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Bayonetta 2 (WiiU)

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1 Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 1:54 am

Birdman


Moderator
Found this in a bargain bin yesterday. Barely touched it in the past and I've heard mixed opinions when comparing it to the first game. What's your view?

Edit: Just watched this. Explains it pretty well. I agree with some points, while with others I partly agree.


Edit: I've been watching videos about the flaws in this game and found this video interesting.


I really don't find enemies having a way out of what would be infinite combos to be a bad thing. And this is coming from a huge fan of Bayo 1. A lot of games I already play have enemies that can deal with such things. I wonder if people would say the same about Bayo 2 if this was actually the first and only game? It seems these are issues only when compared to the first game.

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2 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 10:14 am

It can get quite annoying to find an opening only to have it taken away from you by the will of the game, this way it promotes you using quick bursty combos or ranged spam; neither of which are interesting. My personal biggest gripe with the game is that Witch Time is now at the center stage. While in the original it was a crutch to lean on for new comers with the highest difficulty taking it away, here every foe is designed around it and it is never taken away. Most later enemies are nearly impossible to hit outside of it from what I recall and really feel built around "trigger WT, punish, dodge a bit, trigger WT, repeat". 

On all other levels though, it is the superior title. The levels are nicer, look nicer, gameplay is smooth, tons of unlockables (all new content and all old content is in it too (old costumes, old weapons)). It is just the trend of better and more stuff. Online Co-op is a blast as well, had a lot of fun playing that.
Balance is heavily lacking at times, which isn't that bad, though the Freeze > Chainsaw combo didn't get a lot of thought I feel; it wreck nearly everything. Rosa is pretty insane as well and the Rodin-weapon is just bonkers broken, having a single move that makes you really hard to hit, deals high damage and high stylepoints. Some other gripes is that the menu gets clunky, especially with sooooooooo many weapons, making switching and experimentation a chore.

Overall, great action title.

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3 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 10:30 am

Birdman


Moderator
It can get quite annoying to find an opening only to have it taken away from you by the will of the game
I often heard it described in such a way that it seems totally random, but the video shows that it does have rules and there are ways like just not throwing out multiple hits, getting behind, and of course WT. It seems no hugely different from Knack 2 and TF.

Knack 2 enemies have parries or guards they can bring up and throw you off, and TF enemies (at least on harder modes though mostly bosses) can parry whenever. I never saw any pattern to them. At least in Knack 2 you get a feel that they're going to do it, and not all enemies can anyway.

here every foe is designed around it and it is never taken away.
I don't see this as any difference from TF, which never takes focus away. Though TF enemies are still susceptible to everything without it.

I do get the complaints though. I just feel that they only exist because the first game exists. What if Bayo 2 was the only Bayo game? What if we just pretend that for the sake of discussion and look at it as its own thing? I feel the same about NG3 RE (hell even just 3) even though I never played the NG series. I've only looked at videos but I find a lot of hate comes from comparing to previous entries and not how a game stands on its own.



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4 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 10:54 am

Careful there, I can easily put down a lot of reasons why NG3 and NG3:RE have issues that aren't related to the series; they were badly received by pretty much the whole world for a reason. NG3 is probably one of the worst games I played the last generation, full stop. God of Four is 10x the better game, and you know how much that means coming from me. It really is abysmal.

From bad enemy ai, a not thought out Steel on Bone mechanic (that was never explained and only one person in the WORLD understood), input delay and input drops, unresponsive controls, one note gameplay (just wave after wave after wave), said one note gameplay gets really boring thanks to there being only one weapon, very annoying enemy types, bad healing system (allowing you to get stuck forever, forcing a campaign restart), bad camera, off screen instantkills, laggy co-op that exists purely out of spamming bosses at you and older enemies that were designed around mechanics that no longer exist, QTE's everywhere, a trial and error final boss riddled with glitches, auto-dodge happy AI, Move Support, no exploration or anything else to do besides fight fight fight, auto dodge happy bosses that force you to spam a cheese tactic for 8+ minutes, eventually released DLC weapons absolutely BREAK the game, bow was way too good once at level 3, bosses in general a let down, most being generic trial and error fights with unmarked QTE finishers (you have not witnessed bad boss design until you've faced the T-rex), pointless shuriken weapon.

All that is just based on it as a stand alone game. If I were to compare it I'd also call out the lack of Scarab collectibles, weapon variation would get more hate, the lack of the G-throw, basically all Ryu's platforming skills missing, lack of interesting enemies would get more hate etc. But hey...we got to see him without his mask and be all 'emotional' and have a daughter and a wife (sort of).

Razor's Edge is a pig with lipstick. It is a lot better, but still horrible in a sense.

About the Witch Time, it is mostly an annoyance for me since it forces a big 'dodge first, kick ass later' methodology on you. Later fights, bosses etc. can only be fought in Witch Time pretty much, which is just sad. Takes a way a lot of the fun.

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5 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 11:16 am

Birdman


Moderator
God of Four is 10x the better game,
Ok, if you put it like THAT.

But that big list of negatives is actually what I'm after in these cases, so long as they are based on judging the game stand alone. Notice I didn't praise them, just that I could never get an opinion that wasn't based on previous entries.

Witch time
While I don't mind the mechanic, I agree with your view there. I kinda hope Bayo 3 doesn't have it.

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6 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 2:42 pm

Don't worry, I got the gist. Ninja Gaiden Razor's Edge is a lot better though, far above God of Four. It is really impressive just what they managed to do with the title. To note, NG3 was the God of Four of the series. It emphasized story over gameplay, they really wanted to focus on the cinematic market in the west, they even said this themselves. As such Ryu has a lot of walky talky segments, a codec (no joke), qte's, tons of cutscenes in between gameplay and only one weapon because it plays a part in the story. In the end what you've got is a Ninja Gaiden game without the combat polish, only one weapon (with less moves than originally in other games of the series) and tons and tons of cinematic crap. Add to that a Team Deathmatch and Capture the Flag multiplayer ... yeah. Team Ninja really learned from their failure with Nioh.

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7 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sat May 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Birdman


Moderator
this way it promotes you using quick bursty combos or ranged spam; neither of which are interesting.
I don't see an issue with this unless again, you're comparing to Bayo 1.

It isn't really that different than most games I play outside of Bayo 1 and DMC3. Those are the only two games I play where you can go combo crazy. The rest are about either shutting shit down as fast as possible, or combos are generally shorter due to the enemies being able to do something about it.

I don't want to speak out of turn here, but NG, based on what I've seen from high level videos on the highest difficulty, seems like the same idea. That is, using short attack bursts. The reason why definitely seems different. You always have another enemy coming after you where in Bayo 2 it's the enemy doing a combo breaker. Just an observation so please correct me if I'm wrong.

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8 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sun May 27, 2018 8:49 am

Except, one big difference, Ninja Gaiden isn't built around combos. It doesn't rate you based on your combo-string and combo meters, this game does. It actively dis-encourages what it promotes, which is really weird; that's a problem with the game, not with it being compared to the series. Add to the fact that, as a series, Bayonetta always had the PKP problem of short strings being way too good, and that just adds up.

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9 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Sun May 27, 2018 11:07 pm

Birdman


Moderator
It doesn't rate you based on your combo-string and combo meters, this game does. It actively dis-encourages what it promotes, which is really weird; that's a problem with the game, not with it being compared to the series.
I don't think this is necessarily a problem with the game though. It is weird that they included a combo meter then make it hard to do long combos, but according to the video, the meter works differently anyway which higher damage attacks gaining more points.

At a glance, it appears to actually be promoting shorter strings until you can get WT and do something a little more extensive, or finding a way to an enemy's back where they can't parry. Relaunching over and over isn't possible, and Wicked Weaves seems to do less damage/knockback/stun than Bayo 1.

In Chaos Legion, there is a pointless combo counter. In a way the game discourages such a thing as well, due to enemy weaknesses and and the goal of getting threats off the screen as fast and efficiently as possible. The combo counter goes up just from hitting stuff, with no reward. It's like they were just trying to ride on DMC's success and threw it in there.

My point is I don't think we need to think anything just because a feature is present. It really seems like they threw the combo meter in 'just cuz'.

Did the devs ever say anything on why they changed all this stuff? It wasn't made by the same people right?

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10 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Mon May 28, 2018 10:50 am

I don't think they ever really noted why they changed it, the team was mostly the same though just with Kamiya being absent. Inaba worked on it personally which is always great, he's easily one of my favorite developers, the guy's record is nearly spotless (God Hand, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, Vanquish, DMC, W101, MGR:R).

In terms of combo-breaker, I don't know it just seems like such a weird mechanic and not thought out. The idea is that you don't want players to infinitely juggle foes, which limits (or focuses) player creativity in combos. Except when done from behind it doesn't work, and it is enemy specific and only after a set amount of hits without pause. I don't know, it feels like it was shoved in at the last second instead of a core mechanic of the game.

Combo Counters and having your whole ranking system be built around it is different though. God of War has a combo counter too, as does Metal Gear Rising, and they are pointless. MGR:R's is just about how much hits you deal and you have to reach a certain number for an S-rank - but that's it. Here, if you don't get your score multiplier up, you can cry your PP-rank goodbye. A combobreaker also staggers you, making it easy for the meter to run dry.

I disagree they just put the combo meter in there 'just cuz', since it's such an integeral part of the series and also just the singular game as a whole. The whole combat is made around flexibility and making your own combos (even going as far as on the fly setup switches DMC4 style). Enemies take slight bonus damage in the air if I recall.

Again I'm not saying the ComboBreaker mechanic is dumb, but I am saying they just threw it in without thinking of the concequences and without actually thinking it through. Right now it barely works, and just leads to boring play barely using the mechanics, or at worst turns the game into PKP until WT hits.

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11 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Tue May 29, 2018 12:45 am

Birdman


Moderator
Again I'm not saying the ComboBreaker mechanic is dumb, but I am saying they just threw it in without thinking of the concequences and without actually thinking it through.
Yeah this is why I said 'just cuz'. There are all these combo mechanics yet the game's only wish is the thwart their use.

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12 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:09 pm

AKheon


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Since I got Wii U, I've been replaying this game on Hard-difficulty. I just love the core gameplay of the series - being able to equip two weapons at once and experimenting with different weapon combinations, etc. It's just majestic.

Parts of the game do feel a little bit cheap around the edges otherwise? Sometimes it feels like there's way too much non-animated cutscene. The combat can also get really messy sometimes, especially with the increasingly explosive background set pieces. It's almost guesswork when you have to dodge in the fight vs Lumen Sage since there's so much going on on the screen.

Still really enjoyable, though.

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13 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:27 am

Yeah it really is fun to play, I also have to note just how darn colorful the game is compared to the drab brown/grey/brown of the original. The over the top visuals do get in the way I agree, the first fight with Lumen is especially bad. Also not a fan of making Lumen and Robin exclusively playable in the co-op. Really liked the co-op though, fun system that also benefitted the singleplayer (Halos).

The story..yeah. I remember the first also having this problem. Than again, I'd rather they do it like this than commit tons of gameplay resources to cutscenes.

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14 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:56 pm

AKheon


D-Rank
Yeah, that's a good point about resources. The story tends to be bizarre fluff in this series anyway, so some cheap looking cutscenes aren't such a great loss... Gameplay is king.

I finished Hard-mode and I think I've now acquired most of the weapons in the game. I guess Rodin is still gonna take a while to unlock...

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15 Re: Bayonetta 2 (WiiU) on Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:01 pm

Rodin takes a while to unlock, but once you unlock the third hidden character you can nuke him pretty easily. Note that Bayo2 does not penalize you for using items, so you can spam away.

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