Armored Core

@Omar
Sorry I missed your comment. For me it's not a positive thing. It doesn't feel like that thing I liked coming back from the grave. It feels like a Body Snatcher impersonated that thing I liked and now the internet is trying to gaslight me into thinking it's fine because of the vague similarities.

(me on the internet)
https://youtu.be/WuL2QwsNeM8?t=164

Gabriel Phelan Lucas wrote:

Infinity_Divide wrote:While I get that customization is a large part of these games, is it really satisfying(or good design) to have to swap out weapons and parts constantly because you're so limited by weight and energy? And now that certain bosses and missions almost require certain kinds of weapons, the problem is even worse.

That's always been part of the series, you couldn't beat certain missions without the right parts/weapons or would be hard pressed to do so(bio-sensors are needed to lock on to bio-weapons), although how strict varied per entry(4/4A was the most lenient I find as opposed to Last Raven). At least you can change your parts at checkpoints now(same with V).

It sounds like your not building optimally. Legs determine weight limit. There's an OS upgrade(weight control) that lets you deploy while overweight and purge weapons(shouldn't be an upgrade mind). I've seen a variety of builds tackle the same stages/bosses adequately so I don't see the problem, could you give examples?

>Anyone saying this isn't a Souls game is in denial, or lying to themselves. It's all here: stamina, stagger, estus, dodge/punish bosses. Small movesets and the only way to expand is to equip different shit.

Armoured core introduced stamina 12 years before souls(come on). Stagger I've already covered(it's more integral now). Bosses with telegraphed avoidable attacks isn't knew as V/VD had this(exusia, black glint, grey lotus). Estus is true no argument there(it's still optional).

Movesets where initially limited but expanded over time, it's a shooter first with some melee of varying degrees of viability.
you could only equip 3 weapons in Gen1 up to 3(4 if we include exceed orbits and 5 in Nexus onward with hangar units) with 3 introducing dual wielding. 4/4A let's you equip 5 weapons(2 arm, 2 back and 1 shoulder or 7 total with hangar units) and 6 let's you use 4 weapons active at once(the most so far). You're definitely reaching with this last point. Not saying anyone has to like any of this, but it'd be disingenuous to act as if some of these aspects weren't already present

Some Souls and modern design influences are undeniable which is entirely expected because FROMsoft is a highly iterative developer. I don't have a problem with most of the changes but I sympathize with those that do.

AeternalSolitude wrote:Also the new OS chip system is basically a skill tree. Which is so not AC.

True but Last Raven introduced tuning points(stat boosts) which carried over into 4/4A.

Regarding hard lock, true I can't argue there, radar being gone sucks too.

Great come back arguments here, holy shit lol preach brother.

I just finished Chapter 1 and yeah, this game rules.

I mean AC6 has surprised me because I'm an avid FS hater. I dropped all their games, I've also dropped every SoulsBorne in existence, yes I've never finished any due to hating the stamina systems, bonfires, clunky combat etc) but I'm digging this game due to the high octane, fast paced combat, impactful weapons and the big one here: LENIANT CHECKPOINTS!

Not doing well on a boss? Press start, select restart checkpoint and boom, back to the begining of the boss fight. I don't have to die then waste time "running" (at a snails pace) back to the boss for another 10 minutes. 

My opinion may change but so far I'm having a blast!

No offense but I don't think the counter arguments Gabriel made are all solid. Especially in regards to comparisons with past AC games.

You can say the stamina system in AC 6 is fine because past AC games had it. Vanquish has what is basically a stamina meter but few here would criticize that game in the same way they would a FROM game. That's because the actual reality of how the systems work during gameplay is vastly different. In traditional AC games, meter management is a way for the devs to encourage technical and efficient movement on the part of the players.
AC 6 uses it to limit aggression by increasing melee consumption, dodge consumption(this seems to be even more when used to cancel the recovery of an attack) and limiting regen while in the air (something no previous AC has done to my knowledge. Maybe Gen 5?). This is the souls approach.

You can make the excuse that the Estus-esque system is optional. But the increased damage enemies, and especially bosses, do is not. Previous AC games understood the fact that you were in an "Armored Core" and that the utility of these machines was to absorb damage, making most fights battles of attrition. Which it still kinda is a battle of attrition in AC 6 with all the stray shots and all. But with all these stray shots now having the potential to send the mech into a coma (beyond moronic) and opening the player up to larger attacks, all the sudden it doesn't feel so optional. Unless you A. learn the boss pattern completely. Or B. Delete with broken build. This is the souls approach to game design.

And in regards to the Hard-Lock you can keep making the excuse that AC 4 had the same thing so it's ok. But that's not true either. The thing the example video Gabriel linked fails to demonstrate is just how evasive enemies, and yourself (not to mention the frequency of multi enemy encounters), can get in AC4; guaranteeing constant lock-breaks. And when you consider the fact that the actual object of dodging in traditional AC games was not to evade individual attacks but rather to break your opponents lock and confuse their targeting, it renders the hard-lock, at best, occasionally a useful tool. It meant that sooner or later every player had to graduate from their Huggies, put on their big boy pants and actually learn to pilot their mech. You can think of it as AC 4's version of Bayo's Auto combo system.
AC 6's approach to a hard lock system is completely different. This approach is to keep the enemy in focus at all times and to simplify the control burden on the player so they can focus on avoiding and punishing telegraphed attacks. This is the souls approach.

And finally the dumbed down movement and what kills AC 6 for me.
Can I even call it dumbed down movement? It's not really. It's souls movement with jet boosters. So needless to say all the depth and intricacies of learning to control a mech is just completely gone. This was at least 60% of why I liked AC in the first place, so yeah this ain't winning any brownie points from me.

But none of this really matters because the Core of AC 6 is not an Armored Core at all. It's a Soul's Core with some AC icing on top. No thanks.

>imagine playing Halo
Never played it (my experience with shooters is super limited), but I get the point. It might be because you're tired after playing so many games with it.

Though I should clarify that I would certainly appreciate workarounds to Stagger, namely in XIII (and in other games, it's better if it was a traditional Action game). There's Poison, which removes some percentage off an enemy's HP per second, but I think that's it.

@AeternalSolitude: No offence taken as I don't necessarily disagree with what you've said mind, just presenting that some aspects where present in some form(which isn't the problem but the execution) and I also addressed some concerns with hard lock in my response to Paul Allen which I was writing before you started commenting so there was some overlap in our comments.

>AC 6 uses it to limit aggression by increasing melee consumption, dodge consumption(this seems to be even more when used to cancel the recovery of an attack).
There is definitely more emphasis on melee now(much more variety and another point of comparison to souls) and they can be used with no EN. EN weapons also only overheat and don't drain EN anymore(one less build consideration).

>limiting regen while in the air (something no previous AC has done to my knowledge.
I had noticed the limited airborne regen but was wondering if there where builds for greater regen but haven't found any so far, but quads can hover for extended periods.

>Maybe Gen 5?
You can regen no problem in the air, although it's the only entry where you can only hover but not fly, especially with scan mode active(used for fast en regen and scanning foes for their weaknesses). I went through most of VD as a RJ sniper in the air.

>Regarding the increased damage model:
I've seen it's possible to no damage(or at least minimal) a number of stages/bosses so far(still designed with guaranteed damage in mind of course). One of my favourite aspects of 4A specifically is how the speed and aerial mobility made it possible to no damage(or minimal) some stages/bosses. Not that this changes anything mind just a design aspect they have in common.

Gabriel Phelan Lucas wrote:

There is definitely more emphasis on melee now(much more variety and another point of comparison to souls) and they can be used with no EN.

I mainly use my energy blade after an assault boost. This uses EN or am I wrong?

->(still designed with guaranteed damage in mind of course)

I don't even mind this. My problem is that all the little homing missiles and stray bullets add up over time and cause a sit. When I was fighting the Sea Spider boss there were a few instances where I bumped into it's leg (which can become an active hit box at strange times), which didn't cause any damage worth any concern, but it would cause a sit down and than I would eat some big attack that would take out 70% of life or something.

Alright after some testing I understand what you meant by melee not needing energy. I thought you were saying it didn't consume energy my bad. And I was imagining dodges consuming more energy when used as a cancel, that's not the case. The dodges just take so much EN that it was messing with me.
I've also been using a Reverse Joint mech which can jump pretty high in the air. But limited regen in the air is really fucking with me as I often can't dodge once I'm on the ground, cause now AC is about dodge rolling. Hurray.

The new combo system in the game is also just really energy consuming.

AeternalSolitude wrote:I mainly use my energy blade after an assault boost. This uses EN or am I wrong?

The initial boost of the attack itself costs EN but in this stream you can clearly see at 19:15, he swings with 0 EN which is something he and the chat notice.
[/quote]

My problem is that all the little homing missiles and stray bullets add up over time and cause a sit. When I was fighting the Sea Spider boss there were a few instances where I bumped into it's leg (which can become an active hit box at strange times), which didn't cause any damage worth any concern, but it would cause a sit down and than I would eat some big attack that would take out 70% of life or something.  

I can see how bothersome that can be. They clearly want you to heal to compensate. I prefer lightweights too so I'm going to have to account for this. How difficult is it to reliably avoid the spider's legs?

-> Avoiding spider legs.
Easily by not going anywhere near it. So high damage mid to long range weapons would be in order. But there are some significant advantages to hanging out under it's body. It has a big cannon turret on top which can't hit you at all if you're down there, and it's very weak to the pile bunker. And I like using close range weapons anyways. Problem is it's always fidgeting causing little insignificant dings, add the odd stray bullet or missile to the mix and you got a sit-down just waiting to happen. The Sit-down btw causes a huge amount of knock back which will send you flying directly out from under it and into the line of sight of the cannon.
I mean it's not a hard boss so there isn't much to complain about really, but it does highlight how truly awful the stagger system is.

AeternalSolitude wrote:No offense but I don't think the counter arguments Gabriel made are all solid. Especially in regards to comparisons with past AC games.

You can say the stamina system in AC 6 is fine because past AC games had it. Vanquish has what is basically a stamina meter but few here would criticize that game in the same way they would a FROM game. That's because the actual reality of how the systems work during gameplay is vastly different. In traditional AC games, meter management is a way for the devs to encourage technical and efficient movement on the part of the players.
AC 6 uses it to limit aggression by increasing melee consumption, dodge consumption(this seems to be even more when used to cancel the recovery of an attack) and limiting regen while in the air (something no previous AC has done to my knowledge. Maybe Gen 5?). This is the souls approach.

You can make the excuse that the Estus-esque system is optional. But the increased damage enemies, and especially bosses, do is not. Previous AC games understood the fact that you were in an "Armored Core" and that the utility of these machines was to absorb damage, making most fights battles of attrition. Which it still kinda is a battle of attrition in AC 6 with all the stray shots and all. But with all these stray shots now having the potential to send the mech into a coma (beyond moronic) and opening the player up to larger attacks, all the sudden it doesn't feel so optional. Unless you A. learn the boss pattern completely. Or B. Delete with broken build. This is the souls approach to game design.

And in regards to the Hard-Lock you can keep making the excuse that AC 4 had the same thing so it's ok. But that's not true either. The thing the example video Gabriel linked fails to demonstrate is just how evasive enemies, and yourself (not to mention the frequency of multi enemy encounters), can get in AC4; guaranteeing constant lock-breaks. And when you  consider the fact that the actual object of dodging in traditional AC games was not to evade individual attacks but rather to break your opponents lock and confuse their targeting, it renders the hard-lock, at best, occasionally a useful tool. It meant that sooner or later every player had to graduate from their Huggies, put on their big boy pants and actually learn to pilot their mech. You can think of it as AC 4's version of Bayo's Auto combo system.
AC 6's approach to a hard lock system is completely different. This approach is to keep the enemy in focus at all times and to simplify the control burden on the player so they can focus on avoiding and punishing telegraphed attacks. This is the souls approach.

And finally the dumbed down movement and what kills AC 6 for me.
Can I even call it dumbed down movement? It's not really. It's souls movement with jet boosters. So needless to say all the depth and intricacies of learning to control a mech is just completely gone. This was at least 60% of why I liked AC in the first place, so yeah this ain't winning any brownie points from me.

But none of this really matters because the Core of AC 6 is not an Armored Core at all. It's a Soul's Core with some AC icing on top. No thanks.

Previous AC games do sound cool. Which one would you say is the best? I'm interested in playing now.

> vaati played all games so he's more qualified
Vaati could play all 56 Megaten games and still not know what he's talking about. Time spent =/= knowledge imo.

> That section of skin has been shredded to the bone
Massive lol

> stagger mechanic
Haven't fully be following, how does it work in this entry?

> FXIII
It's an interesting mechanic, but it's been done to death since then. The basic gist in that game is that hitting weaknesses fills up a bar, when it is filled up the enemy takes bonus damage and is suspectible to launchers. It's a nice system as you really have to 'time' the moment carefully when you stagger the enemy as you want it to happen at a time that you have all your resources available to lay on the hurt as much as possible and keep him airborn.

> Halo with stamina
It's a miracle this hasn't happened yet.

> meter filling game
Granted, WoLong and Nioh at least try to change things up. In WoLong if you fill the bar, you can decide to cleanse it (finisher move) or keep it tiny and make it even smaller with each future punish, while Nioh does it's own thing. Sifu really didn't need it though. It's cool and fits, but they could've done more with it (or less).

> bored of it
Fully understand. My eyes tend to roll when I see it in general, mostly since it's rare to find games without it. Hell, even Street Fighter has it now with Drive being a twist on the formula.

Royta/Raeng wrote:> vaati played all games so he's more qualified
Vaati could play all 56 Megaten games and still not know what he's talking about. Time spent =/= knowledge imo.

More so than Pineapple(another souls player), your taking things out of context now, don't disagree with your statement mind but I don't appreciate the misrepresentation. If you watched his vids on AC it's clear he did bother to learn the mechanics(not all equally nor is he great mind) so he deserves credit there at least, especially given his primary audience that he's addressing isn't familiar with the series(he could've easily misrepresented it). With this in mind I don't think your comment is appropriate to this context.

> deserves credit
Vaati is a known sellout, which is why I'm extra cautious with the fellow. I personally love DS2, but it was pretty clear he was drinking the coolaid at the time when he kept pushing how it was the best thing ever since he was being paid good money to say so. Not that I blame him. Guy's gotta eat.

That said in general I'm pretty interested in AC6's takes since I see such a giant split. I see some herald it as 'vanquish 2', others as an insult to what came before, others saying it's the best AC has ever been - not a real concensous (even amongst retro fans) which is honestly quite interesting to read.

Any information if this game will hit GP btw? Doubtful but would be cool.

@Royta/Raeng
Fair enough I'm only speaking from the relevant content, thought it was all a fair shake but there's better takes to be concerned with anyway.

I hope I've made clear I'm looking forward to playing it but I'm well aware and excepting(but still cautious) of the changes(bank holiday Monday so it's still in transit). It's got enough AC to keep me interested but I can except it as something else(so long as it's good). Definitely the most contentious even topping 5thGen; 6 seems to have integrated some of its changes, namely the level density and verticality(which is interesting) and the much meligned exaggerated stagger state(not the meter just the stun state itself). Never liked how it was there either.

Can't speak for GamePass(correct?).

Stagger shit is even in turn based games these days.

What this does is force stun/crit playstyles that suck ass.

I played the first 2 missions and first arena fight of AC4A today and afterwards started AC6 proper, only played 6 missions but gonna continue tomorrow.

I enjoy AC6 a lot, but I already see some design decisions I don't like that will probably hurt my enjoyment: melee attacks on cooldown, the stagger system, and at least on the starter mech, the stamina meter drains really fast - You can only dodge 5 times before it drains, and flying duration is also too short.

In contrast, in AC4A melee is tied to your stamina meter like the dodges, but the meter drains much slower which also means you can fly for a much longer duration, as well as dodge and use melee much more freely. I didn't use lock on in AC6, but it still feels like in AC4A keeping targets inside your reticule and successfully using melee attacks is more challenging.

I got momentarily staggered in the first arena fight of AC4A, but it wasn't anything like the stagger meter of AC6. I think the mech used an electricity attack on me that stunlocked me for a brief moment and that's it. In AC6 on the other hand it feels like there's too much emphasis on staggering enemies and DPS'ing them while they are staggered, and I can only hope I'm wrong.

I won't play AC4A until after I'm done with AC6, but my first impressions of AC4A were more positive. AC6 is really fun, it's just hampered by some modern gaming design decisions.

>done to death since then
On that note, is XIII the first game to have introduced this? Or perhaps the most known game (relatively speaking)?

@Gabriel

Reading back my posts from yesterday I can see that I came off as being pretty douchy towards you. I was expressing frustration at not just your comments, but also arguments I had heard in other parts of the internet defending design choices in AC 6. I was probably in my subconscious looking for an excuse to go on a rant and when I found one I took advantage. And while I stand by most of my arguments, I also certainly said a few stupid things (like claiming that you consumed more EN when canceling an attack, which I've already addressed as being incorrect). Nonetheless I don't feel particularly proud of how rude I was to you, and so I apologize.

@RayyanHayabusa

I'm not sure I could tell you which AC is the best. I haven't played nearly all of them and I am definitely not an AC expert (simply having played any AC seems to put you in a rare crowd). But personally I really enjoy 1st Gen AC games (PS1 era), though I'm yet to play Master of Arena.
The PS1 games are much faster than the PS2 games, and I always found the shards of chunky metallic PS1 polygons that fly off the machines as they get obliterated to be very satisfying. Another thing I like about the PS1 era over the PS2 era is that the boundaries in the missions and arena maps are a lot less restrictive, and are less likely to cause instant fail states (something that comes all too easy in the PS2 games in my opinion).

The PS2 games are slower and have a more tactical feel as well as more in-depth mech customization, which some will prefer. Of these games my favorite so far is AC 3. It has better mission variety than AC 2 imo, and more end game content in the form of tougher arena opponents (including an extra 2v2 arena mode) and extra parts to unlock. Though it's worth mentioning that the actual arena locations are a lot weaker than the ones in AC 2.

Gen 4 games (AC4, AC4A) are definitely the easiest to recommend. They're the fastest and most intense, and are much easier to learn control wise. And while I still have never played 4, I can attest that 4A is a fantastic game. It has some awesome missions (including one that pits you against 3 AC's at once) and multiple endings. Though it's worth mentioning that if you want to do anything but a bipedal mech you might be in for a uphill battle, or at least so I've heard.

Some other things worth mentioning is that it is probably best to play AC games through emulation. A vast majority of AC games don't have checkpoints or even a mission reset button as Gabriel mentioned earlier. So at least having the option of save states is something worth considering.
Also it is often brought up how much time is spent in the garage customizing your AC in these games. And while some players will do this, it is also perfectly possible to slap stuff together quickly using common sense that will get you by most missions just fine.

I've linked this video in the past but I'll link it again here anyways since it's relevant. It has a handy guide on how to remap the controls for the PS2 games using PCSX2 to something more comfortable for most players.

https://youtu.be/Vbh-TqxIad4

Sorry this reply is too long lol!!

Fromsoft really is one trick pony, aren't they? I've decided to give it a go and they really put Sekiro posture in it, even if you deflect projectile using pulse shield, your posture fills the same way as in Sekiro. It also pretty much dictates pace of the battle, as without filling it your dmg is laughable.

I've try keeping my AC lightweight, but even then movement seems too restricted by en consumption. Much like souls, It's not so much that you've manage en consumption, but more as it exists to just slow you down.  Game also seems to encourage lock-on given how mobile bosses can be, especially since it turns your mech automatically to face them.

Why they even trademarked the title twice if all they are doing is selling Dark souls again? It's not offensively bad to stop me from playing,
but If I want to play more AC, I'll probably try the older titles and won't comeback to it. Can't say I'm exactly disappointed I didn't had my expectations high.

>2nd Vanquish
Who says that? I really don't see that many similarities, I can sort of see it with the meter, but it's way better in Vanquish.

Paul Allen's profile wrote:Fromsoft really is one trick pony, aren't they? I've decided to give it a go and they really put Sekiro posture in it, even if you deflect projectile using pulse shield, your posture fills the same way as in Sekiro. It also pretty much dictates pace of the battle, as without filling it your dmg is laughable.

I've try keeping my AC lightweight, but even then movement seems too restricted by en consumption. Much like souls, It's not so much that you've manage en consumption, but more as it exists to just slow you down.  Game also seems to encourage lock-on given how mobile bosses can be, especially since it turns your mech automatically to face them.

Why they even trademarked the title twice if all they are doing is selling Dark souls again? It's not offensively bad to stop me from playing,
but If I want to play more AC, I'll probably try the older titles and won't comeback to it. Can't say I'm exactly disappointed I didn't had my expectations high.

>2nd Vanquish
Who says that? I really don't see that many similarities, I can sort of see it with the meter, but it's way better in Vanquish.

The game doesn't encourage lock on at all, in fact, lock on is busted lol

-> Hard lock
There are advantages to not using it, just like in any Soul's game. I just wish people would stop pretending that abstaining from the hard-lock will make the game suddenly play like AC.

-> Vanquish similarities
Watch Platinum reboot Vanquish and give it the SekiSouls treatment. These claims will seem prophetic.


->AC6
I've been trying lately to just not think of it as an AC game and this hasn't been doing it any favors either. The Souls games have pretty mediocre combat, so having a game that needs to be carried almost entirely by it's combat is basically a death sentence. I had the entire weekend plus two vacation days to play this, and I found that I was playing 1.5 to 2 hrs each day only to get bored, procrastinate the game, and start bumbling about my place looking for things to clean.

>Hard lock-on
At close range accuracy penalty is minimal and game encourages getting-in close by ricochets and blades. If was completely useless, nobody would make fuss about it.

>Vanquish
I'm greateful there won't Vanquish 2, because of it

-> Hard-lock
Doesn't help that the new FCS system feels like it was designed around it.