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I miss games having discovery in their mechanics

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Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
These days everything seems to be planned out, even moreso in fighting games. Recent annoucements see Sagat and G being announced for Street Fighter V, followed by a long 'this is how you play these characters' video showcasing how to space with them, what the usage of their certain moves are etc.

Yet this really destroys a sense of discovery and experimentation. Take Urien from Street Fighter 3: Third Strike for example. The guy had a shield intended to reflect projectiles and wasn't meant to have combos, being more a slow 'poke'r '. Instead people discovered Charge-Partitioning, which allowed for insane juggles and combos, and found out they could use the vanity super Aegis Reflector to set up enemies for extreme pressure and sick combos. It was an accident.
Now, in Street Fighter V, Urien is completely designed around this.
When people started playing Ken in a way that wasn't intended, he got changed. When people start doing certain combos that were not intended, they are removed.

You also see this more with regular games, where even games like Nioh and God of War get changes added to them to 'set us on the correct path' again because we used their mechanics in ways they didn't expect, and they did not like it.

What are your opinions on this? Have you noticed this too?

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Birdman


Moderator
'this is how you play these characters'
Is this a fighting game thing? I haven't played any recent fighting games. Are you saying the devs are releasing their own tutorial vids trying to herd up into a certain playstyle? Or is it casual appeal, trying to show them the basics of the character so they don't cry and give up?

I can't speak on the rest as I don't know jackshit about SF.

where even games like Nioh and God of War get changes added to them to 'set us on the correct path' again
'Herding' we'll call it vs nerfs. GoW looked like herding, forcing you to play a certain way by removing options, where Nioh looks like more nerfs due to pvp and stuff. I see some overlap with these terms though.


Nadster


C-Rank
I don't like having to do only one option. Especially if it happens to be very cryptic.

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Damn this topic got burried back then haha, but yeah I really just wish this sense of exploration in mechanics and that it also allowed it. Current Sekiro is a prime example, not offering a lot of experimentation or tests. If an oponnent sweeps...you jump, that's it. You can High Monk which has a jump inside it, but that's it. Thrust? You Mikiri, nothing else. Instead of designing a game, or move, with the idea that X responds to Y, just make a lot of X's and Y's and see how they interact (see also: Ninja Gaiden, praised be its name).

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Infinity_Divide


C-Rank
Yeah Sekiro is a pretty good example of how...not to do experimentation. There really isn’t much, and I think what is there is just incredibly random. Okami warriors are weak to the poison knife. Alright, why is that, when none of the other similar enemies have a similar weakness? Why does the axe obliterate a shield but do next to nothing against flesh? It’s not even really experimenting in this game as much as it is just guessing.

More and more I’ve become a huge fan of multi-use tools in games. NG is a great example as always, each weapon can carry you for an entire playthrough and can tear through any enemy as long as you know what you’re doing. One I reason I grew to love DMC5 is the complex tools and the constant “I bet this works...oh nice, it does work!”. The amount of stuff to find hidden in the game’s tools is pretty phenomenal imo.

This is why I’ve been playing so many older games and random classics. You really don’t get experimentation and discovery out of a lot of new “AAA” games.

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
I think this is due to something I've recently stumbled upon called "jank". Recently Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid got released and it's a mess, but everyone loves it, because there's so much to toy around with. The systems have no ryme or reason, things just happen, things clip through each-other, it is nuts.

I mean, aside from being a novel addition, jump canceling was never intended the way we're using it. That's jank, that's cool stuff. Just something unexpected that takes a life of its own. I don't see that happening in titles like Sekiro. Last game I really felt I could experiment with and get things like "wait...that works" was probably a PS2 game I played recently haha!

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hedfone

hedfone
C-Rank
I will praise them again, the kings field and shadow tower games are top tier janky in the best way.
You guys have got to play that series, I think there are like 4 people I have seen that enjoy them lol. But like I said, JANKY.

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Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
The problem for me is that getting a legit copy that works and that I can understand, can be difficult. Sony doesn't really like Europe, or at least doesn't prioritize it.

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hedfone

hedfone
C-Rank
True. I bought a complete psx copy of shadow tower for like $20 back in the day, now it goes for like $100.
I know you aren't big on emulating, but 4 works great on pcsx2. And shadow tower abyss has to pretty much be emulated for english. You can get the English patched iso, it's all super easy.
Shadow tower psx was on psn for ps3 i believe, not sure if it's on the European stores though. Whatever the trouble, it is worth it, i would put those games above everything from except Dark souls 1 and demon's souls. KF 4 and Abyss are basically Demon's Souls in first person.
Mmm soo good. Also if you emulate you can put look on right stick which is huge for playability.

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5does


D-Rank
Developers are too busy regarding the reception of the mainstream reviewers and the general mass of players who thinks single players need to be "balanced". This ends up creating a generation of games that lacks fun janky mechanics, games with actual depth and weird interactions or tech are really rare on consoles nowadays.

>SF5
I think fighting games got hit the hardest thanks to all the e-sport shilling when compared to other genres, I feel like there's not enough time now to let people develop tech with all the constant patches not to mention how simpler they've gotten, even my old favorite fighting game series Guilty Gear suffered from the transition to the E-sports era and the 3d games don't feel nearly as deep as the 2d ones were.

Your closest bet to find this kind of stuff is probably indie games since the developers usually care way less about public reception and more about realizing their view.

Royta/Raeng

Royta/Raeng
Admin
Yeah, not sure if you've noticed but the recent Power Rangers fighter is getting a lot of love since it's basically just a set of characters with bonkers moves and have fun. So many weird combos and setups, people are eating it up. But e-sports shilling really is a problem.

It's a boring example still, but instead of having people learn to deal with a match-up or problem, just wait and whine for a patch.

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