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Devil's Third

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1 Devil's Third on Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:15 am

For reference:




I haven't played it but I looked at it for a while now have some thoughts here:

Level design seems to be an issue in the campaign,  as it's way too linear and doesn't effectively allow for use of the movement options and interplay between guns, movement and melee which is something the multiplayer alleviates due to open map design. It seems too binary and encounters are either cover shooting or melee, if the levels where more open and allowed for multiple approaches via smart use of elevation navigation to flank foes then you could make melee/guns as viable as you want. It has so much more going on that basic cover shooting and melee, the interplay is what it was founded on and what the multiplayer achieves.

Bosses I'm not sure if they are bullshit poorly designed or actually good and the player just sucks, maybe mix of both. I've seen they seem unclear with their tells and openings and may get armor/iframes and have some really fast atacks and can cancel out of moves, I'm not sure in these things just notes. I do like grundla saha and kumano bosses the most(designs, themes and move sets), don't know if the angry black dood is a cheap boss but kumano seems the most fair straight away his moves make the most sense to me.

Enemy types seem lacking. Mostly soldiers with guns and/or knives, ninja, invisible ladies and big black bullet sponges that seem pretty redundant. Zombies are boring damage sponges too.

Lack of offline multiplayer functions like a wave mode against ai that would reuse multiplayer maps for offline use, that way one could really use the map to elevate the core gameplay.

It's clearly a rushed game but I'm glad it's out, it needs to find a balance between its mechanics as the story mode seems all to eager to be the next cod/army of two.

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2 Re: Devil's Third on Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:52 pm

The bosses are just really agressive, but you can nail them down hard. They are Itagaki style bosses but without him holding back. The mission 3 boss Saha is especially hard though.

The game itself really lacks a desire to use its mechanics. The gameplay itself really leans for a Vanquish style mixture of close combat and shooting, yet the enemies are all built around shooting. Going in with a katana is begging for death. Also Score-mode is no longer available, you can play it but it doesn't work as the leaderboards were taken offline sadly. Still the game holds a special place in my heart. It was the game that prompted me to start Stinger Magazine as a whole because I felt the game didn't get enough love.

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3 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:54 am

So no commentary for the lp? I always enjoy your commentary Roy.

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4 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:20 am

Birdman


Moderator
I totally get what you're saying about going in with the katana. I kept trying to slide and get up close but got destroyed once the enemies had guns.

Are there any abilities later that give you more options for scenarios like this?

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5 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:08 am

Yeah I got a bit tired of recording commentary at that time and just wanted to get the run out haha. I just want to share the content, but I don't always feel like sitting down and talking to a screen for an hour ;p

That....and my recording of chpt2 got corrupted. At which point I thought fuck it. Sorry man! But glad to hear you like them : ) What do you like more? Live commentary or just post-commentary?

@birdman, there are no new abilities except Devil Trigger which unlocks in chapter 2 I believe. It's nothing too special, just ups damage and increases your defense a bit. Melee should only be used when needed in this game, it isn't the focus.

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6 Re: Devil's Third on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:53 am

I like both types of commentary, the post commentary adds a different perspective, seems best for analytical talk, since one can focus on just commentating while they break down the footage, more distant I guess. The live commentary may offer more moment to moment relevance and humour, more spontaneous and stream of consciousness I think is what I mean. Sorry I'm not very good at typing my thoughts.

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7 Re: Devil's Third on Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:13 am

Birdman


Moderator
Just beat the third boss I think? Huge black guy with a red cap using some kind of short blades.

I can't believe how fast you can die in this game, not just from bosses but regular guys too. Anyway this boss was kicking my ass but I got used to his attacks after about 10 or so deaths. It's just hard to tell when he's going to do something and he has quite a few attacks. Blocking him for more than a few hits will lose your weapon and I think some of these attacks are unblockable but that may have just been my timing. Once he stunlocks you it's over. That damn knife throw combo is nasty and his front kick causes a huge stun. It seems to be a bad idea to do a combo on him.

I found an interesting tech, may already be known but once I confirmed it I died on purpose just to test if I could defeat him only using it. What you want to do is deliver a single light attack. I was using the katana so I don't know if this works with out weapons, but after that light attack, wait a sec for him to recover from the stun, and do another single slash. Repeat until dead.

You'll actually be interrupted what he's about to do. Sometimes, depending on your timing you see him try to start something, but you can slash as soon as you see him return to his neutral position. It might work with two slashes because when you get a free shot you can do a full 3 hit with the katana before he retaliates.

As far as I've tested, this is a no damage strat. Unless something changes him on harder modes, this should work there too. I guess it would have worked on that cowboy looking guy too.

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8 Re: Devil's Third on Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:15 am

Birdman


Moderator
Fuck this Jane Doe BITCH!

Insta-kill invincible grab, invincible normal grab, invincible side kick, dodges most of the time.

Got used to her shit and just hit a few times then dodged because those grabs or side kick are hard to see. Way harder than the black guy because the same strat won't work due to her dodging.

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9 Re: Devil's Third on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:08 am

And can you imagine that you're probably playing on Easy or Normal (I think the default is Easy in the JPN release). You can check it via the options menu. Hardcore ups the damage even more (Yeah...).

The game is all about knowing when to use what type of weapon and how the melee combat works. What you noted are the pause combos I believe. You can also do that with block-canceling, it is the best with the heavier weapons like the Hammer and Pipe, it will absolutely wreck most enemies. The Cowboy boss can be stunned pretty easily too, though he's easiest to just nuke with weapons and headshots.

> Jane Doe
She can be tricky. Maybe this helps: https://youtu.be/PF-M-CfgMbo?t=19m46s
You really have to punish her moves with your gun instead of your melee weapons, she'll wreck you in close quarters - especially on Hardcore Mode. She's one of the harder bosses though. The next few bosses are quite easy (one can be killed before his HP bar even appears if you're smart), the last two are probably the best in the game I feel.

It's weird, everytime I hear talk of the game I want to play it again. Might pop it in tonight now that I have a pro-controller.

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10 Re: Devil's Third on Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:31 am

Birdman


Moderator
So only guns can cause that extended knockdown start? When I tried shooting her and saw how little damage it did, I instantly disregarded them. It just seemed like the game was trying to say they weren't effective. Shit.

Still close quarters does more damage if you can dodge her nonsense. I found hitting a few times and not getting greedy worked well.

I don't understand why they'd up the damage more. You die near instantly as it is.

I'm going to finish this game but I know I'll never touch it again. It has some great ideas though. I'm forced to play a cover shooter and it's really enjoyable. If only they made another way to safetly approach enemies. The only time I slide is to get to cover.





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11 Re: Devil's Third on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:06 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I don't think I can do this anymore.

I'm on chapter 8 I think. Honestly I have no idea. I don't care for the story at all, and watch something on my laptop during cut-scenes. I don't even know why I'm shooting people and weird monsters lol.

I'm at some place where invisible enemies have been introduced, then a part where I have to fight like 4 or 5 of those large, black armored guys with either gatling guns, chainsaws or axes. They are bullet sponges and I actually almost ran out of ammo before I died to some random shot before I got to cover. I guess I'm at the point in all shooters where they just throw small armies at you and the tougher ones become normal. I'm not sure I'm going to win this fight and when I die it's back to the start of that area to fight all the grunts again.

I'm just forcing myself to play now. It's so boring and the gameplay is just basic cover shooting. I don't know if melee works on those big guys but the game has done such a great job of discouraging me from leaving cover that I don't even consider it or even care at this point.

It's a shame because I can see a few cool elements. I also think Ivan is one of the best character designs I've seen. I would love to see him in another game.

I'm seriously weighing up whether to continue or send it back to the box in the closet for all time and start Star Fox Zero.

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12 Re: Devil's Third on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:53 pm

> Mission
You still have a ways to go. The invisible enemies are in the snow right? The part you're talking about is generally considered to be the hardest part of the game - easily. There are a few large fights later in the game, but not too much and not too long. And never with 4 ExoSuits.
You really need to balance your agressive and offensive playstyle there. But yeah, it ain't easy. Don't forget to use Devil Trigger at times, it increases health-regen, has i.frames on activation and gives a free full heal on activation.

> melee
You can dodge > punish them with melee weapons, deals a ton of damage. Throwing a weapon at them does monsterous damage too. Don't use jumping attacks.

> Ivan
Agreed, really well designed. Also liked the boss-designs and the whole Japanese mission.

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13 Re: Devil's Third on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:05 pm

Birdman


Moderator
Yeah it's a snowy part. Right now I'm up against 3 at one time, but there was one before that with an axe.

I found the melee using ones are fine to use melee against so long as I can isolate them from the guys with gatling guns. Might try again tomorrow but no motivation to touch it again at the moment.

Never thought of throwing my weapon, because I forgot it was even a thing. Only ever did that once in the tutorial then forgot about it. The game doesn't seem designed for anything other than cover shooting. Totally forgot the DT existed.

The slide is cool and being able to hold grenades before throwing them is useful. I don't play many shooting games so I don't know if this is a common mechanic. The only other game I remember (from what I've played) that has this is Dark Void.

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14 Re: Devil's Third on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:17 pm

"Cooking" grenades is in most shooters these days yeah.

That fight is all about peaking your head out and knowing who spawns when. Don't be afraid to backtrack and kite the heavies around. They have a ton of HP but there is a rocket launcher near the start I believe so you can use that.

The game is mostly based around shooting, melee is a fun addition though. If you're going for score it's basically melee-only which requires some work arounds at times but it is possible. It works best if you use the method when it is called for. If you're surrounded by gunners and you rush in with a katana, expect to die unless you know what you're doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy2fuFtAO_8&list=PLKz6wVNSUw6GQhmcXZD6_W0crKK-UWyTE&index=7

(around 17:00)

There's two more missions after this. The first is, not going to lie, pretty hard and bad. The last one is probably the best mission. Really cool bosses.

Honestly I hope the game gets revived some day, maybe a remaster or whatever. Would be pretty cool.

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15 Re: Devil's Third on Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:00 pm

Birdman


Moderator
I did not know his gun had a grenade launcher built in. There are ENDLESS situations where that would have been extremely useful.

Overall, your gameplay looks similar to mine, though mine is worse which I would say is more due to not knowing what's around the next corner. At this point I know where all the enemies in that area are and after watching this I think I could beat this part now. I think I died more here because every time I died I got mad and tried to rush back to that point where the robo-suit guys come out. I see the melee strat there so I'll that too. Thanks.

I wish they added some kind of mechanics to the slide or something to make dodging bullets possible like what Vanquish has but I can't think of anything other than adding slow-mo which would end up making them too similar.

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16 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:23 am

Birdman


Moderator
Done. Not sure what I really want to play next. I'm thinking Star Fox Zero or Guard but I think I'm sick of the gamepad and Star Fox is known for it's extreme motion controls. I've only played it a little in the past and it was annoying but I felt with practice and effort you can master them and play perfectly.

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17 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:58 am

"Done" as in in "I've beaten it" or as in "I'm done with it".

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18 Re: Devil's Third on Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:58 am

Birdman


Moderator
Yeah, I've beaten it. The last two bosses were decent particularly the invisible woman, but neither seemed as troublesome as Jane.

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19 Re: Devil's Third on Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:56 am

I think an issue is level design. Most stages are very linear hallways with not much room to flank and little to no elevation to use, only a few areas make use of the wallrun mechanic. If levels where more open, had areas to reliably flank enemies from multiple sides and elevations to use hit n run tactics and bait and force enemies into melee more safely.

As well as the usual issue with modern shooters is the abundance of high damage, accurate hit-scan enemies, meaning you have little to no way if reliably avoiding damage, hence regenerating health being the most common health model to balance this issue(but not truly solve it, just mitigate to a variable degree). Reduce enemy gun accuracy(have them fire in a specific arc, think jj in re4) and damage, also have them fire less frequently(as in less firing at once and take breaks between volleys to let you move with some safety) would help. Hitscan with no moderation is pretty much always worse on higher modes, just forces players to spend even more time shooting from cover, more shooters can benefit from Vanquish’s subtle design choices instead of going the usual full retard hit-scan.

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20 Re: Devil's Third on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:54 am

I think one thing people need to realize when playing is that it isn't a Ninja Gaiden game, melee is only a close combat resort. You don't go running into a fire fight with a knife.

That said, those notes you made on the fire-range and accuracy would've improved the game a ton.

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21 Re: Devil's Third on Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:10 am

Birdman


Moderator
Devil's Third kinda reminds me of Wet. And before you kill me, first, Wet isn't bad, and second, I'm not saying they play anything the same. Rather, some of the stuff you can do and the way combat plays out reminds me of it.

In Wet, you can go into slowmo pretty much whenever and chain actions. The slowmo is the only way to not get shot to shit. Even though you have a sword, if you tried to use it without slowmo the enemies will destroy you. The majority of enemies have guns in Wet and there's no cover system. The ability to slow down everything is the only defense you have really.

I actually really want to play Wet again. It had an interesting system that I feel if they could improve it, would be a great game. As it is, it's decent.

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22 Re: Devil's Third on Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:11 pm

I always liked WET, got a copy of it for my birthday. Pretty cool action pieces, nice music and fun score-system. Sure it wasn't amazing by any means, but had a lot of fun while playing it.

I feel Devil's Third gains a lot more when playing on Score Attack though, embraces its more arcade nature.

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