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Jumping seems to be in, no dodge

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1 Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:58 pm

A note from the Edge interview is that jumping is the only method of dodging available. They really seem to be aiming to do something fresh. Very curious. Of course it is being lauded as 'an originator' and a 'trendsetter', ignoring every basic arcade game, Devil May Cry and more that came before it. Enfin, that's just the state of gaming journalism.

What about you guys, you excited for this?

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2 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:14 am

Birdman


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'an originator' and a 'trendsetter'
haha yeah. Some devs are doing this too, regurgitating ancient concepts and presenting them as completely original. Then the journalists parrot the same shit as if they started gaming that very day. Ghost of Sushi IS Kengo Zero, and old X360 game.

What about you guys, you excited for this?
Yes, because it looks like FROM is going back to its old style. I'm sick to death of these Souls games and no one knowing what came before them. FROM has been one of my favorite devs long before Souls existed.

As for the no dodging thing, I'm guessing the jump and grapple hook thing will have something to them, and I noticed heavy blocking use in the video. There will most likely be something with blocking like counters or deflecting.



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3 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:04 am

The game seems to emphasise its parry/block system a lot in interviews, which does make me wonder why. The katana is notorious for being designed in such a way that blocking with it is impossible, as the sword breaks. This is because it is so sharp, which is needed to cut through samurai armor. Miyazaki's games often get weapon-lore wrong anyway though (just look at how greatswords are wielded), so might just be a continuation of that trend.

> originator
Just so sadly. My favorite moment was when Assassin's Creed 2 got announced with a big reveal: you could do ledge-takedowns and the whole audience lost its marbels despite nearly every stealth game doing that since the PS1 days.

> excited
Same. While I never dove into their classics I always found it a shame that such a talented developer got stuck making the same s*** every year. Here's to a new direction. I am not looking forward to all these fans diving into NGB and similar games afterwards and shitting on them though for not being like Sekiro. Just as I'm not looking forward to the decade long DMCV fellatio that is awaiting us.

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4 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:22 pm

Cryoshock

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Nioh 2 is the main thing I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing more of, but Sekiro is definitely up there. Really want to see the combat in action. Very interested in seeing something that isn't just dodge-dodge-attack focused, if you catch my drift.

Let's just hope that they do jumping better than they did in Dark Souls lmao.

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5 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:30 am

Yeah jumping in Souls was always...a special kind of special haha. I'm curious too, the whole 'universal dodge button you can mash' is slowly becoming a minor problem that is expanding with every day it is alive within action games. Bayonetta and Souls really popularized it.

Sekiro almost feels like a return to form not just for the team and their series, but also the genre. Going away from RPG mechanics etc and focusing on just pure combat.
Note that fights seem to be quite big, with sometimes 7 foes at once.

Could this finally be a great new action title without RPG tropes that isn't in a series we already know? Would be amazing!

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6 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:05 pm

Cryoshock

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>universal dodge
It's funny, because I feel like NG solved this problem ages ago by just offering other forms of avoiding damage, like the wall-runs, jumping onto enemy heads, and the like. Hell, older games that I don't even know about have probably solved it.
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a dodge -without- iframes, so that positioning plays a much bigger role in combat. I hear that The Surge had something like this, with your character having both a high and a low dodge, neither with iframes, but I also hear that it has plenty of its own problems.

>Sekiro
It feels good to see a pure action title again. And with the extra mobility, multi-enemy fights could be a blast, rather than pure tedium. I have to admit, I'm also a little tired of the emphasis on fighting single enemies that we've had for awhile now... both Soulsborne and Nioh come to mind.

>great new action title
I really hope so. I want it to sell well enough that people become less afraid of making pure action titles. I'm hoping that having the From name attached to it will help with that.

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7 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:11 pm

I was actually considering, heavily, to make a quick article entitled "Sekiro, Resurrection in more ways than One" noting that to go forward, FromSoftware is looking to the past both in terms of their vision (going back to their old pre-Souls style) and in terms of mechanics. 
As you note a lot of things this game is promoting has been done before, in spades. Gaiden had the dodge nailed with tons of ways to avoid attacks (something I noticed even more in my now on hold PAIN+ run). DMC added i.frames to its jump since Kamiya noted that testers, when paniced, pressed dodge instead of his complex dodge maneuvre. 
Hell even in Sengoku3 you technically 'dodge' by strafing up and down to avoid attacks. It is cheap, but it works ;p

> no i.frames dodge
Look no further than the gospel that is Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. Probably one of the more underappreciate games in the genre. Very well made game, especially for its time. Tons of emphasis on grapples, throws and weapon stances. It isn't really complex like a Devil May Cry or as deep as something like Ninja Gaiden but it really holds its own. But as note, not a single i.frame in the whole game. If you space your grabs wrong or at the wrong time you can see your whole HP bar melt on Hard Mode while your in that animation.

> Surge
Never played it, but sounds interesting. I'll do some digging, see if I can't find an expert to weigh in on the matter.

> high and low dodge
Really like this idea, something I loved in Nioh as well.

> single enemy
Ninja Gaiden 2 is bringing this to my mind, everything seems to play it safe with 1 on 1 which is easier to design. NG2 is wrecking me with these huge fights that I come out hurt in body and soul, but also invigorated since it just feels so damned good to play and fight so many foes at once.

> success
I really hope Activision isn't going to milk this dry and leave FromSoft out to dry. I really hope FromSoft knows what they're doing, companies like Activision have destroyed companies bigger than them before.

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8 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:21 am

Birdman


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no i-frame dodge
Some old PS2 action games are like this, though I don't recall many. Dororo (Blood Will Tell) and I think Berserk.

What I found this lead to in gameplay was, not actually using them do dodge attacks, or at least not as they come out. We do this because we know we're safe because the i-frames cover us.

But without, I remember in Dororo rarely using the dodge moves like this because you'd be hit by big moves due to them lasting longer than the dodge or if a boss had a big swing.

It's really like you said Cryoshock. It became more positioning because the side dodges gave a quick speedy shift to the left or right. I actually ending up dodging a with the dash or dashing attack which is a slide kick. Also baiting bosses into attacks and hitting them while they recovered. In depth knowledge of EVERY attack required.

Overall, definitely more thinking and effort involved than a single invincible dodge you can just pop put as soon as you see the enemy twitch.

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9 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:41 am

>High/low dodge
Viewtiful Joe shouldn’t go unmentioned, you can duck high or low to avoid attacks.

>Dodges with no Iframes
PN03 also has no iframe dodges, check the dodge topic in general discussion for more details.(it is a shooter if that’s relevant, but dodges are dodges).

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10 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:17 am

Yeah the whole 'just mash dodge when an enemy blinks at you' mindset needs to go, or dodging should at least go back to a more complicated nature. Ninja Gaiden (sorry) had a pretty smart system in that dodges had a long recovery but could be canceled with shurikens or a jump to extend the length, but you were vulnerable during these and wide open afterwards. A nice 'should I or shouldn't I' set of ideas.

I always dislike it when I see (again, sorry) a Dark Souls video of someone playing and half the fight is them mashing dodge until the foe is open and then press attack once. The same happens in Bayonetta to an extent and even Killer is Dead thanks to its dodge limitation being easily canceled out of.

> PN03 dodge
I was never sure about this, do we have real notes on this? I remember playing the game extensively but I could never nail this down. Didn't the jump have i.frames on startup or something?

> VJ
The actual dodge (slow motion) was fully i.framed though, but good points on the up and down duck. Same with God Hand in that respect to a degree. Though it's back dodge had i.frames.

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11 Re: Jumping seems to be in, no dodge on Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:10 am

Birdman


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PN03 definitely has no i-frames. I've tested it and the animation gets cancelled when you get hit.

I've mentioned this before but keep forgetting to test it. If you dodge a shot late, but still enough to avoid you will see some sparks come off her suit as the shot grazes her. At last, I think that's what happens. I kept seeing it when not expecting too, and for some reason every time I played it I was always playing super seriously so just kept going, then I'd forget about it. I don't know why. I'm starting to question its existence now.

The jump definitely didn't. I've been hit out of it at every stage so unless the timing is so precise, I don't think it has any i-frames. Yeah, I'm just going to state as fact that this game has none outside of special moves. I played this so much and tested the dodge. Nothing.

The jump is good though. I like how you can use it to avoid certain attacks like those missiles by doing a forward jump as they come down. There's other options too but I'll leave them for the actual topic.

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