to air TR.  Ledge hang, jump into ledge hang until you hear the rally (so they will come to you).  Leap from ledge hang into air TR to catch them before trying for 's,t,t,s' prior to another set-up.  End result is an isolated Mongrel with normal handling (beaten to death rather than OS kill, mind you).  P1 would be x2 Talos (sync kill).  P2 would be killing off Rabid Hounds before the Cerberus Mongrel.  P3 would be the x2 Talos revengeance.  This is enough tedium to make you want to die (between P1 and P3).

Box 4 is just going to be using the spikes.  As for the rules with having sirens exposed to spike use not sure.  Thought they just needed to attack while in the spikes or get knocked down or some shit, but they shrugged it all off this time, which just leaves the normal punishment.  For a NGR+ version of this that is terrible (no air OS option, obviously).  Seems like launching into juggling to chip down just one to death so the harpy will appear without the insta-kill option working (as it can).  With a bug, it isn't hard to skip the second harpy ride (get on the background ledge and leap before the spikes come up to fall to safety *clearing the spikes*).  If you just stand in the center of the spike floor, you can shrug them all off (at least for the first floor).  Killing all the enemies and blocking in place helps with that against he harpy.  Alternatively, take a hit as the spikes come up (good luck with that *or surviving it with Chalice taking you to nothing*).  Doesn't matter as you are meant to do the grab (just harder with BoA if the harpy wants to play keepaway).  Exploiting allowed me to see two harpies alive before departing.  I'm sure AKheon would be thrilled about the pacifist strats advancing.

Box 5 in BoA PAIN+ is the same as usual (PP set-ups or allow foes to petrify then shatter them before taking out the sneks with shattering until left with a single one you can juggle or just reverse spam *OS kill if available for use on the others is a free GR*).  With NGR+, you still want the shatters, but when down to sneks you lose the option to reverse (can't OS kill it, either).  Chip them with juggles or t0/t3 zoning.  If you aren't getting flashes, camera abuse for t3 spam to chip down the grunts until they're gone.  Could also just pace wall t1s (maybe 't,s') down at grunts, but the snek overhead hits pretty high (need to be way up the wall to avoid getting scraped by it).  Box 7 is the usual for the gauntlet.  NGR+ just means you get to be the sad boy with BR to help chip, air OS infinite for sirens (juggling instead), no CG to end burrows (waiting out instead), no OS into air OS (T into juggling instead) and sticking to wall collision (s6) lock on the isolated bulls.  Very tedious.  With the Guardians, shield breaks obviously, but you will likely not want to tolerate a potential DQ with Cestus, so killing them becomes tempting (just that you can't grapple).

Probably want to eliminate non-grunts before going after them, then only killing enough to set off a new spawn of non-grunts as you go.  Don't want too many foe types at once.  As with the previous siren encounter, intangibility becomes a factor (more so than the air state though still annoying for NGR+ to slap it down).  Getting a parry into a wall collision to open them up is horrid.  Good thing you don't HAVE to do that as a way to open them up.  Refer to earlier notes on this bug.  Ultra elongated encounter to be sure.  Wall locking bulls was as easy as I remember.  Intangibility was a slight annoyance.  Shields weren't that bad.  Avoiding grab was pretty easy, too.  The most obnoxious thing was probably sirens in the air state (especially multiple).  At least with BoA I had air CoC (air RotF too often ignored my input and just grabbed).  It helps.  With that it would have been a disgusting display of air lights in the hope it falls as ignoring it isn't much of an option when it aggros to you. The second most annoying thing is burrowing when they choose not to come out (even had one glitch into a T-posing variant where it wouldn't come out without CG *which would end an attempt*).  Gross.

HCB with the usual wouldn't be much (BoA won't change that).  Doing it with OS is slightly more challenging (with x3 OS being the ideal to just clear out goats to isolate the pretend boss).  A NGR+ version of this is much more annoying as safely juggling to chip down a Satyr is probably not the focus.  Might have to purely lame the whole affair out until HCB dies using barrier abuse into t3 over and over and over (before juggle chip on an isolated faun).  Not sure why I was having trouble getting multiple OS in a row (annoying).  If pushing for a bit more aggression (probably unwise), 's,t,t' (waiting on the ender to see if he'll do a stomp) can be used though it gets hard to see and react to the HCWs while all this is going on.  Like a lot of the end of a NGR+, you just have to be patient (or you'll probably get yourself killed).

Seems entering and exiting portals creates checkpoints.  It will remember each kill, but not if an enemy had Onyx broken or not (fixes it).  Won't recall positions, so they go where they ought to be.  Pretty sure I saw a siren get RO only to fly her ass back up in the air state and blast me.  Satyrs don't know how to handle wall strats (sometimes blocking, but that's it).  Still best to use RO, but I the Sentinels really didn't want to leave us alone, so I had to use 's,t' to send them over (after busting the shields) before I could get alone time.  Now for Zeus.

S1P1/S1P2 both take a really long time if treating it like VH PAIN+ NGR+ BoA. Small hops suffice (to clear him) after blocking the second of his 3-hit strong. Air block strats (rather than parry or evade) are known for the dive. Not much to this. LOTS of 's,t,t,t'. Obviously only pulling the trigger when safe. S2 is the usual with keep away or blocking in his face to prevent UB (time this out). Now for the point of all this, but first S3P1. If treating it like S1, it would just be a big long drag. At least he doesn't have clones yet. Before enduring that situation, let's do VH PAIN+ BoA normally (going for air OS in one go and just trying to slap him out of charges in the other).

As expected, S3P1 is just the same as S1 with NGR+ considered. Where just PAIN+ is concerned, the issue with BoA is that none of its launchers work for no good reason and the bounces that do work (not so much t0 and t3 when he is grounded as they will push him away) are double hits, which is a problem for S3P2 (triggering clones). In theory, just landing the second hit of either t1 for the bounce should avoid this, but good luck with that. Can't capitalize off the knockbacks, obviously. One bounce that IS a single hit (and shouldn't be) is...Athena's Wrath. And it can actually lead to air OS, but the spacing and timing is tight. Do not try to challenge his attacks with it so much as landing it in recovery (as with when baited to do his 3-hit ender). Rough.

With S3P2, as you would expect, the clones are not immune in the same way he is. ...RNG bullshit. I love it. Reminds me of the old notes I left for BoA fights here. Even a single hit like T can provoke clones. Ones you do that, he can escape air OS attempts all damn day (and drop more clones). Even AW can provoke it at that point (thanks to the air OS). You have to avoid ever causing a single clone more than the forced case or you're open to this problem, but I couldn't outpace his recovery without taking the risk with t0, t1 and T. Not very clear what works, but it is definitely a pain in the ass to see him give it up like this. Unless you're getting two grabs per cycle while wailing as hard as you can on him during charges (not enough to stop him, but mitigate some recovery) you won't make progress towards the finish. Pretty rough. Had an early victory, but all future attempts (while trying to speed things up) went poorly (just stagnating until he sent an army at me). I'll see your video before long, but I'm going out on a limb even without dabbling to say you cannot possibly beat him in a NGR+ version of this as he'll just keep charging to recover HP and you cannot outpace this (so the fight would just go on forever *until you die*).

NG+ (default Kratos) VH PAIN+ BoE (BoA dabbling here and there, maybe) file started up for some continued testing.  I'll probably leave a save before some key bits that still have testing I want to do (but may not feel like doing just yet).  The one that comes to mind right now is Hades S4 (Tug-of-War).  Use the bow to approximate his HP before testing light and heavy slaps to get an idea of what their DMG might be (at least relative to each other).  Bit of a pain in the ass still as it isn't like I can whiff parts of the string to just land the one I want to test.  Or maybe the break-out allows for this.  I forget.

Hippocampus (Leviathan) E1 S2.  Safe spot in center-front (as usual).  Notes say ceiling combat favors lights (5, 5, 10 in about the same time as using just the 5 *even with spinning to land a double hit or even a supposed triple*).  Sadly, this will be the same as usual (just mashing square *light spam prevails*).  The only thing worth noting here is that it is not quite 100% safe. The spot in question is right by the boss.  There is a root 'hanging' and laying across the dirt we're clinging to.  If you line up the elbow of Kratos with the tip you'll quickly find the approximate spot.  If you get a feel, the idea is to attack wildly until you see him attacking.  While all the way safe, he will only use the attack covering our right which WILL hit you if you are attacking at the time.  Just inch over a bit before attacking and you will strike while he whiffs.  You then go back to attacking wildly (possibly aiming to have lights move you back into that position).  If he uses the left, you're too far over so just inch back into place.  Minimal movement sort of deal.  None if you just pace attacks a little.  A retest had a placement where I was attacking while not harmed, but it is probably very precise.

Hippo S2.  Wall strikes had a bit more to them (where is my Hip S5 encounter with a rope battle, SSM *jokes aside, should have had some platforming where the thing is interfering to spice up the tutorial and better prepare for things to come...or rather what should be coming, but actually isn't really like the things being taught already*).  I can't interrupt this foe (save for finishing it off), so 's,t' (paced gaps as a string cancel) isn't my best bet here.  I can move to my target, so no need to just spam t1 (paced).  The best bet for dps when trying to keep mobile would be 't,t' (also mobile).  Maybe I should just focus on t1 until ready to clear out (pulling the trigger on the second heavy directed to the side).  Testing makes it feel a little questionable to do this as it is easy to get caught while pacing versus reacting and punishing quickly between.  Harder to always be on the offensive to rush things.  Maybe it is fine to just stick with the paced heavy starter and I'm being impatient.  DPS was never really my strong suit anyway.

Guide suggests breakdown is 100/150/150/200.  Forgot they had this stuff.  I've seen it be wrong, but it seems about right with S1 testing.  Giving them Good Faith, then I with the just s1 and s2 (not s3 as it deals double damage), the wall attacks should take 40 hits.  Yep.  Numbers add up.  If sticking just to t1 it would take 20 applications to advance S3.  It does.  More than that, I might have a position acting as as sweet spot to attack from.  *tests*  No, not quite.  If it baits the stomps they whiff, but if it uses breath then you don't get free hits.  Still, it makes it better to work the center (by the same root as before *now more consistently able to ride it on the ceiling for free attacking*).

I was playing a bit fast and loose, but I think even early hits for S3 count.  Just have to mind the reversed controls and not leap too early (else you can self-RO).  Working the center with controlled heavy string for movement was quite doable (with a bit of practice it should feel more natural *not as hard to trying to movement cancel attacks for speed running*).  Should probably mention smaller openings where you want to move while still attacking might be more for 's,t,t' (s1 has quicker start-up and chains into mobile heavies).  This rather than just dodging.  On to the next.  E2 is 195 and 110HP supposedly.  Nothing much more to share.  Just passing through (amusingly they sometimes give 'failure' damage and proper orb amounts).  Poseidon is just listed as 230 without giving the splits.  Nothing for claws in S1 or S3.  Do they mean JUST S2 is that total or the whole thing?  What a bother.

Before that, E2...I thought the spot I'd been seeing people use was merely limiting the boss but not a full sweet spot.  None of his attacks could hit me and most of 's,t,t,t' can hit him (all if you reposition, but you have to take care not to expose yourself).  Didn't see him do other things, but that could just be RNG at work.  For the wall right before Poseidon, I went with an upward quick leap into 't1...t1...upward t,t,t' to kill them all quickly.  Now to square slap legs to estimate HP.  Lovely.  So it took 47 for both S1 legs.  Here that is just over 70DMG.  70 each would make a total of 140 to advance.  Taken from the total (if that is the case), you're left with 90HP.  That's with both S2 and S3 remaining.  Doubt that adds up.

This said, I should expand a little on cheese strats.  Retested, so the deal is this.  When working the left, you should favor the foreground (back-left) if not baiting rightside attacks as openings.  From that spot, the ONLY attack that can hit at all is his Leftside ONLY PR.  It cannot be beaten just with a double jump at the back wall, but adding a glide towards the foreground does the trick (maybe just barely moves us out of the arena hitbox).  Alternatively, move out of the way, use an i-frame attack or negate with a timed evade (tricking it).  With our reach (using BoA), it isn't hard to attack him while he's attacking us, which is nice.  On the right, it is a little different.  His claw CAN hit the other corner.  The attack lingers, so you can't just i-frame through all of it (if I remember right).  Best to clear out to the halfway point (our reach isn't good enough to punish while it is out, but you can dial-up a punish to land as it withdraws *just don't get shaved coming in*).  The Rightside ONLY PR in this corner can be beaten just by double jumping (gliding is unnecessary) at the foreground.  Same idea as the other side for the most part.

154 hits for "O".  So the 230HP was for JUST S2.  If you fail the mini-game of S2, he recovers to ~34 hits worth, so say 50HP.  I used this lower HP to test how many cycles of air CoC spamming versus heavy string (since they all hit if lined up with a root one-third the way up the wall).  The former took just over 2 cycles (maybe if done slightly better it would just barely be two).  The latter easily one-rounded this total.  It is vastly better as a punish to his big floor stab versus our other options.  While you have to be careful if using R1 to slide down the wall (a bit slow), you can even backward leap off this wall (easier to control with gliding).  Definitely worth working into your toolset if RNG ever gives you lemons by drawing that attack.  The multi-stab's psuedo-sweet spot has already been talked about (his left hip).  To an extent it works against the punch (if you just move slightly to our left the thing whiffs).  Not so much the slab (which is the same as his anti-wall attack).  A pity the wall punishment only really lands well when he does the big stab (and you get punished by the multi-stab pretty hard if you try it).

Heavy wall strings momentum (again) can make it move you in unintended ways against uneven surfaces, so I don't know how reliable it would be.  In theory, you can get x3 't,t,t' (three reps).  That would be 67.5DMG if ALL hit.  I'd expect some whiffs even with good placement.  A more consistent punish is just paced t1 (though 't,t' can be good, too *less throwing of Kratos around*).  Time enough for 5 to land for 37.5DMG.  Much better than 0 (just waiting *though those boys rush to the hip about as soon as they can shy of gliding into his weapon as it ceases to be an attack earlier than it looks*) or what would be ~30 (if all hits land in a double dose of x2 CoC *itself not too likely*).  The difference seems pretty clear to me.  There is plenty of time to leap down and glide into place before he starts an attack with 5, but maybe downgrade to 4 (dropping it down to 30DMG) and get in place for the normal hip-hugging if amending the punish (also accounts for maybe getting positioned a bit slow this way).  Had enough time to get in 2 t3 from downtown (safe range).  That would be 18 as a punish.  Even if you manage three, that's just 27.  Okay, but not all you could be doing.  Seems like the point of impaling the floor up until the attack ceases to be real (you can move into/through it) is ~5s.

34 hits for S3 claws.  50HP each (100 total).  Duly noted.  The situation is the same as S1 except you don't need to glide even on the leftside this time.  Also, PR patterns were changed (R-L and B-M-F *no L-R to F-M-B patterns*).  That's all I have time for before doing evaluations.  I'll leave off here for now (after doing the BoE cutscene and saving, anyway).