God of War: Chains of Olympus

As I wrote in the other topic I'm playing this game. Hard is finished without many problems (Charon and Persephone were the main hurdles) and Very Hard is almost completed (I need to beat the final boss).

During my VH run I had to be more precise but the game is still lenient with upgrades. The most difficult part for me was the fight against two minotaurs, three satyrs and another minotaur. The camera doesn't do a good job and minotaurs can start their charge attack off-screen without an audio cue. After some deaths I regained most of my health so I didn't need a no damage performance in the first part and I could pass that section.

This spin-off is a decent action game. It's inferior to the main trilogy, but still enjoyable. I think its faults are: limited grabs, no ring-outs except in a single section, no collision damage or friendly fire (I only saw grenadier satyrs causing something similar), weak magic. Blades' moveset is well balanced and Gauntlet of Zeus is a nice and powerful addition thanks to its charged attacks, so the melee is fine.

After my VH run I'll try a NUR+ run. It should promote a better understanding of defense and base moves.

Update: VH is done and I've just reached the Temple of Persephone in my NUR+. I had some trouble against shielded enemies with a mace (when you break the shield blocking is useless, so parry timing must be on point) and two gorgons/medusas at the same time (it's difficult to launch them and if you succeed they break your grab very easily).

Never played the PSP versions myself, kept on hoping they'd get ported to PS4 down the line but seems like I'm out of luck in that regard. Might pick them up when I hook up my PS3 to the CRT (not enough space underneath my hd-tv anymore).

What do you mean with limited grabs, they just don't work or are enemies hard to get into the air for that slamdunk?

If your PC is good enough you can emulate them (along with 1+2) on RPCS3 - emulation seems perfect, and I don't think they are too demanding. I also think you can grab God of War Saga for PS3, IIRC you can find many new copies for cheap and it has a CD-Key for the PSP entries (might require an American account though).

> Might pick them up when I hook up my PS3 to the CRT
Yeah, you should do it when you have some time and want to re-experience the old GoW. The trilogy is on another level, but I can appreciate a lesser product if it's short enough and doesn't follow modern trends. And I love the PS3 System way more than my PS4 Pro, which seems a nuclear reactor when I start a game haha.

> grabs
They work fine with most enemies, exceptions are obviously shielded enemies with a mace, Cyclops and Minotaur types. Gorgon/Medusa enemies can be grabbed but they break the lock and they are unaffected by the launcher the majority of time. There is one single Orion's Harpoon which you can't redirect and in general grabs are monodimensional attacks because you can't use collisions, you just use it and kill the enemy.

NUR+ is almost done. I'll try the PAIN+ and that should be my final run with this game. That fight against two Cyclops enemies in a tiny arena will be very annoying without the GoZ.

@GodModeGOD I want to thank you because I read some of your posts in "The Ultimate God Of War Union Board" and with your help I could use more tactics or just know which attacks do more damage. By the way, what's your opinion on Ghost of Sparta? I'll probably play it after CoO.

Update: After completing the NUR+ I'm now doing the PAIN+. I intend to rectify what I previously wrote about Gorgon/Medusa types: they break the lock but they can be launched consistently with Square and Hold Triangle when they spawn or after a succesful parry (the counter isn't necessary). I also discovered you can bait Minotaur's close ranged attack and if you evade it he'll continue to do it.

I noticed Minotaurs do a very low roar before the charge but at first I couldn't hear it due to the music. NUR+ and PAIN+ are forcing me to understand a lot of details, especially the Temple of Persephone which I passed again.

Red: >vanilla H down
Noted.

>main hurdles
Charon will probably not get any more interesting going forward unless you do PAIN+ (even then, just S4 comes to mind) or NBR+ (his melee is interesting without block or parry). Persephone becomes a tedious chore in PAIN+ in particular (S2 is considered bonus credit though perhaps the easiest of the existing cases to achieve).

>almost done with vanilla VH
Gettin a feel for the stat changes and aggro, yes. Maybe a better handle on what is and is not worth upgrading (and how to use those higher options).

>lenient with upgrades
This to say EXP comes fast and easy for getting MAX'd across the board? Or just good enough to do the bare minimum yet get all you could actually want? Frankly, there is almost no point to upgrading the Blades this time. At most lvl3 for slightly shorter chip sessions and unlocking "t2" for full heavy chain/string (quick path to Spirit). GoZ has such a higher base with sufficient modifier improvement as to stay well beyond the competition in power, the reach loss isn't a huge deal and it stunlocks. Just crushes the game. The only other area you might want to invest would be Charon's Wrath.

Just save up most of your orbs for them to demolish things. Early game mostly jobs to grabs anyway (pity about lack of petrification, hazards, collisions, etc.). Low dps only starts to suck when you get further in (but you'll soon enough have access to the tools you want to work with). Again, just not much cause to waste orbs on the default just to speed things up shy of the mid-tier. Hardly need to focus on EXP chests and other means to stock up (including optional fights *though honorable to kill all you can*).

>hardest bit was Armored Minotaurs in the Temple
There are some adjustments to be made when handling the bout, certainly. Have to work around the issues. There is one fight that is easily substantially worse in GoS. You'll know it when you encounter it (again a 'late game' case). It'll involve a badly designed enemy type teamed with a screen-blocker running amok. Becomes quite a disappointment as you further restrict to basics and run out of ways to face it at all honestly. Might be the only fight in the series NOBODY has done in the open.

Just isn't designed reasonably. Don't worry. Worse fights exist, just not in the same fashion. Another has TWO badly designed foes in an arena rigged against us with an intended method higher run conditions just don't play well with (creating competition even for the infamous Clone War without a protection gimmick to account for why it is so absurd). At least that case will be optional for you.

NOTE: If and when you're ready, we can do run coverage. Maybe go over some things (perhaps with that fight *among others*). Most of CoO is unworthy of the effort, but still...

>decent Action title
For a first try of a different studio adapting for handheld, yes. In that context is it quite competent. GoS advances on many fronts, too.

>limited RO
It is a major pain, yes. HUGE invisible walls, too. Early demo had a Homerun technique found for GoZ, but it got fixed AND they had an insurance plan (though more for HJ, IJ, etc. allowing skips with OoB and such) to appease level designers. Not sure why they care so much about things the bulk of players will NEVER learn (let alone do). I know why they limit quick kill options. Lets them stretch duration and increase difficulty. Just damn tedious to fight the same simple and challenge-less foes over and over in the same ways. Having terrain mix things up helps a lot (funneling, high/low ground, hazards and such). The traps don't work on foes. Petrification as a mechanic isn't there. Traversal combat is downgraded. Platforming is downgraded. Less cause to backtrack (no special fights).

>no collision damage
No collisions to begin with. Can't even score staggers by sending them into each other for what that would be worth (even ignoring how they wouldn't get sent into spikes, crushers, cliffs, etc.). GoS will bring back 'full' collisions, but not half (knockback) collisions. That's...something? Too bad they also nerfed the base such that a full is 3 (not 10) AND opted to do as GoWIII did (no scaling with Enemy Power % *fret not, enemy grabs were allowed to do this so one foe can one-shot you from full MAX'd HP if it catches you*).

It hurt to see the low base and NOT having them off knockbacks, but it was still something of an advancement for handheld entries. IF it had scaling like it should have, that would still be a decent boon (3 becoming 15 per instance with the 500% EP stat *just tackle some dude and pound on him with others nearby for a small AoE hurting them for that amount each time before tossing him at the boys for another*). Sucks there were never any uniques (at least) with a higher amount (GoWIII had that for HCWs) to compensate. Not even for the rare alt.OH reference with 360 toss from using the charge on particular pests/fodder. Getting even just a flat 20DMG there would have been pretty alright, but 3? Insulting, frankly.

NOTE: This isn't the only way knockback got insulted in that entry, either. Then other hit properties suffered for a similar reason...

>friendly fire
It is so rare to begin with. Really, the most one hopes for is petrified foes being open to allies hitting them. That was botched even in GoWIII (where they COULD be stone). Getting direct DMG is exceedingly rare (GoWIII had a few oversights). Mostly you get hit reactions (if knockback there is the chance for collisions and hazards where applicable). This SUCKS in GoS as knockback is turned against us for certain foes. Really would have been cool if the fire pools created from the Greek Flame (napalm) grenades could indiscriminately do harm. Still feel big boys should at least be able to hit little fellas for some portion of their damage (if not all) for at least ONE of their attacks. Helps break up the tedium of t0/t3 spam, GoZ lock and grab spam (dumping MP isn't going to last long given the costs, orb devaluing and higher scarcity of refills *GoW1 just threw so many orbs at us at such high value with chests galore*).

>weak magic
They scale with Power %. All of them. Normally that is NOT how it is done. AQ is the exception in GoWII. Nemean Roar for GoWIII. Petrification ignores that system until you're trying to beat on a statue yourself (if FF applies, enemy scaling factors). The spells are only balanced around 'Normal'. Even then, they're sort of meh. Just okay. LoD is too weak even then as it is a 1:1 ratio on a single target move. Even higher versions don't multi-hit (no piercing, big AoE, propagation/arcing, etc.). It would need to compete with the panic button (i-frames) AoE that can get higher value when in the thick of things. Efreet's biggest issue would come from upgrading (the power-up took AQ's playbook and thought up how to make it worse *sends foes out of the AoE, so if you want to get the most out of it an effort has to be made to get foes against a wall or something such that they stay in the blast area*). CW is a bit expensive, but staggers and has the desired 'spread' ability (though not as potent as the original cast).

ALL of them suffer if Kratos is weakened. Fortunately, GoWII and beyond don't mess with Power % on H, so what you were experiencing is the same issue as on N. When dealing with VH, you got to see how underwhelming a loss of just 25% output can be while paying the same. If we got orbs as freely as GoW1? Might still be alright. If they were as potent? Could work out. With means to refill a good deal and with frequency, you are less likely to want to spend casually. Least of all for something lacking 'punch'. Spells were traditionally a way to make-up for a lack of Power % as with grabs, collisions, RO, etc. Here that is not so. They are deranked accordingly. Still have some limited value, but it is severely reduced (further making the game about doing the same few things that actually work okay *boring, easy and repetitive, but now becoming drawn out as higher runs are being done*).

Sure would be a shame if the remaining things that help work around Power % were also nerfed. Grabs are weaker. Nice that we still have ways to cheese, but we only barely have to work harder to do infinities than with GoW1. No OH redirection. No alt.OH. No special grab (GoS adds that much). Very senseless to make something simple like mindlessly mashing circle take so long. GoW1's worst instances of this by far are the OH/air OS of Cerberus Breeder and Satyrs (OH is meh, ground OS is a lot of work for very little and air OS does 0DMG). The rest? Huge chunks that scale with their MAX HP.

>well balanced
Still has a lvl5 (GoS dropped it down to lvl4, I believe). Same modifiers as usual. Just that the specials ain't all that notable. The final special is okay for rubbish. Evade attack is good. Parry is fine. The rest? Who cares? Frankly, not really a focus. The values on it are pretty standard (post-GoWII). Nerfed t0/t3 back to GoW1 levels. Didn't buff T and t1 in response. Did buff s3, so that's something? Mostly weaker than usual. Competent, at least.

>GoZ
Charged attacks are satisfying and quite advantageous. Lets the attacks break shields (doesn't need to be heavy enders/specials as with BoC), stuns and does more damage. Some specials get special properties for timed releases (hidden perk). Bonus DMG, too. Rule of cool exists in one attack that isn't actually that good, but it has a full moveset making the alternative not a simple secondary or sub-weapon (first such case *GoS has the other*). Helps that the moveset (including unlocks) are mostly good/useful.

>shielded foe with mace
Hyperion Guard/Death Knight?

>issues with multiple sneks
Perhaps we can go over some of these things. How about it.

NOTE: Real shame about the lock (later used to cheese Medusa in GoW1) on these gorgons often crashing the game. Have to use alternative approaches thanks to that problem.

>don't work as much on big boys
They can't be knocked around much (if at all) let alone be opened up for OH or air OS, yes. Just their dizzy/wander state. Don't have mid-grabs to help speed things along, either. A CS grab set-up would have been nice (context for a bull would be it being baited to charge into a wall for stunning itself to beat on freely and grant a limited time chance to do a damaging grab *this aside from maybe letting us do an upgraded parry for the same or perhaps gaining a throw reverse if only with upgrading to suffer their garbage less when powered up in vanilla runs*).

>break the lock
Can cue to keep it, but the cost is as noted previously. Just have to take what you can get. IF the damage were just a bit better this would be less unsightly (would also help if slamming them into others would exploit the impact or they could be dumped into a hazard).

>unaffected by launcher
Armored moments (wake-ups are often this, but sometimes attacks have this to an extent).

>just one OH type
>no redirect
Not the best situation, is it? Stretches things out making you wish they would hit harder and there were less foes to do this same thing to (one after the next).

>NUR+ almost done
>PAIN+ as final run
Fairly standard. NGR+ (and higher) probably won't appeal a lot. NBR+ (and higher) is mostly interesting for Charon, but you don't have to do a full run to dabble there.

>x2 one-eyes
Body-blocking, zoning, chipping, etc. Not the most fun one can have. Boundary abuse is nice where applicable. Still dull. Their height allows their "O" to go off-camera, which is annoying, too.

>went over some tidbits from TUGOWU
That right?

>more tactics
My write-ups help.

>damage values
Anything in particular in mind?

>opinion of GoS
Reasonably sure my evaluation topic there goes over it (among other places it gets discussed). A swan song for PSP (PS2 had GoWII, but poor PS3 got betrayed with GoW:A *to say nothing of PS4 being cursed or Vita ignored*). Plenty of faults all the same.

>figured some things out
Love to see it.

>PAIN+ started
How goes it?

>music
It isn't that great, so turning it off (or low) beyond the first playthrough should probably be done.

>higher runs forcing you to learn
Adversity doing work. Restriction itself can foster creativity.

>main hurdles
Yes, Charon isn't so bad even during PAIN+. I died many times in my NUR+, though. Persephone, on the other hand, requires a very high consistency with parries, S1 seems infinite and the real challenge starts at S2. For now I won't pursue the "*" with the method demonstrated by TazOne1, but I'll keep the save file. PAIN+ is done and it was an interesting experience, but I imagine CoO is the easiest of all GoW titles.
I had to understand better some enemies, which become passive off-screen, when it's safe to attack, block or roll away. These challenges test your ability with fundamentals first of all. To give you a more specific example, I had to adapt my positioning against Beasts, their grab got me many times and I missed some parries here and there so a considerable amount of deaths was caused by those enemies. Their high health, fast movements, the (off screen) grab and nasty allies (mainly Grenadier Satyrs) gave me a lot of trouble until my timing was perfect and I could manipulate the enemy in a specific part of the arena.

>lenient with upgrades
The most important upgrade that affects your run is probably the one which augments health. You can tank one or two heavy hits and be more aggressive while you aren't punished for your errors. Base GoZ is enough to wreak everything in a NUR+ and you notice it when you start a PAIN/PAIN+ and you can't use that tool anymore. In a Vanilla VH Run Efreet is a good panic button at max level, CH is a plus but it can easily destroy armor and stop dangerous enemies while you clear the fodder.

>hardest bit was Armored Minotaurs in the Temple
In my PAIN+ Run I had no problems, I baited a Minotaur in the lower left corner and looped him while the other one was passive. More knowledge gives power.

>run coverage
I'm not against it but it's probably worth for the main titles, CoO doesn't have many alternative solutions (especially in challenge runs).

>GoS advances on many fronts
Good to know. I wish they'd continue to develop "portable" GoW games, they could have a place in the market but Sony wants to focus only on Dad of War. Smaller titles like Knack 2 can be fun and they are certainly better than cinematic crap.

>Early demo had a Homerun technique found for GoZ
Demo,alpha, beta, patches, etc. have all one thing in common: they eliminate the fun.

>'full' collisions, but not half (knockback) collisions in GoS
I prefer to have something than to have nothing, but they could improve that system like you said.

>friendly fire
Yes, it's almost absent and when you could use it it's highly impractical and difficult to manipulate. Sadly, you're better off with the standard killing methods.

>magic scale with Power %
Got it, that's why LoD is particularly bad. The other two at least have uses and can be helpful, even if not well designed like in past games.

>Blades
At lvl3 they are fine in CoO, other upgrades are useful only to end bosses quickly but GoZ triumphs over them. By the way, when you talk about "T" you are referring to Hold Triangle? And what's the difference between "t0" and "t1"?

>GoZ
Good weapon all around but it simplifies the game too much. I don't know what I'd change about it, but even uncharged hits are good damage wise.

>Hyperion Guard/Death Knight?
Yes.

>Perhaps we can go over some of these things. How about it.
I usually put them in a corner, destroy their shield and parry one of them when he starts to attack and both of them are stunned. Rinse and repeat. s,s,s/t,s/s,t are my attack choices.

>unaffected by launcher due to Armored moments (wake-ups are often this, but sometimes attacks have this to an extent)
True, Fire Knights, for example, aren't interrupted by the launcher if they have already started to attack.

>OH stretches things out making you wish they would hit harder and there were less foes to do this same thing to (one after the next)
CoO tends to stretch things out in general. It's decent because it's still GoW, but the lateral thinking is severely limited in this entry.

>x2 one-eyes
Chipping with the Blades was a bit tedious but my zoning was on point thanks to the precedent NUR+ so I passed that section after two tries in my PAIN+.

>TUGOWU
The one and only. The Evaluation topic has plenty of info and there are many useful posts.

>damage values
I learned about the nerfed Hold Square and other tips were about GoW1 Blades but could be used in this entry too.

>isn't so bad
S4 is about as interesting as it gets when following the rules of PAIN+. Asbefore, NBR and higher at least makes the other portions more engaging.

>S1 tedium
It does drag. I forget, but I think it was a 5-10 minute process of chipping. Better than S2...

>asterisk another time
Noted.

>easiest of all GoW titles
Generally speaking, yes.

>beasts
Presumably we're talking the cats of Morpheus (later redubbed Sphinx). To pre-empt, may as well note some tactics for them one comes to devise given a bit of time:

"Stay in his face and block swipes (if you get hit, he will use an unblockable breath you can't stop without a parry). IF you get far away, expect an unblockable grab that can be tricky to evade. His cues are like the Piraeus Lion (sideways for blockable and back for unblockable) He's easiest to control later with the parry gained."

"Sphinx' melee animation is a bit different, but the same tactics apply. Try to keep it backed against the entrance barrier with allies off-screen. When it dies. Wait for the respawn and do the same. Then try to air t1 into air OS into OH as needed for Dark Satyr Grenadiers if you can't simply catch them with 's,t' into OH infinite."

NOTE: I don't have a line specifically listing the punishment suggested after parrying, sadly. Might have been interesting to hear what I did in NBR+ NUR+ (NGR+ NUR+ would just be beating them to death versus taking the early out when available).

>augments health
Not an upgrade in our terminology (though it literally is). That's an extension (covered in NER). Having more HP at least to the ends of being able to avoid a one-shot would generally be useful in a given title. Too bad even MAX can't save you from the grab of a Tyrant in GoS (vanilla VH). In GoW metrics, we more often fret over about what is 'recoverable'. What you can 'get by' with. Chests are plentiful, but when they are no longer an option, it is about what orbs can be counted on for (very little beyond GoW1). GoWII had boss refills as one thing to plan around.

>feel it keenly even between NUR+ and PAIN
Just so. Unless you're doing a meme run (like GoZ PAIN+), of course. Suddenly your dps drops like a stun and things are not getting locked down all day.

>armor destruction
Right, right. Even the 'spread' possesses that property, which helps CW's case.

>no problems upon learning their particulars
I'd expect not. My old notes are as follows:

"'s,t,s' at point blank then evade at the Minotaur to trick the headbutt (until at "O").

NOTE: Their "O" is a decent HP return (still small). Their charge is very dangerous in this outing. I don't recall if it can be parried, but the reversal of GoS doesn't apply in CoO. Expect about 80 damage if you get hit."

"t0 for their armor while evading rams. Whenever armor is off, remember they will ram. Rather than the sweeping melee, they have an overheat that is pretty easy to evade or exploit for time to plume (same for ram). It's tough to leave them off-screen as you don't always know the ram is coming.

The idea is to get backed into a wall with one Minotaur close so you can do the usual handling for "O" and repeat.

3x Dark Satyr (usual handling).

Another Armored Minotuar. Same handling (easier without the distraction of another who can ram through the other if he wishes).

NOTE: They usually don't want to ram when you're against a wall. That might help to know."

>not many alternate solutions
Not untrue, sadly. That is more a thing for very different runs (thus the sideshow taking center stage *no block, no grab, etc.*).

>portable GoW
I'm still surprised they didn't force my hand with Vita by making at least one (if not two) entries for it. They failed to have any for PS4 (just one Nu-GoW). Now PS5 is poised for the same treatment. Let's just hope they don't try for another mobile...

>Knack 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2m45TLVKRs&t=49s

>eliminate fun
Nowhere was this more true than in GoW:A. What a disaster. Even worse than with GoWIII.

>something rather than nothing
They're just that little squirt of whip cream on the shake.

>better off with standard killing methods
In most cases, yes. It takes very particular runs to make you want to consider the option when even available. Think I was in VH PAIN+ NGR+ BoA w/ Chalice when trying out using the adds against Herc.

>why it is so bad
And why I had to do a run as McKratos on Easy to sample what it would be like were the case otherwise. Mind you, other tools also scale, so it isn't like they're comparatively better. Just that you get a lot of bang for your buck (also spell cost goes down by 25%, so that along with x8 potency goes a long way *even LoD feels worthwhile while the other things utterly devastate the game*).

>have uses
LoD is just for the few ranged moments...except you get a 'Return' option, so it has a worse lot even than Zf (despite that one bouncing off blocking). I forget, but I think shields/armor laugh off the spell, too. No big AoE. Can't pierce. Charged version doesn't even have the 'last scraps' bonus of only costing as much as the basic toss when that's all you've got left.

>they are fine
And only that. You've got your quick access to enders. Think shield investment was needed for counters this time.

>go over naming conventions
As you know, there are official movelists and dev dubs. With GoWIII, L1+o (circle specials) are all called 'Combat Grapples' by the devs, but each version has a different actual name depending on the weapon. We don't always get names. Sometimes the names we get are redubs. Sometimes they only cover a string (not a particular move). In the past, I wanted a better way of talking about individual cases (even more so the case when doing damage value testing).

Valor of Hercules was the movelist name for the QUICK light string (lvl3+) noted just as 't,t,s'. Because the point of the string was the light ender, "Valor" was what we would call the cross-swipe finish. However, not everything could so easily be dubbed as such (what of the attacks along the way). It wouldn't be until much later we got an official name for the heavy starter (only upon it being changed from a double hit that could be fast/slow depending on set-up *becoming a mid speed single hit*) in the form of Bravery (of Hercules). The air version just got related (for lack of air T) to ground T (Ascension *varies with entry*) with talk of 'Descension'.

By the time values testing began, I made a system for the often simple inputs GoW employs. Tapped inputs would be lower case. Held would be uppercase. Numbers would denote their place in a string (which were simple for lack of delayed input cases or uniques along the way when mixing light, heavy, etc.). Didn't even have directionals (much less mashing *charges were not uniques, either*). No command grabs for Kratos. Specials were about as close as we got to something complex (no multi-face button inputs, either).

With the full light string you get 's,s,s,s,s,s' for s1, s2, s3, s4, s5, s6. The light opener is s1. Light ender (valor) is s6. As you know, s2 is basically just mirrored s1. This while s3 is just a vertical single slap. With s4 and s5 you have a horizontal double and a vertical double. With the full heavy string (lvl3+) you have 't,t,t' for t1, t2, t3. Heavy starter being t1 (later called Bravery *and air Bravery*). Heavy ender being the 'super plume' t3 known as Spirit (of Hercules).

That still leaves a few things to consider. The held heavy is Ascension. Just noted as "T" (no string to it, so no need for numbers *despite how air t1 is denoted where 'air t' would look weird*). The held light (S) is unlocked later (and has conditions to it *complicating things* depending on the entry). Even the official name depends on the entry (with GoW1 the swipe at the end is what we refer to as Might from Might of Hercules). What of 'Plume' (of Hercules)? This (non-super) heavy ender does not follow the heavy string. It has no place in the sequence. Fortunately, there was no other such case to fret over, so a lazy out was afforded in the form of "t0". It can follow s2, s3 and s4 (aside from special cases like a parry or 'thrust' after Rush), but is its own thing. No equivalent exists for a light.

NOTE: Probably the most complicated it gets would be in GoW:A owed to the rage handling (s4a is different *a lesser s6* from the classic s4 's4b'). Then there are cases like a held light stringing into other (unique) moves...

>what to change about it
Probably how much of a modifier is on lower string attacks and how much stagger even the charged version offers. Shouldn't be that free to dominate with just s1. This aside from the high base on openers (power weight as you get further into strings as with the Blades). Cestus is a much lesser version of this weapon that largely loses the incredible stuns and has far inferior base DMG (with almost no growth via upgrading). No charge-up for boosting individual strikes, either. If you had to work harder to still have access to OH (if not also OS), that might slightly increase the work to use it well.

Most moves are a bit strong at base. Charged versions wouldn't need much adjustment (other than low level and/or starter cases being less potent in terms of stun and damage). The timed release mechanic could be applied to regain what it already has (or at least approach that zenith). This is something already on one of the specials. Not-Chidori and the special punch should probably have opposite philosophy. The latter should be more potent when the target is closer to your point of start-up (less power lost on the approach). The former should gain in power when done from further away (building strength with each step). Gives them something to work around (keeping things interesting if trying to be optimal). The harder of the two will end up being the one trying to get in, so reward that with more damage accordingly (will need it as I'm pretty sure it can't bust shields/armor and won't stun to keep you safe from reprisal).

>good damage wise
Let's take a look. All testing was done with MAX. Apparently I didn't ever get back to doing the rest, but my old notes suggest 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 are the modifiers. You can probably halve what I note below. For starters, let's consider what 'is' the case (before what it could be changed to). The first value is base. The second is charged (there is no such thing as partial with how the system currently is)

s1 - 20 | 30
s2 - 30 | 45
s3 - 50 | 75

Already you're seeing some crazy stuff even without getting into lowering the amount of stagger for charged versions early in the chain (less interrupt/breaking of armored moves). Even if halved, we're still talking:

s1 - 10 | 15
s2 - 15 | 22.5
s3 - 25 | 37.5

You've got your NUR+. Now to set it to VH...Well, testing was odd there. Perhaps I messed up my first time doing the percentages as it came off like 62.5%. It wasn't 50% (GoW1). Let's just say it went like GoWII (75% *standard used for GoS, GoWIII and GoW:A*).

s1 - 7.5 | 11.25
s2 - 11.25 | 16.875
s3 - 18.75 | 28.125

I find it a little curious how s1's charged self is the same as the base for s2, but s2's charge is NOT as strong as base s3. Guess they wanted the ender to really stand out (it is basically just adding s1 and s2 together for s3). I don't agree with each attack along the way having he same modifier when charged. Should be lower at the start and higher at the finish (even if just slightly). Likewise, slightly devalue the opener. Upgrading having so little impact on the power is sort of understandable when the high base option is chosen to keep the thing relevant from lvl1 when gained late enough in the game investments are already made on other things. Upgrade based modifiers could be left as is (amusingly the lvl2's 1.5 is still more than lvl5 Cestus at 1.4). Regarding the base, Cestus s1 when it double hits is 7.5/7.5 (15 if both land) to match lvl3 GoZ (just can't be quickly charged to stun and bump this up to 22.5). Too bad s1 is the same for it as s2 and s3 (while GoZ gets notably stronger down the line, too). Perhaps the new bases at lvl1 on VH would be:

s1 - 5.625 (25% reduction) | 7.03125 (x1.25) *again, while unable to lock like before*
s2 - 11.25 | 16.875 *value/modifier unchanged, but without the stun for locking beyond minor grunts*
s3 - 16.875 (base 22.5 adjusted for VH to keep the growth as a pattern *slight nerf*) | 29.53125 (modifier up from 1.5 to 1.75 *slight buff while keeping the original stun property*)

Ultimately output drops from 37.5 (56.25 when all charged) to 33.75 (53.4375). Noticeably less uncharged (especially if just sticking to a quick s1 check) and not offensively shutting down the enemy. Charged loses some of its control, but is barely weaker IF you can manage all those charged moves (that won't just keep things behaved now). Might have to settle for quickly slapping until at the ender for the devastating haymaker. A 'momentum' based approach to earn the big returns as it were (like BoC). String along for the good stuff (with charging as another facet of that). Heavy ender would have knockback (reduced in value without RO and collisions *which should return*), but the big interrupt and shield/armor busting would remain something you would want charging for. Early parts of the string retain armor/shield chip. Sort of a shame these things don't work in portions as with Onyx. Then s1 would just be worth one portion, s2 alone is worth two and s3 would be worth three (instantly clear away such a bother). That sort of thing.

For now, let's not do every single move. Instead, skip to the light special and Chidori. The former is Olympus Strike. At lvl3 on N we're talking 40DMG (100 after the x2.5 of the charge). Notes talk of possibility of charge modifier being weaker on lower levels, but that's something I can't get into now. Anyway, Chidori is L1+o. A non-attack that you must follow-up with an input to get an attack. The light is Lightning Thrash. The heavy is Lightning Surge. Sadly, the former lacks a listing for damage (just that it is 5 hits). Starting with the known, it is 30, yes. As a MAX only move, no need to fret over the other modifiers (2.0 it is). On VH, the 30 becomes 22.5. It is a match for landing a charged s2...on Normal. Without a stun or armor/shield break. For a longer, unsafe animation you cannot cancel. Yeah. Don't even recall the hit property. Sounds like it needed a buff. Maybe have it do Homerun as a property (for what little that would be worth)? Really, it needs to hit harder in some way.

What of the mechanic I'd noted with run distance? Lightning Run could gain for the number of steps. Not sure what the current limit is. Let's say four. Each step as such would take it from 1.0 to 1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0 as a modifier for the light or heavy. Even more could be done if you could hold the input to run from even further (a move that can be safely canceled up until inputting an attack). Perhaps as much as eight steps for 1.25/1.5/1.75/2.0/2.25/2.5/2.75/3.0. With the known quality that is the 22.5 (on VH), it could cap at 67.5. If compared with the current lvl3 charged s3 on the same setting (37.5), we see it is sitting pretty in exchange for managing to pull off a downtown sprint. Well deserved in my book (when you could be landing other attacks to pile on the hurt). Again, give it something to work with (why should you use it otherwise *just to be 'cool'*). Hell, if you want to be crazy, have it be that the moment you release the run there is a brief flash as with certain other charged attacks. If timed properly you get another boost (doubling whatever you were gonna get while gaining a higher hit property). Just make the player...play better to get more from the thing. I'm only buffing this move as it is crap as is.

Let's compare with Olympic Strike (lvl2 move) at on an even keel (lvl3) without adjustments. On VH the uncharged would be 30 (not quite as good as the charged s3, but pretty close for an instant start-up). Doesn't cover a lot of ground or have higher properties. The charged at 75 is no joke at all. That x2.5 modifier is quite the blessing. You don't see the heavies getting even x2.0 (1.5 again). In fact, you don't see it on the heavy special or anything else. Not even the AIR light special. Probably a bug (2.5 should be 1.5). If making it a feature, it could be about charge duration. Perhaps every 15 (of 30 frames in a second) charging could be +0.25 on the modifier to reach this height of 2.5. This would mean 1.25 at 0.5s charge. 1s charge for x1.5. 1.5s for 1.75. 2s for x2. 2.5s for 2.25. 3s for 2.5.

A sizable nerf on the charged potential of the attack (needing so much time to be what it was instantly before). Maybe throwing it a bone with timed release flashes for more range and even greater power (doubling). Perhaps save the double for the air version (needs the help) while the ground is just x1.5 stronger? The lvl3 on VH would be just 37.5 for 0.5s without a timed release on the ground. With 3s and timed release the difference is that it becomes 112.5 (air is a multi-hit with different values to consider). Both weaker and stronger than before. Again, just more interesting. How practical is it to stand around (doing no other attacks to build damage) to do this? Not very. Even still, it would be cute.

This before touching on something like the inverse of what was done for Chidori (instead of getting stronger with distance from its base, it would start with the base and lose damage the further away from origin you impact the target). If point-blank when landing 3s timed release, you deserve to crush them with that heavy value. However, if done from MAX range? Should probably as much as halve it (56.25). Ouch, I know. The air version could afford a small boon as with gaining in power from distance traveled (while gaining less from charging itself) as this implies building of momentum from gravity (reaching terminal velocity). The greater the height you come down on them from...the greater the output (being the idea).

NOTE: Air Thrash probably needs to just be a changed move (maybe an AoE shocking multi-hit with some other utility like pulling things up and into our current height *maybe blowing them away for light bonus damage if some other input is timed*). No way for Kratos to run on air here, so the proposal already made cannot be applied to save the attack.

>Yes
Right. Aside, from t0 for the shield and parrying into some punish to make things simple, it was 's,t' between blocks (though I imagine there is a case for lazily just spamming lights with the s3 buff (and t1 nerf). This regarding Hyperion Guard. With Death Knights the talk was to keep them at a distance while clearing away the pests before either using ranged chip with t0/t3 (sensible with two at once) or parry strats (not so much turtling).


>both are stunned by the parry
A curious thing about this entry. The Sun Shield parry is a 360 AoE (small, mind you) that registers as a hit (dealing 0DMG) for a degree of stun (enough to effect more than you would expect from its base self to be sure).

>Fire Guard
Probably the best example. Their buggy QTE is another issue with them (not fun when you have to guess what the random button NOT displayed was or take substantial damage not easily recovered).

>severely limited
True. It is rare just to have a different plan to work from (or wall/ground difference where traversal exploitation is considered). This to say nothing of funnels/chokepoints, boundaries, obstructions, etc. Then there is the hazard talk, friendly fire and so on and so forth. The attempt to increase duration came strongly at the cost of replay value and quality.

>Evaluation topic
CoO should also have some info from Tactics/Tips (aside from the 'Comprehensive' thread *pre-release as with demo stuff*). There was a period where things were done more elsewhere (as with gow3forums) that got lost to time, which hurts (most often this comes up for me when talking about NBR+ NUR+ and NGR+ NUR+ as I only have coverage for such things presently for GoW:A.

>cats of Morpheus
Yeah, I ended up blocking them near the entrance. Endurance fight due to low dps.

>GoWII had boss refills as one thing to plan around.
Interesting choice, I remember them tough even without restrictions.

>the sideshow taking center stage *no block, no grab, etc.*
I hope GoZ is allowed. It must be extremely annoying to do almost 0 damage without grabs or block, RO and using only Blades and base magic (weak even at max lvl)

>Let's just hope they don't try for another mobile...
Imagine if they release it on phones and it is a RPG. Fake Kratos was put in Fortnite so we can expect the worst.

>Knack 2
Birdman was the perfect guide for that title, which is the only PS4 exclusive I enjoyed.

>naming conventions
Thanks for the in-depth explanation. Another thing, is t0 (after s4) stronger than after s2 if you only consider this move?

>GoZ
The analysis was very detailed. I agree with your conclusions.

>Fire Guards and their bugged QTE
It's never happened to me, I was lucky.

>TUGOWU and lost info from other sites
You did a great job to analyze these games and a recent GoW player like me can still use that vast knowledge. It's a shame sites die and you lose important info. I heard it happened to the Ninja Gaiden community too.

After CoO, I finished GoS on VH and then I started a NUR+ in GoW1 which I'm finding extremely fun to face. The cage push section was a bit rough and I was impatient because the European version doesn't have a save point (and it's censored too). I was stuck against Centaurs until I started to use the pool like "shinobier" did in his run. Now I'm against the Minotaur boss.  

By the way, do you know if the NG+ glitch works in the digital version of GoW3 Remastered? A guy said to me that you can't do it if you download it  through PS Now. Other people said all PS4 versions (Disc and digital on Playstation Store) can do it.

And that's why I shouldn't read things before I'm ready to respond. I end up putting it way off and/or forgetting.

>interesting choice
Something to plan around to be sure. It would be like doing vanilla or even NUR (not NUR+) and NG+ (to a lesser extent) where bar extensions can be worked as full refills. Need to make smart use of such things or you're just leaving tools on the table. Unwise.

>GoZ is allowed
Why wouldn't it be? The runs are just 'no block' or 'no grab'. Not both. Not with extra conditions. In my case, I skipped to NUR+ to limit more power a bit, but kept the basic options. Another did what I advised against (further limitation with PAIN/PAIN+). Gets a bit distasteful at times with how little you have to work with. You can imagine, I'm sure. Many of our tools were lacking as things were, so I wouldn't be keen on being stuck with BoC (even MAX).

>RPG
Bleh.

>PS4 exclusive
Can't think of too many. What of Bloodborne?

>does t0 change if following certain moves
No, it is the same. They didn't bother to slightly buff it for being further down the chain. More is the pity.

>analyze
Never got around to (even after de-rusting to finish my plate) it with GoW:A. One would have to read through my run coverage to gather than info.

>sites die
Yes. TUGOWU v1. Alt. TUGOWU v1, v2 and v3. Vet Board. Gow3forums. GS v1. GFAQs (likes to clear out their closet from time to time). We've lost a few. People imagine the internet is permanent. Things making it a decade is actually a long time. Even archive sites are not forever (least of all with politics involved).

>happened to the NG kids
I'd have to ask AD if he knows about that. Or perhaps Royboy.

>finished GoS on VH
Runs, when?

>VH NUR+ GoW1
I presume that is done by now. Clone War attempts?

>cage push
A few things to consider if you wish to go over it.

>EU version
Gross.

>save point missing
Oh? One less tool to work, then. No matter.

>like Shin
Yes, his imitation of my first blood pool strat. My second is better still. Darkness is more meant for another run.

>Lower Pandora's Guardian
Not much of a fight. Have to go out of your way to experience something at all engaging. A spectacle with a thin curtain easily torn down to reveal a feeble foe.

>NG+ glitch in GoWIII:R
I'm reasonably sure it made it in. I recall Waffles exploiting it for trophies (again).

>download
I can't speak to that.

>Bloodborne
It's good but I played it when I was bored by Miyazaki's games so I didn't do any challenge runs after a normal NG++.

>GoS
No runs are planned at the moment. It's decent but I'd like to play something better now.

>VH NUR+ GoW1
Almost done. I couldn't play much during these days, but I enjoyed the time with this game. A perfect action-adventure title and I usually hate puzzles, platforming and non-core gameplay sections. The action part is obviously the main dish and it shines better on NUR+ than base VH by a lot. I didn't remember you must position yourself perfectly to grab an enemy and that OH has no i-frames. I have no idea if these were good choices, but I had to be more careful in GoW1 than in portable games while grabbing.

>Lower Pandora's Guardian
Is it more interesting if you fight on the lower floor? Too much health, in my opinion.

>was bored on replays
Not much tilt after a few playthroughs, eh?  Learn the routes, toy with the tools, sample alternative approaches, etc.  The limited number of meaningful gear (unlike with DaS2 SotFS) didn't help.  Then there is the matter of stat REQ making BL4 not quite all it could be (not going to be too much straying fro the ol' Saw Cleaver in vanilla as is).  Spells?  You already know.  Guns?  They're okay.  Personally, I felt the Gatling Gun was pretty lackluster.  Shields hurt me the most.  While foes in general are fine, I do not care for handling of main Chalices (way too much padding that should have been kept to Roots).

Could have afforded to let us (with DLC) make our own, too.  Not just sharing codes or whatever.  Handling of the online elements wasn't the best.  Probably shouldn't have limited it to just a bellringer for invasion.  Her making it more likely and worse would be better than letting people be Online and just take her out to opt out forever (on a non-respawning foe).  The NG+ failing to learn from DaS2...then DaS3 does the same thing (merely giving higher +X rings by and large).

>decent
You can have fun dealing with nonsense there later.  PAIN+ has a few rough patches.  I forget the deal with 'no block' and 'no grab'.  At least you somewhat have to change things up in the latter when up against Deimos (big jobber to tackles).

>usually hate puzzles
Same.

>platforming
I'm not big on the stuff, but I don't hate them.

>non-core
We talking gimmicks like cage push, family protection, sacrificial circles, etc.?

>shines better
Not blowing through HP before things can fight back is one element, but another still is taking away mostly crap (flash) attacks to focus on fundamentals.  The strength of the basics.

>OH Slam without i-frames
While having redirection using the left analog (full control).

>good choices
I'd say so.  As you say, you need to take care when using these (usually) powerful tools lest you get slapped.

>more interesting
I won't exaggerate the situation, but it is much better as the fight goes on, yes.  Once you do the vanilla, I tend to tell people to learn how to multi-lever pull.  You can skip the filler all the way to S4 (when the HP bar is open).  He'll have all his ground moves by then.  If you want to humor him briefly on the platform, you can try fighting from a variety of spots (versus using the sweet spot to make him unable to fight back at all).  Moving around is still a thing (environmental boss) below, but his moves are slightly more threatening (even has some unblockables).  Still nowhere near what he needs to be for VH (which could afford to make alterations to hit properties and such as it isn't even like trophies are tied to it *casuals can eat shit if they don't like it*).

>too much health
Too much DMG needed to get to his HP for basics, anyway.  Artemis and magic have to do work to offset that as you suddenly can't petrify, grab or collide with something.  No environmental unless you count the stakes (which is more an exploit when not used as intended).  With upgrades (lvl5 BoC is 4.0 and with RotG it jumps to x2 so you rip and tear until it is done *easy to blow through the start, spam MP along the way, get refills and dump all over S4 to zip to the finish*).

NOTE: More egregious, to me, would be the count of harpies (or even clones) in Zeus Temple (conveyor belt).  If you're trying to damage kill, Desert Sirens are just stupid.  I don't require that for NGR and higher as it is just insane (rather than 150DMG or so, you need 10K if not using a bug to shatter them).