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STGs/Shmups

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Gregorinho
Tyr
HotPocketHPE
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1STGs/Shmups Empty STGs/Shmups Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:17 am

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
C-Rank

There are a ton of these so perhaps a general thread is best, if it should be split up feel free to do whatever with this one.

Finally got Touhou 8 1cc on Normal, my first 1cc so far. The game really showers you with resources (at least on Normal) so if you can avoid throwing on the first 5 stages you can basically bomb through the last one. Still took me a bit of practice, especially to get used to the bullet hell style. Bosses have some really cool patterns, the stage 5 boss in particular is themed around hypnotism so the bullets phase in and out of the screen in interesting ways. A couple stinker patterns here and there but overall pretty awesome.

Currently thinking about going for Mushihimesama Original 1cc, probably will be a step up in difficulty. The aesthetic is really unique, all the enemies are bugs or plants and the game generally has a nature-fantasy theme to it. The Steam port is also quite good: accurate to the arcade, training mode with stage/boss select, leaderboards with viewable replays, per-stage/boss music selection, a ton of extra modes. Normal has three difficulties: Original, which plays like an old-school shmup with few but fast bullets, Maniac, which is more like CAVE's usual bullet hell, and Ultra, which is for those seeking agony and pain. There are some weird techniques for scoring and higher damage, but so far I've just been using the standard three buttons.

Anyone else been playing any good STGs/shmups?

2STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:01 am

Tyr

Tyr
D-Rank

As you have already mentioned, in Mushi Normal Original, the bullets are really fast. It takes some time (hours) to get used to it. Maniac mode could be easier for you if you ignore the (complex) scoring for now.

I've played Touhou for a grand total of 2 hours, a long time ago. I stopped because you had to press two buttons at once all the time (slow+shot if I remember correctly) and my hand didn't like it. But it looked interesting.

I'm not playing anything in the genre right now. I've tried Ginga Force when it came out but I abandoned it very quickly.

3STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:45 am

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
C-Rank

Got the Mushi Original 1cc today, feels good. My tapdodging skill went way up with this game, since supershot (glitch for higher damage) moves you at full speed the whole time. Great game, I really like stage 3 and how it has you manage a constant stream of popcorn enemies with your options. By the end of my runs, the fast bullets of Original mode weren't even registering in my mind as anything unusual. Might do Maniac in the future since the Steam port has worked very well so far.

4STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:55 am

Tyr

Tyr
D-Rank

Congrats ! If you're still interested in the Original mode, you can try to No Miss No Bomb. I did try it in the past, with limited success.

It's a very pleasant game overall, with good audiovisuals.

5STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:32 pm

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
C-Rank

Been playing the phenomenal and unique Hellsinker over the past few months, just wanted to wax poetic about it for a bit.

Although my experience with shmups is limited compared to the breath of the genre, I would say that most shmups I've played are extremely focused on fundamentals. Positioning, movement, and timing are the name of the game, with different enemy formations and bullet patterns emphasizing various nuances of these fundamentals. There is great depth in this approach, without a doubt, and it has led to a huge number of great games.

Hellsinker is different. Paraphrasing this helpful guide:
In most shmups you have a few ways to deal with threats, dodging being the foremost strategy.

In Hellsinker you can:
- Dodge the bullets
- Kill the enemy before it fires
- Delete the bullets with a bullet-canceling attack or environmental effect
- Attack the (destructible) bullets
- "Seal" the enemy by standing next to it, preventing it from firing
- Use invincibility to pass through the bullets
- Use your Suppression Radius to slowly delete the bullets
- Prevent the enemy from spawning in the stage
- Skip the stage in which the enemy appears

The essence of this game is learning how and when to use these various techniques to overcome the highly chaotic and unorthodox bullet/enemy patterns thrown at you. It really reminds me of the action game mindset: using your tools and the game's mechanics in smart ways to overcome great challenges.

Each of the 7(!!!) unique characters has 5 or more attacks that function completely differently from each other. The character I'm playing, Fossil Maiden, has a main shot, melee lance, bullet-canceling laser, relocatable auto-turret, and 2 types of bombs.

Even within these attacks, there are nuances. The main shot and lance can be aimed in any one of the 8 directions independently from your movement, the lance's front and back side have different effects, and the auto-turret does more damage when you are close. And this is only one character!

Many of these attacks interact with the Sol and Luna meters by either draining them, affecting the recharge rate, or powering up based on how high the meters are. Certain enemies drop items that refills one of these meters, which greatly influences your attack and resource-management strategies.

Touching an enemy won't instantly kill you, instead it will violently bounce you away from them. This makes aggressive, close range play viable in many circumstances, but can lead to a quick death in others. Of course, it's up to the player to figure out which description applies to a given situation.

Bosses have tons of destructible parts. Which parts you destroy, what order you do it in, and how long you take to destroy them all lead to completely different attack patterns, and in some cases will lead to rewards that affect future stages.

I haven't even mentioned the Terra/Shrine of Farewell system, which can play greatly into survival strategy across stages. Nor have I mentioned scoring, both because there are 3 independent scoring systems with their own strategies to optimize, and because I don't know shit about it. To quote the WR holder for Spirit scoring:
"i have 0 idea how this game work lol" -twilightex

The game's from 2007, so it will probably run on craptops and the like. The base price is also $10 on Steam with the occasional sale, which is an amazing steal. Anyone who is interested should really, really check this game out.

6STGs/Shmups Empty no thunder without a lightening Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:42 pm

Guest


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Yeah, the shmp. Not a lot to gush on my part.

Got Thunder Force AC on the Switch sale. It's fun, though I realize as with any shooter I need gravity to go bonkers about a game. Being able to be on any point of the screen most of the time, is something I struggle with. Too much range, yet you couldn't call it freedom. Let it be known on the 'net: I am an action-lover, and not a nerdy obsessive. Too much intricacy is sure to kill my stiffy for about anything.

And Chuka Taisen aka Monkey King: Master of the Clouds. That's one though cookie. Yet it's neat.

7STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:42 pm

Tyr

Tyr
D-Rank

I'm glad you're enjoying Hellsinker. I have it. I played it for 30 seconds, and then proceeded to never touch it again. Not that it made a bad impression, but rather, it seemed to be a lot of work.

It has the reputation to be a very specific title, and I have much left to enjoy in the classic department.

I am currently playing the famous Radiant Silvergun. It is obviously very methodical. Surprisingly, there are very nice bullet patterns. The whole is carried by a sublime soundtrack and a quite good story (in Saturn mode).

It is a very praised game, yet unplayed. You could count on two hands the number of westerners who reached the 10 million points mark (the WR is 27.5 millions) in arcade mode. The Saturn mode (harder) is completely neglected.

8STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:03 pm

Gregorinho

Gregorinho
A-Rank

I'm sure I'll get round to trying out some STGs eventually. Hellsinker sounds cool, I read a little bit of the guide posted above (seems very technical). May pick it up when I'm back home. Feel free to keep posting recommendations guys, always find them interesting to look in to!

9STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:07 pm

zaa / Aaro

zaa / Aaro
D-Rank

Tyr wrote:I'm glad you're enjoying Hellsinker. I have it. I played it for 30 seconds, and then proceeded to never touch it again. Not that it made a bad impression, but rather, it seemed to be a lot of work.

It has the reputation to be a very specific title, and I have much left to enjoy in the classic department.

I am currently playing the famous Radiant Silvergun. It is obviously very methodical. Surprisingly, there are very nice bullet patterns. The whole is carried by a sublime soundtrack and a quite good story (in Saturn mode).

It is a very praised game, yet unplayed. You could count on two hands the number of westerners who reached the 10 million points mark (the WR is 27.5 millions) in arcade mode. The Saturn mode (harder) is completely neglected.

A french player has the WR for saturn mode, still some people on it. Playing through it on veryhard setting is a nice challenge run I've seen some people do. Unlike most shmups the difficulty switch affects the patterns a lot in Silvergun so it's worth seeing. Saturn always seemed like the 'true' mode that the director intended. It has more content like boss fights and the story bits actually fit together. But the extended hour+ long game would fit poorly in the arcade setting.

I'd say Radiant Silvergun is a very specific title as well, it's certainly not for everyone. There is nothing with a remotely similar combination of weapons system and scoring. I'd say the closest things to it I've played are ZeroRanger, Strania and Hellsinker (weapons usage).

Playing through HellSinker back in 2009 with no background knowledge and digging into the game was one of the most fun experiences I had discovering a new game. The stages are full of surprises and mastering the gameplay systems is very rewarding like an action game. I will say it's less complicated than it looks as you don't need to worry about most of the gauges on the UI. Some of the ships have extremely simple gameplay (shoot forward and bomb) so that's not a limitation. It can be simple if you want it to be.
These 3 games are kind of fusions between action games and shmups in a very good way that should be explored more (they don't sacrifice what makes a shmup good at the core, solid level/pattern design etc.).

For STG adjacent games on PC Monolith is pretty cool, perhaps the only roguelike game I really enjoy. It plays well even if you avoid all upgrades and bosses etc. are well designed. I'm used to that type of game having more sloppy core gameplay than the genre they add roguelike/random elements to. For twin stick shooters Assault Android Cactus+ is super impressive to me, scoring is fun enough to compete with some classic STGs and great challenge (don't let the character designs mislead you).

If you have a PS4/5, M2:s ShotTriggers series of shmup ports is a reason a lot of people bought the console. If you're interested in shmups I think Ketsui and Battle Garegga are must try/buy games.
Very different games from eachother but super polished at the core, you'll have a hard time finding anybode that disputes their quality. I remember really getting into the genre after trying games like ESP Ra.De. , Darius Gaiden and Armed Police Batrider and still think super highly of those. There's a lot of variety within the genre so it's worth trying a lot of things to see what you like.

https://www.youtube.com/zaarock

10STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:16 pm

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
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As someone who hasn't really touched this genre outside of GalGun(? the one with the Girl on the broom, Gunbird?), what would be a good one? Preferably one on PS2/XboxClassic or GC (all EU ofc.) SNES or DC is also possible btw.

https://stinger.actieforum.com

11STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:50 pm

hedfone

hedfone
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Was one of the original users

I am in the same boat. Never played a shmup really. I was going to start with raiden games on ps2 with the girlfriend with like infinite lives or something. Those games looked cool.

Just got Mushihimesama and Deathsmiles on steam. People say Mushi is great, and I love the look of Deathsmiles. You can't go wrong with cave.

12STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:15 pm

Tyr

Tyr
D-Rank

As zaa / Aaro said, it is good to try many titles. I've tried hundreds of games, but really played maybe fifty. The easiest way to do this is to install MAME and download all the roms that go with it.

A pretty STG with good music and sound effects is a good way to start I think. So most games from Cave fit the bill. From Cave games, we have to reject those too hard for a first-timer (Ketsui for instance) and those too weird (DDP DFK comes to mind).
After you're done with your first Cave game, you will certainly have sharpened your reflexes (or rather your bullet-related reflexes).
Mushi and Deathsmiles are good for a start I think (and of course, even much later they're still good).

My personal recommendation for a first game is going to be a bit odd : I would choose the beginner mode of Gradius III Arcade. I believe it will give better fundamentals than a Cave game (it asks for good reflexes but doesn't forgive useless movement and lack of method, unlike a Cave game for a mere 1cc). But Gradius in general is unfashionable and lacks the power of attraction of Cave. It is also not as pretty.
I've tackled the Gradius games after the Cave games, and I'd place them among my favorites.


Raeng, it sounds like Gunbird indeed. For PS2/Xbox/GC, I can't think of many STGs, Gradius V aside. You will find many ports of older games though (some good, some bad).
On Dreamcast, I can think of Border Down and Under Defeat (actually I can think of a few more, but those are too weird).
There are many STGs on SNES but I haven't played any of them.
I personally wouldn't buy anything before having tried the game with emulation, as it can get very expensive.

If you're looking for a game with a specific universe (are you more into spaceships, world war II planes, fantasy, robots,...) you can ask me, and I'll try to find the fitting ones.



And also remember : it's all about the score in this genre. When you insert another credit, your score goes back to zero. So you must avoid it, except for practice purposes.

13STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:42 pm

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
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Made it to stage 7 of 8 in Hellsinker. This game is so fucking good, it's intoxicating.

I love the patterns, they feel so bizarre but not unmanageable. Very much a "play smart not hard" thing, at least for basic survival.

The way your Suppression Radius, which slows nearby bullets, interacts with how you dodge is really interesting too. Round bullets get deleted over time, but "pointy" bullet types don't, so for patterns with a lot of pointy bullets, having Suppression Radius on can clump everything up and screw you over. Tools with situational utility, it's almost like there is actual game design here or something!

As Zaarock mentioned (and as a counterbalance to my original post) you don't need to engage with all the complexities to play the game. The character Minogame can chain 2 attacks with invincibility, which is good for survival while you get a grip on what's happening.

I feel like this is a better "action game" than what comes out these days. Like Infinity_Divide said in another thread, I'm really getting annoyed at i-frame dodges being used as replacements for actual mechanics.

14STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:32 pm

Infinity_Divide

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Went to my mom’s for a bit the other day and I remembered I had some of these games on the 360, so I grabbed them. I also got Hellsinker on Steam(it doesn’t seem like something a noob like myself should play but I got it anyway). Gonna mess around with them in the next few days hopefully. I had a friend who was really into these games but I never gave them much of a chance.

>iframe dodges being used as a replacement for actual mechanics
It’s quite annoying to me. Games with dodges that don’t have iframes are now seen as “clunky”(a word I already can’t stand) as if the point of a dodge or dash was always meant to make you invincible. I blame Bayonetta and Arkham for this phenomenon, as well as Souls.

15STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:27 pm

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
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>Hellsinker for noobs
You would be surprised! Keep in mind I'm very much an entry-level shmupper, with only a few 1ccs under my belt. The thing about Hellsinker is that the dodging is actually pretty easy compared to many shmups. It's a lot more about using your tools smartly and analyzing how to approach patterns. This guide was super helpful to me. It's also similar enough to action games that it also might be a good bridge between them.

16STGs/Shmups Empty Re: STGs/Shmups Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:49 am

HotPocketHPE

HotPocketHPE
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Got the Hellsinker 1cc with Fossil Maiden! Amazing game, one of the best I've ever played. Everything just overflows with creativity! Immense depth too, it's taken me about 35 hours to get the 1cc and there's 2 extra stages and 6 completely different characters that I haven't even touched yet.

If the game looks interesting to you, I highly recommend to stop watching my video, as it's fun to go in blind and figure things out. It's $6 on Steam until August 10th, and should run on basically anything.

17STGs/Shmups Empty you needn't more options Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:01 pm

Guest


Guest

I 'm sinking more into it. I think I never played shooters more than now, when I find current 3D based action so unappealing.

Getting titles with Hamster ACA, it's fun to explore. Konami XEXEX (IT'S NOT GRADIUS, IT'S NOT R-TYPE WHATIZZIT), X-Multiply, Salamander.

I used to consider Gradius with some disdain, mainly becuse it's the stereotype of a shooting star game. Even yo moma knows the shape of the VV. But it's changing. Now, I getting real close to it. Seeing the fun parts. Playing some versions of the original (PC-E and NES), soon the arcade. Gradius III for SNES is annoying for the slowdowns, but fun enough to play. Gradius III Arc is brutal, yet fascinating from Stage 1 on. Gradius ReBirth on WiiWare is neat in it's rememberance of other titles. Most funny is the voice commanding to Shoot it in the Mouth/Head/Core/Heart/Brain and the variants. Terrific music all around. Laser my favorite weapon. Moai heads are so sweet. I seem to learn now Gradius is a sterotype for a reason. Figure that.

Part of my new orientation is to play with only 1 option, to avoid high rank. It's suits me fine enough to stay motivated. Getting 4 multibiles and facing onslaught is not subtle shooting anymore.

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