Monster Hunter games pre-World

I saw the MH topic was getting pretty in-depth, so I thought I'd continue the conversation in a dedicated thread.

>4U maps
Yeah, these fucking suck. The ledge scourge was birthed here, and even outside of that there is plenty of terrible stuff, like whole zones that are slanted ~30 degrees. Rise looks to be a huge improvement in this regard.

>4U monsters
Huh, I like a lot of the ones introduced here, like all Magalas, Seregios, and Molten Tigrex. I also think a lot of the 1st/2nd gen stuff got improved, like Fatalis and Rajang (this fight was pretty good before but is amazing in 4U).

>Apex
I haven't fought apex stuff in a while so take this with a grain of salt, but the quality of the apex monsters varies wildly with where the non-bounce hitzones are placed. If they are reasonable to hit, like Seregios and Rajang, then I find the fight pretty good. On the other hand some of them I haven't even attempted yet (Apex Gravios...)

>FU as favorite game
I have a lot of respect for this game, I really like the difficulty level of the progression and the gimmicks that the MH teams love oh-so-much are thankfully absent here. The armor skills are much more restrained and equipment is all craftable. That being said this game has some annoying bullshit that was fixed later on. AI can get really janky (Rathalos getting stuck shooting cliffs, low rank Diablos sitting in the ground for 7 whole seconds!) and the quests vs. Shen Gaoren and Lao are really boring, I did these fights at higher emulator speeds. Multiple monster quests are kinda BS if they end up in the same zone, since AFAIK dung bombs only work if the monster hasn't detected you, so I just ended up waiting until one left. Overall though I think a hypothetical Freedom Unite 2 with these problems fixed would be the best Monster Hunter game, the closest we got was probably the early-mid lifespan Frontier content.

>Rise fixing maps

You have no idea how happy I was when I saw the flat maps in the trailers. And the wirebug seems a way better way to approach verticality and general mobility. I still have my doubts with Rise, mainly because I see to much of World in it, but this stuff feels like a complete improvment.

>4U

I really don't like the general design, they're not agrressive enough and they just flinch way to easily (Gore and Seregios especially). Rajang is a really low point for me. FU one is one of my favourite monster of all time, I love how aggressive and punishing it is while still being predictable once you learn it. From 4th gen onward it just starts wasting time attacking the air, moving around and going to get boulders.
I agree with Fatalis tho, the one in the older generation were just terribly designed and incredibly boring. The White Fatalis in GU still it's the best iteration imho, really great fight, predictable with a lot of opening if you play aggressive enough and it doesn't have that shitty armor mode.

>Apex

You're right, it varies greatly from monster to monster, but I don't really like how you need to rely on items to not bounce off and to play properly. The idea of forcing you to be precise with your attacks was good, but I think the realization has been pretty poor.

>FU

I agree that it has its flaws, like you said Lao and Shen Gaoren are some of the worst fight in the series and the Fatalis are pretty terrible. Some of the weapons are also pretty barebone and I agree with you that having 2 monster in the same area is just bullshit, probably the only actual unfair mechanic in FU.
That said I just love how pure of a game it is, there are some broken stuff to abuse (like flashbombs), but in general it's just you, the monster and your skill. The focus is completely on correct positioning and knowing when and how to commit to your attacks, and monsters are incredibly aggressive and punish you harshly for mistakes. And outside of some crappy one, the roster is great with Tigrex, Narga and Rajang being some of the best fights in the series.
I also really like the quest progression, with a lot of optional early elder fights (like the 4* village Daora) and general unique one (like the 1 horned Diablos). Elder Dragons in general are fantastic and actually feel special (in later games they feel like normal monsters pretty much), they don't sleep, killing them first time is not easy if you are not prepared and they have some unique mechanics to them (like needing dragon to destroy Teostra's horn).
And finally, even if it's not that important I love the atmosphere of the game, a lot more grounded and misteryous compared to later titles, with the Swamp and the Tower being incredible in that department.
It's not a perfect game by a long shot, but it does well it does it incredibly well and it's a pity they abandoned some of the better designed decision in later entries.

>Apex
Yeah I basically agree with that assessment, the items are kind of a band-aid that prevented the devs from really needing to make sure the bouncing was fair for each monster, when fairness is integral given how punishing the mechanic is when your items are on cooldown.

>4U/GU Rajang
That's interesting, I really like the fight but I can see what you mean about the time-wasting, he does that a bit. The boulder throw I don't mind too much, as you can chase him down and hit him for most of the move while still dodging the throw at the end since it's so biased toward one side. It can get annoying on some maps though, there's a giant open field zone in some GU map where he only has one spot to grab from in some random corner, so I try to keep him near there. He kinda does punch the air a lot though, I wish he wouldn't do that as much. I really love the triple Blanka ball attack they gave him in 4U though, really fun and precise to dodge with your weapon unsheathed and gives a big punish window.

>Magalas/Seregios
They are on the easy side for sure, Seregios feels like his hitboxes are almost too small with how many times I don't get hit despite feeling like I failed a roll or was out of position. Shagaru is cool but the pizza platters he spawns being random are dumb, I wish they were all fixed locations per attack instead of only some being that way. Also the GQ version is stupid, they spawn way too fast which exacerbates the randomness issue. All the Magalas also get dumpstered pretty hard by CB, IDK how much of that is a monster design issue vs. CB being overtuned in 4U (especially KO values).

>FU
Yeah you can really tell which monsters were introduced in 2nd gen, they are generally much better than the 1st gen ones. I feel like something that doesn't get mentioned for whatever reason is just how much stronger the tracking is in FU on stuff like charges, it is extremely noticeable on Tigrex and Akantor and makes staying close to them super important. In FU I played mostly HBG and felt like that really made things a lot more fun, especially given how punishing that weapon is for being out of position. Tigrex in particular is very difficult with HBG, you have to consistently hit some tough rolls to stay in position, and sheathing (very slow on HBG) when you see a charge coming out is not really an option if you want to stay at good ranges for dealing damage. I ended up swapping to Bow just to keep progressing.

The Tigrex example is great actually. That is what I mean when I say that monsters where aggressive and the positioning was super important. You don't just need to dodge the charge, but you need to dodge it a specific way (ie understanding that when he charges he takes the first step with his left, so rolling there and goind under the arms is safer) that changes depending on what weapon you're using.
The other thing to keep in mind, is that monster never really left you alone. Getting hit by the charge is way more punishing in FU, because it could easily mean getting comboed to death depending on how out of position you were.
And some of this stuff has been lost when they decided to make charges "more fair and accurate", streamling the process somewhat.

I've been doing some MHGU again and been having a lot of fun, Soulseer's hitzone system is really cool and a great example of adaptive difficulty/risk-reward mechanics. Ahtal-Ka is also a monster I want to look at more: the mech form is kinda gimmicky and very easy, but the bug form has a lot of sweet spots and iframes you can do to stay super aggressive.

If you want to do some GU hunts of anything fun with the more balanced arts/styles (I use Guild LS with the LS-only arts or no arts at all) then hit me up.

I was talking with my friend the other day about the things Freedom Unite does right, and he challenged me to play melee, since he was getting irritated with the game on GS, and I played HBG mostly. So I made a new character today in Freedom Unite and played some Hammer.

This game is really fun, moreso than I remember. With emulator speedup you can fast-forward anything that takes a long time, like walking through empty zones or gathering, so the first few intro quests go by quick. The low sharpness is kinda rough, but that's nothing new.

I was loving fighting even the basic village Blue Kut-Ku in low rank. The damage is actually pretty respectable for how early in progression this is, the rage modifier is so much more noticeable and impactful in this game, and the big hitbox on the tail spin actually makes the fight more enjoyable since you can't just iframe it. The head hurtbox is so stringent in FU that you really have to be positioned excellently to get the KO buildup + good hitzone value, and figuring out how to setup golf swings on certain moves is surprisingly nuanced. Once I started snagging the head as it turned, I started to actually get KOs and my hunt times went noticeably down.

Damn I fucking love Monster Hunter.

Had a short talk few days ago online with a user on Twitter. He noted how you "shouldn't give up on an idea", and compared the low reviews of older games in the series with World's. I noted that while it reviewed better, it was - IIRC - more streamlined and less liked by fans.

Eventually I closed the conversation because tbh, I don't know enough about it. But yeah. I always get a bit ansy when people 'suddenly' like a game/film but never liked it before. Usually means it dropped what made it so good/unique. Had the same with the Star Trek films for example.

With World it's not as simple as them "selling out," although they were explicitly striving for the Western audience. Some of the changes feel like natural evolutions, some streamline aspects of the game, some add to the core combat, and some take away from it. The trouble is that no one seems to agree on which of these buckets each change falls into, and as a result the status of the game is highly contested among even hardcore Monster Hunter fans.

My perspective on it has evolved somewhat, and in retrospect I think a lot of the major effects on the combat loop weren't thoroughly thought through. For example, in previous Monster Hunter games, once you started a hunt you were stuck with whatever you brought along plus a few quest-specific items. If you forgot something important, it was easy to leave the quest, get what you needed, then go back.

However, with World targeting PS4 and Xbox One, weak specs and HDDs make load times approach 2 minutes for moving from the hub world into a quest. So suddenly that quick in-and-out of getting your forgotten item takes close to 5 minutes. Understandably the devs probably wanted to avoid this, so they let you grab items that you own from the camp during quests. Unfortunately a lot of game systems rely on only having a limited amount of items available per quest, such as farcasters (invincible teleport back to base), max/ancient potions (full heal), gunner ammo (it's complicated but basically gunning is fucked up now), and healing in general.

Basically it's complicated and has a lot of factors at play, some of which I suspect not even the devs are aware of.

Beat low-rank village, didn't take too long all things considered. Some more thoughts:

Double monster quests (e.g. Four Horns) are bullshit, I don't know what they expected the player to do when both monsters are in the same zone. Maybe with a weapon like GS you could do extremely safe hit-and-run attacks, but you can't reliably do any sort of extended fighting, the openings where both monsters will let you attack are too small and random. And since Dung Bombs don't do anything, you basically just have to leave the zone and wait for them to separate (or in my case, unthrottle the emulator speed until they do). Four Horns took me 35 minutes in-game time when other quests at the same rank were taking 10-15 minutes.

Tigrex actually makes sense in this game. The turnarounds give a reliable source of damage, the charge can be rolled under the left leg, while enraged he speeds way up but does a double jump which leaves a big opening afterward. Having a sense for the stagger threshold lets you get in hits that would normally be unsafe, and he staggers frequently on the head, so you can really take advantage of this if you're playing well.

In subsequent games (starting in P3rd? or maybe 4) they added an alternate damaging turnaround where he transitions directly into a charge. This defeats the whole fucking point of the monster, you can't get consistent damage from the turnaround, which also gives you less head hits, so you can't leverage staggers nearly as much to convert unsafe attacks into safe ones. So basically you're stuck twiddling your thumbs as he spams charge over and over until he decides to do a punishable move like spin or double bite, then rinse and repeat. Why even include him then, might as well just cut him or rework the whole fight (e.g. Grimclaw).


What really strikes me about this game is how different it is from both other Monster Hunter games and other action games in general. FU's formula of extreme focus on positioning, high commitment, and enemy AI manipulation is utterly unique. Most action games I know of focus on fast-paced, reactive combat with multiple enemies; that FU approaches the genre from such a different angle is absolutely crazy to me.

This game is converting me, I feel like I'm having the equivalent of a Monster Hunter religious experience. Going for setups on monsters is engaging and consistent, the positioning is important and nuanced, and the monster design is much better than I initially gave it credit for. The maps don't suck ass, and money/points matter but are fun to get by doing random hunts and arena quests.

Freedom Unite is a flawed masterpiece, and there will probably never be anything like it ever again. TaiTsurugi was totally right, this game is easily the contender for peak of Monster Hunter, and possibly top 5 action games in general. WTF, why is this game slept on so hard?

> monster hunter religious experience
The reason Tai probably hasn't replied to this yet is because he's in a coma from happiness haha. How are you playing the game, emulator?

Yeah, I'm using PPSSPP, the very good PSP emulator. From what I can tell MHFU emulation is completely accurate, and the performance is great. This thing runs on junker laptops and even some phones.

Playing on emulator is absolutely the way to go with this game. Many of the game's problems relate to things outside of combat being too slow (traversing and gathering items from the map, shitty filler quests that don't involve hunting monsters, snoozer siege quests) and being able to run the game at 1.5x speed at will completely solves those issues.

There is also the wacky control scheme people use on physical PSP hardware called the Claw, but if you play on emulator you can just use a normal gamepad and save your hands the suffering.

If you upscale the rendering resolution, the game actually looks pretty nice on modern systems too. I assume the texture work was carried over from MH2, so that's probably why.

It's a great game, I remember it getting even better later on last time I played a couple years ago, so I'm looking forward to that. The emulator supports online, so I've even been playing with a few people I know a bit in between solo sessions.

HotPocketHPE wrote:This game is converting me, I feel like I'm having the equivalent of a Monster Hunter religious experience.

It makes incredibly happy that this is the first post I see checking the forum after a long while.
You hit the nail in the head with the Tigrex example, the head turns in general are a key mechanic in the gameplay loop. After they started to remove them the series lost a big part of its predictive gameplay. And just like with the Tigrex, a lot of attacks are balanced with the head turn as the opening, makes it so monsters can be a lot more aggressive.
And yeah, 2nd gen Tigrex is one of my favourite monster, but I can't stand the new iterations, they just waste too much time running around.

I agree with the double monster thing, it's the biggest flaw this games has. Some of the couples can be dealt with using traps and flashes (mainly the Raths), but all the other are just cancer. The game is just not designed to fight more than a monster at once.

HotPocketHPE wrote: WTF, why is this game slept on so hard?

It was incredibly niche when it came out and now it got a terrible reputation thanks to idiots and stupid memes.
Everyone just talks about "broken hitboxes", "cluncky gameplay" and "plesioth hipcheck" without understanding any of the design behind it.

HotPocketHPE wrote: and the big hitbox on the tail spin actually makes the fight more enjoyable since you can't just iframe it.

You can actually iframes trough tailspins but the timing is pretty strict. You need to dodge really late so that the tail goes through you and completely passes you once your iframes run out. You can iframe through a lot in this game even without evasions skills, but some of the dodges require precise positioning.  This video showcases a lot of the cooler dodges you can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdSUhJoHR_Y

If you want to practice, Nargacuga is the best teacher. It has really precise hitboxes and you can iframe through most of its attacks.

HotPocketHPE wrote: The emulator supports online, so I've even been playing with a few people I know a bit in between solo sessions.

Are you playing online with Hunsterverse? If you are we can organize some hunts, always happy to play FU with new people.

Up to the end of high-rank village, got my Ceanataur armor and Nargacuga hammer. Still having a great time.

>iframes
I know you can iframe stuff, I am quite familiar with the ways of the Nargacuga. My point was more in comparing how much harder it is than later games. In 4th/5th gen games, many attacks can just be iframed on reaction, so you can get away with a lot of positioning mistakes. In FU that shit doesn't fly, most of your iframes need to be planned in advance to some degree, since the positioning/timing requirements can be quite tight on some of the rolls.

>video
That's a cool video though. I love the 2008-era MH video aesthetic, with the low recording quality, white text explaining stuff, and metal in the background, it has so much personality. Plus a lot of them (like mazereon's stuff for bowguns) are pretty helpful. I found some random video with 300 views that was a full matchup breakdown of Blangonga vs. Hammer, it's insane that people would just make videos like that randomly. Sadly not something you see as much in modern MH.

>misunderstood design
What is really beginning to boil my blood is how people talk about the mechanics of this game like they're just random jank, instead of deliberate design choices that serve purposes. If people understood that and just preferred the later styles of game, that would be one thing, but I don't think that's what's usually going on.

For example in FU a lot of monsters (Tigrex, Nargacuga, Akantor off the top of my head) have chip damage near their arms that can trip you as they turn. This isn't just something in the game for shits and giggles; it both demands tighter positioning when setting up on head turns and prevents you from just sitting underneath the monster.

Lo and behold, the latter point is an issue with Gore Magala in 4U/GU, who doesn't have any chip at all IIRC, so you can sit under him like a fucking Dark Souls boss for a lot of the fight.

But people talk about this as if it's just some random, annoying thing that's there because the devs felt like it. Part of the problem is that the game kinda does have some stuff that fits that description, like the aforementioned doubles and some of the more annoying zones with respawning small monsters. So then people come to the conclusion that the whole game is like this. The dead-horse memes definitely don't help, as you mentioned.

>reputation in general
The other weird thing I've been thinking about is old MH's relationship to the "action game crowd," i.e the people who like DMC, PlatinumGames, Capcom fighters, etc. I see a lot of them getting into World and Rise, and there's nothing wrong with that, I like Iceborne and Rise looks fun.

But then where are the people from this demographic who play FU, 3U, 4U, GU? I get not playing them when they released, as you said they were kinda niche in the West at the time. Why not go back now and try them though?

Even beyond that, I feel like old-school MH doesn't get that much respect as an action game beyond the people who are already really into it. When people mention the all-time greats of action games, e.g. DMC, God Hand, Ninja Gaiden, PlatinumGames stuff, FromSoft stuff, etc. somehow Monster Hunter is never mentioned.

It's not for lack of popularity, as the series has been big in Japan for years now, and is well-known in the West post-World.
It's not that the game isn't an action game: the combat is very clearly the core element of the game, and there is a strong focus on both enemy design and player toolkits.
It's not that the game is aesthetically generic, has a weak visual style, or has boring music.
It's not that the game is mechanically generic, especially with FU's dramatic emphasis on positioning, commitment, and prediction.
It's not that the game isn't challenging, especially for newcomers and for older games.

So what is it?

In a certain sense it reminds me of the people who get really into Touhou games, but only play those and never try other arcade-style shmups. I get liking Touhou, I played TH8 and liked it, it's a good game. But it's not like Touhou has some secret gameplay sauce that no one else has managed to replicate. Other games have great bosses, music, aesthetic, and difficulty as well, and many have strengths in areas that Touhou neglects.

So why don't these people at least try other games? I get the sense this phenomenon and the MH one have similar origins, but I don't quite understand it in either case.

>online
We have been using the built-in adhoc server and Hamachi, but I can set up Hunsterverse as well if that is easier. I'm totally up to play some MP.

As I was saying in the other thread, I'm playing MH3U at the moment. My precedent experience with the series is limited (I've completed offline content in Tri and Low Rank in MHFU), but I like this type of formula and I don't find these titles "old".

When I started MH3U it didn't give me a good impression. Yeah, you can use again old weapons so it's definitely a step up from MH Tri, but enemies are extremely nerfed and difficulty is abysmal, especially if you play other MH or action games.

I think I started to enjoy it when I did the last LR Guild quests where monsters are finally a bit aggressive and they have decent health. At High Rank the game is still permissive but too many errors can lead to death. I hope G Rank will be interesting enough but I'm positive.

If we talk about monsters I'd say the roster is well designed. There are some faults here and there but they did a good job overall and I really like Brachydios and Zinogre which weren't in Tri. Unfortunately Barioth, my favourite monster in Tri, was nerfed with the introduction of a new move (a hip check) that replaces a different one, much more dangerous.

Underwater combat must be discussed. In MH Tri I didn't hate it, but I didn't appreciate it either. Now that I have used all melee weapons I can say that it hurts the game. Not all weapons are equal and it's awkard to dodge some attacks underwater. I like some aspects of it when I fight Lagiacrus or Royal Ludroth but it's a mechanic that wasn't implemented well and it's probably difficult to develop it even with higher budgets.

The worst defect is the presence of charms. They are RNG accessories that can enhance your build but you haven't full control in obtaining them like armors or decorations (acquired with specific monster parts). In addition to this if you have a "cursed" table (decided at the start of the game by some clock mechanism ) you are stuck with a small pool of terrible charms.

This is in brief what I think of MH3U. I prefer MHFU over it but it's still a good game and I'd recommend it to anyone.

By the way, do MH veterans here have an opinion on MH Frontier? It had a lot of hardcore content and it was shut down some years ago, but it was despised by several fans of the main games. There is a team which is trying to create a private server so I'm curious to play it in the future.

Glad you're enjoying the game overall!

>"old" MH
I only call it old MH to differentiate from World and Rise. Those games made major changes to a lot of fundamental mechanics so I find it best to separate the two categories.

The games themselves aren't really dated or anything. Most of the jank comes from MH1/2 holdovers, as those games had very different design goals than everything after them.

>difficulty
In the western version of 3U they gave hunters 50 free defense LOL. This isn't the case in 3G, the Japanese release. Other than that, the difficulty is mostly fine I feel. G rank is decently hard as usual, and if you want real pain you can try event quests.

>underwater
This was a cool idea but ultimately a mistake. Too hard to balance, too different from normal combat, too much extra development resources.

I picked up Gunlance in 3U just to deal with it more easily, guarding is a huge boon underwater and GL's underwater forward+x has ridiculous mobility.

>roster
It's decent, I like a fair bit of them. Zinogre, Barroth, and Deviljho are cool, and the beginner monsters like Royal Ludroth are good.

That being said it's got some stinkers for sure. Qurupeco is really unique, but having a monster designed around summoning other random monsters is pretty dumb gameplay-wise, it just leads to Dung Bomb spam. Gobul is shit, Lagiacrus has some really stupid moves underwater, Dire Miralis is too much like 2nd gen Fatalis for its own good.

>charms
They suck, even in later games without the charm table glitch. Anything with 3 slots is usually good enough, but it's still stupid anyway. The World system is worse though.

>frontier
I played it for a few months on the Taiwanese server when the game was shutting down and went F2P for a short time. Really interesting and cool game. The thing you have to understand is that it lasted for almost 10 years continuously, so the game has an insane amount of content spanning the entirety of it's lifespan.

The gameplay also went through various phases over time, so monsters like Espinas (might as well be from FU) coexist with Elzelion (fast-paced with multiple one-shot moves, but counterbalanced by crazy hunter kits). Older Frontier stuff is classic MH action, and I enjoyed the later stuff once I accepted it for what it was.

What differentiates newer Frontier from newer MH for me is that Frontier explicitly designs things around their new gameplay styles, while newer MH seems too lost and hesitant to do this very often.

>"old" MH vs "new" MH
Some years ago I tried World at a friend's house but it didn't click with me. It was obviously a superficial play but Tri was good enough to keep me playing, its incompleteness wasn't a problem for a novice like myself.

>extra defense in western release
I heard about that and it's a shame. I'm almost sure some monsters do less charges than in Tri. Barroth and Diablos are the first to come to mind. However it's G Rank what matters so I can tolerate that.

>Qurupeco
Yeah, its gimmick doesn't add anything worth design wise but it isn't more terrible than some other quests which force you in a 2vs1 scenario. I'd say Deviljho is one of the most annoying monsters that interfere during your hunts ignoring for longer a Dung Bomb.

>Gobul
I completely agree.

>Lagiacrus
True, but I still like it most of the time.

>charms
Is the fanbase ok with that? Speedruns must be full of cheaters thanks to this system.

Apart of MHFU, what titles are the must have in your opinion? MH4U and MHGU should be obvious, I suppose. Are P3rd and Freedom 1 good choices? I don't know if MH3U and MHFU make them "obsolete".

>charm cheating
It's a small issue but not that big, there are limits on what charms can be generated. Sharpness 10 Handicraft 10 OOO isn't possible, for instance.

>must-play
My MH tier list:
S: FU, GU
A: P3rd
B: 4U, 3U
C:
D: Iceborne

Haven't played Freedom 1 any significant amount.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask!

>P3rd
Why have you put it higher than 3U? I did some research and people say it's too easy and it has less content. It should have some exclusive fights and no underwater combat, but I would be interested to know your opinion because you understand MH and the action genre.

>GU at same level as FU
Glad to hear that.

>P3rd
No underwater to deal with (big point for me), some gen 2 monsters return without being butchered (Tigrex, Akantor, etc). No G-rank is obviously the biggest flaw.

That being said, I have played much less P3rd than the other games on that list, so take my rating of it with a bit more skepticism.

>difficulty
My opinions on difficulty in MH have somewhat changed over time. I love hard difficulty, but to some degree you can create that yourself by not upgrading your armor's defense, or doing other challenge runs. There is a guy who plays through the games without healing even!

For me, the most important aspect is the fight designs. Does positioning matter? Can the monster's movement be controlled? Are there opportunities for setups? Are the attacks interesting to dodge, with multiple evasion strategies that have different pros and cons?

The challenge runs I suggested earlier can't create these things unfortunately. If you want difficult monster design, I highly recommend GU's Deviants! They are designed to provide stiff resistance for even experienced players.

>P3rd
So if you restrict yourself with an unupgraded armor it plays similar to G Rank in MH3U or are there bigger differences in terms of Enemy AI or something else?

>difficulty
I agree with you and it's an undeniable truth that the vast majority of action games shine more with some restrictions even on the highest setting. If fight design isn't well managed then no difficulty can save your game.

>guy who does no healing runs
Interesting. Do you have a link?

>P3rd
The aggression won't be G rank levels but your damage taken will approach it. In terms of AI, usually the Portable team made monsters have much more controlled movement. Some of this was carried over to 3U of course.

Honestly I like P3rd just because you don't have to deal with as much annoying stuff from 3U. Also since it's a PSP game you can emulate it and use things like speedup.

Again, haven't played too much P3rd so grain of salt.

>no healing guy
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIc2HRNt0ynkigtHDQ1dePg
He streams on Twitch and archives it here.

I've just tried Monster Hunter Freedom on PPSSPP and I was not disappointed. This game is the definitive edition of the first generation and it still hass its charm (no pun intended).

Great Sword must be played more as a combo weapon because you can't do any charged attack, money is relatively scarce, small monsters seem even more aggressive than in MHFU. I was hunting a Blue Yian Kut-Ku and I had to dodge four Velociprey and one Vespoid all the time. In MH3U you can completely ignore small monsters, Rhenoplos or Bullfango hit you sometimes but it's irrelevant. I think every monster must be a valid enemy or at least it should pose a threat, Itagaki docet.

You may find the following videos interesting, though I don't agree with everything in them:

This guy talks about the difference in design goals between MH1/2 and subsequent games.


The esteemed mazereon (of MHFU gamefaqs fame) talks about the reduction in challenge from gens 1/2 to gen 3.

>mazereon's video
I watched that video not too long ago and I agree with the majority of his arguments. I still like MH3U, but the fatigue system, "fair" hitboxes, lower damage taken, some unpredictable attacks, "god" charms and underwater combat too lead to a lower skill ceiling. There are some quests which are more difficult than the average one and you can highlight the fight design better with some restrictions, but I understand why MH3U can be seen as a regression from MHFU.

>MH2
I haven't watched all the video yet but it's an interesting analysis. Monster Hunter Dos seems very different and unique even among older titles, but I'm more or less sure that I couldn't tolerate it because a lot of its simulation aspects are obstacles to the combat. In my opinion the right balance between combat and gathering/grinding/farming was already reached in MHFU. Some animations could be sped up a little (thanks PPSSPP) but I don't have any major complaint.

>MH2 video
I also found it extremely interesting. It explains a lot of vestigial features that have been in the series for years: they initially had purposes that furthered the goal of the game, but as that goal changed, they ceased to fill this role.

His appraisal of the old combat is the video's biggest flaw. He labels the old combat as clunky (not true), claims the new combat is better (not IMO), and implicitly downplays the combat-related differences between Mainline and Portable team.

The main thing I got out of it is how much the priorities of the series have changed. It's not written in stone that the gathering in MH has to be boring. They could have improved and refined it, but, for better or worse, they decided to just drop it altogether. Now it's another thing for fans of this dizzyingly confused and conflicted franchise to argue about.

I've finished the video.

>colonization and narrative discussion
Just why?!

>clunky combat in older titles
I don't think he understands what it means.

>"dps boss fights"
I don't agree with this. Gathering or slaying 20 velociprey can't be the main dishes even if you are more into a "simulative" MH. MHF1 and MHFU reached the right balance as I said.

>MH1 can be ignored
Not too sure about that. Yeah, you can play MHF1 and have more or less a similar experience plus additional content, but you would have less gathering and grinding quests. MHF1 is ideal for people like me who are more interested in killing large monsters than in delivering a lot of eggs, but he should defend the first title with some conviction.

The main problem of the video is the distinction between Dos and "portable titles". The latter are too different to be put in the same category. Dos' review was interesting and informative, I think he should have aimed for a smaller topic and I wouldn't have had any complaints at the end.

I'm keep playing MHF1 and it's still pretty entertaining. I almost finished the Village (Lao Shan Lung and Gold Rathian+Silver Rathalos are the last fights I have to do) and LR Guild.

I mainly use the hammer and this weapon is so satisfying to master. Yian Garuga is the most interesting monster, but almost all the roster is pretty solid. If we talk about exceptions I'd say I'm not a big fan of Cephadrome and Khezu seems a bit timid compared to the one in MHFU, though.

Nice! Cool to hear that you're enjoying F1. One of the MH guys I talk to says F1's his favorite.

I'm almost done with every Village quest in MHFU, took me a while. Only the heavy hitters left for me: double Rajang in the arena, Demon King Diablos (HR Diablos with G-rank stats), and KD/Chameleos after that. Doing all that unlocks the Monster Hunter quest: G-rank Rathalos, Narga, Tigrex, and Rajang in the arena.

Mainly using Hammer so far (a weapon of pure beauty), but picked up Dual Blades as well, plus HBG when the monster calls for it. Playing these older games has made me much better at stagger control and angling hits, it's awesome that even after thousands of hours I'm still improving a lot.

Looking forward to G-rank! Last time I did it with HBG, so it will be interesting to tackle it with melee this time around.

Two monsters in the arena are pretty intimidating, Dual Rajang quest comes close to a nightmare if you aren't experienced enough. Gold Rathian + Silver Rathalos quest gave me trouble so I decided I'll do it after High Rank from which I should learn something and become a better player. I won't cheat using higher gear than the one I can create in low rank, it must be a challenge afterall.

High Rank in MHF1 seems easier than MHFU. I'd say early-mid LR is more difficult in MHF1 than in MHFU, but after that elder dragons and other new monsters like Tigrex turn the tables.

Kirin + extremely aggressive small monsters, Black Gravios without a good setup, Dual Gravios in the arena, these three missions are the hardest ones in MHF1 (in High Rank of course). Other quests are more manageable.

>friend who chooses MHF1 as his favourite
I can understand that opinion but I still think MHFU is better than MHF1 in every way, a perfect sequel which integrates new monsters and weapons from MH Dos in the portable structure of Freeedom. You can ignore the Felyne companion (or you can just choose a pacifist cat) and don't rely on some armor's abilities if you want a more restricted experience.

Basically done with LR+HR village, only thing left is a random Chameleos quest that hasn't shown up yet. On to G rank!

>2 Rajang arena
It's not at the same time thankfully, provided you can kill the first one in 10 minutes. Beat it my first try, but I've fought Rajang quite a bit across the series, as well as a few times in FU of course.

>"...from which I should learn something and become a better player."
Indeed. Every wall is a learning experience!

>Gold+Silver
Haven't done this but I imagine traps+flashes are key. Silver's flying attacks are extremely easy to avoid when under him, so that may provide opportunities to hit Gold safely.

>Demon King Diablos
Now this is hard. Multiple attempts to complete, and the winning one was 35 minutes with 2 faints with Hammer, which is very strong in FU! High-Grade Earplugs are invaluable here.

Lots of tricks you can use with the positioning and AI to get more openings, but small errors in placement or timing often means eating full hits. The enraged dig eruption was doing 70% to me in upgraded, end of HR armor. Ouch.

>Kirin
Fuck this monster, extremely erratic movement and difficult to get a sense for how much damage you've dealt. Only good thunder Dual Blades line in FU is Kirin, so I guess I won't be using those. Gunning this makes it a bit better, but not much.

>Black Gravios
Water LBG all the way. There are strategies for melee that can help (such as hitting the tail tip during gas farts) but it's still a pain.

>F1 guy
He just has a soft spot for the game, IIRC he has said that FU is the definitive MH PSP experience.

I'm in the throes of G rank, tough stuff. Fun though!

>F1 Double metal raths
F1 guy just told me that the double Metal Rath quest is meant for G rank gear. Might be useful info for you haha.

>G rank
Good job! There will be a lot of interesting quests, for sure.

>F1 Double metal raths
I did that quest and low rank gear is fine. There's some sort of modifier that nerfs those monsters so they're a bit easier than their G rank counterparts. Flash bombs for the win!

I almost finished every High rank quest in F1 but I got a bit bored thanks to Lao Shan and I went back to FU. It's even better than my memories. It's so much more refined than F1 without losing the original charm. Congalala, Blangonga, Daimyo Hermitaur and Shogun Ceanataur are fantastic additions and 4 stars quests have already Kushala Daora and Tigrex.

Input lag and some recovery frames are very rough in certain circumstances in F1, but these problems are fixed in FU. It's still a 30 fps game, but its responsiveness is on another level.

I've been working on this guide for classic MH, I would love any feedback if you have the time!
https://hotpockethpe.github.io/mhguide/

>F1 Double metal raths
Maybe he was talking about another quest and I misinterpreted. That's awesome that you beat it though, especially if he wasn't!

>Lao
Yeah he's a snoozer as we all know, especially if you actually need a drop from him.

>FU
I'm really enjoying it as well, it's changed how I view the series for the better. Hammer is kinda broken damage-wise but the moveset is really technical, it's so fun to play. The superpound especially is weird (arguably janky) but in a way that allows for a lot of skill expression.

>Daimyo and Shogun
I love these monsters, I feel like they're slept on. The way they determine and telegraph their attacks based on their movement lets you interact with their AI in a way that feels organic. Really fun in G rank.

>guide
I think it's very good at clarifying a lot of mechanics for new players. I wish I could have read it when I started MH. I'd only add a weapon section where you explain the basics and how to optimize a hunt with every weapon. It doesn't need to be very in depth, a general idea is enough for a novice.

>Lao
The music at the end is the only thing I like about it. It's probably intended as a coop fight but it's still a boring concept.

By the way, if you haven't done it yet you should activate the blood "cheat". It's not a true cheat because it only enables more blood like in the uncensored original release (MHP2ndG), just be sure to not activate the "extreme" version of it which heavely interferes with visibility and can't be used in multiplayer.

>P2ndG blood cheat

Did this, thanks!

Been chipping away at FU intermittently, I'm trying to do every G-rank quest with approximately on-par gear so it's taking a while. Fun though!

I really can't overstate how much knowing how staggers work transforms the game. It creates order from chaos; even small quirks in the AI become huge opportunities if you can leverage them properly.

The importance of aiming well in melee is also unparallelled, I know of no other game that even comes close. And the way it interacts with the stagger system and adds risk/reward is absolutely sublime.

I hope one day there can be more interaction between the classic MH community and the action game community. Both could learn a lot, and enrich each other's perspectives.

HotPocketHPE wrote:Been chipping away at FU intermittently, I'm trying to do every G-rank quest with approximately on-par gear so it's taking a while. Fun though!

I really can't overstate how much knowing how staggers work transforms the game. It creates order from chaos; even small quirks in the AI become huge opportunities if you can leverage them properly.

The importance of aiming well in melee is also unparallelled, I know of no other game that even comes close. And the way it interacts with the stagger system and adds risk/reward is absolutely sublime.

I hope one day there can be more interaction between the classic MH community and the action game community. Both could learn a lot, and enrich each other's perspectives.

https://stinger-magazine.com/article/monster-hunter-freedom-unite/

Maybe this will help out haha, Tai worked hard on getting this article ready and it looks great imo. Hope it brings the series under the attention of other action-fans!

HotPocketHPE wrote:

I really can't overstate how much knowing how staggers work transforms the game. It creates order from chaos; even small quirks in the AI become huge opportunities if you can leverage them properly.

Stopping a charging Tigrex with a well timed Great Sword hit is still one of the best feeling in Monster Hunter imho.
It's kinda of a shame that the importance of "exploiting the ai" became less and less important with future games, it's one of those little things that really add up to make the combat click.

Arleady said on Twitter, but I really hope that either this discussions or the article can help in getting someone interested in FU or in the "old" series in general.

The FU journey continues, I'm on the last quest rank so the conclusion is in sight. Tough nuts to crack ahead though.

Recently tried out Lance, thought it would be useful for a certain multi-monster quest (Pink Rathian, Red Khezu, Gravios), and indeed it was. Now I've been doing some Scarred Garuga in G2 with it, and it's a really interesting weapon!

You have a big shield to block things, but it uses stamina, and multi-hitting attacks will rip up your guard. Your lance itself has straight pokes and high pokes, both of which are very precise. The high poke does slightly more damage, which is an awesome design decision since it rewards you for being closer.

The armor skills Evade+2 or Evade Distance Up (I'm using the latter) give your sidestep dodges more iframes and distance respectively, which completely changes the weapon's playstyle. You can now play extremely aggressive and stick on the monster, but stamina management is critical if you aren't using Dash Juice. Additionally, your movement is basically a straight line, so the angle you travel at can be absolutely critical. There's a crazy amount of nuance here, I'm barely touching upon any of it.

It's also crazy how much different matchups change fights. Normally I would do Garuga with Hammer, a very favorable matchup where stagger control and head turn hits are key, but with Lance it's all about tight movement and clean positioning. Each move becomes more or less frequent, and more or less dangerous.

Started playing this and so far it's been lots of fun. Some mechanics are pretty self explanatory but some others are a bit harder to understand.
Like, how does staggering work exactly? I know there are staggering thresholds for every monster, but they change for every hitzone. If a monster has a ST of 200 HP on both the head and wings (for example) and I deal 195 HP of damage on both hitzones, could I stagger the monster twice in a row?

I only have MHW on Steam and I liked what little I've played of it so I'm interest in getting into this series. Would Freedom Unite on PPSSPP emulator be a good place to start?

Here is a guide I wrote, you can refer to it for some basic info.

>Stagger
The buildup is per part, every part has its own independent meter and threshold to trigger.

The key thing to remember is that you can't stagger a monster while it's already staggered, but it will still reset the buildup. So in your example, if you wait to hit the second part until the first stagger ends, then you can get 2 in a row. But if you don't wait, then the stagger buildup won't trigger a stagger but still reset back to 0. This is important for monsters with head trips like Teostra and Kushala.

>FU on PPSSPP
Personally I think so, but keep in mind World and FU play differently, FU is a lot more punishing and positioning-based (which I like more). Might as well try it, it's fun and you can just drop it if it doesn't click with you.

Thanks. Didn't know that. Sound pretty awesome. I find hard to track the stagger in general, but in due time I'll get the hang of it.
Just beat the Urgent Tigrex quest (lv.4). By far the hardest fight up until now. I had to use 4 Flashbombs and 3 Shock Traps. He just doesn't give a fuck.

>Guide
I'll check it out!

Tigrex is really hard until you know how to manage the staggers, he'll just run around nonstop and the tracking is brutal. The key is to take advantage of the head turns, setup weapons like GS and Hammer have an easier time but most weapons can do it (except maybe HBG no evade extender). Also stay close to him to make him do the bites and spins more.

Retried Tigrex with more patience and more focus on his turns and it went much better. "Only" two traps and two Flashbombs, but I have a better understanding of him now. With the LS I used O and R during the turn and Tri and Tri+O after the bites or tail attack.  Still have no idea what to do when he's enraged except using Flashbombs, traps or making him get stuck on a wall. Now onto the lv.5 quests.

Fought some Elder Dragons. Chameleos is cool but a bit frustrating, I have to practice the Sonic Bomb throws. For Kirin I don't know how to damage him effectively outside of trading hits. I've seen that you can stunlock him, I should try that. Lunastra is great, probably my favourite monster so far. I like how she changes the direction of her charge sometimes, so you always have to be vigilant. The only annoying part is the fire aura, but I should have crafted more poison knives.

Also did some low rank Guild quests, mainly Rathalos and Rathian. They can eat a bag of dicks. The instant charge is ok with Yian Kut-Ku, since he has a small hitbox, but it's absolutely trash with them. You can never damage them safely outside of Flash Bombs and traps.

>chameleos
You actually dont really need the sonics, you can use your hunter's sprinting away animation to tell where he is. Also once you fight him enough you get a feel for how he moves even without seeing him

>Kirin
I dont really like this fight, the easiest way to cheese it is pellet bowgun so I do that. I think there's a GS stunlock setup but I haven't tried it. The lightning has fixed patterns so you can hit then if you learn them, it's mainly him jumping around that's annoying.

>Luna
Fun fight, I agree. Staggering the head also removes the fire aura for a while in addition to tripping her.

>instacharge
You have to respect it and play around it, by its very nature you cannot just react. If the monster is in neutral and looking at you then you are already in danger, you should be getting out of the way, getting ready to block/superman dive, or banking on a stagger.

I can record a video against Rathian if you like, what weapon would you want to see?

>flashes/traps
These are not necessary, I've done almost all of the game solo without using them. Maybe for Tigrex you will "need" them, but that's because for new players he's very mean for where he's placed in the game, I've beaten him plenty of times without flashes/traps.

>hunter's sprinting away animation
That's a pretty cool detail.

>Staggering the head also removes the fire aura for a while in addition to tripping her
Yeah I noticed this too today after I fought here again (also killing her). The aura goes away for very long actually.

>You have to respect it and play around it
I know but I can't seem to find some safe punish windows for the fuckers. The only ones being the fireball attack and the taunt animation. You are either in danger for the charge or the tail spin. This isn't a problem with Kut-Ku since it's pretty small, but for Rathian and Rathalos is pretty hard.

>I can record a video against Rathian if you like
It would be great! Thanks in advance.

>what weapon would you want to see?
Either LS or GL. Your choice.

>Traps and bombs
Yeah but they are pretty convenient, maybe too convenient. 10s of free damage is nothing to sneeze at. I'll try to use them less going forward.

Some notes:

Advancing slash (forward + Tri) is key in this matchup. Respectable MV, great movement, resists wind pressure.

After tail flip is a good time to get a wyvern fire off, you won't be wind pressured during the chargeup. Can also advancing slash in for a head hit.

The charge can either end in a bite or a followthrough. For the bite you can punish if you've spaced in advance. I do that quite a few times by using advancing slash to dodge the charge, then turning around and getting quick pokes off. For the followthrough, if you block it it will count as having been "hit by" the hitbox, so  you can safely stick close to her and follow since the same hitbox can't hit you again.

In general fast head turns = charge, slow head turns = fireball. There are other outcomes but it's a good rule of thumb.

Don't be afraid to sheathe, your unsheathe attack is good and running around lets you control the spacing more effectively.

Rathian's head is incredibly weak to cutting (80 hitzone), so you can reliably get staggers with poke strings. You can use this to extend your damage or interrupt head turns if you count hits.

Because shelling is hitzone independent, you can get a lot of sneaky shots in on bad hitzones, like when she's flying or tail spinning. This goes double for Long shelling, which has more range.

Monster AI in general is heavily influenced by your positioning. For Rathian she will tend to do fireballs at mid range, so you can hang out there during neutral to try to fish one out. At the end you can see the opposite, where I'm distracted by the Velociprey so I get stuck with garbage spacing for a while, which makes Rathian charge a lot.

Side note but later in the game you can get the skill Evade Dist Up, this makes your hops go much further which I love for Lance/Gunlance aggression. Would recommend trying it out once you get access to it.

LS should be easier than GL, it has great mobility and the movement is a lot simpler.

Hopefully the video and tips help you!

>Flashes and traps
I treat them like DMC items, they are there if you need them but I find it more fun to go without. I'll use the ones they give you in arena though.