Serious Discussion: Does The Witcher 3 really have bad combat?

We see this view constantly. I don't think I've ever seen TW3 mentioned without someone saying the combat is awful, or to a lesser extent, not the focus.

I'm not going to bother discussing this anywhere else because usually these types don't even examine combat mechanics, and are Souls fanboys or trolls.

When I get home I'm going to post some comments I've heard and maybe find some and post them here, then analyze what exactly people think makes the combat so bad.

Some common ones. Feel free to add you own comments on these and any other points you've heard.

Soft lock-on
I can agree with this. I like to be able to attack whoever I want, not being stuck on the nearest enemy. I don't think this makes the combat bad, but it would be better without it.

Why use anything other than the most powerful build?
Irrelevant point. We've seen this with DMC and other action games with players who don't care about mechanics.

Quen breaks the game.
You aren't forced to use it.

No build variety.
I must have been imagining all those builds I saw on YT just now.

Comparisons to Dark Souls games.
Anyone? I don't know enough to say much about Souls since I only ever played with the bow. The games are different though so I'm not sure why they're being compared.

Clunky (dodging and movement in general.
I didn't find it bad. It's not a high speed game and the dodging worked just fine for me.

Becomes too easy.
Okami is easy too, yet the mechanics are fantastic. It would be nice if it had a harder mode though.

Basic sword attack animations vary depending on where the enemy is/distance. The pirouette animations.
I have mixed feelings about this. I didn't bother me that much, but probably because I got used to it fast and got a feel for how Geralt would move based on the enemy's distance. I don't like the idea though and would never ask for it to be in any game.

I think what's really important to note here is the goal of the combat. The goal in The Witcher 3 (TW3) is to make you feel like you are Gerald from the books. He's a brutal swordsman with a genetics edge on regular humans, but he's no Superman.

The whole game's emphasis on monster hunting and combat with them is - imo - very well done. A generic player will just run at a beast and either die or win, but a good player will use the game's lore-mechanics. They'll read up on its beastiary to get a better understanding of the monster (sometimes doing sidequests to get this information), use the information to learn weaknesses such as potions, oils etc. You'll make those oils, the potions, prepare for the fight, make sure it is the right time of day so you have good visibility, kill off any nearby enemies so you have a clear room of engagement, and then you go in the cave or area and fight the beast.
Technically that's the combat. The fight itself isn't that 'deep' or impressive other than it looks impactful and shiny (good sfx on hit, enemies visibily react well timed to your attacks etc). I also like that there are two dodges (sidestep and roll), gives you plenty of options without messing with weapon styles or directions or lockon things like in Bloodborne and Nioh. Fights against humans are fast, brutal and bloody (lots of screaming). The spells are okay, they are more suplementary. I do feel it could've been done better, as right now you can easily spam it to hell and back.

But that's what I really like about the game, the whole fight before it. As such though, the game shines best under certain handicap runs. Doing things like Deathmarch No-HUD already breathes new life into the game.

To react to some of your points:

> soft lock
Ninja Gaiden did this too, and worse I feel. It is fine here and I never had any issue with it. If you cannot press a direction on the stick, that's your incompetence.

> builds
Some trees are a bit too good (potions), but all in all you're just very powerful. Sure you can use the most imbalanced build around, but again, you can do this too in DMC4 (DRI4), Bayonetta, Nioh, Ninja Gaiden Black (UF-spam).

> Quen
Hardly. It's an extra shield. When upped it can be really good though, but it doesn't make you immortal as most note.

> Dark Souls
Hilarious, just shows how little action games these people play. Dark Souls is the only game in the genre they touched so if it has a sword, it must be Dark Souls. Otherwise it is Bloodborne.

> Clunky
Just a different style of game. It is more slow, but it does suffer (on consoles) from dropped inputs at times.

> Too easy
Most that say that used overpowered builds on Normal, so I don't see that as true. If you play on Deathmarch from the start the game gives plenty of hard fights. It is just easy to ignore those and level up a bit and then just gimp the enemy with your high level gear.
I feel adding stats here was a mistake, at least the whole level-concept.

> Basic sword attack animations vary depending on where the enemy is/distance. The pirouette animations.
That is just incorrect. They vary, yes, but they always do the same thing depending on what you are doing and where you are. Once you know that, you can always predict what type of slash you'll get. Metal Gear Rising had the exact same system and it never got a single complaint about it.


PS: I just know now that I want to write a Stinger article on this game too...fml.

Good points.

Soft lock
It might also depend on the game and how other mechanics work with it. Like NG has a ton more options like movement, attacks, blocking.

The goal in The Witcher 3
Is that why people call it bad though? Sure there's stuff from the books like silver swords and fancy spinning attacks, but not actual game mechanics stuff like i-frames or builds.

Builds
There's always something overpowered in any game. Why don't people understand this? I've seen them criticizing a game for this, while in the same paragraph praising a game that does it too.

Quen
I believe it was a certain build that was really powerful.

Difficulty
I started on death march and found it quite dangerous if not properly prepared.

Animations
I was going to mention MGR but forgot while I was typing. I think, again, it's a case of the game and what other mechanics you have available.

The pirouette moves are a complaint I've seen often, due to how they have some wind up. I never had an issue with them though. As you said, you get to know what's going to come out.

People call it bad because they generally seem to see combat in three camps. You're either Dark Souls (slow methodical), you're Devil May Cry (showcase of style) or Batman (braindead, but fun in their eyes). It is a very narrow view.

> overpowered
Same reason why people call reviewers out if a game they hate gets a high score and call them "sell outs" but when those same reviewers praise a game they praise, the suddenly love the reviewer. People don't know why they like what they like, so they just accept it and don't look further.

> Quen
A certain build: exactly. As a standalone ability it was fine. And you could just not use it, as using it limited your other abilities badly.

> animations
It is a beginners complaint and one of action gamers who want full control and style, it can be hard to get into but once you're used to it it is absolutely fine. Batman also does random attacks at times, their animation speeds are always fine. Dante does random taunts in DMC4, is that bad?
Of course not.

> difficulty
Yeah the game can be quite hard if you're unprepared, some fights can see you die in 1 to 3 hits if you're not careful. I think this all comes back to players 'optimizing the fun out of a game'. With so many options in armor and stat combinations, it is easy to just burn the game down.

Quen
I barely touched this sign. I hate this type of defensive stuff. I like ranged, debilitation, or traps. So I instantly gravitated towards the cross bow and poison arrows, Yrden, and looked into bombs.

If I can stop lying and procrastinating, I want to start playing this again and do an analysis of the basic melee, as this seems to be what bothers everyone the most.

Quen's biggest fault is that when using it you lose acces to a lot of other magical tools. Yrden is great. I was a big Ard fan myself and the mindcontrol Axii. Loved it.

Going to get back into this. The books and tv show really made me want to finish it and look into more builds. I had a ton of ideas back then, as I had looked up what you get in the DLCs, but never got anywhere near them. I stopped at the card game tournament right before going to Skellige. Did everything possible up to that point but kept getting my ass kicked by the final player.

I've been watching tons of videos on builds and it's madness that anyone could think there is little combat variety.

> Batman also does random attacks at times, their animation speeds are always fine.

Isn't Arkham combat mostly animation-based, and not hitbox-based? I don't fully remember, it's been a while since I last touched Arkham.

Anyway, I've tried to get into W3 like... 4 times, and it completely bounced off of me each time. Furthest I got was like, Destination Skellige in terms of missions, if I recall correctly. It was just something that I could barely ever get interested in.

I think they still have hitboxes. They'd have to wouldn't they? But I think I know what you mean.

Witcher 3 doesn't work like that but when you attack with basic strikes it's possible to see a handful of different ones.

It took me two tries before it sort of clicked but my main issue was not being able to play how I wanted fast enough. Looking at lists of every possible upgrade and tools I have a lot of ideas but it won't be until after both DLCs that I will actually have access to everything.

Good news is NG+ is supposed to be much harder.

I think more and more I’m finding combat in games to just either be a)not for me, or b) uninteresting, and this game fell into both categories for me. What really constitutes as “bad” combat? Most comments regarding bad combat seem to just be things that aren’t appealing to the person or things that are preferences.

Birdman wrote:I think they still have hitboxes. They'd have to wouldn't they? But I think I know what you mean.

Witcher 3 doesn't work like that but when you attack with basic strikes it's possible to see a handful of different ones.

I hate to quote TGBS, but this is what I had in mind. Just to make sure we're on the same page here.

Yeah that's exactly what we're talking about. Like Batman, there's no spacing, you just zip over like a magnet.

Witcher basic attacks may fall into that category but I haven't played in ages. I know you can swing on empty air.

But then there's other attacks like Rend which is a single overhead strike that you can just do on the spot. I barely used it but I vaguely recall doing it early to have a guy run right into it because I don't think you can move during this move.

Not sure if any single sword attacks hit multiple enemies but Whirl, a spinning multi-hit, hits anyone in the way.

Witcher3 has some auto-targeting in that Geralt will home in on the target of your choosing and attack them if you press the button. Raiden in MGR:R does the same thing. It isn’t that bad.

Batman does it ONLY if you have a combo going, so it is a reward in that game. It is even an skill with its own description, I think it is called Combat Flow or something. If you don’t have it active you will just punch empty air. But that’s a whole other game with a different gameplay focus.

Whirl is so good by-the-way. Fantastic game though, cannot recommend it enough.

Got the game back and none of my saves work. They say 'data unavailable' or when I load them it says I have to wait until they become available but it never moves from 0%.

Started a new file. I can't even remember half the stuff I did in my old file. Going to go with poisoned blades this time.

Gonna hijack, what do people think of Witcher 2's combat? I said I would finish it before playing 3. But then I got to the rival Witcher. Yeah I can cheese him with bombs, throwing knives and traps (although I might need to get an old save and buy more of them before the fight), but my chances of doing that before December 14 are minimal.

This was in May, although I've been playing on and off for years. With the next-gen update announced, I decided to buy 3 before they stop selling it. Especially with the base version getting the goty dlc for free. I imagine the "complete edition" won't go on sale for at least 3 months, like the Sony games, and won't hit the 80% drops for even longer.

Witcher 2 is fairly easy up until the rival Witcher. The Kraken fight from memory isn't great. You hack away at displayed weak points on its 4 tentacles. Hack the middle left, and the far left is defenseless. The middle and far right can't reach you there, and you might as well, as the hitboxes are wider than the tentacle. Then there are some qtes, and this bit where you climb its body for a finisher that I had to look up online.

Pre-forum me would've said the rival witcher is bad. I'll now say that he's challenging. He drops you in 3 hits, and there's barely any hit detection for you or him. Plus poison kills you outright, rather than bringing you down to a magic pixel. The death animation is painfully slow and drags out the fight.

I've heard nothing but bad things about W2's combat. I measure a good combat system by whether I have fun losing. W2, and I've briefly touched the arena, is quite fun. I enjoy beating enemies, even if the hit detection is anaemic. Losing, which is quite rare, is kind of middling, rather than bad. Happens quickly too. I even restarted story bosses to avoid using consumables. But I suppose he wouldn't be much of a Witcher if he went down without a fight. Talk about wall bosses, this guy's built like a wall too.

I quite liked the Witcher 2's combat on the highest difficulty. You were very vulnerable, but enemies died in droves too and the combat was very visceral for the time with realistic loss of limbs, screaming enemies etc. It was quite the sensory experience.

It wasn't a top-tier action game. But it did have a lot of little things I felt it got quite right. Like how you could use potions and other methods during your meditation to 'prepare' for the inevitable combat

The bosses were the lowpoint for me at the time, so I can understand why people dislike them. I mostly recall them being roll>roll>quen>roll>quen>roll with the occasional hit.

Just started TW3 with the next gen patch, 2nd highest difficulty. Not sure whether to bump it up to the highest. I usually save that for the 2nd playthrough. It feels like early-game TW3 in terms of damage taken.

I'm way too early into it to start giving authoritative commentary, so I'll just say that the quick select signs take some getting used to from TW2. The up-close camera is awful. I feel sick walking, and can't see enemies behind me. They said in a dev diary that it was an experiment from playtesting that they decided to keep. I suspect they also took inspiration from GoW18, but they don't have the slow enemies or arrow indicators to match.

They still sell the original and complete edition, even though patch 4.0 is supposed to have all dlc. And they still do 80% discounts, at least on GOG. I guess it really is just a free update, not a way of selling a 7 year old game at full price.

Can't wait to start my "DMC Player plays Witcher 3" playlist and miss the point. Although since you can't cancel out of animations, it's more like DS. If your attacks have commitment, it's a DS clone. If not, it's a DMC clone. No inbetween. Actually, I think someone beat me to it here. Must've been too busy doing all my cuhrayzee combos.

> I suspect they also took inspiration from GoW18
Wait, do you mean they added this close up camera in the patch?

what the..

> next gen TW3
> has new camera
Excuse me what? Got a link to footage about it?

To clarify, you can turn it off. But you can see it's ripped straight out of tlou/gow18.

Also, I was going to say it ran like crap, but it's been addressed that even 3080s struggle with dlss quality and rt maxed out. I was getting 38fps on 1440p in open fields. The town will probably be below that. You have to delete a file just to get the rtss overlay and see the framerate. Can't judge the game, but the port is meh, as they backported dx12 rather than using the cyberpunk build of red engine.

That legit looks unplayable. I'd disable that immediately.

That new camera looks...horrid. At least it's not compulsory and you can use the original one.

I've had TW3 for years and never bothered to play it, always been one of those "I'll get to it eventually" titles. I was quite looking forward to the next-gen update when I heard it was free, I was thinking my PC will be able to make the most of it...but I heard it launched in a rough state. Has the patched fixed all your issues  @Black Adam ?

i like that camera for being in towns and exploration, but for battle? in a game that wasn't even designed for that? rolling.

@Gregorinho it's a little better. Not scientifically measured, but I'm getting <20% extra. That's only going from 38 to 45fps though. Yes rtgi is heavy, but the game is also cpu bound, so it's not utilising the cards properly. Almost as if it's there to push a certain new tech on new cards that doubles framerates. I'll try a reshade mod with rtgi, which apparently doesn't hit fps as hard.

I can see why it's popular, though. Completing quests like any open world is like popping bubblewrap. Am I the only one who hears Milfgaard everytime someone says Nilfgaard? It doesn't help that I'm looking for a 100 year old woman who makes herself youthful with magic.

>ggilf

yes, she's the main love interest. Geralt is also approaching 100.

Why the hell did they bother with this update?

Saw a tweet of them asking for info on bugs. Wtf.

Should've just left it alone.

>100 year old woman who makes herself youthful with magic.

hot. can you fuck that GGILF?