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Ninja gaiden general discussion

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151Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:13 pm

KSubzero1000

KSubzero1000
C-Rank
It's been a while since the little I played of 3 / RE so I won't pretend to be an expert on that one, but the Steel on Bone nonsense and broken Ninpo completely put me off the game, to say nothing of the garbage enemy design (and don't get me started on the campaign design with the climbing sections and super-serious cutscenes and whatnot).

It's always a bit of a shock to the system for me to hear fellow action game fans have anything positive to say about this game.

...Please don't tell me you consider RE's combat to be superior to NGB's? Neutral

152Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:42 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
NGB is the best full game, but its combat system is by far the weakest in the series imo. It has a ton of little attentions to detail and little matter of facts like unique block properties per weapon, but overal the combat is very simple. Beautiful in its simplicity, but simple (note, I don't mean simple in a bad way). It also is just one tightly nit whole, every enemy is built for this game and its weapons, which shows (and which again Sigma shows, by removing a ton of them and making a worse game because of it). NGII still has that balance of enemies designed around the game they inhabit, but it is just unfinished at times.

Razor's Edge is the equivalent of a kitchen sink smashed into a gamingstudio. The raw combat system, cicada, the bloody rage mechanic - it's the best combat system they've made imo. The downside being that everything around it just isn't built with it in mind. The enemies are like visitors from another game. The bosses don't work in tangent with the mechanics at all. Tons of balance issues, glitches, dull arenas, ugly music etc.
But yeah, Ryu's moveset and abilities, purely that, when it aligns and you've got a good fight on your hands, NG3:RE is top dog. There's so much creativity possible, while keeping an active flow of combat, just insanely good.

That's not really a rare statement either, most NG players I know that played all games on high enough level tend to agree NG3:RE has the best combat system, but just lacking in everything else. I used to hate the game but when I saw that shift in love, especially from players like Devilz and ShowR, I gave it another chance and it did not disappoint.

Regarding Steel on Bone, the original version was ass. What they did with RE was pretty smart, as it gave players a good OHKO option against foes, on the fly ability to heal, and it was something that allowed for bigger fights as well. I still feel the game would be better without it as it promotes a pretty defensive playstyle, but if you adapt the NGII playstyle and only do SoB after a Cicada, it is pure magic.

Not going to comment on story and the kunai, the story was always nonsensical super serious rubbish with some tits thrown in. The only thing cool about it was Ryu imo and the fantastic cutscenes in NGB by that studio whose name I keep forgetting. Kunai climbing was nearly completely removed. There's only like 3-4 sections of it left and they play at 300% original speed, harmless addition in NG3:RE (shit in NG3 though).

Don't take this the wrong way, but NG3:RE is really good but it, of all the games in the series, is only good if you put in the effort. Like The Evil Within you really got to sink your teeth into it, and especially for this game make some custom rules for yourself. Because if you don't hold back...well yeah. Then it's not NG3:RE. It's NG360:RE: https://youtu.be/yH2ti7upQ9o

I'm working on my article on NG3:RE currently, will have a lot more details but yeah I do consider it to have the best combat system in the series, perhaps in the genre; at least at its core. Just a shame that everything else is completely out of wack and the balance (of both enemies and you) is ripe with issues thanks to its 6 month dev time. It really could've been the best in the series had it been a fully fledged game. Which is why I still have faith in the team to make a good NG4.

If I had to rank them, I'd probably be something like this:

Combat System: NG3:RE > NGII > NGB > NGS > NGS2 > NG3

Complete package: NGB >>>>> NGS > NGII > NGS2 > NG3:RE > NG3


Personal preference: NGII > NGB > NG3:RE > NGS2 > NGS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NG3

https://stinger.actieforum.com

153Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:45 pm

RedShot


C-Rank
I'm liking Sigma 2 less and less after I've seen some comparisons with NG2. It doesn't have a "soul", it's just a bad mix of Sigma 1 and NG2. It's still a good action game, but it's not at the top.

154Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:53 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
This one of Chapter 11 is the most convinsing one to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A

That said, my biggest gripe is that NGS2 doesn't push you to use the intended mechanics and gameplay as much. Especially its Master Ninja Mode promotes a more docile playstyle imo.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

155Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:08 pm

KSubzero1000

KSubzero1000
C-Rank
I promise this is all in good fun, but how exactly am I supposed to make sense of this:

@Royta/Raeng wrote:NGB's [...] combat system is by far the weakest in the series imo.
@Royta/Raeng wrote:
Combat System: NG3:RE > NGII > NGB > NGS > NGS2 > NG3

??? Laughing


In all seriousness, thanks for the thoughtful answer. I bounced off of both NG3 and RE pretty harshly (not unlike TEW, as you already alluded to), although it's good to know the combat can be so rewarding for those willing to put the effort in. I've considered giving it another chance for a few years but I could never bring myself to.

And yeah, you're right. NGB is indeed "beautiful in its simplicity". I'll take super-refined but comparatively simple gameplay loops over hyper-complex but glitchy and unbalanced ones any day. But there's definitely something to be said about the sheer creative potential and possibility spaces of the latter.

Looking at my personal favorites and the kind of games I tend to brush aside, I suppose polish and balance are probably even more important to me than I thought. Interesting to think about.


But for anyone looking to get into the series for the first time or to re-acquaint themselves with it after a long break, I would say that NGB is probably the best point of entry despite its limitations. Just to make sure they really learn the fundamentals and have a big meaty polished game to dive into.

156Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:42 pm

Infinity_Divide

Infinity_Divide
A-Rank
Interesting to read! I knew RE was held in high regard but I didn’t know quite to that level. So a lot of the praise for RE comes more from its moveset and tools right? Would also be curious to hear why NGB is considered more simple(still trying to learn this behemoth of a series). 

Separating the list by combat and complete package is a good idea. When I see action game tier lists or whatever, it’s hard to tell if the creator means combat tiers or the ranking for the games as a whole. I know when GamingBrit did his he meant the whole game, but I think some other more mechanically driven players would just rank the games by their combat. I know that if I had to rank games in the genre it would be quite different under these two conditions.

157Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:40 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Hhahaha! Yeah I originally typed that list without taking the Sigmas into consideration, since I tend to ignore them sort of. Added them in at the last minute. I consider NGB, NGII and NG3RE the 'main titles', and out of those I'd say NGB has the least greatest combat system.

> bounced off NG3
No shame in that, did the same. NG3 really crushed any hopes I had for the series at the time and the glitched mess of NG3:RE didn't inspire hope at first. If I alluded to starting with this game, please disregard that, I'd say it's only for purists. Kind of like NG2004, play it once you're more familiar with the games. NGB is a good game to get started with especially since it's a tad slower and thus allows you to familiarize yourself more with the game's movement mechanics which are the same in all three games.

> polish and balance are important to you
And that's very understandable, I think a ton of people would side by that. Personally I tend to stear more towards the yanky games. Though they lack polish, it is often those games that have the weird ideas that are interesting to witness for me. It's why I love MGR:R so much, but also funky games like Alpha Protocol which is practically in its alpha-state haha.

> NGB more simple
There are a lot less combat options for one, attacks string together less easily, the game is generally a lot slower, less enemies on screen and it lacks the delimb system, making it less chaotic and 'tacitical' on the fly thinking and more "hit enemy until dead". NGB is gaming-chess though, it's brilliant. NGII and NG3:RE is like playing chess while the board is on fire, with 0,1 seconds per turn being allowed while nukes are flying around.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

158Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:54 pm

Infinity_Divide

Infinity_Divide
A-Rank
>movement mechanics the same in all three games

I figured they had some big differences in them, this is good to know.

Would you consider the knowledge from NGB directly transferable to NG2? Obviously NG2 has more going on but it can be seen as the same foundation right?

Also, sort of random but I was watching some of your vids and saw some guy go off in the comments and say you’ve never actually played NGS. Had a good laugh.

159Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:29 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
> movement mechanics
There are minor differences like dodge length and animations, but generally speaking it is the same. For instance you can re-direct a jump after a dodge by pressing a direciton + jump at the same time, and you can use this to chain forward jumps (fast than dodge>jump). All that is in all games, same with stuff like guard-resetting and shuriken canceling.

> knowledge transfer
You'll have a leg up by understanding how movement works for sure, but the playstyles are very different so that might actually handicap you.


> that one guy
Too many haha, there's always someone who is angry or insulted by someone playing a game. I used to try to talk to these people, but honestly after starting Stinger I realized you just can't please everybody. If there's a good civil discussion to be had I'm always down, but I'm tired of Behemothblade look a likes. Remember I once had a user, think he was called Raiden or something, go bonkers on me. Only to later find him in the comments of a Ninja Gaiden video complaining about how unfair the series was and how much he hated it and couldn't even beat it on Easy. Then why yell at me? Irony man.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

160Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:50 am

Infinity_Divide

Infinity_Divide
A-Rank
>might actually handicap you

Oh great haha. Wouldn’t expect anything else of this series.

>Raiden something 

That’s the guy I was talking about actually haha. Really bizarre string of comments. 

Well, I think I’m going finish up a couple games I’m still working on and then make a final decision on how to tackle this series. I’m just worried I’ll suck too much to beat MN on NG2.

161Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:55 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
First run on Master Ninja in NG2 is just beating it, no holds barred. My first time doing that difficulty I abused OLUTs, ran back after every fight to save, abused every overpowered trick in the book etc. Didn't get better until later.

Wish we lived closer, would love to sit on the couch and just enjoy watching someone learn the game.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

162Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:21 pm

Infinity_Divide

Infinity_Divide
A-Rank
So no shame in using every last healing item? silent


That would be awesome! It seems like everyone here is from a different country though haha. Could use a good real-time NG coach.

163Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:45 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Man I used so many healing items the first time through, it's unreal. Healing isn't as big a no-no in NG as it is in DMC. Especially on Master Ninja the games kind of assume you'll use them, Itagaki even mentioned them in some interviews. I think that's also why a lot of players find the series hard to get into, as it seems built around taking damage and healing with potions, both of which feel like 'stuff I don't want to do' for a lot of players.

Progress in NG(II) is mostly getting more confident and having to rely less and less on the game's 'oh crap' buttons like items, OLUT and Ninpo.

If you ever stream it, I'll be sure to hop on in haha!

https://stinger.actieforum.com

164Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:08 pm

Infinity_Divide

Infinity_Divide
A-Rank
Yeah I guess I’ve got so used to playing some games without taking damage that I think I should be able to do it in every game. Its strange though, I would feel like I’m really playing NG wrong it I take damage and have to heal, but with Vanquish I have no problem going into danger almost every battle, I view it as just part of the experience.

I think part of it is games that have healing items from a paused menu. Usually games that have this make me think “okay, this is just a last resort option, shouldn’t need it”. But here, NG2 is so brutal that it’s expected like you noted. Guess I have to try to break some habits!

165Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:18 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Once you break the habbit it feels a tad dirty at first, but you'll get through it. Note that you can do a no-healing run, but that's really something you have to work up to. That's not something you can just do off the bat (well, you can, but you won't have a good time). NGB is more made for no-damage, as it is far slower.

I now tend to take it at a 'per fight' basis. Some fights I've now mastered in NGII that I can realiably no-heal them, but some others I still need one or two.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

166Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:57 pm

hedfone

hedfone
A-Rank
An ebay copy of NGB has just landed in my mailbox. This is both exciting and frightening ha.

167Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:59 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
No way! Good stuff man! Have fun :)

https://stinger.actieforum.com

168Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Sun Jun 07, 2020 1:30 am

hedfone

hedfone
A-Rank
JTB has been posting a new MN walkthrough so it made me pull the trigger.
I am afraid this is like the last classic great action game I haven't played yet Sad, and CL.
Still looking for a CL copy.

169Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:28 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Enjoy it man and take your time! You know I'm always down to talk shop haha!

https://stinger.actieforum.com

170Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:25 pm

TheFirmament1

TheFirmament1
B-Rank
Ugh. Scythe fiends. I forgot about how much I hated those things...

Anyone remember how to deal with those guys? They tend to teleport a lot, and i-frame through your attacks.

171Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:58 am

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Incendiary Shurikens nail them to the cross. Otherwise you can use >YY with the Dragon Sword. Smoke Bombs confuse the hell out of them as well allowing you to charge an UT in their face or just >YY into fiendsealer them. Then of course there's wall-attacks. XYY with the nunchucks are good too.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

172Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:39 pm

TheFirmament1

TheFirmament1
B-Rank
I just ended up using a lot of wall attacks for scythe fiends, and cat fiends. Wall attacks in this game are so good.

173Ninja gaiden general discussion  - Page 4 Empty Re: Ninja gaiden general discussion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:06 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Oh absolutely. I liked how they were changed in NGII i.e. some being insanely high risk but high damage, while others are just i.frames with low damage. NGB's are a tad too good imo, also quite safe.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

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