Bayonetta 2 (WiiU)

Found this in a bargain bin yesterday. Barely touched it in the past and I've heard mixed opinions when comparing it to the first game. What's your view?

Edit: Just watched this. Explains it pretty well. I agree with some points, while with others I partly agree.


Edit: I've been watching videos about the flaws in this game and found this video interesting.


I really don't find enemies having a way out of what would be infinite combos to be a bad thing. And this is coming from a huge fan of Bayo 1. A lot of games I already play have enemies that can deal with such things. I wonder if people would say the same about Bayo 2 if this was actually the first and only game? It seems these are issues only when compared to the first game.

It can get quite annoying to find an opening only to have it taken away from you by the will of the game, this way it promotes you using quick bursty combos or ranged spam; neither of which are interesting. My personal biggest gripe with the game is that Witch Time is now at the center stage. While in the original it was a crutch to lean on for new comers with the highest difficulty taking it away, here every foe is designed around it and it is never taken away. Most later enemies are nearly impossible to hit outside of it from what I recall and really feel built around "trigger WT, punish, dodge a bit, trigger WT, repeat". 

On all other levels though, it is the superior title. The levels are nicer, look nicer, gameplay is smooth, tons of unlockables (all new content and all old content is in it too (old costumes, old weapons)). It is just the trend of better and more stuff. Online Co-op is a blast as well, had a lot of fun playing that.
Balance is heavily lacking at times, which isn't that bad, though the Freeze > Chainsaw combo didn't get a lot of thought I feel; it wreck nearly everything. Rosa is pretty insane as well and the Rodin-weapon is just bonkers broken, having a single move that makes you really hard to hit, deals high damage and high stylepoints. Some other gripes is that the menu gets clunky, especially with sooooooooo many weapons, making switching and experimentation a chore.

Overall, great action title.

It can get quite annoying to find an opening only to have it taken away from you by the will of the game
I often heard it described in such a way that it seems totally random, but the video shows that it does have rules and there are ways, like just not throwing out multiple hits, getting behind, and of course WT. It seems not hugely different from Knack 2 and TFD.

Knack 2 enemies have parries or guards they can bring up and throw you off, and TFD enemies (at least on harder modes though mostly bosses) can parry whenever. I never saw any pattern to them. At least in Knack 2 you get a feel that they're going to do it, and not all enemies can anyway.

here every foe is designed around it and it is never taken away.
I don't see this as any difference from TFD, which never takes focus away. Though TFD enemies are still susceptible to everything without it.

I do get the complaints though. I just feel that they only exist because the first game exists. What if Bayo 2 was the only Bayo game? What if we just pretend that for the sake of discussion, and look at it as its own thing? I feel the same about NG3 RE (hell even just 3) even though I never played the NG series. I've only looked at videos but I find a lot of hate comes from comparing to previous entries and not how a game stands on its own.

Careful there, I can easily put down a lot of reasons why NG3 and NG3:RE have issues that aren't related to the series; they were badly received by pretty much the whole world for a reason. NG3 is probably one of the worst games I played the last generation, full stop. God of Four is 10x the better game, and you know how much that means coming from me. It really is abysmal.

From bad enemy ai, a not thought out Steel on Bone mechanic (that was never explained and only one person in the WORLD understood), input delay and input drops, unresponsive controls, one note gameplay (just wave after wave after wave), said one note gameplay gets really boring thanks to there being only one weapon, very annoying enemy types, bad healing system (allowing you to get stuck forever, forcing a campaign restart), bad camera, off screen instantkills, laggy co-op that exists purely out of spamming bosses at you and older enemies that were designed around mechanics that no longer exist, QTE's everywhere, a trial and error final boss riddled with glitches, auto-dodge happy AI, Move Support, no exploration or anything else to do besides fight fight fight, auto dodge happy bosses that force you to spam a cheese tactic for 8+ minutes, eventually released DLC weapons absolutely BREAK the game, bow was way too good once at level 3, bosses in general a let down, most being generic trial and error fights with unmarked QTE finishers (you have not witnessed bad boss design until you've faced the T-rex), pointless shuriken weapon.

All that is just based on it as a stand alone game. If I were to compare it I'd also call out the lack of Scarab collectibles, weapon variation would get more hate, the lack of the G-throw, basically all Ryu's platforming skills missing, lack of interesting enemies would get more hate etc. But hey...we got to see him without his mask and be all 'emotional' and have a daughter and a wife (sort of).

Razor's Edge is a pig with lipstick. It is a lot better, but still horrible in a sense.

About the Witch Time, it is mostly an annoyance for me since it forces a big 'dodge first, kick ass later' methodology on you. Later fights, bosses etc. can only be fought in Witch Time pretty much, which is just sad. Takes a way a lot of the fun.

God of Four is 10x the better game
Ok, if you put it like THAT.

But that big list of negatives is actually what I'm after in these cases, so long as they are based on judging the game stand-alone. Notice I didn't praise them, just that I could never get an opinion that wasn't based on previous entries.

Witch time
While I don't mind the mechanic, I agree with your view there. I kind of hope Bayo 3 doesn't have it.

Don't worry, I got the gist. Ninja Gaiden Razor's Edge is a lot better though, far above God of Four. It is really impressive just what they managed to do with the title. To note, NG3 was the God of Four of the series. It emphasized story over gameplay, they really wanted to focus on the cinematic market in the west, they even said this themselves. As such Ryu has a lot of walky talky segments, a codec (no joke), qte's, tons of cutscenes in between gameplay and only one weapon because it plays a part in the story. In the end what you've got is a Ninja Gaiden game without the combat polish, only one weapon (with less moves than originally in other games of the series) and tons and tons of cinematic crap. Add to that a Team Deathmatch and Capture the Flag multiplayer ... yeah. Team Ninja really learned from their failure with Nioh.

this way it promotes you using quick bursty combos or ranged spam; neither of which are interesting.
I don't see an issue with this unless again, you're comparing to Bayo 1.

It isn't really that different than most games I play outside of Bayo 1 and DMC3. Those are the only two games I play where you can go combo crazy. The rest are about either shutting shit down as fast as possible, or combos are generally shorter due to the enemies being able to do something about it.

I don't want to speak out of turn here, but NG, based on what I've seen from high level videos on the highest difficulty, seems like the same idea. That is, using short attack bursts. The reason why definitely seems different. You always have another enemy coming after you where in Bayo 2 it's the enemy doing a combo breaker. Just an observation so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Except, one big difference, Ninja Gaiden isn't built around combos. It doesn't rate you based on your combo-string and combo meters, this game does. It actively dis-encourages what it promotes, which is really weird; that's a problem with the game, not with it being compared to the series. Add to the fact that, as a series, Bayonetta always had the PKP problem of short strings being way too good, and that just adds up.

It doesn't rate you based on your combo-string and combo meters, this game does. It actively dis-encourages what it promotes, which is really weird; that's a problem with the game, not with it being compared to the series.
I don't think this is necessarily a problem with the game though. It is weird that they included a combo meter then make it hard to do long combos, but according to the video, the meter works differently anyway which higher damage attacks gaining more points.

At a glance, it appears to actually be promoting shorter strings until you can get WT and do something a little more extensive, or finding a way to an enemy's back where they can't parry. Relaunching over and over isn't possible, and Wicked Weaves seems to do less damage/knockback/stun than Bayo 1.

In Chaos Legion, there is a pointless combo counter. In a way the game discourages such a thing as well, due to enemy weaknesses and and the goal of getting threats off the screen as fast and efficiently as possible. The combo counter goes up just from hitting stuff, with no reward. It's like they were just trying to ride on DMC's success and threw it in there.

My point is I don't think we need to think anything just because a feature is present. It really seems like they threw the combo meter in 'just cuz'.

Did the devs ever say anything on why they changed all this stuff? It wasn't made by the same people right?

I don't think they ever really noted why they changed it, the team was mostly the same though just with Kamiya being absent. Inaba worked on it personally which is always great, he's easily one of my favorite developers, the guy's record is nearly spotless (God Hand, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, Vanquish, DMC, W101, MGR:R).

In terms of combo-breaker, I don't know it just seems like such a weird mechanic and not thought out. The idea is that you don't want players to infinitely juggle foes, which limits (or focuses) player creativity in combos. Except when done from behind it doesn't work, and it is enemy specific and only after a set amount of hits without pause. I don't know, it feels like it was shoved in at the last second instead of a core mechanic of the game.

Combo Counters and having your whole ranking system be built around it is different though. God of War has a combo counter too, as does Metal Gear Rising, and they are pointless. MGR:R's is just about how much hits you deal and you have to reach a certain number for an S-rank - but that's it. Here, if you don't get your score multiplier up, you can cry your PP-rank goodbye. A combobreaker also staggers you, making it easy for the meter to run dry.

I disagree they just put the combo meter in there 'just cuz', since it's such an integeral part of the series and also just the singular game as a whole. The whole combat is made around flexibility and making your own combos (even going as far as on the fly setup switches DMC4 style). Enemies take slight bonus damage in the air if I recall.

Again I'm not saying the ComboBreaker mechanic is dumb, but I am saying they just threw it in without thinking of the concequences and without actually thinking it through. Right now it barely works, and just leads to boring play barely using the mechanics, or at worst turns the game into PKP until WT hits.

Again I'm not saying the ComboBreaker mechanic is dumb, but I am saying they just threw it in without thinking of the concequences and without actually thinking it through.
Yeah this is why I said 'just cuz'. There are all these combo mechanics yet the game's only wish is the thwart their use.

Since I got Wii U, I've been replaying this game on Hard-difficulty. I just love the core gameplay of the series - being able to equip two weapons at once and experimenting with different weapon combinations, etc. It's just majestic.

Parts of the game do feel a little bit cheap around the edges otherwise? Sometimes it feels like there's way too much non-animated cutscene. The combat can also get really messy sometimes, especially with the increasingly explosive background set pieces. It's almost guesswork when you have to dodge in the fight vs Lumen Sage since there's so much going on on the screen.

Still really enjoyable, though.

Yeah it really is fun to play, I also have to note just how darn colorful the game is compared to the drab brown/grey/brown of the original. The over the top visuals do get in the way I agree, the first fight with Lumen is especially bad. Also not a fan of making Lumen and Robin exclusively playable in the co-op. Really liked the co-op though, fun system that also benefitted the singleplayer (Halos).

The story..yeah. I remember the first also having this problem. Than again, I'd rather they do it like this than commit tons of gameplay resources to cutscenes.

Yeah, that's a good point about resources. The story tends to be bizarre fluff in this series anyway, so some cheap looking cutscenes aren't such a great loss... Gameplay is king.

I finished Hard-mode and I think I've now acquired most of the weapons in the game. I guess Rodin is still gonna take a while to unlock...

Rodin takes a while to unlock, but once you unlock the third hidden character you can nuke him pretty easily. Note that Bayo2 does not penalize you for using items, so you can spam away.

Does this game have any old save bonuses?

What do you mean?

I'm guessing a bonus from having a save from the first game?

I haven't played many games that have this. I think Curse of Darkness is the only one I've played like this, that I can think of right now. There will be a valuable item near the start if you have a Lament of Innocence save file.

Yakuza has this as well, but I don't think Bayonetta does. Ninja Gaiden and Devil May Cry both had it too. If you'd beaten the original you immediately had Hard Mode unlocked in their "Special Editions".

Didn't know that about DMC, though my versions were all over the place. I started with EU DMC1, then US, EU DMC2, EU DMC3, US DMC3SE. Not only that, I've always had like 5 memory cards due to games like CL only having 5 save slots, so by chance, nothing carried over.

No idea what chapter I'm on but just fought the Lumen Sage with their battle monsters in the background.

Even on normal he was dodging a lot but also attacked constantly so plenty of opportunities for WT.

Got the bow and love it. It actually feels really similar to the bow in MHW believe it or not. I'll be keeping it as my main weapon and will see what fits best with it. Why do the enemies turn purple? Is it poisoning them? I keep forgetting to check their health meters because there's usually too much going on.

Fought some shield enemies. WT opens them up but weaves seem to guardbreak them too. I isolated one and was just jump cancelling on top of it firing arrows and bouncing off with Afterburner Kick.

Noticed another hit state where the enemy is slammed into the ground like an angelic tent peg.

Also unlocked what looks like flamethrowers.

Flying stages suck hard ass.

Yeah, it's really clear how the heavy hits get you the PP rank. Even if you take damage you can still get PP.

TFD does something similar. Each action has a point value but you can spam the same action. What this leads to is an issue with your power level where you'll kill entire groups, even on the hardest mode, way too fast. You actually need to draw out fights to an extent and gimp yourself. I usually did that anyway with D-rank weapons otherwise you might not even see the mechanics.

It leads to retarded methods like this.

> flamethrower
Their alternate fire, the iceblast, is absolutely broken. You can freeze bosses and then go for the chain-saw combo for a quick melt.

>Ice
It barely seems to work. I managed to freeze a few regulars but they took more than a full stream. Nice to see the ice cube throw return, but once it's held by the hand, you can't target the frozen enemy. I was trying to throw it into arrows but it just wouldn't work because the arrows didn't recognize a target.

Is there any sort of bomb like Durga? I love setting that up in Bayo 1.

Just did the Lumen Sage 2. Awful fight.

Even on normal, he dodges pretty much everything at any time. I'm not against bosses dodging, but not ALL THE TIME. It makes no sense. I had to chip away slowly. Even WT didn't open him up that much. Not even close to Jeanne.

The giant bosses are already annoying, and the flying segments are absolutely awful. Way worse than anything in Bayo 1 in my opinion.

So far I like some things but not others. We'll see how it goes.

> Ice
Hold down the button, you need three full streams iirc to freeze a boss. Then you use the Salamandra's hold-attacks to just melt things. Works on all settings.

> flying segments
Found them much easier to stomach this time around honestly. Especially thanks to the Star Fox outfit haha.

>flying
I don't mean the rail shooter types. It's those ones where Bayo has wings and can still do all her regular attacks.

There was a fight like these in Asura's Wrath, in one of the DLCs against Yasha. They're both fighting while falling and I just despised it.

Oh those, yeah those were a tad weird but I honestly don't mind them so much. The one in Asura was absolutely horrible though, I know exactly which one you mean against Yasha.

ffs ANOTHER one! I feel like it's every few levels now.

Underwater sucks.

And what's this? Forced walking?

Pretty sure the forced walking is only once iirc when you first encounter the kid, but my memory could be hazy. Underwater was pretty cool for me, didn't mind those as much.

Seems most of the problems people have with Bayo 2 aren't an issue for me.

Regular enemies have been good so far, but bosses pretty terrible. Same as Bayo 1. Sadly there has been no Jeanne equivalent.

Only real improvement so far is that button mashing sequences are easier. You barely have to touch them to get max. The bow is also a cool weapon. Still need to unlock the scythe and whip though. The whip was one of my favs in Bayo 1.

The Whip is pretty different here, but still great. The lack of QTE's and mash-actions being easier really is a plus, I might be getting old but I honestly can't even complete some of them in Bayonetta 1.

They're a huge improvement for sure.

Got the whip and not sure about it yet. Is it still capable of the grab and spin?

So far I've only made it pick up and slam. You can control the direction. Also saw it grab two enemies at the same time but not sure how I did it.

This game is really making me want to go back to TFD but I said I'd try NG3 next.

Done.

Can't say I'll be touching this ever again. Glad I finally got it over with.

Will see if I can get my hands on NG3 tomorrow.

In the end, since you played them side by side - which one did you end up enjoying more? The first or second game? NG3 will be great fun to witness, wonder if you'll beat it.

Note that the game is just a masher on Normal, start on Hard for at least some challenge. Master Ninja is where the game really just breaks down.

Both have elements I like and dislike. I think Bayo 1 wins in the end. When I think about 1, I want to play it again.

Not so much with 2. I liked the bow, and the new enemy states, but not the dodgy bosses, giant bosses, and flying segments. The last part absolutely sucked. Hated fighting all those giant angels again.

Bayo 1 has a better whip in my opinion though I will say I haven't figured out how to grab two enemies yet and couldn't spin them in 2 if that's even possible. Probably unnecessary since in 2 it has huge coverage on basic attacks.

I also love Durga bombs in Bayo 1 and combining them with the whip or sweeps.

>NG3
I'll probably play normal first. Not really playing for challenge at present. I'll just be getting used to the controls.