God of War : Ghost of Sparta

This will include some unrelated stuff, but sorting is a pain so we'll just take it as is (then extrapolate) as needed:

"AoS has a full moveset with much more merit and potential strategy.  It can evade without switching.  Has unique parry counters.  Mobile blocking.  Air blocking.  Insta-shatter air special.  Non-P% at good DMG (not bad DMG)."

"The advantage of RANGE with AoS is hard to overstate.  It would be nice if it had more cancels than the light special, of course.  That's just Million Stabs (only really for 'Greed' maybe *ignoring style as you should*).  It isn't in an entry with a convenient thing like a free draw animation tool to cancel quickly with let alone invincibly."

"Poor AoS exists in an entry with bad collisions, bad environmentals, bad petrification balancing, etc.  Still does great work.  It is that solid.  It would need a prolonged homing arrow rain to beat GoZ among other thing, but it is up there with the biggest and the best.  BH?  Probably A+ to S range.  Not S+.  No way.  AoS would be top of S if not bottom of S+.  It just has the right stuff even without super high base (or something like RotT to amp it).  If it had all the same boons, it would be that much more GOAT'd.  Alas, it does not.  It isn't nearly the same level of broken as GoZ (even with the unlimited projectile stuff *good for it not being so tasteless*)."

"The existing moveset with tweaks to fit GoWII would make it pretty easily beat the others, yes.  Good set-up, good keep-out, good DMG and all that.  Even in NUR+, you could use your normals and shield stuff to work P% and modifier, but when nerfed with GK, VH and what have you, the spear specials are there for you, too.  The decent values would decimate statues (and we have fantastic access in that entry from GF and EH aside from FF).  Weapon Wheel for CC aside from spell cancels with TB/EH would drastically improve the lot of the tool, as well.  But I don't plan to do a full 'what-if' here (as I did for all entries with Arty were it outside GoW1).

If just considering it briefly, just the basic lights have okay reach and output on the heels of BoO for dps (which you seemed a fan of).  This without touching the special string (even stronger *nearing BH heavy range*).  The t1 is fast like SoD, but lacks the reach in any regard.  Safe with good utility and double the DMG (not super useful as with when I noted this for CoH).  However, it does NOT have the option to slow-mo pursue with i-frames (only manual jump).  This tempers it just a bit.  Air light string is meh.  Air t1 is its own answer to BH (not as strong, but has the bounce quality).  Multi-stab is a joke beyond hit count (as ever).  Not even great for that.  Shield Slam hits for a good chunk even before the just release (again allowing a sudden competing with BH).  Air okay.

Getting to the better stuff.  Shield Charge is still iffy as a mobile blocking attack (it would need an actual adjustment in that regard). As is for values, the output is fine.  For PS2 era statues?  We're talking  ~1.6/1.6/1.6/1.6/10.  So running while blocking to bowl through a row of statues (makes me wish I had the data from Wright in a convenient tier list about now).  With GoWII, what all has 1sHP?  No need to talk about fliers (obvious reasons).  What of 3 or less (2 hits of the lesser portion)?  Barbarian Mercenary, Cursed Remains, Wild Boar and Cerberus Seed.  Sadly, not so many 1sHP cases this time around (as in GoW1).  Meh.

All the lesser hits (4 for ~6)?  Rabid hound, Undead Archer, Cursed Archer, Fates Sentry, Fates Guardian, Hades Fiend, Undead Legionnaire, Cursed Legionnaire, Legionnaire Captain, Hades Legionnaire and Beast Lord.   Just the final hit is enough for all these and more (though not enough for a top tier at 20 much less the 50sHP outlier *you need the exploit for that*).  Erebus Minotaur falls to the ender.  So too does Gorgon, Satyr, Satyr Champion, Siren Widow, Siren, Wraith of Athens and Wraith of Asphodel.  Hades Juggernaut jobs to a few taps and the ender.  Same for Minotaur Grunt, Gorgon Assassin, Cyclops Tyrant, Cyclops Brute, High Priest of the Fates and Cerberus.

So the ground version does alright.  The air version insta-shatters whatever, which is great.  Not exactly covering a lot of spaces, but not the slowest option in town.  Plenty fast enough even for a Gorgon Queen (tight).  Hades Minotaur?  No sweat at all.  Maybe time enough for two Cerberus Breeders not next to each other.  What of the spear moves?  What are we looking at?  They ARE affected by modifier (don't seem to be spells though *unlike PS*), just not P%.  This means that you CAN amp it with RotT (unlike even DR *for the PEW PEW LAZOR*).  Alright, the baseline for the basic is just 4.  Not enough to one shot statues other than the lowest fodder and pest.  Two are needed for Rabid Hounds and most Minor Grunts.  Because modifiers DO NOT help this works against it as a crush tool, so it stays 4 (rather than 12).  Doesn't have PS privilege here.  You want to break a Queen?  You need 5 in 3 seconds.  Not happening.  For Hades Minotaur?  You need 13 in 5s.  *raffs* No.  IF it were a spell type, then you could swing that (5 in 5s might be doable with spam).

But that's the basic toss.  What of others?  Arrow Rain is 8h of 2 each at what would be baseline (1.0).  This rather than the MAX version of 6 each (for 48).  The potential is going to be 16 (enough for anything shy of top tiers caught in the AoE with one toss as such).  That's more than sufficient generally.  Would be nice if size started to let more hits occur, but whatever.  That would be a tweak from Derek and Eric (not 'what is').  The charged toss is 30, so 10 like this.  You would handle mid-levels and below quickly.  Perhaps fast enough to do a Queen.  Not sure the spam is fast enough for Hades Minotaur.  You know the vibes.  Not entirely sure about the time measurement for the strings adding up.  I suppose the nature of the shield slam would explosive (possibly the shield slam combo ender, too), which WOULD let P% factor (I forget about modifiers).  Maybe it does worse.  Maybe it does better.  HM might just be the bane of it (for bustin').

The artillery strike is 36, but here it should be 12 (better than  the shield charge ender).  So all the same lads and below with one blast.  Not bad.  But for bigger targets (maybe a Breeder or Hades Minotaur, but for sure the case with Cyclops Berserker) it gains an extra hit.  Just another 10, but IF subject to debuff it would only add 3.3* meaning we're looking at just over 15 (taking it up to territory of the Arrow Rain).  Very spammable with the cued tech.  Definitely within the realm of reason to get a Gorgon Queen if you're quick.  Most others are a shoe-in.  That leaves Hades Minotaur.  I feel like even if it has the bonus, you won't have time enough for 4 tosses (and 3 is just shy).  If only using this option you probably fail (where Arrow Rain comes closer yet fails, too).  Normals would be the way to go for the tough case (other than air SC insta-break).  This slightly takes away from it (as you lose out a little on ranged viability interplay with the mechanic).

But there is more to things than crushing.  Ruin is easily set-up (t1, air t1, etc.).  Not a lot of hit properties, but still some to consider.  The t0b has a bounce.  With how GoWII works, you would need a weapon switch (if not CC) cancel to get OH in theory, but AoS had the GoZ privilege on this front as I recall, so it would transfer (for what that is worth).  Same for t1 set-up (or air t1 on-landing).  The s3 knockback doesn't take long and would be an okay tool for the usual application of half collisions or hazards.  Poor Man's Stinger has the ender for knockback with only the ground version.  That is something.  Run/Evade light only has knockback on the downed, so there is bounce/launch to this, I suppose.  Did the other spear moves really have no hit properties?"

"Let's check with the arena to recall. *checks*  Arrow Rain has a very narrow AoE.  I forgot about that.  No hit properties.  Probably similar to a light starter for lockdown purposes.  Normal spear toss is similar.  Can keep charges cued between rolls, which is cute.  Rain is blockable.  The artillery is not.  It has knockback.  Being an AoE knockback from long range targeting from off-screen is pretty alright.  Also, you need switch cancel for OH off t0b.  Switch cancels are strong for AoS.  The shield slam is a bounce.  Charge is a knockback (excellent for the air verison's utility).  The charge won't cancel without picking a move.  The light doesn't cancel with swap (free options), but the heavy does (and swap cancels into block).  Advanced, but the tech is there (even without CC).  The multi-stab didn't have a knockback on retest.  Just a harder flinch.  Air state didn't even get knocked back (just pushed back).  This proved the same for the running/evade light (oof).  The air version has nothing the same hit reaction as t0a (slightly stronger flinch *spin in place*).  When down to airborne foes they just spike down slowly without a bounce.

The non-charged version (downward) ALSO has knockback, which makes it like a variant of PS.  Quick option.  It wants to fire from an angle, mind you (downward to the floor).  IF you use it in the air on something airborne the thing hit is dragged along the course of the weapon, which is a curious thing (the knockback only happens on impact on the ground, but this drags them along the flight path *potential hazard use from this before the actual collision at the end*).  Well, on shallow hit.  On deep hit it just spikes them below for a bounce by the look of it.  So it and aSC are great for their own variant of what PS offers.  Sadly, the trajectory for the air heavy spear is set (and no charge options nor can you store/cue for on-landing *resets*).  Still, having on-demand knockback with fast start-up, good recovery, good DMG, etc. isn't bad.  Spell cancels worked for pretty much anything that wasn't the Spear Special ready stance (and things from it).

Testing shows that the launcher can slow-mo rise if you want, so that wasn't accurate.  That's a good correction to have.  All good to know, eh?  The unique counter is a small AoE knockback (doubt it has i-frames).  The DMG is P% scaling and works with the modifier.  Probably explosive type.  Having something potentially 22.5 for vanilla VH as an alternative to flat 5 is pretty cute (even if losing out on i-frame).  IF we had to switch to BoA to get Return that would be unfortunate in terms of petrification, obviously.  Not sure about projectile return otherwise.  I updated my document with the more accurate information.  Guess some things changed since the old demo.  All the more reason to have Wright check things with datamining.  This gives some idea of how AoS in GoWII would look, I imagine.  Definitely exceptionally strong.  I'm not going to comment on the notion of the evade light becoming (as it and the light special should be in general) another knockback.  It seems to have a lot of access to this mechanic as is.  More than I recalled.

NOTE: Hopefully, this breakdown encourages you to consider working with it in a focus test (after unlocking things).  It seemed the heavier spear stuff would not provoke guard counters from Triton Lords, but instead guard broke them, which was neat."

"I'm only talking what it is.  Not how good it is.  Stinger is praised for a reason.  I can't close the gap with the start-up of the AoS version even as a MAX option (sadly).  We have a Shield Charge, but not a Spear Charge (R+o doesn't exist *should have been R+O, by the way*).  Also, pretty sure the nature of PSP meant L2 and R2 are repeats (read: wasted).  A redo could have added even more moves (while keeping the weird controls for selection of tools *took me half a minute to recall down on d-pad was the swap input*).

As this move is, it is the SWAP CANCEL special (so free) with okay dps on the ground (really crap in the air).  The ender for both being more capable of interrupt and heavier flinch without provoking undesirable DEF reactions.  Guard break, even.  Just that we can't input to skip the stabs nor focus on more stabs, which is NOT cool.  Where is my mashing to trigger a faster and stronger version of the multi-hit (aside from skipping right to the point if trying to avoid getting countered)?  Using extensive knowledge and high skill inputs to cancel for more rapid reps still mostly exists for a parlor show (HAWD CAMBOWS), sadly.

>TB on AoS
They wanted to prop up the BoA for relevancy since they knew AoS having the dps advantage along with extreme reach advantage (even with a mobile block) would favor it too much.  I still feel like certain moves should have chipped away armor/shield (as with Onyx).  Landing even the just frame L+T just to bounce off harmlessly is ridiculous design.  Don't want the s1 to work?  So be it.  Could maybe even tolerate s3 taking the L.  Leave some shine to shield blows here (maybe none of those bounce off with the heavier ones able to harm through this stuff while the bigger deal cases act equivalent to a core going off *not about DMG at all*)."

">was mostly considering s3 for knockback
It ended up having quite a lot of others on this front, didn't it?  Being in an entry with this meaning more would be a huge boon (and a huge L if not a tailspin when transferred to GoWII *just still doing alright with more hazards to work*).

>and spear stuff from afar
Of course.  IF I felt like spending a day, I could devise what-if tactics for MAX AoS in a given entry as I did Arty.  Doubt I could do every entry in one-sitting now.

The air block is so poorly telegraphed, I could swear it doesn't look to exist at all.  It is there, but still weird.  Not having even MAX able to air parry as a SHIELD tool is wild to me.  We really out here not getting a SINGLE option that was truly focused on DEF?  Ground SC is it (air doesn't get anything save take you to the ground faster).  No block frames during other shield attacks (whack) let alone auto-parry (t0a could have used that).

Where is my focused block stance (one many phalanx possibly with red energy spartan phantoms forming up) to negate GB moves for free (GB on UB *if timed beating even UB *and true throws to become untouchable like RG*)?  I'd be fine with it being purely directional (Souls style).  That's fair.  Still a real fake-out to not have AoS block work on freezing and petrification.  The former for sure at even lv1.  With near MAX, I would expect the option to 'Return' freezing for a small AoE (not like the mechanic is busted, so this is just a small thing).  With petrification, perhaps lagging one level (actual MAX).  Don't want base to trash petrification for free (they have enough problems). The boon isn't that serious considering how things are (as with pDMG from FF being the way to go in GoS anyway).

NOTE: And how can it be that even MAX for the pitiful L+s can't have block frames (we're behind the shield) if only directional?

>CC for AoS
I'd rather be using it to make R specials safer, but it seems like at least R+S and R+T would suffer as DR does in that the move would instantly disappear the moment you cancel (so anything prior to impact would result in safety without a hit on target).

NOTE: Shame AoS didn't get another level to amp further (having Arrow Rain with a better AoE and/or slow pursuit would have been SWEET).  Don't want more DMG.  Just more 'value'."

"Retouched on the GoS stuff (which you need to get back for Deimos PAIN+, but also AoS stuff *among other things*).  Tested against Keres.  So the 'spun' moves with the weird Flinch 2 (spin in place) seem like guard break moves.  If they were blocking, it opens them up.  This aside from a slightly longer hit stun.  So t0a, ground/air light special and run/evade light all do this.  The running shield charge blocks the same as the real thing just that it starts late (not until the shield is fully ahead of us *ready position* and stops just as the ender begins).

With further testing, it seems like t0a is the exception to this hit property (we also see on the parry animation).  Sad for it.  Would have been baller.  Also, the grab jobs to moving (even move blocking) if near the point of origin (start of throw from burrow).  She'll just sail by.  Good to know.  Another feather in the cap does NOT hurt.  Standing still didn't work.  HoB ender has this property.  Keres anti-hit property burrow, SADLY, cannot be stopped, but it seems they are open to interrupt in the "O" time out version.

Sucks that HoB can'td be canceled on the first tic of MP use for a short i-frame window.  Instead  the best you can do is DJ to get the longest window possible for 3 tics.  Seems like HoB costs ~25MP each use.  4 with MIN bar.  If sustained, probably 5 rotations worth.  8 with MAX.  Thus 9 with sustained.  Using so much MP to trick isn't ideal.  Still, it is a thing.  Didn't seem like E made the spell cheaper by 25% like it ought to have.  I'm reminded that Robotos doubles spell costs (as if they needed more L's), but Legionnaire (why this one) is the caster (halved cost).  Deimos had WAY cheaper costs.  I think it was 31 casts for the 200MP bar (rather than 8).

HoB cancels really would have been super fly with the ability to stop at one tic for a cheap option.  Didn't realize Piraeus Lion could ignore my i-frames during HoB with the roar.  Sure are a ton of cancel things to keep in mind with good use of AoS in particular (like moving/blocking if not evading when swapping to cancel through recovery before doing other things).  With high skill (or careful use of pausing), one can do a lot more with it (taken to an advanced level).

There are cases where EoA can come out fast enough to catch a knockback (preventing burrow).  Also, the ender shock prevents this (so you can quickly artillery her while it is active without getting a burrow).  Don't recall the option to tap circle for the ender sooner with the Shield Charge nor it being an instant use out of evade.  Shame we cannot strike the blocking version of the sprint with minimal to no gaps.  Maybe TAS could sort of pull this off with SC to t1 (since it is the one that weapon swap allows a cancel for), swap, block cancel, swap, block cancel to SC.  Loop this way.  Shame about some of the cancel limits.  I'll have to do a more detailed breakdown sometime.

Hyper armor for Rain and Artillery.  Sucks for air SC it doesn't even work like a block. Despite ground SC being just a block (not a parry), it still doesn't fold up via GB moves (just jobs to throws like the wraith in this context).  Sort of weird that ice breath works through guard when we can block Boreas ice waves.  Obviously doesn't do a thing for petrification.  R+t was double hitting Boreas Beast.  In close it can miss completely.  Hard enough hits blow through the hyper armor of the held spear specials (and stuff them completely).

No i-frames on the slow-mo pursue (just hyper armor).  (Re)Learning a lot.  Always good to (re)test.  Forgot that spell DMG through shields destroy them.  Probably the same for armor.  I-frames on our counters (not just hyper armor).  Would have tested more, but the game froze when triple air SoE spamming (into air spear toss).  That's enough horsing around for now anyway.  Still, a fruitful bit of dabbling, I'd say.  Really like R+t gaining multi-hit for big boys as with R+T.  Just sucks that R+t trajectory is always fixed and it ain't canceling even for spells much less swaps.  I'd prefer swap work for it and R+s while R+S and R+T both required spell cancels to make safe (as a balancing thing).

NOTE: Having a Saint MOD to give us the Deimos casting cost as the default in tandem with E P% potency on spells, E P% sDMG and E sHP (as it is altered by difficulty for this entry) would be amazin'.  Then play on vanilla VH to see how different things feel with a better balancing with this mechanic."

"For what it is?  That version is serviceable (outside NGR+) for knockback (that lose a ton of relevance for lack of SCALING or HAZARDS to work).  AoS would also take an L with all the knockbacks owing to this being the reality of your favorite.  My thought experiment would take into account how my focus (not Arty this time) would have to behave in the game it was put into.  Poor SoD in CoO would be sad as can be using PS to get no collisions at all.  The interrupt is only okay for the fodder (and to this day nobody has a good feel for the i-frame situation there *more of mystery than the AoS Shield Charge block frames*)."

">guard break
Cute like the higher hit property cases spell canceled into EoA to catch them (preventing burrow *or tech countering their "O" timeout burrow*).  Still very sad for t0a that it is excluded uniquely among those with the hit property.  Really would have been good for it.

>Evade/Sprint light
Not being able to redirect it a bit (maybe not to the DaS2 degree of thrusts) is bad for business.  The most immediately on-sight (raw) option for guard break is the unsafe R+t (which has bad recovery, so it isn't like you can follow-up).  More to dabble in later on this front.

>late block start
It feels super late.  Like over 30f (not my field, but could be bad to the tune of 60f).  Make it a prediction/anticipation thing instead of reaction.  Also, some moves linger (Morph Uppercut comes to mind right away), so if you time out just a bit too soon you get stuffed (if it happen to be right ahead of the girlie instead of a bit behind you along your rush path).

>joy to find
I already knew of R+T for "big" targets, but just didn't realize R+t had it, too.  That long with other particulars (missing in close, being so unsafe, air on-landing cancel tech, air use shallow/deep differences, etc.).

Pretty sure nobody said anything about Deimos reducing spell cost THAT much.  That's insanity.  Definitely makes them more viable (though recovery is still crap, with this you're in a pretty good spot for maybe using means to get MP orbs as realistic fuel for another cast before long).  I was more under the pressure it was talking 25% cost reduction, not down to 25% cost.  This would suggest the ~25MP HoB tap (at MAX) would go down to 6.25MP per cast.

Of course, with 3 tics, my world with it allowing the option to just stop the moment you let go (1 tick of i-frames if you want and no ender), this would go down to ~2.1MP per trick (very usable with a good window surpassing TB/EH *just not free or as fast on recovery*).  Going straight to the final blow would also be a nice option (especially with better DMG and build-up *maybe while losing i-frames for balancing if going that route as to better bust statues*).

I already described a SAINT Mod case (not sure how familiar you are with the difference between E, N/H and VH for RES of foes to freezing in that entry *not a thing in other entries*).  How sweet it would be.  Pity all DMG spells are P% scaling.  Tasting them with more power requires costumes and E for those prices.  Deimos reducing them so much as he does means MUCH more use for utility, but the low P% means they will NOT be killing much.  It becomes HOW you use them.  Legionnaire get halved costs with DOUBLED potency, which is pretty nice for seeing them (even without going to E to double again) actually doing some real work.

Keres grab jobbing to proximity and movement was good to find out.  Piraeus Lion roar beating my HoB i-frames was a surprise (need to test more).  EoA ender shock worked similar to Gravedigger (Zeus) where the R1 is concerned.  Need to do more testing with that 'character'.  I recall briefly dabbling with him not too long ago finding some curious locks (GoZ doing its things).  Rain/Artillery with hyper armor was swell (just tempered by lack of cancels *and interrupt of that hyper armor being possible for heavier blows while canceling the attack*).  Spells through armor/shields as it is with burning slaps (not cores for a full bust ignoring DMG) somewhat reminds of the bugged RotG use in GoW1 for BoC (shield never went away, but you could kill through it *or bug the shield out for grabbing through it*).

NOTE: Allegedly, another disc should arrive Monday, but I expect the same issue (or too scratched to work).  If so, Amazon is off the table.  I will need to find a local place to pick up a more reliable copy with.

Know what?  I want an idea of what MAX costs are like (still stupid that the guide didn't give this info).  *checks*  SoE seems like ~33.3*.  HoB was ~25.  EoA is ~33.3*.  How could they figure EoA merits the same cost as SoE (even with mashing *and one target*)?  Whatever, so baseline on N these MAX look like this:

SoE: 1 per hit (20h) and 6 (?) for the ender?  26 per cast at 33MP, perhaps.  Strong enough to oneshot a Fire Harpling (20HP).  Too weak for Cursed Wretch (30HP). Wright can get the exact values another day.  This is close enough for an idea.

EoA: 0.4 per hit without mashing (only seemed to add bonus 'sparks' like ender).  Potential of 30h (12DMG).  Ender may be 12 with each spark.  Could be the lesser sparks are a quarter that at 3 each.  Really hard to tell.  Very tough to test this as is.  Very clearly surpasses SoE just barely with full focus and mashing on a single target not pushed away (all hits).  Enough to one shot with full potential.  Not without (all hit with ender seems the same as SoE with all hits *26 or so*).  Again, I'd prefer having Wright to help here.

So SoE and EoA are both somewhere around ~0.8 (not quite 1:1) for efficiency (SoE can easily beat the odds with multiple targets).  Mashing lets EoA likely reach 1:1 (if not slightly exceed it).  Not impressive stuff for N at MAX with default Krate.  On E (no cost reduction), you can see 1.5:1.  A start.  With VH and Legionnaire?  2:1.  Pretty alright even without multiple targets for SoE, yeah?  With VH Deimos, the cost is helping, but DMG is suffering.  Barely breaks 1:1.  Beats where we start by default, at least.  More potency (barely noticable) for the cost (far more uses).

Deimos is 100% orb worth I believe, so the 25% of VH is all that factors (which helps a bit).  Legionnaire is supposed to be doubled, so that would be 50% (overall).  Halved potency on returns to fund half cost spells (with doubled potency).  Legionnaire still isn't using them more realistically, but this does help its case for spam.  Robotos having MP drops on hit was cute, but lack of potency in tandem with doubled cast cost and halved P% really, REALLY hurts its case in a major way outside E.  On VH, you are going to be needing some time to get orbs.

I need ~133 hits (pretty much anything works even the 0DMG parry on melee *all equal*) to refill Robotos on E.  Presuming 100% orb worth, on normal the orb might only be 0.75MP each as baseline.  Horrific even before VH drops this to 0.1875 each.  Even if free, that's a lot of parries for moves open to them to get things back, friend.  Robotos is out here with the bad eats for no reason.  Saint MOD taking the orb drop as is while putting it with other boons (not even amending the orb worth) could STILL make it valuable, obviously.  This would be like the UotG case where hit count matters (not potency).  CoC, for instance, would have a place to shine (for orb gathering).  Amusingly, spells works, so they help pay for themselves (especially SoE in groups or EoA on a single target).  With the Saint MOD version, potentially some good stuff going on there.  But that's enough for now."

NOTE: Makes me wish I had just collected old suggestions to improve the tool for this sort of topic, but it is what it is (like the loss of gow3forums, old GFAQs, etc). Also, Royboy, what the fuck is Gokek doing getting emoji rep other than "copium"? You know that jobber warrants only disrespect.