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Bayo3 controversy

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Khan
Infinity_Divide
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1Bayo3 controversy Empty Bayo3 controversy Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:03 pm

Royta/Raeng

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So I got a few PMs asking about this, so I just wanted to iterate: personally I'm appalled by the whole situation since I've worked a lot with voice-actors in the past and already felt they were badly payed. That said, this is a forum about gameplay, so if you buy Bayonetta 3, pirate it, or w/e, I really don't care. Your money, your rules. Feel free to discuss mechanics and whatnot here, but I'd ask if we can keep the entire discussion about the controversy (if people are interested in talking about it) civil. That's all :)

Who here will buy B3?

[tiddies]

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2Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:47 pm

Birdman


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I don't see it as worth being a controversy.

Don't like an offer? Refuse and go elsewhere.
I've done it with the line of work I was in and I'll never go back to it.

I'm buying it. Her grievances are of no interest to me. Might sound mean but I don't know her (never even knew the name of Bayo's voice actor until now), never cared for Bayo's character as I skip cutscenes anyway. Only play for gameplay.

3Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:45 pm

GN1


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As much as I would like to play it, I'm not getting it due to being locked to the Switch's hardware, same as Astral Chain.

As for the controversary, I can only hope that VAs will be treated and paid better in the future and that this will lead to a positive change, assuming what she said is true it's really a shame. I can't judge without knowing the full story.

Having said that, I honestly think that all the people who boycott it or what not simply do this to feel better about themselves and their morals. Deciding whether to buy it or not has nothing to do with being a good or bad person (I actually saw people saying things along these lines).

4Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:34 pm

Infinity_Divide

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Not sure how this is controversial. She got an offer she didn’t like. Her telling fans to boycott the game is absurd. If we boycott the game and it sells like complete shit, that’s affecting dozens of people who worked on this for the last five years, but I guess what she wants is all that matters.

I didn’t see this outrage with Konami not getting David Hayter in MGS5(who wasn’t even offered the role btw, unlike hellena), but he didn’t cry about it on Twitter so there wasn’t an uproar.

I’m still buying this day one.

5Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:43 am

Birdman


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>I honestly think that all the people who boycott it or what not simply do this to feel better about themselves
Yep. It's been cringe reading their Twitter posts. I bet they'll all buy it anyway.

>I can only hope that VAs will be treated and paid better in the future
Is this general? We better quit all games then.
And quit like a million other things where people are low paid. Watch as no one does.

Would be interesting to know what she was paid in previous games, and what the new VA was offered.

>(I actually saw people saying things along these lines).
Argh! Scarred for life!




6Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:18 am

GN1


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It was indeed general.
Quit gaming and other stuff - Of course no one will, regardless of what their Twitter says. It's unrealistic. It's just easy to say this when a Twitter controversy arises.

Shortly after commenting I saw this: https://youtu.be/G1k7Cwr66O0?t=450

She did 16 hours in 4 session of 4 hours. Honestly, I thought all the sessions take longer than that.

I don't know anything about the VA industry so watching this makes me feel I was perhaps too quick to say they deserve better pay (I mean I don't even know how much are the commissions of unions and their agents) but 250USD per hour doesn't sound bad.

7Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:41 am

Birdman


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>She did 16 hours in 4 session of 4 hours
>but 250USD per hour doesn't sound bad
She has to be trolling.

I used to get less than $2000 every two weeks for taking care mental people which was exhausting and dangerous. Like 50 to 60 hours.

Yeah I might grab two copies now.

8Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 7:09 am

Khan

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I'll buy it and check it out on Yuzu. Don't have a switch personally.

Don't really care about the VA thing, more wondering why the game looks like a Warriors title but with only three mooks on screen at a time.

9Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:39 am

Royta/Raeng

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Let me preface by saying that the whole "comparing to Jesus" thing and asking to boycott the game is super wack imo. I do understand her plight though and the pain she exhibits is one I've lived and seen so much in the creative industry. Where everybody just thinks you should shut up and be grateful you earn so much per hour while the truth is way less happy.

I think a lot of people don't really understand how the job works and judge it wrongly based on assumption. Comparing it to working with a full time job isn't how it works. I've worked with nearly a hundred VAs in the past and it's a very odd occupation in terms of working hours/shifts. You don't just wake up and go do a 9/5 and earn 400$ per hour.

On the surface it's one of the best paid jobs you can do that's low weight and effort. Obviously there's a ton of bad VAs but they generally get snuffed out fast (annoying to work with, lots of recording sessions needed for a good take (which means more work in the editing room), less control of voice). What you're left with is little work that's left for a ton of VAs all fighting for work.

Most VAs I worked with had maybe one or two recording sessions per month, sometimes each one lasting 4 hours in total. Sometimes they had less, one per month or quarter. That's what they had to live off of. And now you're thinking " damn, only working 1 day a month, that's great". That's not how that really works. Most are working day and night, sending out portfolios, fighting on social media for attention and it's pretty rough to find work. Calling clients. Doing intro meetings. Researching clients, calling them up "hey I saw you were working on this project, need a VA"? Others that don't do this are either broke or pay for an expensive agent which means they need to earn it all back. Most that I know work weekends on the side (cafe, restaurant, or some are stage actors/writers).

The 'golden egg' is often considered to find a 'character' that you become. Sean Shemmel famously became Goku and he never had to work a day in his life anymore. He'd always get the Goku role. Commercial featuring Goku? There's his voice. Toy that says Kamehameha? That's his voice, royalties here they come. It's the equivalent of being a famous writer or artist - your life is now paying for itself. Only very few reach this point and it's a part they try never to let go. The guy who did all the movie-commercial voices, Goku's voice, Mario's voice - they're set.

There's currently quite a controvery going on relating to this vanishing in favor of hiring Hollywood actors (and paying them by the millions) for more recognition (i.e. Mario by Chris Pratt). So voice-actors are already in quite the pickle regarding this. It isn't a field that's taken for granted and often thrown to the side. Games famously just were voiced by staff to save costs, and it's one of the reasons why MGS took off (actual professional voice actors were used). The job is taken a bit more seriously today, but not a lot and it's still the first thing to go.

Helena is, looking at her portfolio, not the most succesful freelance VA. She's had a few gigs and a lot of uncredited commercial work until she got a gig with Bayonetta. Regardless of the series, it's a pretty nice job. Voice-payment goes by royalty in general since you don't just record the voice, you pay for the right to use said voice. If I make a drawing for a company, you buy to use it for a website, but if you want to use it on TV you have to pay me royalties every time you air it - that's simply the law.

Bayonetta got quite a few re-releases, she got released in Smash, there's a film. Chances are she made a small living off of those royalties while doing some uncredited sidegigs on the side.

The offer made by Platinum/Nintendo was a flat 4000. No royalties. A total buyout. And this is before Taxes are applied (so about 2500 left at best). It's the type of payment you'd offer a rookie VA who is out of his depth and abuse his unknowingness of the industry. Why they did this is beyond me. They clearly had the budget, since they're paying every Youtube a flat 10.000$ for covering the game (insanity, now that's dumb imo). So it's either that they want to get rid of her but had contractual problems, or there's more going on (hard to work with, internal issues, hell could even be she was shagging Kamiya, who the fuck knows).

Looking at her, I do feel she was dumb. From the feelings in the video I feel like she thought Bayonetta 3 was going to be a big payday, and adjusted her spendings accordingly before seeing what was up. So I'm more in support of the whole VA's plight thing (being replaced by Hollywood, underpaid etc.) than her specifically. After this video she's dead in the water. She broke an NDA, did massive reputation damage - she's probably going to get sued into the ground and no agency will ever touch her again. It also had the opposite effect: Bayonetta 3 preorders skyrocketed after her video and it is sold out now in most shops.

Regarding "then just stop buying games": we're all typing this on machines made by child labor. Wearing shoes made by child labor, that were shipped by staff that die on the workfloor to get it to us. Half the food we eat is from exploited slaves. You can't take a stand against everything. But then don't shame people that finally at least take a minor stand once in their life for not doing it against everything. One time is better than never I'd say.

Personally it reminds me a lot of working in that one animation studio where we all slaved away for a meager salary while our managers made millions but "you should be grateful to work in the industry". Fuck everyone for telling me that back then. Ruined my fucking life for years.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

10Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:21 am

Birdman


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Really solid post. Very interesting.

>"comparing to Jesus" thing and asking to boycott the game is super wack imo
That part creeped me out a bit.

>Comparing it to working with a full time job isn't how it works
Though that was mainly to point out I also wasn't paid what I was worth, you make a great point that VA work can be very infrequent. And she did mention underpaid nurses so she's definitely making some kind of comparison.

From what you describe the job sounds miserable for a lot of people. Why do they get into it? Do they have any idea what's coming?

>That's what they had to live off of.
She said she feared being on the street. Really? Do you think it was really that bad?

>No royalties. A total buyout
So she keeps the royalties because she refused? Though I guess that doesn't mean much since they won't be using her voice in the future.

>why they did it
Good question.

Would be interesting to know how much the new girl is getting.

Is Kamiya also bound by this NDA thing? He claimed she's a liar but didn't provide any evidence.

>devices made by child labour
You mean the raw materials from mines? That still a thing?

>taking a stand
Ok sure but it's not very consistent especially when everyone goes for the stand that effects them the least. It strikes me as dishonest.

Did the franchise really make $450 million?

11Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:33 am

Royta/Raeng

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> she's from the bible
Should also note that I've yet to meet a VA that isn't a total creep or weirdo in some way. Like how every SFX/Audio guy I know has extreme aspergersyndrom, VA's are always these weird concpiracytheorists or whatnot, at least in my experience.

> weird hours
It's a job with a dream mostly. Just like being an artists, you hear a lot of success stories but very little 'failure' stories (because those aren't news). Having a trained voice is hard work and I think a lot just dive in, and eventually are in so deep and so invested that they feel it's a waste to back out. Just for an example, I worked 76 hours last week, yet only billed 2 hours, the rest was all just 'investment' i.e. meetings, meetups, socialmedia etc. You hope that it eventually pays itself back with big gigs, but that's always a risk. She probably thought Bayonetta (3) was going to be her big hit that saw all her hard work come together or some shit.
I tried VA work myself for a bit (voiced some internal communication animations at Toyota lol) and it's fun when it works out, but unless you put a lot of time in it you'll never get hired again.

> living on the street
I think she's twisting facts here. Bayonetta was never super succesful, so she probably included Smash Bros. in her calculations as a brand (since Bayonetta is in there). I think she's trying to get the 'easy life' (voice a single character, never work a day in your life) and is now salty she lost out on that. She might also be type-cast (people don't hire her, since she sounds too much like Bayonetta), but I don't think so.

> royalties
More meant for this installement. You get paid per 'game' . So with Bayonetta 1, she probably made the most as with each re-release she probably got a (very small) cut of each copy sold since she was part of the royalties. For Bayonetta 3 it would mean she'd get 4000,-, and that's it. If the game got 20 re-releases, they used her voice clips from there in Smash, it wouldn't matter, she wouldn't see a dime.

> how much the new VA gets
The same, they're part of the same union so they use the same contracts. They might've even paid her less, but a gig's a gig I think and maybe she was hurting for cash, who knows.

> Kamiya NDA
He's CEO(?) of PlatinumGames. There's no doubt lawyers involved and his contract no doubt also has an NDA included in it (most do). They're probably already furious that he tweeted about it.

> child labour
Most phones are made in sweat-shops in China. You can bet your ass that's not a nice place to work.

> strikes me as dishonest
I can get that. I'm more against the notion that people are afraid to take a stand about anything since they then feel they're immediately obligated to take a stand against everything constantly.

Like for me, I take a 'stand' here since it's in my line of work and I know people like this, but I'm also still a bit iffy about it since she's such a creep and you just know more was going on behind the scenes. Experience has taught me the truth is usually found in the middle in these cases.

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12Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:23 am

Memes of Monsoon

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Internet is full of angry,mentally defective people who make a mountain of a molehill. This controversy is so stupid. No crime or any illegal activity has been done yet by the outrage you would expect some heinous crime has been committed. A VA didn't reprise her role because she was offended by the money offered to her so she tells everyone to boycott the game. what ? this has to be one of the dumbest things i have ever witnessed. VA's change all the time.

I didn't have a good opinion of people who play video games to begin with but this incident confirms it. As a fan I only hope that Hellena's Career doesn't suffer because of this childish stunt.

13Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:49 pm

Gregorinho

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https://twitter.com/jasonschreier/status/1582444590602522624?s=20&t=Z_bE1nMoZmjC1zMzlOdnyw

Apologies if we've got any rules against linking to Twitter or anything, but this is wild.

To my knowledge, Schreier is a very reputable reporter on gaming news. Seen a few other sources corroborating his info, too.

Taylor was offered at least $15k (Schreier has apparently seen written evidence of this himself) and several sources (Bloomberg, VGC) are reporting she asked for six-figures. Taylor has since responded and called these new claims lies.

It's really, really not looking good for her, and she's possibly done irreputable damage towards the chances of voice actors actually acheiving better pay in the industry. Wow.

I guess it is still he-said-she-said right now, but the writing looks like it's on the wall here.

14Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:31 pm

Royta/Raeng

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As noted, most VA's I know are pretty 'special', but I'm a bit surprised by *this* twist if it's true. I mean, even if she was right, this move was 100% carreer suicide. She had nothing to gain except paypack for the bad offer. If she lied about the money and just wanted petty vengeance ... ehh. No clue why the fuck she'd do that.

I doubt P* would've come out of the woodworks saying "yeah guys we totally fucked that up, soz" . So not surprised that this 'mystery document' showed up.

> jason
I can't see his tweets, think he has me blocked since I think DOAX is goated.

> wanted six figures
The only thing that makes me think that is correct (docs can be so easily faked I can make one now if you want), is that she was so delusional about Bayonetta's succes as a franchise. She really sounded like she was the voice-actor for Goku or Mario or something. Which was really weird.

I mostly feel bad for VAs. Had a call yesterday with a few since I'm looking for a few for an animation right now and it was the topic of the hour ofc. They were mostly worried about what you noted Greg, i.e. "this might mean we'll never see more pay, instead of at one point".

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15Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:38 pm

Birdman


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Knew there was more to it.

Read the documents are real but I can't verify that.

I also read that she supports psycho grifter preacher Joel Osteen. If that's true it adds up. She threatened people with God's wrath and was after more money. Just like Osteen.

16Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:08 am

GodModeGOD

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>Gokek's voice
Shame that little BITCH didn't get canceled by his fellows. Would have have been funny seeing him go tits up.

17Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Wed Oct 19, 2022 9:25 pm

Birdman


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Seeing a lot of damage control from the moral people.

"B-b-but Kamiya was mean!"

Might unfollow some people who won't shut up about it.

Or maybe just get off Twitter. It's a daily dumpster fire of shitty retweets, whining about personal problems, attention seeking.

When I first got on Twitter I added people I subscribe to on YouTube and thought it would be non-stop gaming fun. Instead one guy asks for money constantly and posts depression stuff, another makes Bayo2 posts then cries and does sad posts when people don't agree Bayo1 was superior, the DMC guys are super touchy. Really thin skinned. SO. MANY. CAT. VIDEOS.

I did come to understand that Twitter is like this, a lot of personal stuff. Only reason I really started one is because my laptop was down and I couldn't upload my Okami recordings easily outside of through my phone.

Twitter seems decent for getting mechanics content out because how one of yous could just like or share then all these others on your lists could see it. I've found cool stuff from yours too. But I spend more time scrolling past bullshit trying to find stuff I like

But overall the site is shit and worse than GameFaqs.

18Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:52 pm

Hyperfist/Malcar

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I don't understand why people have a problem with how Kamiya approached the situation. He basically said "She's lying" and that's it (which was apparently true).

19Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Thu Oct 20, 2022 6:48 am

Memes of Monsoon

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The irony is that kamiya was willing to give her another chance so he got dragged through the mud for being the bigger person. Poor guy I don't blame him for acting the way he does on twitter.

20Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Thu Oct 20, 2022 11:16 am

Royta/Raeng

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One thing I find very weird is how everyone always immediately accepts everything as truth.
Hellena says x: omfg it's true, pay respect to Hellena
Platinum says y: omfg it's true, apologize to Kamiya

Like did you really expect a milliondollar company to say "nawh we totally underpaid her".

That said: best marketing ever. Sales are at a record high and the series is trending like never before.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

21Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:59 pm

GodModeGOD

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I just hope the new designs (especially for demons) aren't dogshit.

22Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:02 pm

Birdman


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>One thing I find very weird is how everyone always immediately accepts everything as truth.
Moral Twitter at its finest.
All the gaming Youtubers were doing it too.

Sadly even some action vets I was followed started their shit.

Looks like the whole thing is forgotten now.

> Sales are at a record high and the series is trending like never before.

23Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:26 am

Birdman


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Can't wait until tomorrow.

Been watching every review.

Looks like she has to stop and dance when a demon is summoned to keep it going. Reminds of the loss of mobility when you summon in Chaos Legion. Not sure I like this summoning thing but we'll see.

Also, when signing I accidentally typed my name as Boardman. No idea how that happened.

24Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:06 pm

GodModeGOD

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Watched the final boss. Hate the design. Story angle fits the usual bullshit with the series. New character is shit. Bayo and Luka look fine (ignoring something else about the latter that I'm missing context for). Gameplay has turned into a weird mess in appearance. Not impressed, frankly. Even for one that can enjoy kaiju and such, this ain't it. Just went too far with something I found questionable in Bayo 2 to begin with. Hard to speak on how it actually plays, mind you. I've got nearly no interest at this juncture.

25Bayo3 controversy Empty Re: Bayo3 controversy Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:14 pm

Birdman


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The instant 'assist' summons look decent.

But the actual summoning looks like DDR. Seems Bayo can stop dancing and move for a short time, while the demon is attacking, but will vanish if she doesn't dance again. Saw her do one of the torture attacks from a demon launch. Hope that's not all there is and that you HAVE to summon to hurt big stuff.

Will have it in an hour or so.

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