Combat mechanics

Played an hour or so.

You summon with ZL and must hold it. This keeps Bayo dancing. Stop or get hit and they'll vanish. There's an instant recall too.

You can stop dancing and move freely IF the demon is still attacking. You can queue up two attacks and they're pretty slow so you have a little time to do something then go back to holding ZL if you want to keep the demon out.

They can turn against you too but I forgot what it said. I think it's if they take too much damage.

So far not liking them that much. Hoping something improves. Haven't seen the shop yet.

Haven't bought it, but I've heard many notes regarding Bayonetta herself being very gimmicky and gimped, though some of the later weapons shine a bit brighter. Much more focus is on Viola who seems to be like a DMC-lite.

There are indicators for off screen enemies and a main objective marker. What?

And there are like 3 currencies.

Only good thing I'm seeing right now is you can counter by summoning before an attack hits (but only against 'direct melee' it says) and you can summon them to do an instant attack.

I got that big gun hammer thing but don't like it much. Never been a fan of the big slow stuff.

We're not getting top tier games anymore, are we?

The skill tree in the menu is where you buy moves for Bayonetta and demons. Uses red orbs.

Rodin's shop is for items and accessories, and something about changing colors. Uses whatever this green shit is you get from enemies or these flowers everywhere.

There are halos but I barely see angels. They seem to be in hidden fights only.

The earlier riding segment on Gomorrah was hideous. Then an equally hideous fight at the end where you have to play as it.

Temporarily got use of Phantom and it can drop mini-Phantoms that attach to the enemy and explode. Web stops them for a few seconds. Had to do another trash sequence where I had to play as it and run through a city of collapsing and warping buildings getting chased by a giant fish. Whole thing sucked.

Upside is I bought some of the old moves like Afterburner Kick and Heel Slide.

Doesn't look like the basic enemies block anything like in Bayo 2. Did encounter one large type thst could block and knock Bayo away with a magic shield. Feel like a lot of these big things are trying to force summoning.

Won't be surprised if it's trying to force summon usage. So far what's your opinion on the summoning and devil triggers part of the combat?

Don't think much of it.

Seems forced in at present. Maybe when I get some more abilities.

The practice mode doesn't have an enemy to actually practice on.

Bought it on a drunken whim, let's see where this goes haha

Not liking a second of it. Don't even feel like continuing but I will to see if there's any tools that are actually interesting. Just hot to the part where you use the train demon. Awful. Whole game has been awful so far.

This has been depressing to read.

Giant kaiju fight with Tekken side view. You have to counter the enemy with certain commands.

I can't express how horrific it was. How is this shit allowed. It's already worse than everything in both previous games JUST within the first two chapters.

I'm starting to understand why people play only DMC4.

I just bought this game and have no will to turn it on. This might just be me personally though.

There's a lot of good points too.

But now I would be happy with a sequel that removed stuff rather than adding. I would happily pay for a re-release of Bayo 1 that removing all flying, mini-games, giant fights.

Bayo 3 has boring open areas now. Not super open but pretty big comparent to previous games
And they look worse than Nier Automata. Totally bland.

Hoping for a weapon or ability that lets me drop bombs like Durga. Thought the spider's yoyos might have something but they don't.

This game is going to be so divisive I think, because to be honest: I'm loving it. I'm not too far in and I predict I'll dislike the Viola segments for being so typical, but I really like the Kajiu system so far. You can do so many wacky things with it.

Since you can queue attacks, you summon Gamorah and let him do a 360spin (360+K) into a bite (R), then immediately let go of the summon button. He'll go do his thing and you can then play with his food. Like attacking others, or the ones he just bounced with his tailswipe and smack them back to him with a Wicked Weave, or when he holds someone with his bite you go ham on that guy just pounding him to dust.

You've got like this giant interactive enviromental at your disposal, it's so neat.

Madam butterfly has less of this, as you more directly control her, but you can do her for quick attacks like her jumping puch (shockwave) or her kiss (more of a charged move).

Now that I've unlocked more moves its better.

Like like the butterfly lady the most so far. She can dizzy enemies with that kiss move. Also gets spinning bird kick which looks absurd. Just got the train but haven't used it. The description shows it has a move that summons two demons.

You get that accessory that lets you block too.

Viola wasn't bad.

But like the previous games I doubt I'll replay it much due to the amount of bullshit.

The Jeanne segment was so bad I can't explain it. And I know there will be more of these.

Don't really like the weapons much either so far.

Yeah honestly with every passing moment it gets better. At first you're quite gimped, but the more weapons and skills you unlock the more potent the combat gets tbh. Action games need a while to find their groove so I wouldn't pass it off just yet.

Some closing notes:

> practice mode
It's there and you can practice against all enemies afaik.

> AAA game
Honestly we have a big content release here with a nice unique take on existing mechanics. It is so rare for this to happen, yet I still see a lot of complaining (especially on Twitter/Reddit) that it "isnt'like the previous games". Like no shit, just play those. I'm super happy P* at least is still trying new shit, even if they stumble a bit. Astral Chain was fire too.

>practice
Where is this?

>nice unique take on existing mechanics
Just wish they'd leave the non-combat crap at the door.

Actually looking forward to getting more demons and weapons now. Just hope something fits my playstyle.

> practice
Mapscreen

> noncombat crap
Yeah it's fucking godaweful but atleast super easy this time around. I mean B1 is still loved, same with W101 despite them having even worse minigames.

So far I agree though that I haven't found a fun weapon yet. Jojo's sound cool but are too annoying.

> viola
I really don't like playing as her tbh. She feels like the most by the numbers action-gaming protagonist I've seen in terms of moveset.

Jeanne minigame seems like a prototype for Luka's standalone DLC PG was developing like they did with Sol cresta.

My biggest gripe, once again, is those minigames. They're really interwoven in the chapters again so I honestly cannot see myself actively replaying this because of them and how annoying they can be. Though we'll see. I was initially happy since they made the Jeanne one's as seperate chapters, but all the Kaiju, turretsections, bubblebath section (wtf haha) are all interwoven.

How the hell does this series not have a Bloody Palace by now.

Or a training mode with infinite HP enemies.

How could they not do these?

Hopefully there is at least one chapter with a heavy focus on normal combat I can replay.

Got two new weapons in a single chapter. Hope they do what I want.

>Viola
Definitely as you say, I just mean she isn't as awful as I thought especially once I got more moves.

Can't understand why they made her demon uncontrollable. It's like they wanted to limit her. No reason to lose the sword either. Should just be a weapon switch.

The weapons in this game are freaking sick! Whoever at PG came up with these ideas needs a raise.

>Bloody Palace
Only played Bayo 1 but there is Angel Slayer there which is basically BP. The problem is that it's not unlocked by default, so you need to unlock every Alfheim first.

I’m not sure how I feel yet. I haven’t had a moment in combat where I said to myself “this is awesome, things are really clicking now”. Bayo herself is gimped currently and DS are…fine? Obviously things will make more sense as I go along but right now they just don’t seem integrated into core game super well. Feels like I’m playing two different games.

Also holy shit this game is ugly. I don’t usually care about stuff like this but it’s hard to ignore.

Yeah the uglyness is really, really noticable. I'm not a graphics guy either but this game looks abysmall, both in presentation on a technical front as well as art-style imo.

> it's not really clicking yet
Feels like an Astral Chain situation where the game won't shine fully until you have all your tools. Game opened up more for me when it got the super-laser for Gamorah and Suicidebomb for Phantom. They're great abilities that you can use in conjuntion with your regular attacks.

For all the style in this game, you can play it really, really damn efficient.

> weird thing
One thing that was super, super weird for me, was that I found a challenge-map that forced me to use a weapon ... I hadn't unlocked yet. Never saw that happen before in a game.

I find the first few weapons pretty boring. They're kind of the same in how they function.

About to test the frog and the other one. When you first get it you have to make it sing to generate the poison rain. Takes a while though. Not sure how this could be set up yet. It can send out exploding tadpoles too.

Anyone else rushing through to get weapons/demons? I've barely bothered with exploration or chasing those animals around. Hate doing that.

>forced to use a weapon you haven't unlocked.
Very strange. Thought it would just lock the mission until you get it unless they had the idea that forcing an unfamiliar weapon would disadvantage you.

I just got a...clocktower?

Another new weapon shoots electric bats and has two moves of great interest to me.
One shoots bats that return, and another rolls a big bat that explodes and creates a dome of electricity.

Looks like this can be used to set up funky rebounds.
Now just need another weapon to suit me.

These minigames are getting more nuts. Nier shooting segments, opera singing.

I think I'm fighting the final boss now. I'm so sick of this mint toothpaste loser.

Beat it just now.

Got Cruel Altea. Haven't used it yet but looking at the skill list it doesn't look like it has anything of interest to me. Maybe if the beams work like Bazillion but doesn't look like they do.

One more weapon to get. Hope this one offers something I can make work with the lightning bat thing.

When you beat the game you'll also unlock a battle mode and that horrible Jeane minigame.

Verses can be selected. Got NSIC but haven't touched it.

Cruel Altea weapon has a shot that can freeze.

Don't like Kraken's weapon. Has a move that can pull enemies in. Was hoping for something like Kulshedra but it's nothing like it. The pull misses because they have to be positioned perfectly I think.

Found some stuff with Abracadabra using the shot where you can charge a bat. Might make some quick vids later.

Really don't think much of the weapons in this at present.

Wait there is a whip!

I just saw it in a video. That must be the only one I don't have.

Yeah that whip is the one I had in one of the challenge-maps all of a sudden. Apparently you need to get all the collectivles in Chapter 3 to get it.

Just finished it. Honestly...I kind of love it now. Around chapter 6 shit really clicked with me and I started going nuts with what the game has on offer, and I'm stoked to play it again.

Platinum just needs to fucking stop with all the non core gameplay bits already. These sections alone are going to prevent this game from ever being top tier. They could have at least added some option to skip them.

Don't like how the whip works. It's the one from Bayo 2.

Overall I like Bayo 1's weapons way more.

The weapons in 3 mostly feel too similar. They all have an After Burner kick and dash and all these big area attacks. Feels like I'm using the same thing most of the time.

Summon system is OK but at the end of the day not enough to keep me playing.

Feel like something is wrong with me. Like I should enjoy this summoning thing more but I just don't.

Will give more detailed opinions after I finish it, but I think I have to agree with the consensus here - I'm really enjoying it! The first few hours I felt unsure but there was definitely a point where things clicked and I felt I had enough tools to start putting cool things together. I'm still probably not using the demons enough (my combo ranks have been pretty poor on this first run) but now I'm a bit more used them I think they're a really cool addition to spice up the Bayo formula.

Also agree with the gimmicky stuff being total crap. Jeanne's sections are boring (although I respect the tribute to Elevator Action), there are too many ride-the-monster set pieces, and the shooting sections where you move a cursor round the screen feel pretty bad. The more traditional Shmup style ones are...okay, but still not particularly good. Platinum just can't help themselves with this stuff, can they? You can feel Kamiya's influence in this and it's overkill. Stop making me play Space Harrier guys, FFS.

Yeah I don't see myself replaying this game to be honest, it's a painful game at times, and it influences gameplay too much. Some chapters force you to use specific daemons due to the plot, chapters are constantly littered with annoying challengemaps or minigame interruptions. It's not even enjoyable the first time in that sense.

When I do get to play as Bayonetta it's a dream to be honest, really fun.

I'm not going to sell it.

Did that with Astral Chain then ended up buying it again.

At some point I might look for a chapter with decent enemies to practice on.

The thing with the demons is I often feel I'm just playing as a big version of Bayonetta to get more damage and break guards.

I do think they're good though. They feel sort of similar to CL's legions in some ways. You have that burst when you summon and they come out attacking, losing mobility while they're out.

I think I might be tired of Platinum's combat design with slow mo dodges and combo strings.

I need to get NG Black.

The daemons are fun, but I get your point. For example LadyBF is just Bayo except she can stagger things. I feel a lot of daemons, while having a bloated moveset, only have one or two functions.

Lady: launch enemies
Gamor: shoot super laser
Phantom: suicide bomb + bombs

etc.

> need to play the best action series ever made
jup!

Is Black available on the X1?

Feel like I'm never going to be able to get the original Xbox version.

Yeah, that's how I got it

Black is available for 10USD on the Xbox store and NG2 is 30USD (mission mode costs 7USD), but physical copies aren't expensive on ebay from what I see.

The game itself isn't but I was told by a seller shipping would be $100 US.

Yeah Ninja Gaiden Black is extremely rare and expensive in the Asia-region for whatever reason. I once had my hands on a Japanese copy which would've cost me more than 150$. It apparently got quite a limited run.

You can buy them digitally on X1 as noted, for quite cheap.

Finished Bayonetta 3, tried replaying it on higher difficulties and honestly... it's going to be sold. Thoughts:

> core combat
I really like the core combat, the daemons are interesting and I like that you can choose to let them do their thing or give them commands manually using Accesories to give that choice. That said, they don't do anything 'new'. Enemies are now more resistant to launchers, so you have to use daemon-launchers instead. Enemies stagger less fast, so use daemons.

As a result, the combat starts to revolve more around just doing a few combos while using the more optimal and powerful daemon attacks. You can definitely have fun with the options, but I quite quickly got railroaded into " super laser, braekdance, selfdestruct" loop to just instagib entire fights.

> minigames
These really, really kill the game for me. It's painful to say that a game with so much content, from unlockable costumes, unlcokable sidemissions (collect all the crows), to just fun combat. I tried to replay Chapter 3 for example, and since you can't exit a mission (you have to beat it, otherwise all progress is lost), this meant I had to do two chase-sequences, a gimped boss fight and a kajiu rock/paper/scizzors game every run of the level. It got so tiring, so fast, I legit never want to touch that chapter again. And every chapter has these moments/sequences.

Ironically when you're doing pure combat, like in the Witch Trials, it's super fun, but that's super depressing that the entire campaign basically hates you.

There's other side minigames like the Jeanne chapters that were absolutely garbage, but at least you can avoid them upon replays.

> Viola
I legit am struggling to think of a action-gaming character with less depth than her. A few strings, charged attacks, a summon (that you cannot control) the typical parry mechanic and a ranged dart to through: truly a game changer.... every chapter that had me play as her made me want to rethink life.

> story
Impressive that they manage to crank up the level of dialogue and amount of cutscenes by such an insane degree, and near the end I still have no clue what's going on, who the villain is, what he wants and why. Apparently you have to read books for that...
Just such a horrid display. Never again. Also hate that:

Spoiler:

> weapons
One thing I REALLY dislike, strangely enough, is how bad the weapons are. They are all super interesting on a surface level with cool designs and unique ideas, but the core combat just does nothing with them. You basically just have three 'states' of enemies. Staggered, launched, grounded. The last one doesn't do anything, so it's more a point of "which does the most DPS". It's cool that you have all these moves but they all do the same in the end I feel, I also had this problem in Bayonetta 1 and 2 prior, but way more here. The only two weapons that stood out for me were Alrune since it is more AoE based and that shield weapon since it has some creative use with its block mechanic.

> enemies &bosses
Not too big a fan of them, don't hate them either. A lot really have the problem of looking far too similar to the rest, that's for sure. As with others, they all sort of...blend together in "they have moves, mash dodge on reaction for WT/Batwithin and combo them". I never had foes that made me fight in a specific way or had me need to deal with them, prioritize them or handle them differently.

> areas
Really surprising how this entire game is built around multiverse, yet the best they could come up with was:
- ruined city
- ruined city
- empty ruins with some grass
- a scrapped sand-level from Mario
- ruined city, in france

It's legit some of the most uninspired leveldesign I've seen in ages.

> ending thoughts
Really unimpressed and severly disappointed. Probably won't touch this ever again. The only good thing I have to say about it is that it makes me want to play Bayo1 and 2 again because of it. And that the core combat is neat and cool, just wish I could play it.

.

Hey, welcome! That's a good note, I was indeed playing on ∞Climax when I saw that. That's a big plus.

> disagree with the founder
This isn't an echo-chamber, feel free to have your own thoughts and post them! Glad to hear someone liked the title. As noted, I clearly didn't haha

>it's going to be sold
Might pay to hold on to it a little longer. I don't feel much like replaying it either, but I felt the same with Astral Chain. Sold it, then bought it again later.

>mini-games
I've never seen worse.

>but at least you can avoid them upon replays.
What.

>can't control Viola's summon
I can't see why they did this.

>bad weapons
I only ended up liking one, and like one or two moves from others.
They largely feel the same and guns suck.

>shield weapon
Reminded me of the one from El Shaddai.

>enemies and bosses
A bunch of giants that do huge sweeping attacks. Can't even remember them. Just a blur of mint toothpaste.

I do appreciate Cruel Altea's freeze, and that Phantom can set Big Bird's tornado on fire. Now I'm wondering if there's more hidden stuff like this just like in Okami.

Okay, so I finished the game a couple of days ago.

The core combat is still a lot of fun, and I really love the flow of battles in the Bayo series. I feel like there's a sort of "rhythm" to the combat that makes playing well so satisfying. The weight of the wicked weave attacks, the speed and agility at which you can move between enemies, the dodge system (which is pretty overdone in Platinum titles but it did originate with Bayo, so I don't mind)...everything just comes together so nicely. Bayo2 was the one that really got me into the series and it was this combat loop that pulled me in. It's still here and still very enjoyable.

Generally, I do like the Demon Slave system. Most of the demons have pretty cool designs, they feel weighty and powerful, and they control better than I expected them to. Some of them (like the weapons, which I'll get to) are extremely creative which I really enjoyed. However, I'm not sure how I feel about their role in combat. I feel like you have to depend on using them a bit too much. I noticed that certain enemies can only be stunned, launched, guard broke etc. by strong attacks from the demons. Being unable to inflict these properties as Bayonetta made her feel watered down (I think there was a similar complaint high level players had with Bayo2 and certain properties only being active in Witch Time). I suppose the demons do need to be useful or there is no point in including them. I would say only around half the demons seem to have a unique role in combat, rather than just helping you do more damage, but to be fair I haven't properly experimented which a bunch of them yet. For the most part, cool addition I think.

I appreciate that Platinum tried to innovate on their formula and make a different experience from the first two games by introducing the demon stuff. I know you'd always want a sequel to be better, but I like it when sequels are different. If you get something different from each game then none of them become redundant and they retain their replayability. They still have to be good though, of course.

My feelings on the weapons are similar to those on the demons - very cool and creative, but not all of them are particularly unique in terms of properties, effective range etc. I found Colour My World was pretty effective and stuck with that for the whole game, rotating between other weapons in the second slot. The Fire Yo-yos seemed quite good, as did the returning Alruna. Again, I do need to spend more time with the others before making a proper comment on them. I think it's cool that every weapon has it's own projectile attack on the gun button now, but none of them seem very useful...I only ever used the guns to keep my combo going when the next enemy was far away. I did spot that the Microphone weapon gives you attack/defence buffs on held attacks - not sure how useful the buffs end up being, but it's a cool idea.

There's been quite a bit of buzz online around the performance and visuals, which admittedly are underwhelming. For me, the gameplay made up for these shortcomings, but in places it is quite clearly the worst looking game of the trilogy. The game tends to look it's worst when in the more urban "realistic" environments - the first few chapters are set in the grayest place you've ever seen in your life. Thankfully the later ones get much more colourful. The weird polka-dot effect that appears (I think the technical term is "dithering") is quite distracting, and seems to pop up a lot. Admittedly these things did stop bothering me after the first few hours, once I'd settled into the gameplay, but if we're being fair we do have to acknowledge things aren't great in these areas. This game really does not suit the power of the Switch.

The story is honestly pretty awful. It all sounds cool on paper, until you question any of the details and start to realise how many unanswered questions there are. The ending feels deliberately vague so they've got plenty of room to decide on where a Bayo4 might go. The series hasn't really had any standout villains but I think Singularity is the worst one by far (and his toothpaste colour scheme applying to nearly every enemy in game is horrible). In response to Raeng's spoiler tagged comment:

Spoiler:

Viola...wasn't great. Her combat is so incredibly basic and limited when compared to Bayo that you just have to think, why would you ever want to play as her? She's got one weapon and one demon while Bayo gets 10+ of each? I didn't like that her Witch Time is triggered by a different button to Bayo, that was confusing to get my head around. I get that she has both dodge and block as defensive options, so they kept dodge on the same button. Apparently you can change the control layout for Viola to have block on the dodge button, but then your sprint/dash actions are on the wrong button...you can't win. She manages to simultaneously be the DMC4 Nero / DMC5 V of this game. Which brings me to my next point...

I couldn't help but be reminded of DMC5 the more I played. The similarities I noticed:

- Both games start with a fight you aren't supposed to win
- Emphasis on urban/city environments
- Some story similarities I won't detail for spoiler reasons
- Missions locked to specific characters (the reception to this seemed negative in both DMC/Bayo)
- Bayo's massive arsenal of weapons and demons feels like it was meant to rival Dante's weapons and styles
- Both Bayo and Dante have a creative weapon inspired by a vehicle
- Viola has similar characterisation to Nero while having about as many of her own levels as V
- Bosses from previous games were brought back as summons in both games

Bayo3 was in development for a good while, so it's hard to say how many of these might be coincidences.

I feel like I've been pretty negative but I did generally really enjoy playing through the game. The first couple and last couple of hours were probably the roughest, in my opinion, but the traditional combat sections are very fun and what I expected of the quality we've seen in the series so far. I can fully understand why the game is so divisive amongst the fan base. The amount of gimmicky set pieces does make me feel like they've tailored the initial playthrough towards the average gamer (and the game is worse off for it), but I think there's a lot of complexity to the systems and I'd imagine Infinite Climax is very challenging, so the more hardcore elements are still there. There's a lot of content in here and I don't think I'm done with it just yet. It has made me want to revisit the other games, so that's something I might do soon.

.

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@Gregorinho

> rhythm
I can see that, especially with how much it promotes mobility and dodging (dodgeoffset is still unmatched here imo) there's a distinct flow. I never clicked with DodgeOffset in other titles, like MGR:R, where it was just a bonus. But here it always has an added layer, like shooting guns while doing it for extra visual confirmation etc. Just works nicely.

> B2
One day I will understand why people hate that title so much, I still enjoy it the most out of the series tbh.

> daemonslaves
My biggest gripe is that they did a half-measure, which I can understand but I wish they hadn't. After the initial gameplay reveal, I had hoped it would be a total departure of Bayonetta gameplay, instead focussing heavily on the summons. Instead we sort of got "Bayonetta 2, with some summons included". As a result they nerfed quite a few options that were given to the summons. It's like you play Ninja Gaiden, but in NG4 suddenly only summons can do OTs - sure it works, but it doesn't make it feel unique like you're doing something you couldn't before.

Like you note, the weapons and daemons all feel very same'y and I honestly think this game especially suffers from 'walking hitbox' syndrome. Enemies don't have enough states or status-changes available to make this absolute LAUNDRY list of weapons work in unique ways or give the summons enough time to shine. There's a summon the reveals invisible enemies, but there's only one fight where foes are invisible: so why the fuck is it there. And even then it's the ONLY way to see them, so it's not a core mechanic, it's literally "red weapon for red enemy" kinda design in that sense.

I'm surprised about this, even more after replaying B1 and B2 a bit, since those weapons had a lot of distinctive elements to them to compliment their otherwise similar moveset. Durga had mines to lay for example, which alone offers more creativity and depth, while shotguns did more damage up close than pistols, but Kilgore did way more damage, but was slower, and in B2 there's even MORE options like being able to freeze enemies for bonus damage, giving them literal debuffs (poison, fire) and more. None of that is present here.

> buff weapon
Yeah I tested it, the damage increase seems negligable, especially since it's exclusive to you and doesn't seem to affect summons. I guess you could combine it with the super-attack from Abracadabra, which is an OHKO against everything except a few bosses.

> the spoiler
One thing I really, really hate, and it's such a minor thing. It's that the guns of current Bayonetta are purple. The others were Red and Blue. Make these Yellow. They are the three primary colors. Making them Purple (combining red and blue) makes her feel like the ' fusion' of both, which in some way rubs me really badly hahaha. Designer issues.

> DMC5 similarities
That and DBZ's Trunks arc. Viola's story is legit a complete fusion of both Trunks storylines from Z and Super.

@JOHN
> joined because this site rules and people know their shit
Always happy to hear! Again, welcome man : )

> never got into B1
It's weird for me, it was my gateway to the genre (played it, then jumped to Vanquish which set me up to Ninja Gaiden), but I am pretty emotionless to it.

> content
What I will say is that the game is incredibly filled with content, and also Legacy content. I also liked this about B2 where *every* costume of B2 was unlockable. Ninja Gaiden couldn't even do that despite it's billion re-releases.
I will say I'm a bit surprised by its limitations in some regards. Why is Jeanne not playable in Bayonetta's missions? Why are Viola and Bayonetta also locked in their respective chapters? DMC4 released nearly a decade ago, and people have been bitching ever since - why is this still an issue?

> the art
In terms of communication, it's fine. But aesthetically it's a bit too drab + toothpaste for me, especially in terms of variety. Just surprised that the game looks worse than B1 and B2, despite those being released on far inferior hardware. The summoning of course plays an issue, but they aren't AS big as I thought.

> weapons don't feel like weapons because they morph you into a demon
Very true, not something that immediately came to my mind but now that you mention it this did really irk me. Same with how the transformations all had diferent speeds and motions - really offputting.

> oversimplified
Yeah, definitely, but as you note, my point is kinda understandable. As noted to Greg (scroll up), I am more of a ' go all out' kinda guy and would've respected them more if they'd fully commited. This feels more like Bayonetta+Summons than a full on summon-game if you get me where they're intergral to the experience. You can easily play without them (PP will be an issue tho), or just ignore Bayo's moveset and just summon.

If I had to make it a mixed variety, I'd have maybe done less weapons (or just one in enterity) and focused way more on making each daemon unique in its application and giving enemies unique weaknesses to each, allowing for and rewarding more creativyt. Now i still kinda feel that "what they can do, I could do better" you know. It's because of that that I was also so drawn to the more unique attacks like the super-las0r and suicide-bomb.

> weapons
It amazes me how Ninja Gaiden II can have 7 weapons that are all so wholly unique, they might as well be an entirely new game in how they change your method of playing. But in the meantime there's this game with even more weapons and even more moves, yet it all plays the same.

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> my gateway drug
My origin story (lol) is a bit convoluted. I got Bayonetta as a free game with a magazine subscription, played it, enjoyed it. It triggered something that resonated with me. So I bought Vanquish, it scored pretty 'meh' and sold badly which is always a sign of quality in my eyes. I got the Platinum pretty fast, and started bragging to a friend about it like a moron. He said "okay, you think you're hot shit, Platinum this game" which was NGS2.

I had an accident around that time that saw me bedridden for nearly a month, so I just spammed NGS2 and Platinumed it. I was starting to like the genre but a bit later MGR:R hit and was a game where I made my mark with a lot of world-first/only challenge runs. From there I just got massively addicted haha.