Sifu

Looks pretty interesting, from the makers of Absolver. I really wanted to get into that game but it didn't align with me at all. Think this looks pretty fun though, lots of enviromental stuff.

The only halfway intriguing thing from that abysmal show. I’ll keep my eye on it.

I kinda like how the hallway fight reminds me of that movie The Raid. Seen that one?

And yeah the showing was pretty 'meh' all around, granted I didn't watch it live.

I hope this title focuses more on the combat system and less on the souls-esque levels and online mechanics. Just give me some cool levels you know.

This one piqued my interest. Agree with Infinity on the show being abysmal. I am curious about Returnal and this game, though.

I see where you're going Roy with the Raid reference - Sifu looks to be more inspired by action movies and martial arts movies than other action games. It'll need a good combat system at it's core but it could be a lot of fun to play a more "grounded" action title, if that's the right term. I think I saw that it's coming out for PS4 and PC too, so no need to buy a new console yet!

Anyone picked this up yet? IIRC it's available for PS5 now or something, saw some people playing it.

The deluxe version allowed for (I think) 3 days early access, but some sort of PSN screw-up has meant people have only gotten to start playing today (with the proper launch being tomorrow). To be fair to the devs, they've been active on twitter throughout the whole incident and have said they're working on something extra for deluxe edition buyers as an apology, even though it doesn't seem to be their fault.

I think I'm gonna pick this one up - the gameplay I've seen looks fun and reviews seem mostly positive with a hint of "mixed", which oddly makes me feel more reassured than 9s and 10s across the board.

If I'm bored tonight I might get the deluxe edition (if you have PS+ it's discounted and works out about £3 more than the standard version ), or if not I'll probably get it tomorrow night after work. Anybody else tempted?

I saw Iconoclast praise the game on Twitter, which is about all I needed for me to bite the bullet (almost). I'd really want to try it, but with the house and unpredictable future, I'm keeping my cash on a tight leash for a spell until we settle...

... which is what a smart man would do, but I fully can see it happening that I'll buy it in the coming days and have some explaining to do to the missus hahaha

It looks a bit Arkham-y for me which is concerning but I’m probably going to get it anyway because I’m an idiot.

Picked a random review to see if I could get an idea on the game play.

Not saying I trust them, but they mentioned it being a but like Arkham, and having something like Sekiro's posture mechanic. Two things I never wanted to see again.

From footage it does appear that the character zips to the next opponent. Not like Arkham full screen jumps though.

Don't yet understand attacks, are they like GH strings or individual inputs?

Going to need to see some solid info before deciding.

Saw some reviews, I do like how the game is structured i.e. five short 10 minute levels but with high difficulty and appeal to mastery. Don't mind Arkham myself, always liked those games. If I pick it up I'll let you guys know.

Oh God the cultural appropriation people are going at it.

Read that there are some cool single hit abilities like a sweep thst leads to a free down attack.
Liked the sound of one that lets you instant throw items like bottles without having to pick them first. I assume that means you skip the grab and aim animation? Does he just flick them off the table or something. I also read you can kick stuff like stools into people. Might be the same upgrade.

People will always find something to complain about. Even saw the classic "this isn't a button masher like Bayonetta or DMC, you really need to think here". Wonder how long it'll take for them to call it a Soulslike.

IIRC there are no upgrades to get. You start fully loaded.

Read moves/abilities are age locked. Is this true?

Wouldn't know, few reviews I saw made a note that you couldn't unlock things, but might've been mistaken. As noted I don't own the game.

Read you can repeat levels to grind for points to buy stuff. Can open level shortcuts.

But it's like $70 here.

Played for a few hours. Made it to the third level, replaying to get a better age. I have some thoughts.

The Good:
-Game starts quick and has little to no bullshit in it.
-Difficulty is high which I think most of us here would agree is a positive.
-There's a decent number of options in combat, including sweeps, focus attacks, collisions, weapons in the environment, etc.
-I like the health system, where you regain health just by defeating enemies, and the amount you restore can be increased through upgrades.
-Speaking of upgrades, you gain access to them either by dying or at certain points throughout each level. There is some cool stuff, like kicking objects at enemies, and getting some strong focus attacks.
-The aging system does really encourage consistent skillful play, and replaying levels to try to keep your age as low as possible is kind of fun.
-There's a semi God Hand-esque dodge system, when you hold the block button and tilt up to jump over sweeps and tilt down to dodge most high attacks.
-Enemies can hit each other with weapons which is funny.
-Collisions are quite viable and well implemented.

The ehh:
-Most of the Arkham stuff I don't like is here. Enemies glide and magnetize toward you with each attack, there seems to be very few multi-enemy attacks aside from weapons, and the camera is a mess and moves way too often.
-Basic things are acquired through upgrades, like recovering from certain attacks.
-Upgrades themselves are weird. You unlock upgrades but only for the duration until you die of old age. To get permanent upgrades for your character regardless of age and what stage you're replaying, you have to purchase them five times. Extremely egregious when you consider about half of them shouldn't even need to be purchased in the first place.
-Bosses seem very Sekiro in nature: you get your ass kicked until you learn their moves, then win by playing a friendly game of Simon Says.
-The levels seem a bit uneven. For example, the first level can be beat in about 10 minutes and is pretty simple. The following level is probably 3x longer and has fights containing way higher enemy counts, with successive minibosses.
-It's a personal thing, but I can't help but feel that for all the fancy animations and camera work with the finishing moves, the game really lacks impact or crunch while fighting. Not sure why a goofy ass game like God Hand pulled this off so much better.

I plan to do some more experimenting since I haven't really messed around with the different combos(as of now I can't tell much of a difference between them). Overall, it's pretty solid so far I'd say.

> animation
I could (and probably, should) write a thesis on the animation of God Hand and why it's so excellent. The core of the matter is the same reason as Splinter Cell. They used mo-cap and then used that as reference while animating instead of having it BE the animations. Add propper SFX and little other effects and you've got a game bursting with impact compared to this game of wet slaps.

> upgrades are abilities you should have by default
Wondering when we'll get a Mario game with an unlockable high-jump and triple jump.

> sekiro bosses
T_T

> the rest
I'm sounding a bit negative, but the rest does sound super cool and I'm probably going to pick it up when I finish with KH:RECOM.

Really hate the bosses. The combat itself is fun, if a bit DDR-ish, but these bosses that are nothing but “remember their attacks until you win” sort of suck the enjoyment out of the game.

I need to stay off other forums. I’m seeing comments praising this as some masterful, deep combat system, when it’s a pretty good take on Arkham. There’s some depth here but it’s nothing compared to what I was wanting. I watched a couple no death runs and learned nothing, since the game is so strictly about remembering patterns. That’s not a good sign.

I'm playing it too. I agree mostly with what @Infinity_Divide wrote, combat is moderately interesting but bosses are too restrictive. They are not only very pattern-based like in Sekiro, but their patterns are also extremely simple. The first boss is a complete joke, the second one does always the same combo with a little variation in the last phase, the third one seems able to mix high and low hits more. If the other two bosses are as good as the third one, then the final result will be acceptable but not completely satisfactory.

Normal enemies can be decent threats especially when they are with one or two elites, but when you start to dodge more or abuse i-frames (sliding over tables, for example) they cease to be a problem.
This game desperately needs a hard mode, because it's too easy to do no death runs right now. I did the first two levels without dying in a few attempts and I didn't use any shortcuts. Full no death runs were available on day one, so all the "easy mode controversy" is very strange to me. I understand modern gaming is easier than Sifu, but even Souls and Sekiro are more demanding.

It's still good enough to play if you don't expect God Hand's quality, but "only" a good 3d beat 'em up. I love The Raid 1&2, Old Boy and all the martial-art references so it's a joy to fight like a sifu (=master), I like the gameplay-first mentality, the aesthetics and the upgrade system (base moveset is solid, purchasable skills are useful but not indispensable). I hope upcoming DLCs will add some brutal modes, otherwise it would be a pity.

>I’m seeing comments praising this as some masterful, deep combat system
These will be the type that hate good action games like Bayo/DMC/NG and the like, because they can't do all the complicated stuff. Games like Sifu let them feel like they can do everything and win so they call it deep and masterful for that reason. Same old.

Won't be touching this.

Okay, I'm dealing with (or should I say stuck at) the final boss right now, and here are some thoughts.

Pros:
-Aside from the slow intro, the game has no downtime. It surely is action-packed.

-The continue system of this game is not only conceptually intriguing but also shows the evolution of arcade games' continue system. It makes people WANT to master the older levels, but with their own phase.  

-defensive options(dash, block, perfect parry, weaving&short-jumping) are varied and each has its own clear merits.

-perfect parry has a really short window, which means it's not easy to always rely on it. It also means that people won't likely go with one single method to deal with every problem.    

-Environmental hazards (fall-death, stair-fall, wall-crash, throwable objects) are the true king of the grand game design. Every countermeasure and combo you will make is chosen, or amplified by these objects. You can engage in the fight against defensive enemies by kicking the bottle or chair to destroy their position and punish. You can throw the enemy off the ledge or stair by using throwing and sweep attacks. Since there are a lot of dangerous enemies coming toward you at the near-end level, this environment manipulation becomes the main ammunition of your gun. And I really love the chaotic situation I can pull off with that.

-Healing system is simple but very fitting to this game.

-There's a hidden spare-the-boss mechanic in this game, which is kinda gimmicky, but it also makes you have an additional goal that changes your strat. (you have to destroy their structure twice in their second phase before their health goes down to 0) Pretty neat I should say.

-Not related to the mechanics, but the third and fourth levels are truly eye-festival. The art direction is fantastic.

Middle Ground (Some good some bad depends on the taste):
-Yes, this game's combat system is entirely built upon automatic move assists like gliding enemies and kinda inconsistent tracking speed, but most of the time they can be negated by good positioning.

-There aren't many enemy types, but the normal goons themselves can change their attack patterns by holding the weapons lying around(I know it's a classic AI behavior that has been made since the older beat-em-up games, but it's still fantastic), and some random super-saiyan mode can stir the arena in a fun way. (Imagine the devil transformation from God Hand, but much more lenient)  So, yeah, even with the low amount of enemy variety, the arenas are pretty dynamic. Though I wish there were more champion enemy types.

-Bosses are pattern-heavy and very punishing when we interrupt their combo(which is why they seem kinda restrictive), but the defensive options and countermeasures alone can make some variations in the gameplay. For example, It is possible to destroy the structure meter of Botanist's 1st phase with the weave-punch-wall-throw combo since there are many walls in the boss arena. Surprisingly not many people didn't use that. Also, many people consider that the third boss is meant to be played with the waiting-game strat, but I realized that the structure damage she gives is quite low, so I dealt with the first phase with full-on perfect parry strat which is quite similar to Sekiro. I think some people can deal with her with constant weaving&short-jumping, which is kinda impressive in a sense. What I'm saying is, the bosses are not that DEEP in the whole action game spectrum, but they surely accept different playstyles.  

Cons:
-I think some enemy attack patterns are frustrating to deal with because of the lack of telegraphs. Note that I'm not a Fighting Game enthusiast tho.
 
-Yeah it is realistic that punching people irl doesn't make a bomb sound, but even considering that, the sound feedback should have been more explosive.

-The Second Boss is unnecessarily punishing considering that he is still an early game boss and the patterns themselves are quite simple.

-Honestly, The skill tree exists for the skill tree's sake. all the combat moves should have been opened from the start and only non-permanent-stat-boost from the dragon statue should have remained in this game.

-Camera collides with the wall, which can lead to some unmanageable stuff like the things in God of War Reboot.


Overall, I can give this at least 4/5 for the pure enjoyment I got from this game. But I have to say, I could have loved it even more if they fixed the Cons.

You touched on some things I completely glossed over, good points.

>continue system
I would also agree this is a great next step for the traditional lives system. It’s a great way to give players a lot of leniency to finish a level(without just making them able to credit feed forever), while also giving them the incentive to replay and master levels.

>environmental hazards
It really allows for sort of “fighting dirty” that I wasn’t expecting the game to allow. The third stage really shows how important these options can be for defensive enemies and those with a weapon.

>super saiyan mode
It’s random right?

>skill tree
I hate it. Don’t even get a chance to try most of the moves.

>It really allows for sort of “fighting dirty” that I wasn’t expecting the game to allow. The third stage really shows how important these options can be for defensive enemies and those with a weapon.

Yeah. Stage 3 and 4 are fantastic in that regard.

>It’s random right?

From what I've played, there are some predetermined enemies that can turn into super saiyans, but only one of them in one section will turn into one. I also liked that killing super saiyan can reduce the whole number of death bonus counter.

Got Sifu as a gift from a generous friend who wanted me to play it. I have to say I'm a bit surprised by it, both good and bad. The game is far easier than I thought it would be. After a short 4 hour session I was already at the final stage at Age 31 with a lot of moves unlocked.

Some general notes:

- updodge is way too good since so many enemies lack any sort of ability to counter it. Very few enemies have a sweep and you tend to lock these down first as a result. A lot of bosses are completely triviliazed by updodge like Botanist, Sean and CEO.

- I dislike the bosses from a mechanical perspective. They're the typical "die until you know my pattern" with just enough "this moves looks too similar to the other". Since you basically have to replay a stage to get to them makes it even more of a easy way to lengthen the game for casual players. On the flip side, when you know their pattern they are so easy it's almost criminal.

- the combat is a bit symplistic. Light-strings serve no purpose, they are competely outshined by heavy-strings since speed barely differs and enemies have a set 'three hit' opening after a parry/dodge, meaning you get three free strikes.
After that the only real decision left to make is "do I Palmstrike? Or do I sweep?". If the opponent is next to a wall or enemy, you Palmstrike for high posture damage, otherwise you sweep into ground-pound. YY <>Y is a true combo against bosses too, which just nukes them. A regular push-string into running sweep is also really good, but I admit to just doing a NUR since it's hard to get used to having moves you sometimes don't have access to.

I'm curious if a replay at max-abilities will change my outlook on some moves but generally speaking I don't see a use. Most of them are slow-startup and offer little in large engagements.

- i am happy with the basic kit though, all the moves you need are there honestly. The rest feel a bit like filler and add little to the overal flow.

- I REALLY like the Age system, i think it's a great mechanic. It's a great modern take on 'one more coin' while also having some gameplay mechanics to it i.e. older-sifu deals more damage but has less health.

- Focus Moves are generally bad, with only Eye-strike being a stand-out since it opens for a free two-hit combo (generally Y<>Y or Y<>X). Absolutely melts bosses.

- the level 3 boss is the only one I can't get a bead on, not sure what to do there yet in her first phase. Second phase is cake.

- I like how you find shortcuts for previous levels in later levels, that's a nice way to promote replaying stages.

- the difficulty scaling is super weird. Stage-1 is perfectly done as a starter level, but stage-2 feels like overkill for a first-time player (first time I 'died of oldage'). Stage-3 is super easy barring the boss and stage4 and 5 almost feel like tutorial missions in how freak'n easy they are. Ironically Stage-2 loses all threat once you find the shortcuts and learn how to handle those muai-tai guys/galls.

- agree on the lack of audio and visual stimuli. I always appreciated how games like DOA, Batman and ofc. God Hand had such impact sounds and great sfx. Here it's like I'm hitting people with a wetblanket.

- a lot of the 'cinematic kills' are too long and too similar.

- I like the 'motivated enemy' idea, gives the combat a feeling of randomness when he might pop up. No idea what triggers it though.

- it's a super missed oppertunity that there's no nunchucks.

- have to give credit for a great opening. Having you play as the villain and then as the student 'training to murder them' during the opening credits was a great way of doing the tutorial. Consequently, I hate it for being forced on replays.

- the female model is super weird, feels like something they added late in development or something.

- the voice-acting is superbad. I get that this is probably a reference to old martial-arts films, but it's just bad, not funny bad.

- love that enviroment aspects are so promoted. You can use the enviroment to divide enemies, or to knock them downstairs or throw things at them. It's super flexible. Really good.

- I disagree that the defensive options are well balanced. I only dodge to reposition and never perfect-parry, I only up-weave.

NOTE: for whatever reason I'm using Xbox icon-names. Deal with it hahahah

Damn, and here I took 10 hours to beat the final boss and 15 hours to see the "True" ending with Scareless Achievement. Maybe this forum is full of monsters.  

>I disagree that the defensive options are well balanced. I only dodge to reposition and never perfect-parry, I only up-weave.

I'll be honest, I'm not really good at reading enemy moves unless the animation has long tells, so I couldn't always rely on ducking especially when the enemy with fast start-up shows up.
Here's how I received the defensive options.

Ducking: The main dodge tool for normal goons, but I felt like using this is quite risky when there are kung-fu-move users and knife users in the enemy roster.

Short jump: Since the down strikes are hard to predict, It's hard to pull off this move, but once you successfully nail it down, you are guaranteed to make a counter-attack. Though I will never get comfortable with it.

Block: For me, it's the best way to deal with the fast or off-beat attacks by sacrificing a bit of structure damage. Shouldn't be heavily relied on because the player's structure won't last that long. (And that's how I use dash moves more often)

Semi/Perfect Parry: At least it is worth a try when the opponent relies on fast combos. (Like the third or final boss) Mashing the block button guarantees to give some structure damage to those guys.

Dash: Useless as a dodge-to-counter-attack move, but still a good option to escape from the crowd and find a new position.

But I can see that if you can read all the pattern chains, the weaving becomes the most dominant option.

>YY <>Y is a true combo against bosses too, which just nukes them.

I couldn't pull off any <> moves consistently (especially when the arena is overcrowded) so I stick to ChargeY & Grab or vanilla XXX or Y.Y combo. Maybe I should try that option if I can.  

>Focus Moves are generally bad

I thought the heavy sweep kick is a good jail-free card when things get out of control. When things went messy, I kicked off the elite ones first and deal with the normal goons while they are on the ground. (That's the best part of the skill. It makes the enemy lying on the ground even longer than the normal sweep kick.) But yeah, I agree with that focus moves are supplementary moves. Not as crucial as the roulette moves from God Hand.

>Stage-3 is super easy barring the boss and stage4 and 5 almost feel like tutorial missions in how freak'n easy they are.

I thought the raining gallery, the artsy combat corridor, and the ninja(?) invasion in the cluttered cave arenas were hard as hell. Maybe I haven't got good enough. But I have to admit, stage 5 feels empty even though it might be thematically appropriate.

>agree on the lack of audio and visual stimuli.

Well, looking at Absolver(their previous work), I think this sound style is their way of expressing the hand-to-hand combat aesthetic rather than a design choice made for the gameplay. The difference of each punch sound is really subtle.  

>the female model is super weird
I thought the female protagonist character looked nice. Eh, depends on the taste. I just like the tomboy aesthetic.

> full of monsters
hahaha, I wouldn't go that far. I'll see if I can't upload me playing Stage 2 or w/e tonight to give some insights in my playstyle.

> the up-weave
It's not something I do on reaction mind you, I just pump it out until they stop attacking. Updodge works against basically everything, except some knives which I tend to priortize to hell and back.
Shortjump is pretty dangerous but since there's only a few moves that it works against, it's easy to put it in your muscle-memory with some practice I feel.
I think they just made the updodge too lenient, you can get pretty far just mashing it out.

> final boss
Only faced him once, couldn't quite get a grip on how he works yet, but I think I'll beat it tonight.

> dodge
Agree it's mostly good for a reposition. I tend to use it when surrounded and I need to relocate asap, I'm surprised by how much ground it covers btw.

> <> moves
The input is pretty lenient, and you can do them at any time in the combo which is fun. Experiment a bit with them I'd say as they seem to be the 'core' of the combat honestly. Palmstrike is your basic push, while sweep is a great CC tool. If you do Y<>Y and immediately hold B you're pretty safely i.framed for a bit which is neat.

> Focus
I use it more to pause the engagement sometimes, to get a better overview which is nice. Heavy Sweep is nice, but I tend to just dodge away instead and save it for eye-strike. For example against Sean I do YY<>Y as a punish into ground attack, then Eyestrike into Y<>Y as a punish again. It's a solid 25% of his HP gone from one punish which is really solid. I admit to not really playing into the posture a lot with bosses. Might be something I can explore more, especially considering the third boss.

> super sweep stays grounded longer
Now that I didn't know, good note! I can see that adding to its vaiability.

> stage 3
I have to note btw, I really like how this stage has so many enviromentals. The part with the giant kunai was brilliant.

That aside, the only fight that sometimes gets me in that stage so far is the final wave in the raining-room (two leg girls and sumo-man). There's another fight early on that's probably really hard, but I cheese it by throwing the massive collection of lightbulbs haha.

> stage 5
Yeah I was surprised by how timid it was, barely any fights with more than 3 people.

> Stage 4
Really disappointed by its boss, beat her on my first try without a single death. Was expecting her to have a third-phase or w/e but she was far easier than Sean.

> Sean
Want to give another mention to him, this guy really seems overtuned for starting players to give them a false sense of "omg this game is super brutal". He has a really nasty change in phase 2, once he gets beyond 50% HP his moveset nearly doubles in speed and his shoulder-check attack suddenly has a low-followup instead of a high half of the time, really messing with your muscle memory. He's basically designed to overly punish players after a very long stage and setting them up to fail. Phase 1 is just 'lol mash updodge' only for phase 2 to bum rush you out of nowhere.

Also anyone have any idea what's up with the DJ in that stage? I found a way to get to him...but nothing happened, just got an option to talk to him and that's it.

> female model
Could very well be a taste-thing no doubt, don't know, I maybe expected more differences visually, but she looks pretty similar to male-sifu, also in attire.

NOTE: i am very much enjoying the game btw, I tend to sound a bit critical since I just like talking shop, but I'm honestly having a blast and am looking forward to doing some challenge runs in it like max-age or a NUR.

> super sweep stays grounded longer

I just checked this out in the training room. The normal sweep kick gives around 4~5 seconds of downtime and the heavy sweep kick gives around 8 seconds of downtime. I assumed the time with my brain clock, so there might be some error range. But I'm pretty sure it's a good amount of delay to make a difference in CC management.

> Stage 4

The fight could have been more interesting if she had more short-range counterattacks in her sleeves when players rush to her without thinking. She has a cool character design tho.

> Also anyone have any idea what's up with the DJ in that stage?

Do you mean the nerd on the top floor? Yeah, somehow he is a genius hacker so he will lend you a USB if you have found the CEO's locked computer and talk about it.

> I tend to sound a bit critical since I just like talking shop

Honestly, critical analysis in video games is a fun chill talk unless the game of the topic is being called garbage by someone. (That's when the talk becomes the battlefield.)

> stage 4 boss
Fully agree on the design, also generally just liked her encounter's moveset. But in the larger-picture, I'd have probably made her the stage-2 boss.

> DJ
Ah good to know, haven't gotten all those items yet. I really like the way the game is structured in that sense, it has a nice eb and flow going between stages and the XP systems makes it so that repeat playthroughs always offer something i.e XP.

> garbage
You mean like DMC5?

Joke joke :p

Beat it and played for a few more hours after. Have some final-ish thoughts since I don't feel compelled to play any longer.

Pretty much everything I said before still stands I feel. But there's one major thing about this game that I don't see anyone saying: it's just not very deep. The lack of options and simple but rigid enemy design makes the encounters play out kind of the same. So I can push or sweep enemies, and hit them two or three times before they're back to magically dodging and blocking everything I do. Great. There's not a lot of proactive offense, at least not compared to the action games I really love. I've seen comments saying this game is more complex than SoR4 and I'm just like...how the fuck did you reach that conclusion? Even if we're just talking number of things in this game, it's severly lacking.

It's not just how few things you can do as a player, the enemies are really not well designed imo. There seems to be only 4 or 5 movesets enemies have. You have your basic trash who do one or two hits at a time, the women who sweep kick, the heavies with the stupid grabs, and enemies with one of two weapon types(neither of which are very different). The random speed and tracking enemy attacks have is just absurd and makes no sense. Just make the entire game take place on an ice skating rink if enemies are just going to glide at me with every single attack, regardless of spacing or what attack it actually is. This makes every enemy more or less the same; their attacks are going to inevitably collide with you, so start dodging and attempting to parry like every enemy, so you can get a couple hits in before they start dodging and blocking again. Again, this uninteresting and rigid design just leads to a shallow experience for me.

It is odd that most of my favorite things about the game aren't core mechanics but supporting ones, like the health and aging system. If they were used in a combat system that didn't have me go "okay, let me intercept this attack so I can do something" every time, I would probably appreciate them a lot more.

The crazy praise I'm seeing for this game is a lot like Nu GoWs; claim the game is exponentially more deep and "complex"(lol) than it actually is, shit on other games to prop up your shiny new product, and dismiss any criticism as "git gud". When I said the bosses were weak on GFaqs due to the memorization aspect I was met with "guess you never played Dark Souls". Not sure how that's relevant to this game, but I guess if that's how we deflect, then sure.

Probably done with it. I enjoy things about it but trying to replay it and get some more juice out of it is just annoying me. And I will hate the Arkham shit until the day I die.

I bought the game a couple of days ago, wanted to play another session tonight before posting my thoughts.

I really, really didn't enjoy my first few hours with the game. I almost gave up playing altogether. Really wasn't feeling the loop of losing all my upgrades on a game over, and having to grind to unlock them permanently. Having to pay for an upgrade 5 times while you already own it really does feel like padding for the sake of it. I'm not sure if I like how the Shrine upgrades aren't permanent, so if you want to bring all your favourites with you then you need to replay the full game every time you get agame over. Sure, the game is probably only 1-2 hours depending on how many shortcuts you want to take, but it's more padding. The game really is designed around making 2 hours of content last as long as possible. Having said this, they have made the structure work though. I like how you can discover items in the later levels that unlock areas in the earlier ones. It'd be nice if they contained gameplay rewards though, instead of lore-related collectibles.

I also didn't like that my punishment for dying was receiving a health nerf - yes, you get a damage boost, but if I'm dying a lot then clearly my weakness is using the defensive mechanics. I suppose the idea is that it encourages you to "get good", but they're assuming you're going to improve quicker than your character degrades. If you don't...well, you're in for a frustrating time. I don't mind a hard game, but I don't like games that waste my time.

After my second session I got to grips with things a lot better, and started to enjoy it. The Club boss was a bit of a bastard, he was the difficulty spike everybody said he was. I've fought him a bunch of times now and his first phase is a piece of cake, just down-weave. Second phase is a little harder as his sweep is quite hard to react to, but you'll still do a lot of down-weaving. I was amazed how much easier the third and fourth bosses are. I've gotten to the final boss but he demolished me pretty handily. I need to go back and improve my Stage 3 and 4 performances.

The combat is reasonably satisfying, but the almost "turn-based" approach does get tiresome. As Infinity mentions above, you do a dodge/parry, get a couple of hits in and then the enemy completely nope's out of your offence and launches an armored attack. Your opponent goes, then you go, and repeat. It feels very structured, not a whole lot of room for creativity. I agree with the points on enemy variety and depth, too. There's just not a whole lot to it. It's fun enough for what it is but a lack of options hurts the long-term replay value. I felt this was especially true in the early game when you're without most of the upgrades. I'm not really a NUR type of guy, I get the most enjoyment having access to all my options.

Let's mention some positives, as I dont want to completely shit on the game - I do like it, actually. I really appreciate how action packed it is. The levels are short and sweet, minimal stoppages for story time, and when cutscenes do appear they're skippable. It does feel like a modern throwback to the old-school days of Streets of Rage, Double Dragon etc. I think the art direction is pretty good, I like the minimal aesthetic. I think the museum might be my favourite level, but past the first level I think they've all got cool looking stuff going on. There is some really fantastic animation on things like attacks, weapon pickups etc. For a fairly grounded action title, the combat is snappy, responsive and quite fast paced. I have to respect the devs for putting out a title that was clearly going to be divisive. In an age where everybody is looking to shove out live-service crap and sell you stuff that should already be included in your purchase, I appreciate they made a game knowing it isn't for everyone.

I think it's a good game, but I can't see where scores of 9/10 come from. That would put it up there with the all-time greats of the genre and it's just not at that level, for me. I mistakenly hoped this game would be my new Urban Reign, but the search continues.

I just played a couple hours, not really getting it yet. The good, then the bad:

As mentioned the structure of the game is cool, nice take on the arcade style. Big fan of the environmental interactions with objects, ledges, and so on. The weapons are fun and I like the dynamic of getting enemies to drop them. Pacing is also good, pretty much just all action with nice level lengths of 10-15 mins. Satisfying animations for kills. Unlocking new routes in the levels is a nice touch.

Skill system kinda blows, RE4 this is not. A lot of the upgrades should just be base (the object kick), and 5x XP cost for permanent is annoying. If devs think the XP management is important, then make me unlock it every time. If they don't, then add the skills to base kit (or maybe lower the perma-upgrade cost by a lot if the concern is easing players in).

I really don't get the offensive flow of the game in general. It's not that it's too defensive (I play Monster Hunter after all) but more the nature of the systems. Wallslams and sweeps make sense, they're cool. But for the rest it feels like I just have to memorize the strings of the enemies to find the designated time I'm allowed to interrupt it. Like I'm not opposed to some memo, it comes with the territory, but it feels more arbitrary than systemic here. You can space out some strings which is nice, but it's kinda weird and takes longer. Hopefully I'm explaining my point coherently.

Bosses suck, the usual stuff, see Sekiro.

Overall it's not a bad game per se, but I'm not clicking with it so far. I'll keep messing around and see what I think after a while. It does give me the urge to play ZOE2 some more though haha.

Also beat it yesterday, the final boss wasn't really jibbing with me nor do any of the bosses in general. I've been looking at some other runners and most seem to forgo weaving in favour of blocking/parrying for higher 'posture' damage, which seems to be the way to go. Every video shows the same play though, wait around, parry/weave until opening, attack three times, rinse, repeat.

It's really disheartening how action-bosses are seemingly just streamlined out of existence this way, while making the actual propper bosses like Noah Prime from Astral Chain shine even brighter (and make you embarresed by this game).

Special mention should go to Kuroki, which I honestly cannot figure out and I don't think a lot of players can either. So far everyone I see, even veteran action players, just either a) use the dagger infinite b) bring a melee weapon to block her attacks.

> depth
There's some creativity in terms of combat setups, which I feel are overlooked. I can understand overlooking them though since it sometimes makes you wonder 'why use them' if you can just slamdunk everyone with sweeps. But for example YY into Palm into running Slide is a great combopunish, or a YY into grab into running slide or wallbounce into the charge attack. You can get creative. The fact that enemies have multiple states and you can put them into those is fantastic and the cornerstone of any great action game, and this game has it.

The downside is that the enemies all work with the same 'three hits and its my turn' style of play, and most arena's aren't large enough to single out foes for the funky stuff.

The depth absolutely vanishes the second bosses show up. It becomes simon-says on crack at that point and I really just don't feel like doing those fights at all anymore haha.

Also still haven't found a single use for most of the upgrades lol haha

> it's the most deep game since Souls
I mean, these people barely play games let alone hard ones and will forget this title exists when the next flavour of the month releases. It's like taking to heart when someone never watches movies but says Man of Steel was solid gold. Why bother replying to that you know.

It's dangerous to let that sort of thing sour your experience with games like this though. It's easy to see the faults, but if you take a step back it IS a full-focus action game with minimal storytelling and enemies that are actually aggressive to the point that they can wombo-combo you.

Sure it's not as deep as the greats, but don't let the overhyping on other platforms sour you too much to a decent title I'd say.

> aging system etc.
Agree this really is the highlight. It's easy to grasp, unintrusive but with great reporcutions. It's a really fun twist. I do agree the stat-changes are a bit weird, you'd almost want a higher healthbar so you can 'test' more, but logically it makes sense. You get older, wiser, so you hit harder but tank less hits.

> you go I go
I'm super, super confused at times by this system as well. Some bosses sometimes allow a 4 hit punish, Yang once allowed me to do a full 8(!) hit combo on him, and sometimes enemies just randomly let me hit them. I haven't found a single consistent flow to it. You can also see this in Iconoclasts' run against Yang, at one point he did a large combo on him and you can see him trying to emulate it the entire fight but it never works again.

Side closing note: it's super cool to see a new game that we're all playing together, or a least some of us.

> Kuroki
Her second phase is pretty simple, another one where you can pretty much just down-weave your way through. The first phase seems a lot tougher, though. I personally felt the animations of her weapon attacks were a bit ambiguous. I feel it's quite hard to tell with some of them exactly when they're going to land, whether they're high or low etc. Maybe I just need to practice it. I keep forgetting to pick up the staff and take that into the fight, which would help.

> Boss Punish
Forgot to mention this in my last comment. Sometimes you'll land an attack on an enemy and you get a brief "slow-mo" moment, where the game is basically shouting at you "DO A BIG PUNISH NOW". I have absolutely no idea what triggers this. As you said Roy, it seems quite inconsistent, but maybe we just aren't aware of how it all works. The only thing more annoying than the "your turn, my turn" system for bosses is having turns that can seem random in length.

> We're all playing
Agreed, nice to have a new title that a lot of us were prepared to jump into. That's a bit of an achievement itself!

> Kuroki
Yeah to note, I'm exclusively talking about Phase-1. I agree her second phase is far more timid. Just not really sure how to handle it, it's made to weave but her attacks all look alike and some have very, very quick startups.

> superduperpunish
I'm not even sure it's connected to the slow-mo, maybe it is though, good note, because I know what moment you mean.

Would be interesting if we could get some damagevalues, as the 'atatatatat' attack for example counts as 'one attack' for the punish limit. So maybe Y-pause-Y into Palm would be a solid punish.

Some enemies having inate sweep resistance also is weird. Game has so many of those weird quirks that I can't place haha

It is an unusual game, in good and bad ways. It's sometimes very pattern based (maybe too much), like other traditional action games, and from time to time it'll throw that out the window and take the Urban Reign path of having few "true" combos and giving enemies a chance to block/evade/resist just as the player would. There's a mixture of learning/memorisation but also making shit up as you go. I think, on paper, this sounds a cool idea, but it's all in the execution. If it confuses the player or makes encounters less enjoyable then maybe it wasn't designed so well. I think there's times when it works and times when it doesn't.

Random thought, has anybody tried using the slowdown from holding Focus to help with reacting to fast attacks? Not sure if it would work, depending on how quickly you can evade after leaving Focus. Can you block while you're in Focus, I wonder?

I tried using Focus ala Roulette from God Hand to slow time and get some overview, the downside is that there's an actual start-up and cooldown to it, meaning there's a few moments before and after in which you can't move/block/dodge which is basically a deathsentence haha

Few random notes to add to the pile:

- I killed the Botanist 6 times in a row trying to 'spare' him, I kept pressing the kill button haha. He's frightfully simple when you figure him out. Just stand in front of him, he only has two moves then. One is 'slash' which you can easily parry on reaction, send is a blockable sweep.

- I still have no clue how to do the 'enemy grab' consistently,

>Some bosses sometimes allow a 4 hit punish, Yang once allowed me to do a full 8(!) hit combo on him,
>DO A BIG PUNISH NOW". I have absolutely no idea what triggers this

Sounds pretty bad.
If it really is random, I hate shit like this.

Maybe there's a hidden stun meter or hit count you have to meet before getting a bigger opening.

Just beat the final boss at age 57. Went into the fight at 32 or something, it took a turn real fast.

I still have the same complaints but the game does seem to grow on me every time I play it. I did enjoy how you were pushed into mastering the early levels to improve your chances for the later challenges - thematically quite appropriate, too. More thought put into it than your average release in 2022. There is a bit more to the game in terms of options/enemy states than I originally gave it credit for.

Not sure when I'll next play the game, I could try and improve my runs but I should really get through some of my backlog too. Glad I gave this game a shot, though. I believe a future update has been announced with selectable difficulties, so maybe I'll check out the Hard Mode when it drops.


> Hit Counter
I reckon you're probably on the right lines with this, but I couldn't say for sure. I'm sure it'll be figured out soon.

Oh wow, Mayo is also making a tip video out of this. I wish they don't patch out the infinite sweep kick. Seems really fun to try out. (And surprise, surprise, it doesn't work on bosses.)

>I'm sure it'll be figured out soon.
Yes. You will.

What you want to do is just repeat a basic string. Count the hits until you see that effect. Repeat. If it doesn't happen again under those exact conditions then it probably isn't hit count.

Could be a hidden stun meter of sorts. Would be harder to determine.

>Yang once allowed me to do a full 8(!) hit combo on him
Could be something to do with the power of your hits. Are there light and heavy attacks?

I do have to say there's something addictive about the combat flow, if you use the arena and its items to your advantage you can quickly find yourself in a very fun playstyle. Once you just stand still and do heavy-attacks with the occasional sweep (which is far superior) the game becomes dry.

> patches
The game got a pretty weird patch yesterday, which removed the ability to hold "O" during a sweep to instantly go into a ground-pound. Very weird change. They also nerfed some fights like Sean and the dual-disciple fight before him. Apparently Sean was the first boss they made (they note so in the patch-notes) so they felt he was overtuned.

> hard mode
Heard about this and I'm a bit confused by how they'll do this, I mean aside from enemyremixing or upping values (or OHKO mode) I don't really see this game being flexible enough for higher difficulties.

> hit counter
I think I figured it out, but I'm not sure. Enemies simply have moves that offer a 'hard punish' under certain pre-designed conditions. For example the overhead-kick from Botanist, if you weave it you get a 3-hit punish, if you perfect-parry it you get a 5 hit. It's...weird.

> mayo tip video
I swear to god if God Hand came out today we'd get 15 minute videos splewed with ads explain how to cancel a High-step-kick into a up-dodge.

>It's...weird
Yeah it is.

Punishment determined by how you defend against certain moves.

When you say 3 or 5 hit, what exactly are you doing? Are these set strings?

> Patches
That's hilarious, because I thought I'd gotten a lot better - turns out they nerfed the biggest fights I struggled with, haha. I noticed in Sean's second phase he did his low attack a lot less frequently. I think he may have only done it once, maybe twice. They really didn't need to nerf the fights other than maybe slowing down a few attack animations very slightly, but even then that's debatable.

I thought I was going crazy as some of my ground grabs weren't responsive, couldn't figure out what I was doing differently. What a pointless thing to nerf. Not game breaking but definitely worsens the flow of things, a little bit.

> Hard Mode
If the Hard Mode is just a OHKO mode I definitely won't be playing it. It needs to offer something of a different experience, not just be the same game but you need to be perfect. Given the theme of the game, I could see them doing this, which would be disappointing.

> Mayo
To be fair, I think games should really teach players about cancels (if they're intentional). I started playing games when I was 4 and didn't understand the intentional use of cancels until I was maybe... 18? So I went through the vast majority of the PS2 and 360 lifespan not knowing what cancels were and why they were useful. Think of all the games I must have sucked at, haha. There will be a lot of people that don't know simple stuff, so I think it's okay, even if it seems trivial to people like us now.

Did some more run-work, just got to stage-5 at Age 20 with all bosses spared. I have to say the combat is a lot more fun when you start to just derp around with moves and setups, since it's so easy to optimize I kind of avoided that. A lot of moves are more stylish than useful, but there's fun in using them.

Bosses I've found are more exploitable than I originally thought, Botanist and Sean can be fought up front while with Kuroki and CEO you can stand at mid-range. If you do so, their moveset effectively halves. Kuroki Phase 1 only has two moves available at half range, and CEO only has 1(!!!) move which you can easily block until her posture breaks. It's a bit exploitive, but honestly the fights just aren't interesting.

Note that the patch really was a big nerf to the double discipline fight and also to Sean. You now get a 'full' punish after weaving his sweep, while the disciplines only use a single move in that fight (so no 50/50 setups that overlap). They also have less health I think. It's super dumb.

Minor gripe: the game always saves your best 'age', but never overwrites the best one either. So if you beat a stage at Age-20, you're stuck with those Shrine Upgrades, which sucks, even if you do a full replay down the line.

I live.

Played up to stage 4, so far my impressions are a mixed bag of what's been posted here but obviously there is always something to address.

>I've seen comments saying this game is more complex than SoR4
It's fun to see SoR4 being brough up here because every single time I play action games with "just frames for massive gains" I'm reminded that SoR4 is probably the only action game with a decent chunk of depth nowadays that hasn't resorted to parries.
Note that while I think the parry system in Sifu has a decent amount of thought behind it(needs to mixed with weaves, needs to keep an eye on Posture), the game's defensive options are... kind of demanding? It feels like it draws too much from the game and while in games like SoR4 the path to mastery involves a lot of experimenting with your moveset to deal with the huge variety of mobs, Sifu on the other hand will involve you spending most of your time choosing your best dodge/parry options for every string and then just countering them accordingly, sure it works(look at YS) but I guess it could have been better, specially when the most fun of the game is throwing stuff  at mobs(with a move that needs to be unlocked of course, thank you roguelikes).

>You can get creative.
That's probably the best way to squeeze some extra fun out of the game I guess, it's kind of funny that the only tech discovered so far ends up being a massive buff to sweep out of all things. Could really see some new stuff found for most of the moves but so far the more I play the more I realize that the moves that stand out at first sight are going to be best ones up to the end.


All in all, so far it's a great game to give it a go once(and maybe a few more when new patches that aren't nerfs drop) but in the long run it's not a game I'll feel like replaying much.

Beat stage 5 boss, I like the game more than initially. Wallsplats and environment tricks are fun. Bosses still the worst part by far. I'll probably get the true ending then finalize my thoughts.

> 5 lives
welcome back!

> moveset
Yeah the more I toy around, there's fun to be had but honestly you can just Palm+Sweep the entire game and probably kill things way faster. It's like the inverse of GoW's SST. In there SST is done by the audience, while grab-usage is far superior. Here grab-usage and other setups are more fun, but just mashing Palm 3 times in a row is way better.

> bosses
Agreed. They're especially weird to fight when you lock down their moveset. I find it weird that in one of the first action-games to have an honest-to-god High/Low system, it barely fucking uses it. Only like three enemies in the game have a low-attack, there's only one true mix-up in the game (Yang has a followup that can go high or low at the end of one of his strings) and enemies don't have a high/low block.

It would've been better, imo, if they had removed the parry and just played with the high/low while giving enemies the same restriction in terms of blocking. Because right now there's no 'way around', if an enemy is hit three times, it is now his turn no matter what you do. Sure you can do the low-attacks, but most enemies have multi-hit attacks so you'll get hit anyway. Would've been cool if you saw your foe block high, that you could sweep, or if they blocked low you could do an overhead. Think that'd add a lot of interesting plays to the game just by that alone.

Because right now non-threatening foes are fun to fight, but once you reach the harder foes it really is "block/dodge until opening, punish, repeat".

>I'm reminded that SoR4 is probably the only action game with a decent chunk of depth nowadays that hasn't resorted to parries.
Not to sound super jaded(as if I don't anyway) but I'm sick of parries and iframe dodges. They've outstayed their welcome and have become a shitty replacement for depth and proactive offense. Not that I hate all games that have these things, but when these options account for most of what the playerbase is focusing on...not good.

>All in all, so far it's a great game to give it a go once(and maybe a few more when new patches that aren't nerfs drop) but in the long run it's not a game I'll feel like replaying much.
I've picked it up back up the last couple days but it's not holding my interest. Just feels like there isn't much meat on the bones and the room for experimentation is really low.

>I find it weird that in one of the first action-games to have an honest-to-god High/Low system, it barely fucking uses it
I do wonder what the point of enemy low attacks was, other than a gotcha to make memorizing attacks slightly harder.

>Because right now non-threatening foes are fun to fight, but once you reach the harder foes it really is "block/dodge until opening, punish, repeat".
Yeah, I've been thinking that fighting the trash is the best part of the game. High tier foes and bosses are just too dull.

Edit: Mayo must really be starved for a good combat system(and channel content) if he’s pumping out 7 minute long tutorials for things he could explain in 30 seconds.

I'm honest to god stuck on my no-death run in Chapter 4 (Tower) of all places. I'm surprised by how lethal a lot of these fights are on a NUR. There's some pretty hefty encounters where a single mistake means death since you have such a small HP bar at max-age. Kept slipping up in some situations here and there which was nearly always death. If I can just get to the boss I'd probably cream her. Surprised as I thought Chapter 3 would take more tries, but I did that one in a single go.

> parries/dodges
I think it's more their singular application that's getting sour. It's really "enemy is stuck in hyper-armour until moveset is finished" that sucks the most, as it makes parry/dodge so important. Offensive doesn't give you the ability to hit or avoid. I think God Hand did it best with its counter-hits, but NG and DMC also have a lot on offer on that front.

I think if they gave enemies super-armour instead of hyper armour, perhaps for just one hit, during their attack animations, it would already change a lot of things.

> trashfights shine
Yeah they're by far the most fun. I like how they sort of 'disguise' the enemy types by giving them different skins.

> Mayo starving
Not just him, every content-creator I feel. There's a distinct lack of 'hype' titles these days that flock income probably.

> gotcha low-attacks
It's mostly that. There's a few 50/50 mixups and some attacks look so similar you'll often forget in the heat of the moment "oh yeah this one goes low" only for your muscle memory to dodge high and get clipped.

> punish
Did some experimenting, I still have no clue what makes the 'slowmo punish' trigger, but I did manage to construct the ultimate punish haha:

Heavy > Heavy > ForwardFoward Light > Heavy > microwalk/dodgeforward> Heavy > Heavy > Heavy > Palm > Followup sweep > ground pound

It just fucking melts. Even works on Yang if you get the slowmo punish off on him.