Level Design

This is a topic I have been thinking of for quite some time. There are all kinds of levels out there. They can even end very quickly with some type of plan. It can even be a boss fight like Jetstream Sam in Metal Gear Rising. There are some really good levels like the E1 levels in Doom, the entirety of Devil May Cry 1, and some of the maps for the Dynasty Warriors series. Do you have any maps you want to talk about? What maps do you like the best?

Level design is something I've always appreciated, but on a subconsious level that I couldn't quite put my finger on until I really went deep into Episode 1 of DOOM. If I had to make some picks from games, titles like Hitman Blood Money, Splinter Cell Chaos Theory and most Mario games come to mind - those type of titles really steal the show for me. The Bankheist from Chaos Theory especially is this brilliant multi layered puzzle where you can take so many paths that you want, it's fantastic.

What I love about level design the most, is the spin of ideas. You see this the most in Super Mario Galaxy and 3d World, where they just pump out a new concept nearly every level and build on that concept further and further until it climaxes in the final stage, and then on to the next. Keeps the game insanely fresh.

I dislike it when a game has a great idea for a level, and just throws it out there and never expands on it within itself or in levels afterwards. Feels like a throw-away.

I'm a simple peasant.

I like the straightforward stuff like MGR with some little side areas, but I also don't mind slightly more open areas like what you see in Okami, so long as they aren't like the ridiculously huge open world maps.

I really like coming back to areas with new powers like in Okami and Darksiders.

Souls is good too.

In action games I tend to prefer the straight and narrow though yeah.

I tend to like smaller levels that allow for environmental stuff and change a lot. Mario Galaxy has been mentioned but that game probably has my favorite level design ever, new ideas constantly and not an inch of wasted space in any level, with difficulty that is constantly increasing.

Stuff like classic RE is some of my favorite as well, tight areas with very specific enemy placement that encourage routing and utilizing different paths depending on your inventory and the number of enemies spread around the areas.

For action games, I appreciate when games include the environment into the combat and are always changing up the size/shape of the arenas, good examples would be GoW proper and Evil Within. I don’t mind the “tunnel of enemies” design in stuff like NG2 and God Hand either, I usually just get annoyed when there’s too much non-gameplay.

Good to know! Is there any Levels that you hated because of its design? I enjoy Max Payne 1 but I despise the nightmare levels.

Knack 2 was a really good balance for me. You have the tight hallways and room to room combat arenas, but also some slightly more open areas with some out of the way bonuses.

Also all the hidden areas only accessible by small Knack, taking you to treasure boxes and sometimes hidden areas with enemies.

There's one 'level' where you're scaling a giant robot as small Knack, using parts of its body as platforms. Really impressive segment.

There are always 'ugh' parts for me, mostly regarding collectibles or if there's an immortal enemy following me. Off of the top of my head, these are levels I dislike:

- Resident Evil 4 swamp
- DOOM3 elevator puzzle part (hard to explain)
- the clocktower in Warrior Within
- Air Rock in Golden Sun The Lost Age (just such a long puzzle)
- The Evil Within water sections
- The Evil Within 2 fire chapters (mostly chapter 13)
- Astral Chain's file 08 (basically just minigames)

Stuff like that.

But is 'dislike' a level design issue?

Sometimes I hate the 'immortal' enemy thing. I hated RE2 remake's Mr. X, but not Haunting Ground or Dead Space.

I believe this is due to DS and HG having mechanics designed specifically to not only deal with these types, but to do so in cool ways, where Mr. X doesn't seem to have anything but shoot him till he drops or run a certain distance.

HG has lots of hiding places like closets or under beds, but also tons of on the fly stuff like just standing behind a door or crouching somewhere, not to mention the numerous delay options with Hewie, traps and items.

Dead Space was really cool. When I first encountered that prick it was so stressful and oppressive. Seeing it regen so quickly while trying to figure out how to escape/kill it. I remember going through a thought process lead by the mechanics. Shot off its legs to stop it from moving but it wasn't enough so I completely dismembered it. Then it hit me. STASIS. I was so freaking out that I just forgot all about it. Used it to slow its regen and keep it where I wanted. It was a really interesting, and in the end enjoyable experience.

I think it really just depends on the levels and wheither they align with my taste. The swamp in RE4 is an excellent level, but I just tire of it for some reason. I always have that one section in a game where, upon replays, I kind of hope it was a dream that section was in the game and I don't have to do it.

I'm almost done with HG btw I think, just threw Ricardo off a roof.

>taste
Yeah same for me. There are always segments don't enjoy or even outright despise.

>HG
Nice. That must have been the boss fight.
How are you finding the game so far?

>expands on a idea
Donkey kong tropical freeze is fantastic on this front. Not only does it introduce 1 idea, it tends to introduce multiple ideas and expand upon them separately(but not too far apart) and bring them all together near the end. The secret levels really shine in this regard. Overall, play tropical freeze, it’s a fantastic game.

>game that throws away ideas
Mario odyssey semi comes to mind.

Nadster wrote:This is a topic I have been thinking of for quite some time.  There are all kinds of levels out there.

What specifically in level design interests you? I ask because I too have thought and wrote extensively on this topic in regards to 3D platformers but that can easily extend to action games / horror / stealth. This thread needs p i c t u r e s. Great thread to bust out some game guidebooks with their drawn out & detailed maps. (I even drew up some stuff that has to be reuploaded.)

Do you have any maps you want to talk about? What maps do you like the best?

Personally, I would like to talk about actual map exploration with a group of people here for the Siren PS2 game, which from what I've read requires multiple minds / approaches that would otherwise be insurmountable without a guidebook.

You mentioned Devil May Cry, which I also like for its room exploration-type action (same thing goes for Haunting Ground). -- easy to discuss these here since a sizeable number of us have played it. Shinobi [PS2]- level STAGE 6 is easily my favorite course in 3D *action* games for its drastic depth felt through vertical drops down chasms, laser dodging, wall running jumping. Another recent favorite is using the sword-wielding mecha in Murakumo: Renegade Mech Pursuit on this one mission that is like an aerial version to F-Zero GX's 'Saving Jody' story mission. Big depth! It's the mission where you're cutting open large steel closing doors and going through giant propellers to eventually slice through destroy your target. DC Super Hero Girls: Teen Power ringouts on a small platform stage as WonderWoman in her final challenge and the need for speed flying through this one time attack mission quickly dispatching enemies on the street all the while dodging laser shots and time-eating, springpad-imbued vehicular rooftops as Supergirl was also sublime.

2D-wise: Super Mario Bros [NES] *the blueprint* for getting swimming equally as satisfying as running! 6th gen it's ChainDive (like some crazy fusion of Spider-Man and Shinobi) and Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat for me when it comes to meticulously designed score attack levels.

I played Siren half a year ago without using a guide and had a great time - Highly recommended, just make sure to have 2 things beforehand: The hints from the manual, and this video to learn how the link navigator works (the game has an explanation for it but still recommend watching this): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpdWeCRIfEA&ab

What I love about the level design in Siren 1 and 2 is how later stages will reuse the same maps but place new challenges in them.

I recently played DMC1 and I love the level design and exploration there, but in Haunting Ground level design is much more integral to the core gameplay - The pretty non-linear exploration nature of it combined with all the shortcuts you can unlock play a major role in how you route through the environments and interact with your stalkers and that's what I loved it so much.

On the flip side, this is one of the main reasons the last part of the game falters - Unlike the rest of the game, you are traversing through a linear environment and that makes chases much less dynamic and enjoyable, with barely any routing decisions to take (the last stalker being not so good doesn't help either).

Ninja Gaiden Black also has fantastic level design both in terms of exploration and using the environment in combat, and even NG2 has great levels for a linear action game. The last section of chapter 8 is a highlight in how it mixes combat and platforming together in a glorious set piece that is 100% gameplay.

I also love the Fatal Frame games, and 1-3 in particular have great interconnected level designs - in 1 and 3 you have a singular location, while in 2 you explore 3 smaller houses in the village.

I recently beat my first Mario game, 3D World, and I love how levels consistently bring new ideas while becoming increasingly more challenging, and that extends to the bonus end game levels I just started. It has less movement tech than Prior 3D Mario games but it does make the best out of what it has.

Ape Escape also features levels that are fun to explore, introduce new ideas and become increasingly more challenging, and also reward usage of your gadgets for both exploration/progression and capturing monkeys.

The more I play, the more I'm drawn to levels with elevations. There's a short little fight in KH3 near the start where you fight some archers that are on elevated ground and it's just such a minor thing but it works so well. Same with little rooms like the stripclub in DMC3. Anything but flat ground.

NGII also has a lot of this stuff going on, from little elevations, staircases (and a big one), and the clocktower. Just a lot of things going on. See also: Vanquish.

Elevation can help bring the making trap like mentality due to the fact enemy’s will come to you, which allows you to plan ahead.

>verticality
While melee is my first love, the God Hand edition of Vanquish could wait one more entry (V3). Let V2 be Bogey for avenging Dark Void (in what it tried to do).

GN1 wrote:I played Siren half a year ago without using a guide and had a great time - Highly recommended, just make sure to have 2 things beforehand: The hints from the manual, and this video . . .

Ah, so the manual is critical -- that really helped me in Haunting Ground when I resorted to looking at it.

I recently beat my first Mario game, 3D World, and I love how levels consistently bring new ideas while becoming increasingly more challenging, and that extends to the bonus end game levels I just started. It has less movement tech than Prior 3D Mario games but it does make the best out of what it has.

Oh yeah, that game is super varied and quite charming with enemy / stage design and holdable objects. I thought it needed more bite or at least a warp pipe or two to access later levels with how easy single player is until post-game, but one thing untouched in major debates on that game is the 4 player co-op's inclusion and its effect on the stage design; i.e., fighting for platform space. That's literally one of the major features game reviewers should be getting paid to discuss that I'd pay attention too, but all I remember from major publications was in-depth talk about Halo's LAN when it came to multiplayer. 'Co-op' reviews. NSMB Wii had that ice flower which caused a lot of consideration of friendly fire -- almost felt like a beat-em-up of sorts knocking away enemies by the multitudes with that. 3D World has flux with expansive area -> constricted space with encroaching enemies -> linear running areas. Never got the need for the larger flat fields outside of speed shenanigans.

Ape Escape also features levels that are fun to explore, introduce new ideas and become increasingly more challenging, and also reward usage of your gadgets for both exploration/progression and capturing monkeys.

One thing I'd like to discuss on Stinger forums with pictures is particular level structures that require good camera coordination in action and action/adventure games. Been awhile but Ape Escape from what I remember playing had a bunch of different nooks and crannies searching for small monkeys and the player's character is fairly maneuverable and of smaller size -- now every character is like the same size, same camera orientation, which definitely has impacted the level design.

On the opposite side of that in Mahou Tsukai Kurohime, you can summon these gigantic screen-devouring creatures at any place on the map. Camera occlusion or obstruction if you're in a cramped stairwell -- who cares. Bayonetta 3, from the few hours I played, man that's all flat terrain. So I'm thinking there was a bit of ambitiousness that got avoided by just leveling any type of advanced level design to eliminate any potential awkwardness when making the monsters "properly fit" (i.e. consistent clear view; 0 tolerance for deviations).

Gonna upload some pictures eventually..........

TBH I didn't actually look at the manual of Haunting Ground until after finishing it. In Siren 1 though it's crucial for some objectives if you don't want to use a walkthrough - In Siren 2 the hints are in game, in Siren 1 only in the manual.

Even God Hand explains some moves in the manual that are never explained in-game, like Shoryuken, flying roundhouse kick, using heel drop kick on downed enemies and more. Makes me wonder if devs back then put less explanations in-game because they expected players to read the manuals?

As for 3D World - I don't have anyone to play it coop with but from the little I saw coop play looks chaotic and fun and I would happily try it given the opportunity.

I think the challenge in main game levels, at least for me, was to get all the green stars, stamps and doing gold flagpoles rather than just beating them. I only did a few post game levels but they were all considerably more challenging than the main game levels, 100% completion is going to be challenging and fun I bet. All Mario games are built in such a way that the real challenge begins in the post game?

> manuals
A dying art. I remember some manuals really tried to push you to reading them. Rayman 3 had a ton of hidden tips and tricks and even spoiled some secrets in it, as well as having fun jokes etc.

Nintendo's manuals were the cream of the crop though. Ton of artwork and really well designed.

>manuals
I recently had to check around for GoW1's when verifying some lore stuff, old naming conventions, etc.