Counter hits in action games

Lots of action games have weak points or critical hits (think Onimusha), but to my knowledge, very few action games have actual fighting game counter hits. I only know of Chaos Legion and God Hand. Note that I might start going overboard with CL stuff as I tend to do when talking about this game.

As you no doubt know, in a fighting game, interrupting an enemy attack at a specific point in its animation with your own results in various properties. An attack that didn't stun or launch, now does. There are tons of examples.

Also, any attack can be used to counter any attack with the right timing. Attack strength is irrelevant in this case.
Counter hits also do more damage than normal hit and are always accompanied by a different hit and sound effect.

CL and GH follow this criteria. Games like Onimusha and DMC (RG) don't 100%, though they have some elements of a true counter hit in the sense that they interrupt and require the same sort of timing, but you can't use any of Dante's attacks, it's RG only. In the Oni series, your attack doesn't even appear. You just go into issen.

These 'counter' in concept, but I'm speaking of the actual mechanic as seen in fighting games. However, if you know something I don't about these games or disagree, feel free to correct me.

So in CL, any of your attacks can be used to interrupt the enemy, though because it's an action game, not all attacks can be countered though these are very few, like certain boss attacks, a few attacks from regular enemies, and stuff like projectiles (though you can counter the shooter if you're close enough when they fire). Most enemies will have at least one attack with no counter for some reason. Some have more than one.

For the ones that don't have a counter hit, you can 'counter' those in the sense that you can respond and gain an advantage with iframes or whatever but again that isn't what we're talking about here. That's more a tactics thing.

When your attack connects, the enemy's attack will be cancelled and they'll go into a hard hit stun, varying from enemy to enemy, and depending on what move you used vs theirs.

In CL the results are, to a degree in the early game, influenced by your stats. So a low attack power counter on larger enemies won't stop them and you'll trade hits. This situation, even then, is rare. I think in early game, only this one tall, large alien looking thing has an attack you can counter, but can't stop. It's the attack where he puts his head down and runs at you. However, you can still avoid a trade by slashing just as he comes into range with the tip of Sieg's sword, then immediately roll cancelling the recovery to the side, avoiding the attack. You can even slash, then back dash to make space, then slash again and continue until he stops.

Anyway, aside from that aspect you won't find in fighters, the counter hit concept is exactly the same.

GH's counters follow the same, but is much closer to a fighting game. There are way more counter states, launchers, etc, than CL. This is obviously due to the fact that they are very different games. CL focusing on large amounts of enemies, while GH has much less, as well as the different camera angle that lends to smaller, more focused encounters so you can have counter hit launchers, sweeps, and stuff that wouldn't fit in CL's system. GH also has the high and low system with opens it up for far more hit variety and enemy states.

What are you thoughts on this?
Why do you think we don't see this system often?

My take on that second question is that usually action games have a lot of enemies and you can't really wait around for that one counter hit launcher, which makes perfect sense. Imagine if Dante couldn't launch an enemy unless he countered an attack. It just wouldn't work.

CL avoids this by not being a combo game, and having enemies that attack fairly aggressively, while GH has the more focused, almost 1v1 combat and camera and extremely aggressive enemies.

I think it is a system that can be used more often, if only because it opens up so many cool situations. That said it is hard to balance I reckon. If you have a counter-hit system you'll automatically promote a more 'defensive' playstyle to focus on counterhits, as the benefits are just too high. God Hand has this problem a little bit, but not too much since enemy agression is too high on LVLDIE. Still, something to keep in mind. Note that I do like God Hand's idea, giving moves secondary functions when used as a counter-hit (aka, HighStepKick being a launcher suddenly).

The system is also present in, of all games, Dark Souls. You can do counter hits to enemies which deals extra damage and stagger from what I recall. I'd have to ask SBK or GMG for details on this since I never went too deep into it, here's some data on it: http://darksouls.wikidot.com/counter

That said I feel that there's no reason not to have such a system in place. It opens up mechanics, depth, rewards timing and moveset knowledge. It doesn't always have to be a huge bonus, it can be just that you get extra experience-points or w/e, or a minor 10% damage boost for instance. But I think the mechanic is under-represented that's for sure.

In fighting games they are a huge risk though, counter hits mean enemies are in hit-stun longer so more combo options are available - but since you only have limited HP yourself getting counterhit is just as big a danger. This opens up 'meaty' situations and frame-traps, where you 'lure' your foe into a counterhit situation. Not sure how that would work in a game about ai-foes.

since enemy agression
Yeah I think enemy aggression is necessary.

The system is also present in, of all games, Dark Souls.
Wow, never knew this, probably because I only play bow. It says it can happen with arrows too, but I do my best to maintain distance so the situation doesnt come up as often as it would with melee weapons.

Not sure how that would work in a game about ai-foes.
I don't think trapping and luring can work on AI in this situation. It requires thinking and making a decision which you're only going to see vs human opponents. AI just comes straight at you and ignores everything else.

>My take on that second question is that usually action games have a lot of enemies and you can't really wait around for that one counter hit launcher, which makes perfect sense. Imagine if Dante couldn't launch an enemy unless he countered an attack. It just wouldn't work.

There's also the fact that it can get sort of hard to control enemy reactions, imagine that you have a move that stuns on hit but if it hits as a counter it launches the enemy, if you're landing this move at multiple enemies at once then you have this weird scenario where some are going to fly and some aren't, it's easy to lose control of where your enemies are going to end up specially if we're talking about something like ng2 mob density. Even on fighting games(specially anime ones) sometimes it's hard to react to a non-expected counter hit and follow up with the proper combo/pressure.

A recent game that I've seen feature a counter mechanic was Dead Cells https://deadcells.gamepedia.com/Mechanics#Breach, while not exactly deep in regards of different properties in counter hits(it's a general stun no matter which weapon or move you use), it complements the game's fast paced and aggressive nature by allowing you to basically never back down and just use the "offense is the best defense" tactic throughout the whole game.

Nice points.

There's also the fact that it can get sort of hard to control enemy reactions, imagine that you have a move that stuns on hit but if it hits as a counter it launches the enemy, if you're landing this move at multiple enemies at once then you have this weird scenario where some are going to fly and some aren't, it's easy to lose control of where your enemies are going to end up specially if we're talking about something like ng2 mob density.
This happens in GH and CL, though I never felt it's an issue in these games. Maybe that's due to the how the rest of the mechanics work.

Like in this video, you see the player using counters to utterly control some of the nastiest groups in the game. You'll notice that at times the player will connect with a counter launcher but nearby enemies get clipped and don't go as high, but it isn't an issue due to how fast you can cancel ANYTHING in GH, and that jumping roundhouse kick has iframes and you can side step to position yourself to use the enemy as a projectile.


CL has this happen as well, but has far less possibilities in terms of enemy states after a counter than GH. In CL it's mainly a damage dealer and in a lot of cases the more efficient way to damage certain enemies and bosses.

Because CL isn't a combo game, so there's not really much in the way of following up. The counter was to do more damage or when you see an opportunity to take an enemy out instantly.

For example, there are these dog types that roll on the spot like Sonic for 2 seconds before boosting forward at high speed. In a group of these, you want to run around jump slash countering them because it instantly kills them.

Actually I just remembered I have a video of exactly this, plus what you said about landing the move on multiple enemies. You'll see the same attack that counters one, and connects with others on normal hit resulting in either regular stun or knockdown. But thing is, I already know that's what will happen, so familiarity with the game and what could possibly happen helps greatly for when it does suddenly. Oh, and I said the jump slash instantly kills them, but you'll see me use two types. It's the spinning one that does it.



Even on fighting games(specially anime ones) sometimes it's hard to react to a non-expected counter hit and follow up with the proper combo/pressure.
Anime fighting games? I'm not too familiar with them. Like those arena type Naruto ones?

Should be noted that it was later revealed that (nearly) all of Mkob's videos are sadly save-state abuses galore edited together. So while technically possible, you're almost looking at a Tool Assisted Run (TAS).

One thing I would like to add on to is what 5Does mentioned, namely predictability. One of the things I disliked about modern Yakuza games (6 and up) is that you cannot predict what will happen if you hit a foe. Sometimes they block, sometimes they tire, sometimes they fall, other times they fly through the sky with weird ragdolls - anything can happen. You want a game to be predictable in some sense. Counterhits, when badly done, run counter to this (ha).

I do also think that the hidden counter mechanics should be bonusses, not core mechanics (unless you're really going for that). So for instance if a counter launches, it shouldn't be the only launcher.

> anime fighting games
Mostly like DBFZ, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear etc.

> Chaos Legion footage
Always cool to see you play that game, like night and day compared to me playing it seriously. Really should (yeah yeah) get into that one again.

One thing I do want to bring to the discussion again is the 'waiting game'. Because when I realized I could counter-hit their jumproll thing (of that mob you're fighting), every fight was me waiting it out and doing that. Just like Onimusha turned into me baiting Issen's every second for more orbs. You don't want it to be a dominant passive strategy.

I think it would've worked in Ninja Gaiden 2 if hitting a foe mid animation was a guaranteed delimb for instance, would be a good addition without taking over the game.

So while technically possible, you're almost looking at a Tool Assisted Run (TAS).
But are the actual fights themselves legit?
Serves the example in any case.

Counterhits, when badly done, run counter to this (ha).
Yeah, that makes sense, though in GH and CL, the enemies react the same unless in GH's case where multiple enemies get caught in them. In CL, I've never had anything really odd happen with counter hits. If you mistime and trade hits things can look odd but you still know what happened and why.

I wanted to show this in the CL video where I came down with the spin slash to counter the roller, and there was another just standing next to it. The countered one died and the one that took a normal hit got knocked down, which is what always happens when you jump spin slash smaller enemies.

I will admit that there is a boss with some wonky properties because his lower half is armored, but you can counter and still clip the bottom of his torso, sometimes doing little damage, sometimes huge. I still roughly get what's happening though, and over the years I got the timing down but sometimes it doesn't work with certain moves.

Mostly like DBFZ, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear etc.
Oh ok, I thought he meant those weird anime action games since that's what the topic is talking about. I'm familiar with those fighting games, though not good at them so I can't comment.

Sometimes they block, sometimes they tire, sometimes they fall, other times they fly through the sky with weird ragdolls - anything can happen.
There's no reason why any of these happen? Surely there must be something causing them?
These are actually related to another topic I wanted to make about these random actions enemies and bosses take in action games like dodging or blocking. I touched on this in the Ace Combat topic. I'll make a topic tomorrow.

like night and day compared to me playing it seriously
And so it will forever remain.

I do also think that the hidden counter mechanics should be bonusses, not core mechanics (unless you're really going for that). So for instance if a counter launches, it shouldn't be the only launcher
Yeah that makes sense, unless, like you said, it was a game designed in such a way maybe. It would probably lead to just fishing for counters and not be very fun though.

Because when I realized I could counter-hit their jumproll thing (of that mob you're fighting), every fight was me waiting it out and doing that.
In the video, I never do that (may have once of twice because I saw them powering up the roll) because if you wait, they might not even do it immediately. Those basic dogs can run up and take a swipe, backdash for no reason, or slowly strafe you. They will roll pretty much all time, but any time they decide to take any one of those other actions, you could have jumped in with the down slash and hacked them to death.

That's what I run around doing when I see them already rolling, otherwise I start hacking another. That's largely how you play with counters in CL when dealing with regulars. Some enemies you do want to stand and let them come to you, like the metal zombie soldiers. All they do is run straight at you, and you can insta-kill them with a counter using Ground Zero, which also happens to be the best way to gain exp in the game.

Even though you let them come to you, you don't wait long because they attack constantly.
Some bosses you want to wait for as well to deliver insane damage counters, but even then it's not too bad because they usually do their attacks regularly, or go through phases where you'll be doing normal damage every chance you get.

Just like Onimusha turned into me baiting Issen's every second for more orbs.
Yes, Oni is definitely a waiting game. Even though it's mechanics are not the ones I mean here, the same applies in this case. Way back on Oni 1 on PS2, when I was delving into the Issen mechanics, I would spend a lot of time standing around waiting for these fools to do something.

As you know, chain Issen was introduced after Oni 1. Waiting made more sense and rewarded you so much more if you had the timing down. There was that 7 hit auto Issen if you had a fully charged weapon when you Issened, but you could also do it with timed button presses. I believe there was a limit to how many times you could chain but to be honest I can barely remember. I know in Oni 3 you could do it as many times as you wanted (and had the ability to do - timing was pretty tight).

What I found though, is when I became super good at it, especially in Oni 3, I started to never use a single normal or magic attacks. It's like they all disappeared.

I was thinking of making a topic about parry/critical hits because Oni is one of those. These are quite common mechanics where actual counter hits aren't, though they still have quite a few interesting ways of doing them.

In conclusion, at this point, can we all agree that GH and CL have done them right and made them work in action games? If not, give voice.

5does
Regarding Dead Cells, I haven't played it and didn't quite understand the breach thing. So you can use any weapon to counter any attack of an enemy? Does enemy/player strength matter? Didn't really get that chart.

I think it would've worked in Ninja Gaiden 2 if hitting a foe mid animation was a guaranteed delimb for instance, would be a good addition without taking over the game.
Could work. I'm not expert as you know, but looking at how fast and aggressive the enemies are, wouldn't you be countering them constantly without even trying, especially with one of those fast, long weapons and go all over the place?

It opens a nice question, when does the counter system add nothing by being procced all the time? In NG2 you are right, with how agressive enemies are you'd either have to make the counter timing extremely tight or risk every hit being a counter by default.

> Mkob fights
What you're seeing is all possible, technically. But due to save-states he knew each move when it came out since he'd just reload a previous save-state, making the counter hits all very un-real if you get me.

> Yakuza system
It uses a ragdoll engine. So depending on just how the numbers roll anything can happen. I've seen a guy fly through half the galaxy by me just slightly nudging him. Other times a full facekick did nothing but make them shrug. Very sad.

> a counter focused game
Think this would be interesting. Doesn't Punch Out fall a bit under this mentality?

> issen
It became too much of a focus I agree, to the point that it was a stat in Dawn of Dreams that made the input easier - absolutely insane. I had the same problem as you btw, Oni1 I was just Issen'ing regularly, Oni2 a lot of the time and Oni3 was exclusive an Issen run. I think it was helped by Oni1 having some attacks that couldn't be Issen'd as I recall, and some being insanely difficult to Issen on reaction. Bosses also couldn't be Issen'd in that game.

> other
There are a few systems that also play into it. Pokemon has a few moves that are like soft counters. For instance Pursuit is an ability that when used counters an opponent trying to swap Pokemon for hard damage. But those are more 'on command' counters like Raiden's Parry (why no yellow parry!). Pretty sure Viewtiful Joe also had a Counter System to a point like we're looking for. Shinobi had it as well with enemies taking extra damage during certain animations (like the SpiderTiger boss only being OHKO'able if you caught him during his wallclimb animation).
Bloodborne has a system for it too, also with the beast-pellets but I'm not too well versed on its systems. Some Yakuza titles also have talents that note "deal bonus damage when you hit a foe just as they were about to hit you", same as with their Fist of the North Star game. But it is just a straigth damage boost.

NG2
Wait, NG has a heavy focus on blocking right? Yet from what I've seen, there's no waiting around because of the high level of aggression. It's a good example.

Mkob
Why is it that every time this guy comes up there's something negative. What a dick. How was this exposed? Does he deny it?

Yakuza
But the random blocking or tiring cant have anything to do with ragdoll right? I'll get onto that topic after work.

Punch Out
Not familiar with it.

Dawn of Dreams
Even without the upgrades, it was easier and had a freeze every time you connected. The speed of the next chain was always the same regardless of distance. In Oni 3, it was really hard to master the timing because of enemy distance, like if the next guy was beside the one you just killed, and the next was a few meters away, the timing was all different.

One of the reasons Issen became such a focus for me was because it was the game's most highly skilled technique. It was something to aspire to, extremely satisfying and offered big rewards.

When you watch samurai movies they do similar often, and it felt badass just standing in a group of demons without raising your weapon then the second they move to attack, flashing through all of them at once.

I think it was helped by Oni1 having some attacks that couldn't be Issen'd as I recall
B-B-But muh OPSHUNZZZZZ!!!

The Pokemon and Shinobi thing sound more like tactics than true counter hit mechanics. Will look into VJ.

Bloodborne definitely counts. You time your gunshot to interrupt an attack and it stuns them.

> NG2
Depends on the title, some are more offense-based like NG2. Black is definately a waiting game that would've benefitted from Counterhits. Note that in some games you get a 'sword clash' if you counter-hit, a neat mechanic. Didn't Red Steel 2 have a Counter hit mechanic now that I think about it?

> Yakuza
I honestly only played Yakuza 6 once, as I tired too quickly of the engine's lackluster combat.

> Punch Out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pJSTy4tJI
It's a game built around enemy-knowledge and counterhits basically, very unique.

> cannot Issen bosses
Why can't Gene jump?

> issen in general
I loved it for the exact same reason, it was a fun flashy animation that really showed what it was like to be a Samurai. Fantastic mechanic and also well balanced imo for reasons noted above.

Birdman:
>Anime fighting games?
Yeah Blazblue, GG, etc. All the fighting games about long ass combos and aerial combat.

>Dead Cells
It's basically a hidden status that allows you to stun mobs when you hit them during their movement, some weapons have higher breach values, some less, mobs have more resistances, etc. The mechanic itself allows you to be more aggressive because you get another option to avoid damage on top of dodges, parries and guaranteed CC moves.

Raeng:
>Mkob's videos are sadly save-state abuses
Lol, when did that happen?

>Yakuza 6
I thought the shortcomings of that game were mostly lore-related(Haruka being a dumb teenager, lack of Majima, etc). How does that game fares when compared with other modern Yakuzas(or spin-offs)?

>I do also think that the hidden counter mechanics should be bonusses, not core mechanics
As someone who never really liked waiting games I'd prefer this too, give a bonus for people for getting their attack timing rights but don't really build the whole game around it so the player is forced to just play the waiting game.

> MKOB
Guy hasn't had it easy since the whole 'abuse' debacle with .. eh. What's her name, the female Bayonetta player? I forgot her name. Yoshke or something like that. Some while after that one of his buddies let it leak that he just heavily edits his runs, uses savestates for when he gets hit etc. Guy doesn't even own a copy of God Hand apparently. It's been a while though since I've seen that one, I think it was burried by his fans or something.

> Yakuza 6
The lore-related elements were bad yes, mostly for the points you noted as well as the entire title being a bad word-for-word re-use of Yakuza 3's story.
Gameplay was a huge step back too sadly as it switched to a new engine.

Yakuza previously had used the same engine for nearly 10(!) years. As such they had gotten quite adept at it. Combat was arcade'y, fun brawler, with Zero and FotNS being the highlights as pure action games (highly recommended). Yakuza 6 though, did a lot of miss-steps. The combat now had a physics engine, you only had a single fighting style again, the amount of heat-moves (those specials) was lowered from nearly 100 to barely 10 (no joke). No weapons could be equipped. Combat was less about tense brawls and went musou in return, facing Kiryu against sometimes 20+ mooks. It had the worst stat-system imaginable, giving NuGoW a run for its money.

The game really fell on its ass. Yakuza Kiwami 2 was slightly better, but you can see it's taking them time. JudgeEyes is looking much better.

> countergame
I think it would be a neat game-idea, just a game focused on counters. But make it something small a-la Killer is Dead or something alike. Think it could be a cool little action-title on the side.

NOTE: random, but I read that topic of Bemo going wild and you saying "Tell me one person that doesn't agree on a lot of things with Raeng". Well: TMK and Alchemy, mostly from the Nioh-boards. That topic really tried my patience haha: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/181161-nioh/75320387

I'm not sure if you've ever had to pleasure of meeting those two. But pfff.

>New engine
It almost sounds like they're trying to sabotage Kiryu by having such a resource consuming change to be made on the most important game of the series starring him. All of the other games using the new engine indeed look so much better since they weren't used as a test drive for it.

>game focused on counters. But make it something small a-la Killer is Dead or something alike.
It would be better suited imo for a indie title where they can take all the risks they want without the need of cattering to corporate decisions.

>Alchemy and TMK
Alchemy is one of the (many) resident idiots of the DMC boards, the kind that's usually only right when it comes to trashtalk DmC but then has no idea of what he's talking about when he moves onto another topic(I think he posts on the NuGoW boards too? Been a while). Never really seen TMK, does he come from the Souls side of the Nioh fanbase? I mostly know the Cuhhhraizy/HnS crowd.

>Thread link
I'll be sure to treat myself to some popcorn later on while I read this slowly.

some weapons have higher breach values, some less, mobs have more resistances
How do these work? If your value isn't high enough does your breach fail?

he just heavily edits his runs, uses savestates for when he gets hit
So you're not just talking restarting a fight, but actual splicing into the fights themselves whenever he made a mistake?

TMK and Alchemy,
hahaha I remember these two fools. It's amazing how butthurt some people get over losing at a freakin' video game.

We should have dedicated section called the 'Scrub Zoo/Museum' or something, where we compile a list of similar threads for all to see and gasp in wonder.

> Yakuza6
I can sort of get the idea behind it, you want to close of the protagonist's game for good with a bang. On the other hand I'd also like to say that it would've been a great idea to push the Yakuza Zero engine even further.
Didn't help that Zero made the series more popular to the point that everyone that bought Y6 expected it to play similar, which gave it more bad press.

That said, it isn't Kiryu's finale by a long shot. I really doubt it.

> Alchemy
Mostly on Nioh and NuGoW, haven't seen him on DMC though that could be because I have him on Ignore (I forget). TMK comes from the Soul's side yeah. He wants every area to have newly designed enemies for variety, doesn't care for games mixing it up with enemy compositions (just give me a bright new shiny thing to fight).

> Scrub Zoo/Museum
Dear god that would be hilarious, but I'm not sure that's such a good idea hahahaha!

> So you're not just talking restarting a fight, but actual splicing into the fights themselves whenever he made a mistake?
Basically yeah, with emulators you can make saves mid-fight and load those. So if you get hit during a boss fight just reload the previous save. Everything is stored, so if you do a punch and the enemy immediately dodges away, you can reload and he'll do it again but this time you know.

I always thought his timing of those uppercut counters was almost psychic. I can do them, but not like that.

>How do these work? If your value isn't high enough does your breach fail?
Stronger weapons are more prone to breach, stronger mobs are less prone to be breached, some weapons have different properties leading to crits such as whips having sweetspots, some weapons having backstabbing criticals, etc. If the value isn't met you'll just do a regular hit which isn't that big of a deal seeing as you can cancel your attack into a dodge anything or throw a subweapon that includes CC freeze grenades.

>So you're not just talking restarting a fight, but actual splicing into the fights themselves whenever he made a mistake?
Imagine you get to checkpoint whenever you want during a fight and you can load into it without the need of going menus, it's that dumb. They're helpful in trial-and-error games like King Lion and admitted TAS plays are pretty fun to watch how people can push games beyond human limits, Mkob sin is using such a useful feature from emulators to fake high level gameplay so he could score some internet brownies.

>We should have dedicated section called the 'Scrub Zoo/Museum' or something
Pros:
-Fun as hell.
-Easily accessible.
-Gives us a good historic of who some users really are even if they try to act nice on new boards.
-Internet ammo.

Cons:
-Giving scrubs internet ammo in regards of being butthurt and being elitists.
-Might(Will) attract more views than proper HnS talk.
-Lots of work involved considering how often dumb threads/discussions happen(we're looking at hours from the DMC board alone).

Raeng:

>He wants every area to have newly designed enemies for variety, doesn't care for games mixing it up with enemy compositions
Gotta spend the most resources developing mobs in a action game and not make the most of them(remixed fights, pallete swaps with new moves and beffier stats, etc). It's almost like developing games doesn't cost money.

So if your breach value is high enough you actually cancel out the enemy's attack?

This sounds very similar to Chaos Legion, where your attack power determines whether or not you'll stop their attack. You still counter even if it's low, though this is only ever the case early game.

Most bosses dont flinch from attacks because they're all large monsters mostly so they dont count.

In Dead Cells, do you ever get to a point where you are strong enough to always breach or will their always be something resistant?

He wants every area to have newly designed enemies for variety, doesn't care for games mixing it up with enemy compositions
These types just arent in it for good mechanics.

I remember the day I fought two tengu at once and it was a completely new (and horrifying) experience.